Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION The Anywhere Machine The Star Wars Episode VII Thread You're Looking For -- Warning: Super-Spoileriffic!

Use this thread to discuss the new Star Wars movie openly and with spoilers.

Probably best to avoid putting big spoilers near the beginning of your post, though, so they don't show up in the Active Topics list.

While I am still kinda processing it and evaluating it, I do feel like I overall liked it a good bit. I don't think any SW movie will ever supplant ESB as my favorite, and this one definitely won't supplant it in my personal pecking order.

Aside: In fact, I still have an internal debate as to whether 2nd place belongs to the original movie (IV), Return of the Jedi or possibly even Revenge of the Sith. It may seem like heresy to suggest any prequel can be ranked so highly, but if a better actor had played Anakin, I think III would have been a slam-dunk for my second favorite.

I was a little surprised, given all the pre-hype and criticism of TWA being too much like IV (I have some trouble calling it "A New Hope"), that this movie felt quite a bit darker than the former. I mean, it began with a village being slaughtered! Yes, I know we saw Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru's smoldering bones in the aftermath, but here (though typically for SW not super-graphic), you see some of them cut down. then, later, you see the latest super weapon cut down several planets instead of just one and even get a glimpse of the terrified masses in their final moment.

And then, well, we lose someone that pretty much every Star Wars fan dearly loves in a pretty heart-wrenching manner. Ben's death hurt in the first one because of a memorable performance by Alec Guinness, but as an old-timer who's seen the films in their release order, it's hard to compare the loss of Ben to one of the most charismatic characters in all of sci-fi.

Yes, all of these echoed events in the original film, but I didn't feel as TFA was all a rehash, even if you incorporate some of the similarities to the assault on the new super-weapon and the desert planet.

An interesting element here is that we have a lot of mysterious backstory to bridge what happened between this one and RotJ. Yep, there was a lot of mysterious backstory in the original, but the difference is that there's no missing trilogy to fill it all in later. It almost feels like the big moments with Kylo Ren with his father and Rey could almost have been saved for the next one if they really wanted TFA to be more like IV, if you know what I mean.

Hell, I'm all over the place! More later!

I liked it! It wasn't perfect, but I love the new set of protagonists. I found their acting superb, and all of them lovable. They really showed growth through the movie.

I also liked what we saw of old characters brought back.

As for the similarities - dare I say, parallels - with IV, I didn't mind them much. They brought a nostalgic smile to my face. Blaze didn't appreciate them because he's never watched the original trilogy. Don't worry, I'm making him watch them

As I said in the other thread, I thought it was pretty average overall. I definitely had fun and there some moments that gave me legitimate chills, but I don't think this film is going to be affecting my ranking of the series very much. I would place solidly behind the original trilogy and just slightly ahead of Revenge of the Sith.

The cinematography of the film was gorgeous and for all the gripes I have with J.J. Abrams' directing styles, he really knows how to invoke that classic Star Wars tone and style, such as the dirty landscape and vehicles to the transitions between scenes that were used in the original trilogy. The use of practical effects for some of the aliens was definitely appreciated and I hope other directors will follow suit with their installments in the franchise.

I also really liked some of the new characters, especially Finn and Poe. Hell, I wanted an entire movie of just those two hanging out and flying ships! Rey was pretty bland for the most part and her character felt a bit too Mary Sue-ish for my tastes, but the actress turned in a solid performance with what she was given. The return of the old cast was great, though I wish Leia would have played a larger role in the film.

I did have a couple of problems with the film, namely in the form of Kylo Ren. There seems to be a jarring inconsistency with his power levels and personality about halfway through the film. When we first seem him, he's easily able to freeze blaster fire in mid air, something we've never seen either a Jedi or Sith do before. However, once he takes off his mask, he almost seems to be a different character. He's much more vulnerable and, frankly, kind of a wimp. His power levels also seem radically different during the final lightsaber fight as he doesn't utilize any of the powers he was employing at the beginning of the film.

Overall, I think it was a well made movie, though there were major problems in the script in the second half that could have been fixed with just a few modifications. I'm interested to see where the sequel will go, especially now that Luke has finally turned up. I just hope Rey will be a more interesting protagonist this time around.

Dump him immediately!

I'm liking it less and less as I reflect on it, and for mostly the reasons Paladin suggests:

It WAS Star Wars redux, just bigger:

- Beloved Father Figure killed (Check) except it was Han!
- Innocents torched (Check) except it was more!
- Creature Cantina (Check) Except More creatures!
- Giant Super Weapon destroyed in a trench battle after the shields are knocked out (Check) Except Bigger!
- The two main bag guys in service to the big bad guy are the military commander and the evil force dude (Check) Except the big bad guy is HUGE!

By the end it was just too much. The first half was better, even given the ridiculous amount of co-incidences (which can be overlooked in SW as the force bringing elements together), but the lazy writing and super nostalgia wank really killed it.

Abrams has become like Geoff Johns, his hard on to re-create nostalgia touch points is undoing his skill as a filmmaker. After "Into Darkness", my biggest complaint was that if he wanted to remake Wrath of Khan, why didn't he just do that? That complaint now goes double for Star Wars.

My other complaint was the overall clunkiness of the pacing. Just casually revealing Ren was Han's son seemed like a waste when you could have had some drama. And the ending sequence was bizarre. We've spent the whole movie looking for Luke, we have the map to where Luke is. Why spend however many minutes it was climbing stairs and looking uncertain to then find the mysterious figure (it's Luke). Who Could it be? (You've already told us, it's Luke). He pulls back his hood and GASP! It's Luke! (Umm, yes we know).

