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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 12
Sue Pergirl #881880 12/18/15 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by He Who Wanders
Thanks, Lardy.
In general, I feel it might be distracting if we review two different ongoing series in the same thread, but, again, it depends on how much there is to say about KK.


I was thinking that the little paragraph would be fun for curiosity's sake. But it looks as though there's certainly enough interest for a thread, if you'd like to start one.

Originally Posted by the Hermit
I do, oddly enough, have the Kamandi crossover issue, which is parked between S/LSH 241 and 242 in one of my Legion boxes.


Yay! Consider yourself booked for that review Hermit smile
I don't have that one, and haven't looked far enough ahead in my binders to know to look for it on E-Bay.

Originally Posted by the Hermit
Joe Orlando... edited mostly non-superhero books like Anthro, Bat Lash, Weird War Tales and Adventure (in its short post-Supergirl run as an anthology title.

As superheroes took over the entire comics industry, people like Orlando, whose strengths lay in other genres, found themselves shunted aside by the powers that be.


Thanks a lot for that, Hermit. Personally, I think that the loss of writers with differing writing experiences and broader, richer backgrounds in both life and reading, has played it's part in the huge difference in quality between DC's writing now and then.

Originally Posted by Sue Pergirl
Can I can be a little off topic? I don’t have a large enough comic collection to really participate in a Legion archives re-read,


I'd love to see more of this in the re-reads, so please don't think for a second it's off topic. Anything that sparks off any opinion or connection to the characters or stories is great to see. I don't know a thing about the Legion cartoons, so seeing a new relationship established between Val and Hart was all new to me and really interesting.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 12
Cobalt Kid #881883 12/18/15 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Cobalt Kid
Sue, very interesting commentary. I've never seen these episodes of the cartoon and now I want to very much! I love the KK / NK dynamic, and this sounds like someone took that and really spent some time developing it into something substantial.


Good luck finding it. As far as I know, Warner has never released LSH season 2 in any form. You might be able to find pirated video somewhere, but Warner is pretty good about scrubbing that too.



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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 12
thoth lad #881900 12/18/15 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by thoth lad


I was thinking that the little paragraph would be fun for curiosity's sake. But it looks as though there's certainly enough interest for a thread, if you'd like to start one.


Great. I'll launch the thread in the next day or two.


Last edited by He Who Wanders; 12/18/15 02:33 PM.

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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 12
thoth lad #882306 12/22/15 11:36 AM
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Superboy 216

[Linked Image]

Strong words on the cover from the man we will soon know as Tyroc. “Slaughtered” doesn’t sound as though he’s going to take to the Legion code against killing. “Despise” is a very strong word to use against anyone. He must really hate the very principles of the Legion. Let’s see…

The splash page shows the Legion, who are flying towards Tyroc, now flying away. They wonder why he hates them, as they were just about to offer him membership in the group.

The plot is a variation on Ice Station Zebra. A satellite, here containing jewels, rather than top secret photographs, has crashed on the island of Marzal. Both the Legion and a group called the Betas are out to get those jewels. But they must face a hostile environment to achieve their goal.

The people of Marzal dislike the Legion. Whenever they’ve had a crisis, they feel that the legion has been elsewhere. Their champion, Tyroc, feels that there’s a reason for this and asks his people to consider it. Tyroc is seemingly as bloodthirsty as the cover suggests as he causes crooks to plummet form the sky. The payoff is that this hero with unknown powers saves them in a unique way a panel later. It was good seeing the Legion react to something new.

Tyroc tells his people not to trust the Legion in a message that he goes to great lengths to tell us is pre-recorded. That’s because he has actually infiltrated the Betas. The crooks are the first to the satellite, only to fall victim to the cosmic radiation it has been saturated by. The Legion come to the rescue, thanks to Tyroc being able to contact Superboy ultrasonically.

Having seen the Legion save both himself and his city, Tyroc realises that his views have been misguided. The Legion offer him membership, and Tyroc accepts.

So, that’s the story. It’s fairly straightforward. Bates dodges a few plot killers. The space faring Legion can’t just collect the satellite from orbit, because 1) it crashed three days ago and 2) they’ve only just learned of its existence. Cosmic Boy’s source in unnamed (and gives him interesting links to criminal networks), but his deathbed voice is loud enough that it presumably alerted the Betas too.

The Legion don’t just whisk around the island to collect the satellite because they know they are not welcome, don’t know where it is exactly and get distracted by falling bridges and pre-recorded programming. Presumably Superboy is more careful about the first point, to rely on Brainy and not his own powers.