Edit to add: I didn't like the Prequels all that much, but at least they TRIED to be innovative and weren't saying "wink, wink, It's Star Wars, get it?" every two minutes. This film turned out to be completely backward looking.

That's what really frustrated me about the second half of the film. The first act really seemed to be carving its own path and even subverting a few tropes along the way. Finn is really interesting, complex character, but we never really explore that complexity in his own mind enough. Most of his character traits/growth are explained by other characters, such as Han or Maz. I definitely feel like building this new trilogy around Finn would have actually been a more original take on the classic Star Wars mythos. Here's a character who's defied an expectation from birth to kill and destroy and seeks redemption for his actions by fighting against those who raised him. What if he was the Force sensitive character? Would he feel worthy of such powers? How would someone raised without concepts of mercy and free will view Jedi teachings? There are interesting character ideas to explore there! But Abrams just had to have another scrappy kid from a desert wasteland planet as the lead again.

For me it was solidly in the middle of the Star Wars films thus far, well below the original trilogy but well above the prequels.

There was a lot to like, especially in terms of the new protagonists. Rey was strong and competent, without really falling into any sort of stereotype. Poe Dameron just oozed charm, and was the massive breakout character in the early scenes of the movie. Unfortunately, he just disappears and then never really gets to do much interesting once he turns up again. Finn had a really unique introduction, and had just the right amount of bumbling-ness that you would expect from a Stormtrooper turned to the side of the right.

I agree that Kylo Ren was a bit of a weak point. I kept wanting to bash his face in not for being evil but just for being a whiny loser. As far as other villains, I was expecting a lot more out of Gwendolyn Christie's character than we got. And we don't really see enough of the Supreme Leader to really judge anything about him, but I have a feeling he's going to turn out to be a tiny creature ala Yoda once we see the real him and not just the giant hologram he projects.

As I said in the "Watching" thread, I definitely thought it went a little overboard in the winks-to-the-fans around the middle part of the movie, and the plot was a little too "by the numbers". There weren't really any "wow" moments where I felt like it was something I hadn't seen before or something really exciting was being added to the mythos, except maybe a couple of things like the aforementioned introduction of Finn.

The major death wasn't unexpected, and was pretty well done, but I'm kind of bummed it robs of an actual "getting the old gang back together" moment.

Yes, I thought Gwendolyn Christie was wasted in that role. Hopefully they give her more in the second film.

Yeah, Gwendolyn Christie was very memorable considering the minor role and short amount of screen time. I would love to see what she can do with a larger role.

Hahaha! Now he remembers having watched them but he can't recall the plot. There is hope yet!

You know... I was totally thinking about the Geoff Johns comparison while I was watching the movie, and while I agree that it steered *dangerously* close to the kind of cynically manipulative nostalgia-fest that bugs the hell out of me in much of Johns's work, it didn't quite reach that for me. I think the difference is that Abrams actually succeeded in re-creating enough of the charm of the original that the movie still had plenty of heart even if it lacked much originality and even if it was heavily nostalgia-driven.

I agree with what others said above that the new protagonists outshone the new antagonists.

Rey, Finn, Poe (despite his long absence) meshed well with old characters from the original trilogy (well, really just Han and Leia but good enough).

Kylo Ren was whiny, and frankly I saw the big twist at the end coming from a mile away. It hurt a bit, but not as much as it would have if it hadn't been so obvious.

I'm glad they at least acknowledged the Death Star vs. Starkiller Base similarities by having the Rebels compare both while planning. Sadly, while I did cheer a little when they finally blew up Starkiller Base, I didn't feel particularly impressed as it didn't seem like the battle was that difficult.

I cheered much more when Rey handed Kylo Ren's butt to him while fighting with lightsabers.

I have to add that I like Maz as a character, though she does seem a little like Yoda II, only less funny.



Have to agree that there were too many coincidences. The ship just happens to be the Millennium Falcon; Rey just happens to run into the droid; Han and Chewie just happen to be the ones to intercept the Falcon; Maz just happens to have Luke's lightsaber... These would have been forgivable if, as Dave said, the storytelling had been a bit better and the pacing had been a bit tighter.

I also think the big bad is a bit too much like Palpatine (and Voldemort!!!) to be a particularly compelling villain.

The new characters were welcome (and even though I've been hard on the nostalgia, Chewie really did steal the show).

Finn was the most compelling and I wanted more of his conflicting Stormtrooper training vs. moral consciousness, although again his hero's journey was kind of consumed and made secondary by the "revenge of the plot" in the second half.

Rey was well acted, but there wasn't a lot of depth there so far. They hinted a little too strongly that she's part of the family somehow, and her force abilities came a little too quickly for the convenience of the plot.

Po was interesting but his disappearance was odd, and after he came back he was mostly just a plot driving machine.

I agree with some here that I wasn't blown away as I expected to be. But part of me actually was prepared for that. The hype was just too much.

I LOVE Rey. Great hero/main character. I liked the overall plot.
I wanted more revealed of course but they are pacing themselves it seems. Didn't want to spill all the candy in the first part of the trilogy.

Looks like Cpt Phasma and Poe Dameron may play bigger roles next movie.

Things I didn't like? For all of the shots taken at episode 1-3 they sure had some bad CGI. Maz Kanata and Snoke looked extremely generic. Maz didn't bother me because I saw her cartoony but kids will like it. Snoke looked like a bad CGI version of Voldemort.

I found it hard to like Finn. He just looks a bit ordinary to me. Some of his lines were great and the actor did a pretty good job. Just the character isn't that likable. I can't imagine a romance between him and Rey. He seems too goofy in my opinion.

Oh the last fight scene between Rey and Kylo Ren. Rey just appeared very slow...I know she's not an expert with a saber but it didn't seem like they used a stunt double. Would have rather have had a slightly more athletic fight. I really wished they showed her being powerful yet raw with force (TK) attacks.

The Han and Leia scenes seemed forced.

Anyways, overall I loved it. Maybe the 3rd best SW film? I really love Rey. I like Kylo as a villain (love actually) and I like Poe. The overall plot was great, each location was pretty good.

One of the more interesting theories I've read about the movie is that Finn actually *is* force sensitive, and his breaking his programming is the result of the "awakening" in the Force. It would also explain why he's at least competent with the lightsaber despite a complete lack of training.

I hope that theory is true. Finn's training as a Jedi in the next film could redeem some of the problems I had with the character arcs in this movie.

Overall, I liked more things than I disliked.

I thought Carrie Fisher was magnificent. The hard life that she's led in Real Life adds richness and gravity to Leia.

Loved Chewie here, even more than I loved him in the previous films.

Loved all the droids. As manipulative as the scene near the end with R2-D2 was, it pushed all the right buttons for me.

Thought Gwendoline Christie was awesome. Crasher-from-GoBots level awesome, and hope she gets TONS more screentime in the future. There HAS to be a Rey/Phasma duel at some point, or I'll scream!

Harrison Ford is usually, to me, one of those actors who seemed to stop giving a shit decades ago, so I was pleasantly surprised at what seemed to be a genuine twinkle in his eye. That said, I didn't have a problem with Han's fate. I thought J.J. Abrams and Ford and Adam Driver did a good job of keeping us guessing whether or not they'd "go there". I also think it was dramatically sound and not gratuitous.

And I didn't dislike Driver's Kylo Ren as much as other posters in this thread. I think there was a point to his emo angst, which is that he knows deep down that he'll never measure up to anybody he looks up to, on either side of the force. Now, that could prove to be problematic in future installments. I'd be all for a surprise twist where Ren dies and Phasma takes command.

Abrams' direction seemed to me more competent and less frantic than with his first Star Trek film (I didn't see the second.)

Of the newbie heroes, I liked the charismatic Oscar Isaac (Poe Dameron) the best, and agree that he was offscreen for far too long. I thought Daisy Ridley (Rey) was too much of a girly-girl. She lacks ferocity IMO, there's too little fire in her eyes. John Boyega (Finn) seemed hopelessly bland to me, and I think he failed to properly convey any of the inner turmoil of his character. Show, don't tell, John.

As far as where I rank Episode VII, I'd say below IV-VI but above the prequels.



Agreed 100%.

I think it is a mistake to try to compare Episode Seven to the original Star Wars films.

In its time, it was a cultural phenomenon seldom realized since then. There is really no comparison with the current film.

My father was nineteen when he saw what is now called “A New Hope”, and it literally changed the way he looked at the world, and this was almost universally the case.

For example, before Star Wars there basically were no “action figures”. OK, there was GI Joe and Barbie, but “action figures” were not a big deal. Later, films would be made specifically to sell action figures. (Transformers, and so forth)

As far as popular culture, my grandfather was an attorney with Pacific Legal Foundation. In 1977, when the model for legal advocacy was the ACLU, PLF was characterized by the New York Times as “The Darth Vader of public interest law firms”. As “The Empire Strikes Back” and “Return of the Jedi” had not yet screened, they did not mean “possibly capable of redemption”.

The real metric for “The Force Awakens” is its contemporaries. For example, in nearly every review of nearly every Pixar movie, some reviewer writes, effectively, “If this were made by any other studio, it would be nominated for an Academy Award, but we expect so much more from Pixar.” I would say that “The Force Awakens” is at least better than “The Good Dinosaur” and almost as good as “Inside Out”.

Yay! I was eagerly awaiting your review Fickles, because I thought you could end up going either way with it!

Sue Pergirl, I think you raise a good point, but I also think you should also consider that many viewers over 35, myself included, do not usually watch contemporary movies, and usually only do the big-screen experience if it has some kind of connection to their youth. Unadventurous, I know, but speaking only for myself, the days when I sought challenging films over comforting films are over.



Thank you, EDE.

I'd say that the longer it went on, the more it seemed like it might go off the rails, but ultimately it did not, in my opinion.

I think both Sue Pergirl and Fanfic Lady raise the interesting point of, what would people who have NEVER watched a Star Wars film say versus those who have watched every previous film? Case in point, Blaze can't remember watching the original trilogy and his response to the film was lukewarm, whereas mine was positive.

Like Fanfie, I also prepare comforting films over challenging films now But it's very hard to get me to sit down for 90 minutes straight and just watch something; that's why I prefer watching movies at home, if I get bored I can just walk away

Hey, how young do you think I am? I'll be 35 in May.

And I go to lots and lots of movies. Mostly kid's movies. Lots and lots of kids movies. Saw Big Hero Six four times. Even saw Minions, with much regret. Go figure.