Tyroc’s powers seem ill defined and overly powerful. A legionnaire who can teleport could be useful. One with force fields replicates Brainy and one who can hurl ships into orbit mirrors a number of Legionnaires. The sonic cries look a bit odd in the comic, and nowhere near as well executed as Black Canary’s sonic cry for example. But then, Wildfire’s first few panels had him replicate the entire Legion, so Tyroc is actually an improvement, power wise, on that first impression. Another plus is that Tyroc is already a champion of Marzal. Like Shadow Lass he’s arrives in the Legion with lots of experience. Later, we’d see Dawnstar, Invisible Kid, Blok and the White Witch join and their lack of training was noticeable.

His costume is quite outlandish. Mike Grell said he gave him it as part of distancing himself from the character. But in the years where we had Cosmic Boy’s bustier, and Imra’s bikini, it doesn’t stand out as much as it would in other eras.

A final plus note on the comic is that the Betas look quite cool as a streamlined heist outfit.

Of course, the above hasn’t really touched on the themes of the story, and it’s those that completely torpedo it. Everyone of Marzal is black. Everyone on Marzal is black, because it’s a separatist black society. They want nothing to do with the outside world. At the same time, they feel abandoned enough by it to show hatred towards the comic’s heroes and the world outside.

While the venom is at its direct worst on the cover and splash page, seeing Tyroc tell the island’s inhabitants that the Legion could be racist is a low point.

It’s another disastrous attempt at race relations from DC, who would have given us The Black Bomber or the aborted attempt at Joshua in the Teen Titans among other things.

Sadly, I think they felt they had found a solution to continuing to have no black characters in their Legion stories. It’s because all the black people live on an island. So, we acknowledge different races, but we don’t have to see them and we won’t get any letters from distributors from the South (which is an excuse I’ve heard a couple of times). It’s as pathetic as that. There’s the argument that they could have just written Tyroc out at the end of this story. But, as we’ll see, he wasn’t exactly used frequently after this anyway.

Tyroc’s personality is defined as an angry black man. He can’t just be a character who happens to be black, the same way Superboy is white. He can’t have a thought that’s independent of his skin colour. No, everything he does has to be reflected through his being black. Not only that, but reflected through someone who is angry and prejudiced, while seeing that very fault in others. I’ve really no idea why comic writers have this giant blind spot when it comes to this.

The writer picks out the Legion’s special race relations away team for this issue, just so it can assure Tyroc that there’s no racism in the book. Karate Kid, formerly white, now of mixed heritage partly (mostly) due to the popularity of martial arts movies. Brainiac 5, because being green shows the all-embracing nature of DC. Shadow Lass, because blue people will win anyone over who wasn’t convinced by green people. I imagine they deleted the thought bubble where she says “I was supposed to be black, but DC changed it. Just ask Dvron.”

In summary, it’s a straight forward short story that introduces us to a new hero. But the story is completely overshadowed by the way in which the character was introduced. It’s no wonder that so many writers would distance themselves from Tyroc, although it’s an approach I’m not sure works for the best. Rubbish, offensive origin aside, seeing Tyroc established as every bit the hero as anyone else may have been another way to go.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 12
thoth lad #882360 12/22/15 02:28 PM
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216/The Hero Who Hated the Legion

I have lots of mixed feelings on this one. I agree with everything thoth wrote above, and with the general consensus that the introduction of the first black Legionnaire was misguided at best and racist at worst. But it's hard for me to separate these conclusions--which I arrived at only much later--with my initial feelings of the story.

There's almost a Star Trek sensibility in this story about a future that will be free from prejudice and racial division. In order to drive this point home, Star Trek introduced a number of aliens (such as the Charons) who were racist to point out how much humans would evolve. I felt that this story was intended along the same lines. In order to show future society as free from racism, you have to contrast it with a society that is racist. It's just a shame that Bates and company chose members of a real race--one which was battling real bigotry and discrimination in the 1970s--to be his "unenlightened" people.

I also think Bates was trying to tap into the "relevance" Shooter had introduced in his Legion stories, e.g., the Vietnam War and PTSD. But whereas Shooter had a deft and sensitive touch in addressing such matters, Bates' attempt to extrapolate race relations into the 30th century is clunky and naive. In a way, however, this story does tap into the real fears and anxieties of the times expressed by both whites and blacks. Black separatism was not a new concept--Malcolm X (who had died a mere 10 years before this story was published) championed such a movement, as did Louis Farrakhan. The Black Panther movement appeared threatening to some whites. So, in a way, Bates took this idea and speculated where it might lead--a strategy common to science fiction.