My ten-years-younger step-brother has never seen ANY of the Star Wars films. Not even the TV cartoons. He will be going to see it tomorrow. I'll tell you what he thought of it after I see him at Christmas.

Cute story: Several years ago when the Star Wars TV show was very big, we went to a child's birthday party. He got several Star Wars action figures as gifts. He was especially excited about getting young Obi-Wan Kenobi. He showed it to me and asked, "Do you know who this is?" I said, "Yes, that's Obi-Wan Kenobi. He's our only hope." He had no idea what I was talking about. Stared at me like I was nuts.

That's why I said "many viewers over 35", not "all viewers over 35."

No offense, Fanfic Lady. I was not accusing you of speaking for me, only accusing you of oldsplaining to someone who is equally old.

Old. So old. This is my new Life Motto:



I probably do see more movies than average. Two of my roommates in college were film history majors, after all, and I think it had an effect on me.

I don't think it's unfair to compare TFA to the original movies, especially for a film that is targeting original trilogy fans' nostalgia so explicitly. Some of the repeated plot beats from New Hope and Empire Strikes Back did seem a bit forced a times, such as Han confronting Kylo Ren on a catwalk overlooking a giant chasm or the rebels targeting a weak spot on a giant planet destroying ship. That's why I think the second half of the film starts to fall apart since it's obviously trying to BE the original films and it ignores the first half of the film that was largely taking new and unexpected turns with the Star Wars mythos.

That's a charming story! I look forward to hearing what your step-brother thinks about the movie.

Yeah, that's the thing. Obviously, there's no comparison with the broader cultural impact that the original movies had in the milieu of the late 70s, but my problem is just from the point of view of ten years from now, how much of this film is really going to be all that memorable. I'm not going to be thinking, "Hey, remember that scene with the cantina with all the aliens from A Force Awakens?" or comparing anything to the catwalk confrontation from Episode VII, because those are tropes that already have more familiar reference points. The stuff that is actually kind of memorable in the movie are stuff like the cool shots of the wrecked ships in the desert, or Finn's introduction (which I think would've been even cooler if we hadn't got all the shots of him in Stormtrooper gear in the previews and it truly came out of nowhere), or even BB8. But all that stuff is from *very* early in the movie.

I will say, though, that Han Solo has to be my favorite character to ever originate on film. He's the coolest guy any kid could ever imagine himself growing up to be. While I won't pretend that I didn't want to be a Jedi, I always thought he was the coolest. I cried when he was stabbed and fell into the abyss. It's like a part of my childhood died with him.

I'm not necessarily complaining that Han was killed off. There's a certain poetry to how he served the Ben Kenobi role in this one in many ways, and this was the most personal someone's corruption to the dark side has ever felt with how it played out.

But it was damned sad for me.

I must be easier to please than a lot of you because while I recognise and agree with many of the criticisms raised in this thread, they didn't affect my enjoyment of the movie at all.

Because everyone loves a list at this time of year, here are my goods and bads (or lights and darks, if you will ) of The Force Awakens:

LOVED:

* BB8 - What an awesome little droid! I was not an R2D2 fan at all when I was a kid, so I was pleasantly surprised at how into this guy I got. The design is simply fantastic and I loved its little moments of humour (the "thumbs up" scene! haha).

* Chewbacca - Another character I wasn't hugely fond of in the original trilogy. I don't know if they've re-designed his costume to allow the actor to express more emotion through his eyes or facial expressions or something, but something seemed different, and more engaging, about him. And I liked it a lot!

* Han Solo - As Fanfic Lady (I think) mentioned upthread, Harrison Ford seems like he's been phoning in performances for years now so I was also pleasantly surprised to see him add some of his old twinkle and spark to his portrayal of Han. I must have been the only person who didn't see his death coming too so that was a sad but exciting surprise. I love that the filmmakers weren't afraid to kill off such a major and popular character but I'm sorry we'll now never get to see a reunion scene between him and Luke.

* Kylo Ren - I don't get any of the criticism of this character *at all*! He was probably my favourite new character in the movie! First of all, I very much appreciated that he wasn't an all-knowing Darth Vader redux. This may sound like heresy, but Darth Vader was probably my least favourite character in the original trilogy. (Ironically, it wasn't until I'd watched them again after watching the much-maligned prequel trilogy that I was able to summon any sort of empathy or interest for him and his story.) But everything about the dangerous and angry but also tragic and slightly pathetic Kylo Ren has me invested. IMO he's very much a teenager without being annoying in the way that so many teen-aged characters are - he's trying to live up to the legacy of his family (grandfather) but filled with self-doubt and anxiety, he hates his parents but secretly loves them, he's lonely and looking for a friend to join him (Rey), he's prone to fits of temper when things don't go his way. Haven't we all been there? He also looks and sounds really cool and has 1) an awesome light saber; and 2) the cool ability to stop laser fire mid-air! What's not to love?

* The mystery - Keeping the audience guessing as to who or where Luke is/was in both the marketing material and also throughout the movie was a great hook IMO. I'm a sucker for a good mystery and I was engaged all movie with seeing how this one resolved. Unfortunately, see below for my thoughts on how it got resolved.

* Rey, Finn, Poe - I really liked all three characters but my order of preference is as written. I completely bought into Rey's character and thought the actress did a great job. The internal conflict in Finn could have been more developed but I really loved that he was this much less than perfect character (especially in comparison to the other two) basically just bluffing and stumbling his way through the events in an attempt to get away from the story, but whose heroism and inherent goodness kept dragging him back into it. Poe started off great (though Oscar Isaac's hair bugged me a bit, he looks so much hotter with the shaved head he had in Drive) but my interest waned the instant he started whooping and hollering around the sky. I *hate* those sort of "Ra-Ra" characters that are so common to American movies.

* The visuals - The practical effects, the special effects, the 3D, the alien designs, the armour designs, the ship designs... everything about watching this movie was a complete treat for my eyes and for that reason alone I probably still would have loved it.

* The nostalgia factor - I loved seeing so many little cameos of original trilogy characters and concepts. Admiral Ackbar! Nien Nunb! The hologram chess set! Chewie's crossbow! That imperial 'Walker' vehicle Rey was sitting under! The old Rebel pilot helmet Rey was wearing in the same scene! That little black box droid on wheels that the Imperials use! The way the Millennium Falcon was introduced! These and so many other little moments hit me right in the feels! Are these the same moments that others are referring to when they complain about "nostalgia"? I don't get it if so. To me, these elements are just little easter eggs connecting the characters and elements of this movie to the lore and history of the previous ones. If the "nostalgia" complaint is in reference to the rehashed plot then yes, I agree with you (see below) but I honestly cannot see how anyone could complain about any of the elements I've mentioned above.

* Snoke - Mysterious. I like that. And I really hope he is as giant as his hologram projects him as.

* The humour - This film had a lot more funny moments than I was expecting and I appreciated them.

---

DIDN'T LOVE:

* The recycled plot from A New Hope - This is my biggest criticism. Everything from the desert planet opening scenes to the orphan becoming wise with the Force to the visit to the cantina for help to the villain in black guided by a mysterious master to the Death Star version 3 to the destroyed planet to the trench run to the wise, old mentor who guides our heroes to their destination and then dies... and on and on and on. Almost every story beat and plot point in this movie had been done before. And yet... for some reason, I was completely OK with it. And ironically, the one completely original scene that doesn't really have a parallel with any of the scenes from the original movie (the chase/action scene with the bounty hunters and the gross tentacle creatures on Han's ship) was easily my least favourite scene in the whole movie. So it just goes to show that the writers can't win! haha

* Luke's reveal - What a letdown! I was so hoping he would make this grand, amazing entrance. I was hoping we'd find him using some cool, previously unseen Force power like flight or something. And instead he's just... standing on a hill somewhere. I wanted more from you Luke, dammit! I still do love that we didn't see him all movie until the final scene though. And I can't wait to see what they do with him in Episode VIII.

* Captain Phasma's screen time - Someone else I wanted more from! She'd better come back for the sequels because she was criminally underused here!

* Maz Kanata - I was excited when I heard about this mysterious new character that Lupita Nyong'o was playing... and then she turned out to be this boring old expository character that could have been portrayed by any old human woman rather than wasting time and special effects to create this one. The grumpy barman from A New Hope was more interesting than she was! What a shame Bea Arthur wasn't still alive to reprise her role from The Christmas Special.

* New background characters - As mentioned above, the new major characters were great. But there weren't enough interesting new background characters for me to obsess over. A New Hope had so many - Jawas, Sandpeople, Walrus Man, that clumsy fridge-like droid... but no one really stood out from the background in this one. I got super-excited when Finn went off with those two merchants or whatever from Maz Kanata's cantina (especially the one that looked like Spanish conquistador spray-painted red!) but after that initial glimpse, we never saw them again.

---

I think I might be forgetting one or two other small gripes but it doesn't matter. The goods far out-weighed the bads with this movie IMO and I am a happy Star Wars camper.

I agree. Even in a franchise filled with force-wielding lightsaber-dueling good guys, Han's personality just made him stand out as uber-cool.

Poe Dameron is also cool but Han is still cooler.

As an aside, I also liked the Finn and Poe friendship. Just two guys who mutually respect each other. It's very refreshing.



I'm with you. I recognize the bad points, but they still didn't make me enjoy the movie less. Perhaps I am more willing to suspend disbelief




I think you hit the nail on the head there, Blacula

I have seen some complaints about how convenient it was for the Falcon to be on Jakku, for it to be the exact ship that Rey and Finn used to escape, and for Han and Chewie to be able to track it...

... but those are coincidences I'm willing to accept. (Besides, Han was already tracking the ship so it was just a matter of really, really good timing).

Also agree that Chewie was so much more endearing in Episode VII.

I think it is more the rehashed plot elements that people are complaining about in regards to the nostalgia problem than stuff like seeing Ackbar or Nien Nunb (which were really cool). Then there was stuff like the reference to the trash compactor which really fell flat for me (by contrast, the "Kessell Run" line worked really well). After awhile it just felt like they were trying too hard to say "Hey, remember how cool Star Wars was when you saw it the first time?" rather than showing us cool new stuff.

I'm wondering if some of the coincidences don't have more of an explanation than they seem. I'm convinced that there must be more to the Max von Sydow character than what we saw, and his having the map to Luke on the same planet as Rey, and perhaps even the Falcon being there are all connected (and I think we can attribute to the Force the fact that Rey and Finn end up taking the Falcon).

I have to say that I absolutely loved seeing Billie Lourd among the resistance staff, and wished we'd gotten to see more of her, especially interacting with Leia. By contrast, I found Greg Grunberg's presence slightly distracting for some reason.