The fault may lie in the fact that no black characters were represented in Legion stories before this, so 216 gives the impression that ALL people of African descent must have moved to Marzal (and some fans on this board have suggested this interpretation). Bates--if DC had let him--could have counteracted this impression by introducing a dark-skinned government minister (we've already seen the president) to send the Legion on its mission instead of relying on Cosmic Boy's report of a deathbed confession. Such a character would have given us a "positive" or "neutral" representation of a person of color to balance the antagonistic positions Tyroc and the Marzallians were required to play.

Another missed cue occurs when Superboy and Karate Kid save a group of Marzallians from the collapsing sidewalk. Their antagonism towards their rescuers furthers the plot, but it would be nice if at least one of them had whispered "Thank you"--just so we don't get the impression that all black people have been brainwashed.

(As an aside, I just listened to a report on NPR about a Syrian refugee who has settled in Germany. He recounted that a German man approached him in a shop and told him to go back to his country and fight. Five minutes later, another man came up to him and said, "Don't listen to him! You're a nice guy." The Syrian was amused in telling this story, which shows how different people react to "strangers" and that not everyone should be stereotyped as behaving the same way.)

It might have been clunky to include such scenes in this short story, but, when one is dealing with sensitive issues such as race, a little extra foresight may be necessary.

One subtle touch which I think works reasonably well, however, is the ambiguous nature of Marzal's separation from the rest of Earth society. We aren't told the reasons for this separation, but the tour guide (page 4) seems to have a different take than Tyroc does (page 7). The tour guide states Marzal "wants nothing to do with the outside world" whereas Tyroc finds fault with the Legion for not helping Marzal through several crises (which suggests Marzal would have been receptive to such aid). Who's telling the truth? Or are these different interpretations of the same events? Given how rhetoric is regularly spun and twisted by politicians and the media, it's easy to see how both the tour guide and Tyroc may think they're right.

As for Tyroc himself, he seems almost an afterthought in this story. Though he plays a significant role, I learn nothing about him, and I don't know why he suddenly changes his mind and sees the error of his way at the end. He is not really a character, just a type--and a very flat one at that.





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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 12
thoth lad #882361 12/22/15 03:08 PM
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216/1+1=3

In this backup story, also by Bates, we catch up with the former Bouncing Boy and Duo Damsel. While walking through a park, they are accosted by members of a gang who want to settle the score with Chuck for putting them in prison while he was a Legionnaire.

The non-powered Chuck is easily made to look like a fool by the thugs, but Lu comes to his rescue and drives them off. Is Chuck grateful? No, he's upset that his masculinity has been threatened by his wife and he feels symbolically castrated now that he no longer has a power.

Okay, the story doesn't use that language, but it's interesting how it equates having a super-power with masculinity, particularly given Chuck's former ability to, er, inflate himself.

Demonstrating more maturity than her husband, Lu listens to him whine and points out he still has the courage that made him a Legionnaire. Then she conveniently passes out from a drug administered by one of the gang members during their fight. This gives Chuck a chance to redeem himself--though Lu gets another shot at the thugs, as well.

It's a simple story and not a terribly important, but I think it honestly expresses certain dynamics of male-female relationships. Even today, a lot of men believe it is their role to protect women (just ask some of my military students who oppose women in combat for this reason). Chuck, it must also be remembered, has lost his super-power. In the Legion's world, that's tantamount to being a cripple. All of Chuck's friends have powers, as does his wife. It would naturally be a blow to his self-esteem to realize he can no longer hold his own against common thugs.

But Chuck once again uses his wits to win the day, as he did back in 199. Instead of a sneeze this time, he uses rubber balls (heh, another masculine motif) to demonstrate his knowledge of ricochet and trajectory.

The best part about this story, though, is that Chuck and Lu defeat the bad guys together. Lu's role, in fact, makes clever use of her power to deceive others (even her husband) into thinking she is one girl instead of two.

So teamwork at last wins the day in a Legion story, and a marriage is saved!


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 12
He Who Wanders #882362 12/22/15 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by He Who Wanders
Originally Posted by thoth lad


I was thinking that the little paragraph would be fun for curiosity's sake. But it looks as though there's certainly enough interest for a thread, if you'd like to start one.


Great. I'll launch the thread in the next day or two.



By the way, I haven't forgotten this, but real life has intervened. I'll try to launch the thread this weekend. (I know everybody's waiting with bated breath--or Bates's breath?)