LOL

I know what you mean re: Greg Grunberg, EDE. To me, he'll always be Weiss from "Alias."

OTOH, I think it's kind of cool that he appears in a sort of "Where's Waldo" capacity in just about anything that his childhood friend J.J. Abrams does.

Did anyone else love that Stormtrooper who sees Finn during that battle on Takodana and is like "Screw you Finn, I'm going to kick your ass for betraying us!"? It was so out of character for a Stormtrooper, yet it was hilariously awesome!

Yeah, that was great. Also, one of my favorite bits in the movie was when Kylo Ren was throwing his temper tantrum after Rey escapes and the two stormtroopers start down the hallway towards the room he's in, only to turn around and go back when they hear him.

Last complaint, I promise (well, not promise, but...), So if I understand the explanation, Ren turned on Luke, killed off his other Padawan's and Luke just... wussed out? Really? After all he's learned and grown, he just walked away? Leaving Ren and Snoke to run rampant and eventually kill off an entire system worth of people (Which like Alderaan, doesn't get much of a second thought, BTW)? There'd better be some serious explanations or repercussions on this one. I was never a huge Luke fan, but he's certainly proven to be more heroic than that.

My friends and I were discussing this idea: what if Captain Phasma challenged Kylo Ren to a fight to be Snoke's second in command and beat him? I think it would be really cool to finally see a badass female Sith lord on screen. (not counting Asajj Ventress since I think that stuff isn't considered canon).

Has anyone else been following the whole fiasco with Max Landis criticizing Rey? The Internet is going nuts!

I liked that more than the silly duel they got into. Maz urging Finn to use the lightsaber was a bit too much for me (though Finn using the lightsaber against Kylo later on was awesome and totally made sense).



That made me and the people around me chuckle!



At first I thought it was Snoke who turned on Luke, then he just snagged Ren and brought him along. Having Ren be the betrayer just seems too much, especially considering Ren's uncontrollable temper tantrums and the relative ease with which Rey used the Force to read his mind!

I do agree that Luke just giving up and disappearing is confusing and disappointing. And now a whole planetary system has been destroyed...

Was it explained how Maz came into possession of Anakin's old lightsaber? I assumed it was either still stuck in the Cloud City ventilation pipes or had fallen on the surface of Bespin?

I assume we'll get more explanation for Luke's actions in the next movie, so I'm willing to withhold judgement on it for the time being.

It seems to me you could make the same criticisms of Yoda and Ben after Revenge of the Sith, though.

No. Last we saw of it was when Vader chopped off Luke's hand and it went flying into the depths of Cloud City.

That's true, though with Ben and Yoda I think part of the justification is that Palpatine had taken control of the Empire and the clone army, so Ben and Yoda were limited in what they could do (plus we saw Ben try to stop Anakin and Yoda try to stop Palpatine in duels).

You do make a good point that more on Luke will be revealed, and i'm confident that an acceptable explanation will be given for his (in)action. Maybe he tried, but couldn't.

Four Millennials Watch Star Wars for the First Time

Blaze isn't alone!

And I'm shocked because these millennials are all about my age!

One of my favorite things at the moment: Emo Kylo Ren

As promised, this is the assessment of my 10-years-younger step-brother, who had never seen any of the previous Star Wars films:

“It was a good movie.”

He did have some observations, though.

• There must be an awful lot of habitable worlds in the Galaxy, considering with what impunity the First Order destroys (at least) a half-dozen planets, and two stars. Best guess is tens of billions die in this film.

• For a guy who doesn’t want to kill, Finn sure kills a lot of people. Mostly storm trooper “bad guys”, but he was a storm trooper bad guy. So why doesn’t he identify with them as much as the innocent villagers on Jaaku, who are strangers to him?

• Somewhat confused about light-sabers. Just how does a light-saber work? Why isn’t Finn cut in pieces? Also, twice a light-saber is used to stab, when it really seems like more of a slicing weapon. Also, Kylo Ren’s light-saber is clearly inferior to Rey’s: its containment field seems unstable, giving it a poorly defined edge.

• Vic identifies with Finn in one way: he also worked as a sanitation engineer (janitor) in college. Finn actually ought to have an intimate knowledge of Star killer Base if he worked there as a janitor. Janitors go everywhere.

• Vic had a little trouble with the familial relationships, but eventually figured out (a) if Luke and Leia are brother and sister, then Darth Vader is the father of them both (b) Leia and Han are the parents of Kylo Ren, therefore Darth Vader is his grandfather. Not too difficult, especially with all the exposition, but it took about half-way through the film before he got it straight in his mind.

• In the Star Wars universe, being a pilot is the epitome of cool.

• “Supreme Leader Snoke has a kind of wizard-of-Oz vibe going on, am I right?”

• Why does Luke Skywalker, the Last Jedi, look like the Trickster from CW Flash?

• If Maz has survived for the last thousand years, which means all the events of all six previous films and more, isn’t it likely that she is pretty good at surviving, and has made it through episode seven as well, despite the destruction on her planet? Are we supposed to think that?

• Maybe not so many people died after all. The planets in Star Wars seem really small. The habitable regions, at least those we see, are no more than a few dozen square miles. Otherwise, why does Rey stay in that crummy desert town on Jaaku, instead of going somewhere else on the same planet? Our Earth has at least hundreds of major cities.