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 12
thoth lad #882442 12/23/15 09:13 AM
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I may be a week late on this one...not sure when I'll get a chance to even read the issue let alone review it. The build-up to Christmas this year, with my kids ages 4 & 5, has more tension that even the best Hitchcock films. Things are reaching a fever pitch. It's been so much fun.

This also means that I'll probably be in such a good mood when I do read it that I'll end up giving Tyroc every benefit of the doubt. smile

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 12
thoth lad #882468 12/23/15 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by He Who Wanders
But it's hard for me to separate these conclusions--which I arrived at only much later--with my initial feelings of the story.


When I first read this issue, I was very aware of the heavy handedness of it. I get the same feeling from nearly every attempt from the big two at tackling social or racial issues. Like yourself, I’m there to read, and hopefully enjoy, the story. But these comics range from forced and preaching at best to downright racist/patronising and supporting the very thing they’re set up to highlight, at worst.

So, I start the issue looking to enjoy it. But the heavy handed theme is always evident early on, and that makes me question it. So, the story and the context are always closely linked, if not simultaneous.

Originally Posted by He Who Wanders
In order to show future society as free from racism, you have to contrast it with a society that is racist.


Personally, I think that this approach from the big 2 can be flawed partly due to the context in which the story takes place. The society that they are desperate to tell us isn’t racist, doesn’t have anywhere close to the multi-ethnic population to make the premise viable. By highlighting racial issues in a single issue, all it does is draw attention to the absence of multiculturalism in all the other issues.

For me, the best way to show that your society is multicultural is, oddly enough, to show that your society is multicultural. People of all shapes, sizes, colours, beliefs as the artist wants to put in. There’s enough aliens in the backgrounds after all. You can pick whoever you like to focus on from there, as there will be good and bad in all groups, as long as there’s no overall bias.

HWW mentions some real examples of separatist movements. Imagine a firmly installed Tyroc, involved in that story somewhere down the road. Perhaps that would have been the chance to have a Star Trek race as a proxy. It shouldn’t have to involve Tyroc directly just because he’s black. But because he’s a Legionnaire, and one who has been around in any number of other stories. Ideally, there would be no need to include him at all, especially in an issue about race.

But [ALERT!: nearly 40 year old spoiler!] we know that Tyroc makes very rare appearances following this story. Now that may well be due to people wanting to distance themselves from the character and his dreadful origin story. But I’ve always felt that it just reinforced the idea that DC had a problem with race. The company that can’t help but hardboot, softboot and retcon, often before Crisis, couldn’t find a way to make more use of Tyroc? Really? It’s something I have difficulty believing. I’ve had trouble with that, ever since I first knew of Tyroc and a little of his background.

Originally Posted by He Who Wanders
As for Tyroc himself, he seems almost an afterthought in this story. Though he plays a significant role, I learn nothing about him, and I don't know why he suddenly changes his mind and sees the error of his way at the end. He is not really a character, just a type--and a very flat one at that.


He’s certainly the main character, and the hero of his people. He infiltrates the Betas and uses his powers cleverly to alert Superboy. I think he sees the error of his ways by watching the Legion save people from the radioactive satellite. I think he may also have been nearby when they saved people form that falling bridge. That would be interesting, if he chose to stay undercover to help stop the villains. So, I learned that he’s capable, smart, powerful and able to change strongly held opinions that he wasn’t shy about expressing. I prefer that to thinking about the angry, black stereotype that’s also very much in there.

EDIT: Twice I've forgotten to mention. Why do the Beta's have Caucasian masks? It allows Tyroc to infiltrate them, but why would the group have them at all? It can't be disguise because they also have helmets.



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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 12
thoth lad #882498 12/23/15 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by thoth lad

But these comics range from forced and preaching at best to downright racist/patronising and supporting the very thing they’re set up to highlight, at worst.


Yeah, that's a real problem when writers/companies don't know what they're doing or are doing it for reasons they don't fully understand. I think the notion of DC as a conservative company holds true. They were out of touch even by 1975 standards. Marvel had had black heroes (The Black Panther) and supporting characters (Bill Foster) for years, but generally did not make a big deal of it, except for the misguided stereotype of Luke Cage as a street tough. DC made a big deal out of the first black Legionnaire, but it shouldn't have been that big of an issue in '75.

Quote

Originally Posted by He Who Wanders
In order to show future society as free from racism, you have to contrast it with a society that is racist.


Personally, I think that this approach from the big 2 can be flawed partly due to the context in which the story takes place. The society that they are desperate to tell us isn’t racist, doesn’t have anywhere close to the multi-ethnic population to make the premise viable. By highlighting racial issues in a single issue, all it does is draw attention to the absence of multiculturalism in all the other issues.