• Pretty good film all around, he will probably go see episode eight, but did not really get choked up with the reunion of Rey and Luke at the end of the film. He felt it probably should have run as the scene after the credits.

Neil DeGrasse Tyson quote: “BB-8 is waaaaay cuter than R2D2. I guess I did just demote R2D2 to “dwarf cute” status.”

• Vic, however, is totally unimpressed with the cuteness of droids.

P.S.: You can relay the following message from me to any appropriate fangeeks: there is a very specific meaning for the phrase Mary Sue, and it does not mean “female protagonist that I do not happen to like.”

Thanks for sharing, Supe Pergirl.

I also don't find the droids particularly cute. I think their beeping is cuter than their forms, in fact.

Currently reading the novelization.

A couple of thoughts thus far:

--We get to see more of Poe's story in the novel. Unfortunately it's not all that exciting (and is weirdly placed in the novel), so I don't think we lost that much leaving it out of the movie.

--There's a scene where Unkar Plutt tracks Rey down at Maz's castle which serves as a setup for her firing her weapon with the safety on bit in the film (I remember thinking it seemed like something was missing when I saw that). I also serves to replicate another famous bit from the original movie, though, which is kind of annoying.

--Speaking of which, I hadn't picked up on the fact that the Falcon being brought on board Han's freighter (by a tractor beam apparently), was meant to parallel the scene of the Falcon being tractored onto the Death Star in the original film.

--There's a lot more of Leia, including a scene where she sends one of her aids to plead for more help from the Republic Senate (thus inadvertently sending her to her death). It fleshes out the political situation a bit more.

Overall, though, I'm about two-thirds in and I'm kind of liking the novel more than the movie. It seems better paced somehow, and, though heavily derivative in plot, somehow it's not bothering as much as the film.

Believe it or not, the novelization of Phantom Menace was actually pretty decent. I don't mean this facetiously because I did enjoy TFA. Just sayin'.

(The novelization of Revenge of the Sith was REALLY good, I thought.)

BTW, I noticed that Marvel hasn't done a comics adaptation of TFA. I know comics adaptations of movies are very uncommon these days, but this would be the first Star Wars Episode to not be adapted for comics. (Dark Horse adapted the prequels while they had the license.)

Looks like Edie's Emo Kylo Ren thingie has tickled Bleeding Cool's fancy!

I took the wife and kids to see it on Christmas Day. I still had the same complaints (though I did enjoy it more the second time around). My oldest daughter, like me, was let down by the second half and walked away disliking it. My youngest thought it was OK. My wife and son LOVED it. Like Blacula, they saw the same flaws I did (With my son even verbally checking off moments "Here's the Obi-Wan moment, here's the Death Star Moment, etc."), but emphatically didn't care.

So there you go, split decision.

Very Lonely Luke is getting in on the act!

(personally I think Emo Kylo Ren is better)

Yeah, the Luke one isn't doing much for me.

I'm really liking the TR-8R Facebook parody page.

I just saw Bad Father Han Solo, which looks pretty funny.

The problem is, part of the reason Star Wars did as well as it did, is because these are Archetypes. I have heard it said that Lucas based the Original Trilogy on Campbellian Archetypes; which basically makes the argument that humans have been recycling the same stories over and over again because they appeal to us. The website TV Tropes documents this more fully than I can explain in one post.

It's not original, and the movie even lampshades itself at several points (most notably when Han says it is just a bigger Death Star, and the female enemy commander said disabling the shileds is useless). But the director definitely followed the Campbellian archetypes to the letter. And that's why the movie isn't really a bad story, because it contains all the elements of a good story.

Some people on the interwebz think that Snoke may actually be Darth Plagueis. Plagueis was Palapatine's master before Palpatine killed him. The supposed smoking gun is that Snoke's music is apparently similar to the theme played when Palpatine told Anakin Plagueis's story in Episode III. Plagueis, you may recall, supposedly had the power to stop people from dying, something that appealed to Anakin after his vision of Padme dying.

Interesting idea, but I seriously doubt it. Especially do because Disney appears to be distancing itself as much as possible from the prequels without outright contradicting them. However, there was apparently a discarded plan to have Hayden Christiansen appear as force ghost Anakin in TFA, so it's not beyond the realm of possibility.

That is an interesting idea, Paladin. It is a a little obscure, but the III was the best prequel (I know that doesn't mean much) and the most recent movie before this one so it would make sense to tie it all together somehow. A person my age grew up with the prequels and maybe saw the original trilogy if their parents like Star Wars.

Do kids today have a general idea what Star Wars is from the toys/cartoons?

My experience is that teenagers and younger who are familiar with Star Wars know The Clone Wars animated series better than anything else.

My 16-year old cousin started out with the Clone Wars, and only watched the original trilogy after watching those. He mostly talks about the Clone Wars.



That is true. Although I think one reason for the number of complaints is because, Force Awakens was more obvious about it by not only reusing these archetypes... but by recycling them in the same forms as in the original trilogy.

Saw the movie earlier today.

Emily makes an excellent point that the movie is based on archetypes, and that's why it virtually rips off "A New Hope" but doesn't feel like a ripoff. Rather, it feels like these characters are going through some repeated themes and events in their lives . . . which is sad, really. It means the huge sacrifices of their earlier efforts amounted to nothing. No wonder Luke got discouraged.