Yes, and Star Trek had problems with this as well. The crew of the Enterprise was definitely multicultural, but some of the story lines were pro-American to the point of being jingoistic ("The Omega Glory"): to show America as being great, you have to show other cultures as being less great.

In fact, the example of an "unenlightened" society I mentioned, the Charons (from "Let that Be Your Last Battlefield"), very obviously had half black and half white faces, just in case you missed the metaphor.

Of course, TV was still struggling with the notion that it had to dumb down stories for a mass audience. I imagine DC operated under much the same mindset.

Quote
For me, the best way to show that your society is multicultural is, oddly enough, to show that your society is multicultural. People of all shapes, sizes, colours, beliefs as the artist wants to put in. There’s enough aliens in the backgrounds after all. You can pick whoever you like to focus on from there, as there will be good and bad in all groups, as long as there’s no overall bias.


Agreed. Star Trek finally got this right with The Next Generation. I think the Legion got it right under Levitz/Giffen.

Quote
HWW mentions some real examples of separatist movements. Imagine a firmly installed Tyroc, involved in that story somewhere down the road. Perhaps that would have been the chance to have a Star Trek race as a proxy. It shouldn’t have to involve Tyroc directly just because he’s black. But because he’s a Legionnaire, and one who has been around in any number of other stories. Ideally, there would be no need to include him at all, especially in an issue about race.


There were so many ways Tyroc could have been used to great effect. Let's accept the idea that Marzal wants nothing to do with the rest of Earth society. Now they've got a hero who has joined the very organization they hate. What does that do to them? What does it do to him?

One LSH issue somewhere mentioned that Tyroc was trying to drag Marzal into mainstream society. It would have been great to see more of that struggle. Tyroc was caught between two worlds long before the Brigadoon excuse to get rid of him. He had seen potential in the Legion, which had broadened his views and aspirations. It would have been interesting to see him try to bring that potential to his island.


Quote
Originally Posted by He Who Wanders
As for Tyroc himself, he seems almost an afterthought in this story. Though he plays a significant role, I learn nothing about him, and I don't know why he suddenly changes his mind and sees the error of his way at the end. He is not really a character, just a type--and a very flat one at that.


He’s certainly the main character, and the hero of his people. He infiltrates the Betas and uses his powers cleverly to alert Superboy. I think he sees the error of his ways by watching the Legion save people from the radioactive satellite. I think he may also have been nearby when they saved people form that falling bridge. That would be interesting, if he chose to stay undercover to help stop the villains. So, I learned that he’s capable, smart, powerful and able to change strongly held opinions that he wasn’t shy about expressing.


I sort of expect those attributes in any Legion-quality candidate. smile

To me, though, he remains a cipher: someone we learn little about and who behaves in ways dictated by the plot.

Quote
I prefer that to thinking about the angry, black stereotype that’s also very much in there.


I do, too. I think we get a much better view of Tyroc in his next appearance, 218.

Quote
EDIT: Twice I've forgotten to mention. Why do the Beta's have Caucasian masks? It allows Tyroc to infiltrate them, but why would the group have them at all? It can't be disguise because they also have helmets.



My sense of it was that the Betas did not wear Caucasian masks. Only Tyroc wore one to impersonate the Beta he had captured.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 12
He Who Wanders #882509 12/24/15 01:20 AM
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Originally Posted by He Who Wanders
... and supporting characters (Bill Foster) for years, but generally did not make a big deal of it,


I read the issue of Civil War when they [Spoiler alert for a series that wasn't very good] killed him. It just seemed so...pointless.

Originally Posted by He Who Wanders
...except for the misguided stereotype of Luke Cage as a street tough.


That could be an example of someone with a poor origin, that's transcended it. I say "could be" because I've no real idea what they did with him. But he's certainly got a lot more panel time than Tyroc ever did. But you're right in that Cage is another example of a character whose origins can't escape the misguided views of the comics companies.

We could have had a normal superhero, who happens to be black.

"Luke Cage: A doctor who sees the effects of Hydra's criminal takeover on his city, and decides to do something about it."

"Luke Cage: A scientist who extends Richard's dimensional theories, becoming embued with super powers."

"Luke Cage: The mail man who delivers to all those secret hideouts, and whose mystical recorded delivery activates."

But no, we have Blaxploitation Luke Cage gets convicted of a crime and who's a street level brawler for hire, in a world where superheroes stand for unpaid altruism.

It’s not that a hero for hire isn’t an interesting idea. It’s not that the hero for hire couldn’t be black or anything else. It’s that slight disconnect between story and what’s underneath it. The story might have interesting plot points, but it’s ruined by everything around it. Also see Vibe.

Originally Posted by He Who Wanders
Yes, and Star Trek had problems with this as well. The crew of the Enterprise was definitely multicultural, but some of the story lines were pro-American to the point of being jingoistic ("The Omega Glory"): to show America as being great, you have to show other cultures as being less great.


Yeah, that must have been a shock when the Federation really came to town and found the locals a little less than friendly.

Other comics examples are Hitting Batman, where the main character validates themselves by punching the Dark Knight.


Originally Posted by He Who Wanders
Agreed. Star Trek finally got this right with The Next Generation. I think the Legion got it right under Levitz/Giffen.


Both with such large scope that you can really enjoy showing off different cultural ideas. On the other hand, I don’t think advertising has ever got past having to have a quota of certain people for their campaigns. “One (but only one) from this ethnic group, one (and only one) from that, one from that gender, one from...gah! Where’s the white kid?! He’s ill?! Now, what are we supposed to do?! *Must* show all target markets! Must! “I just saw one this morning and it looks as forced as it always has. Tying too hard to show how inclusive you are, is along the same thought lines as DC had.

Quote
HWW mentions some real examples of separatist movements. Imagine a firmly installed Tyroc, involved in that story somewhere down the road. Perhaps that would have been the chance to have a Star Trek race as a proxy. It shouldn't have to involve Tyroc directly just because he’s black. But because he's a Legionnaire, and one who has been around in any number of other stories. Ideally, there would be no need to include him at all, especially in an issue about race.


Originally Posted by He Who Wanders
There were so many ways Tyroc could have been used to great effect. Let's accept the idea that Marzal wants nothing to do with the rest of Earth society. Now they've got a hero who has joined the very organization they hate. What does that do to them? What does it do to him?


If we *had* to keep separatist Marzal, a few Levitz scenes of Tyroc introducing the Marzal leaders to the rest of the UP, with lots of people from all sorts of backgrounds would have done the trick. “Look! There’s no need to be separate! These guys over here can’t build safe bridges or archways either!”

But yes, lots and lots of potential, but I’d be even happier to have characters from different ethnic backgrounds, not exist to reflect on them. I note that Dawnstar and Shadow Lass are two characters with cultural subplots. Or if they have to do it, everyone else must too…

Superboy makes another strike against the corporate destruction of Kansas farmland. Commercial leader Lex Luthor V demands action from the UP.

Princess Projectra is ousted from the Legion for her family’s undemocratically run planet. Does she stay with her heritage or embrace what she considers to be “corrupt mob rule”?

Aghast at the corruption of worlds beyond his mother ocean, Tellus has a hard choice to make between returning to his world as it was and embracing the ethos of the Gil’ Dishpan.

Originally Posted by He Who Wanders
I sort of expect those attributes in any Legion-quality candidate. smile


smile The Adventure Comics Candidate Checklist!

I think Dawny, Block and Jacques have a few more wrinkles to their characters, so they don’t necessarily get to tick every box. Not necessarily a bad thing.

Originally Posted by He Who Wanders
My sense of it was that the Betas did not wear Caucasian masks. Only Tyroc wore one to impersonate the Beta he had captured


But that would mean that the champion of the black separatist island has a machine that makes Caucasian masks. Can you imagine pitching that? smile If only the Betas didn’t also discriminate, Tyroc could have infiltrated them much more easily.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 12
thoth lad #882550 12/24/15 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by thoth lad

Originally Posted by He Who Wanders
I sort of expect those attributes in any Legion-quality candidate. smile


smile The Adventure Comics Candidate Checklist!

I think Dawny, Block and Jacques have a few more wrinkles to their characters, so they don’t necessarily get to tick every box. Not necessarily a bad thing.


Yes, and I think this shows more thought was put into their characters than had been done previously.

It's interesting, though, that all three are non-white characters. Non-Caucasians can come with more baggage, it seems. confused

Quote
Originally Posted by He Who Wanders
My sense of it was that the Betas did not wear Caucasian masks. Only Tyroc wore one to impersonate the Beta he had captured


But that would mean that the champion of the black separatist island has a machine that makes Caucasian masks. Can you imagine pitching that? smile If only the Betas didn’t also discriminate, Tyroc could have infiltrated them much more easily.


The Legionnaires and sundry villains had worn masks to impersonate others for years. I get the feeling that there was some toy lying around which quickly created whatever disguises were required, like those temporary tattoo makers.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 12
He Who Wanders #882552 12/24/15 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by He Who Wanders
The Legionnaires and sundry villains had worn masks to impersonate others for years. I get the feeling that there was some toy lying around which quickly created whatever disguises were required, like those temporary tattoo makers.


I reckon it's a unconscious hold over from the time when the Legion were killed by...Mask Man.

Well, I still get chills.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 12
thoth lad #882580 12/24/15 08:24 AM
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I've read it and have found that pretty much any discussion material is being covered by you two. If you hear some faint clapping and a gasp here and there, know that it's me! grin


Still "Lardy" to my friends!
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 12
thoth lad #882583 12/24/15 10:15 AM
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Things we haven't discussed pertaining to 216:

-- Karate Kid's newfound prominence thanks to his solo series.

-- Shadow Lass's prominence as the token female, replacing Light Lass in this role.

-- Speculating on the origin of the Betas. Were there Alphas? Or was Bates doing an anagram for his own name?

-- Brainiac 5's gem gizmo. Will the Star Trek ripoffs ever end?

-- Any further commentary on the backup story.

See? Plenty of jumping-on points. grin


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 12
He Who Wanders #882588 12/24/15 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by He Who Wanders
Things we haven't discussed pertaining to 216:


Modest Brain Globes strike again! I saw Lardy's post and thought:-

- Considering Wildfire moved from his origin of being able to duplicate nearly every Legion power to what we know him for, how would you have modified Tyroc, if at all?

- Was there something wrong with Brainy's scanner, as he went off in the wrong direction?

- Does Rokk's infiltration of the Empresses' citadel, followed up by his knowledge of death bed criminal confessions, mean that he's replacing Cham's leading role in Legion Missions: Impossible/ Espionage squad duties? What did he offer here, that Cham couldn't?

- In the final panel, Tyroc says he'll go to Metropolis to see if he can qualify to become a Legionnaire. Were DC waiting to gauge reaction to the story to see if Tyroc would be a one shot hero, perhaps being seen briefly in the Academy It does mean that the story ends without him actually joining, giving DC a get out?

- Why only faint clapping? smile

I didn't say my thoughts were as good as HWW's smile but I'd hate to think we'd covered everything (doubt it) at the expense of hearing other thoughts. My next review will be ("Legion did stuff: discuss")



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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 12
thoth lad #882639 12/24/15 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by thoth lad

I didn't say my thoughts were as good as HWW's smile ...


Aww!

My thoughts on not on par with Cobie's, but I don't have 4- and 5-year-olds to distract me for the holidays. Thus I spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about Legion stuff. And Babylon 5.

On a serious note, I'm really enjoying this discussion because each of us brings a different perspective to these stories. So, by all means, everyone, chime in!


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 12
He Who Wanders #882688 12/25/15 01:44 AM
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Originally Posted by He Who Wanders
On a serious note, I'm really enjoying this discussion because each of us brings a different perspective to these stories. So, by all means, everyone, chime in!


>nods< I'm much more interested in hearing from everyone else. I might not have any opinions going into an issue, but once I'm done and posted, it's all the other perspectives I really look forward to.

I can't believe my comments have fallen below the standard of Cobie's 4 and 5 year olds. Must up my game smile


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 12
Lard Lad #882745 12/25/15 11:58 PM
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DC did express some concern about how Tyroc would be received in a later issue's letter column - but were happy to report that most readers liked the character. (I doubt they would have printed any hate mail.)

Did Marzal eventually become fully integrated with the rest of Earth and the U.P. (don't remember)? It would have been interesting to have explored how they survived if they had nothing to do with any other people. They would have to have total self-sufficiency yet it appears they maintained technological parity with the rest of the planet. There must have been some serious brainwashing to keep succeeding generations from reaching out to civilization beyond their island. Maybe Marzal is like North Korea, with suppressed dissidents and underground traffic in foreign culture.

Would this story or concept have been better if it had been a different group of people who isolated themselves? Anti-tech/luddite types, a religious order, people with tinnitus....

Originally Posted by Paladin
I've read it and have found that pretty much any discussion material is being covered by you two. If you hear some faint clapping and a gasp here and there, know that it's me! grin


And me.... wink



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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 12
Fat Cramer #882758 12/26/15 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Fat Cramer
Would this story or concept have been better if it had been ... people with tinnitus....


Resident 1: Is that the Legion over Marzal?
Resident 2: What?
Resident 1: What?
Resident 2: Thursday at two, I think.
Resident 1: What?
Resident 2: Bloody Tyroc and his deafening sonic powers...
Resident 1: What?

Announcer: Next month: Tyroc vs Black Canary in a Boom Tube!
Residents: WHAT?!



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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 12
thoth lad #882822 12/26/15 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by thoth lad
Considering Wildfire moved from his origin of being able to duplicate nearly every Legion power to what we know him for, how would you have modified Tyroc, if at all?

One power: Super-Ventriloquism


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 12
thoth lad #882917 12/27/15 06:58 AM
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The Private Lives of Bouncing Boy & Duo Damsel: 1+1=3

While it’s always nice to see Chuck and Lu, I didn’t really get into this story. We’re not long into it, when we see that the story is a combination of Tenzil’s unpublished page where he feels outclassed by a woman; the Dream Girl and Karate Kid back up where the Kid is injured by a hidden weapon and Chuck’s usual subplot of overcoming a lack of self-confidence.

Lu tells the deflated Chuck that the juvenile (yet old) thugs caught him off guard, but that’s not the way the art showed it. It’s a little tough to believe that two street toughs could really get the better of either of them. Both have undergone Legion training. Lu is a very effective combatant while Chuck used to train others in the Academy.

While Chuck overcomes his doubts, it’s odd that he didn’t notice the split Lu, or that she didn’t tell him, if only to warn him about another attack being possible.

At least we do see both of them get highlights. We see Lu’s fighting ability, matched with her awareness. For Chuck, it’s that great spatial awareness he has. He’s much more than a morale officer. I wonder what kind of leader he would have made of the main team, and not just the Academy…


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 12
He Who Wanders #882918 12/27/15 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by He Who Wanders

-- Karate Kid's newfound prominence thanks to his solo series..


Since Shooter introduced him and then really took a shine to him, he's been building towards that solo series. It's a bit of a shame that Shooter wasn't the one writing it really, going by that first issue. It's going to be worth noting the difference in group dynamic in issues to come, with him not being there.

Originally Posted by He Who Wanders

-- Shadow Lass's prominence as the token female, replacing Light Lass in this role..


I can't imagine Ayla and Rokk in the same room, without her putting his head through the ceiling. I imagine Brin would like a "chat" with him too.

By the time I started reading the Legion Shady & Lar, as well as Jo & Tinya were very much an item. So, I always enjoy any of them getting some space to develop.

Originally Posted by He Who Wanders

-- Speculating on the origin of the Betas. Were there Alphas? Or was Bates doing an anagram for his own name?.


I think The Grells works nicely without an anagram. They sound like a fierce race (or possibly after midnight Gremlins). I'll let you work out Hooters powers by yourselves... smile


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 12
Fat Cramer #882997 12/27/15 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Fat Cramer


Did Marzal eventually become fully integrated with the rest of Earth and the U.P. (don't remember)?


As I alluded to earlier, there's a vague reference in a later story of Tyroc on special assignment to help bring Marzal into mainstream society, but we never see anything of his efforts. The island next appears in 265, I think, only to be shunted off into another dimension altogether.


Quote
It would have been interesting to have explored how they survived if they had nothing to do with any other people. They would have to have total self-sufficiency yet it appears they maintained technological parity with the rest of the planet. There must have been some serious brainwashing to keep succeeding generations from reaching out to civilization beyond their island. Maybe Marzal is like North Korea, with suppressed dissidents and underground traffic in foreign culture.


Great questions and speculation!

We eventually find out that Marzal existed on a dimensional fault line and spent much of its existence in the other dimension, appearing in ours only every 200 years or so. Under such circumstances, the population would indeed need to fend for itself.

This is also probably why younger generations didn't want to explore the outside world. If they did, they may become "trapped" in the outside world and never see their loved ones again. Of course, that never stopped people from exploring before.


Quote
Would this story or concept have been better if it had been a different group of people who isolated themselves? Anti-tech/luddite types, a religious order, people with tinnitus....


If this story were published today, what sort of society might be used? Muslims ... gun advocates/anti-gun advocates ... gay people ... Texans ... the mind boggles.



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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 12
Klar Ken T5477 #883000 12/27/15 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Klar Ken T5477
Originally Posted by thoth lad
Considering Wildfire moved from his origin of being able to duplicate nearly every Legion power to what we know him for, how would you have modified Tyroc, if at all?

One power: Super-Ventriloquism


Superboy already had that power. wink

"Too bad for you, Tyroc. You're black, but we're discriminating against you based on the no duplication of powers clause."


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