Speaking of Luke, one of the aspects I did like was the way the movie ended. The whole movie defies our expectations of seeing all the gang back together. It just doesn't happen. I would argue that this is a strength of the film; consider, for contrast, the often forced "reunions" of the old Star Trek films. (In one film, Worf shows up and gets interrupted before he can explain why he's there.) The movie sacrifices our expectations for the sake of the story (which is built on a quest to find Luke)--and, for the most part, I think it succeeds.

Some have called the ending anticlimactic, and I can see their point. There's not the big reveal of Luke doing anything. He's just standing on a mountain. Yet that scene hit all the right emotional chords with me. Consider: Rey is the last potential Jedi yet still has a lot to learn; only Luke can teach her. When she sees him, it gives us hope that Luke can train her and possibly a new generation of Jedis to be what they need to be.

The most emotional aspect of the scene, however, is when she offers him his old light sabre. There is just something in his expression . . . a recognition of "home," perhaps, or a destiny he can't outrun . . . a feeling that something he has been waiting for has arrived . . . a new new hope?

I think this ending makes sense when one considers the Force and the enormous number of coincidences that seem to happen throughout the film (Rey and Finn finding the Millennium Falcon and then being tracked by Han and Chewie). The Force has often been equated with spirituality--the "force that binds all living things together," a description often applied to God. In this context, perhaps Luke senses that Rey's arrival is the Force at work.

All of this is conveyed, or at least implied, without dialogue. I love it that Luke says nothing. There is nothing he could say that would improve the scene. Much depends on the viewer's imagination and interpretation. The last shot--panning around the mountain as she holds the life sabre out and he stands there frozen--is an iconic moment, a sense that something momentous is happening.

At least that's how I took it.

I disagree. I firmly believe that it's actually one step removed form that and they only absorbed the archetypes in that they were a fabric of the first movie. The intention was to hit the nostalgia buttons hard and replicate scenes from the first movie, the archetype repetition was secondary to that calculation. And look, it worked. Every time I try to explain what I dislike about the movie, people just look at me and say "So?". They very clearly gave the majority what they wanted and it's been a massive success both lucratively and in terms of fan reaction, so good for them. It's just not something I liked as much as I wanted to, so I'm moving on.

I took my nieces to see it and THEY LOVED IT. That was kind of cool - watching them enjoy it, get excited and even a little scared. They were shocked and sad at Han's death and cheered Rey (especially since my oldest niece is named Rae).

As for me, I thoroughly got lost in the scope of the vision. I enjoyed the way that the camera would pull back to these amazingly massive terrains. I also thought the last scene was breathtaking with its use of an actual landscape (vs. the green screen that Lucas was so enamored of).

The cantina scene was a bright moment for me - seeing the world fully realized and the thrill of this bar that is just seedy enough to look fun.

The new cast was overshadowed by the depth of the older cast but the new ones were fairly capable introductions (IMO). After seeing the film, the hoopla about Finn's race seemed even more ridiculous.

The villain seemed less powerful and frightening without his helmet. There was a trick of scale being used (as the actual actor is over 6' tall and yet he and Rey are pretty much eye-to-eye in their duel) and I wonder if they intend to reduce the trick as the series progresses (to make him more intimidating).

The story was much thinner than I was expecting. I kind of lost the plot for a bit with the death star planet thing, as it seemed so secondary to the scenery. At least to me.

I know that when I saw the film, I though Coruscant was among the planets destroyed by the Starkiller. Apparently not, though?

No. I'm assuming the First Order must be headquartered on Coruscant? Because that the only explanation I can think of for the New Republic not using it.

Didn't what we saw of one of the destroyed planets kind of look like it, though? I remember the person (a stranger) next to me obviously thought the same thing as he muttered "not Coruscant" when it happened.

Yeah, whatever the capital of the Republic was did look a lot like Coruscant, as I recall.

But Luke does speak in the trailer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngElkyQ6Rhs

“The force is strong in my family. My father had it. I have it. My sister has it. You have that power, too.”

He doesn’t seem to be talking to anyone in this particular movie. This could be a flashback to Ben was little, who is actually pretty weak with the force, or a flash-forward to Rey, who may or may not be a Skywalker. Maybe this will be answered in Episode VIII?

One other question that has been nagging at me is “Why Poe Dameron?”

I mean, obviously he is necessary to get the BB8 into Finn’s hands, which also gets Finn and Rey together, and to explain why the BB8 is so important.

But why does he have to come back from the dead? Why can’t some other character lead the attack on Starkiller Base? He seems pretty unimportant, to the first movie at least. Maybe his character and purpose will be more developed in Episode VIII?

The longer I have been out of the theater, the less this movie makes sense. Perhaps it is just that I don't like loose ends.

It's a sound bite, slightly re-arranged, from Return of the Jedi (He's talking to Leia).

I've never seen the trailers. I'm glad this dialogue was omitted from the movie; it would add nothing to the scene.

I confess my appalling ignorance.

Well, Rey and Finn have both have very sheltered lives in their own way (Rey literally living on a remote desert planet and Finn being brainwashed with the enemy's point of view). The movies need someone knowledgeable to explain things to the audience.

^Just to be clear, the above quote is from Sue Pergirl, not from me.

Not only does Poe explain things, but he's also a great character--charismatic, heroic, irreverent towards Kylo Ren ... someone we've spent much of the first part of the movie getting to know. It would be a shame to let all of that go to waste.

Yeah, he's a fantastic character, it's just that he's not really given much of anything memorable to do after his return. If it had been Greg Grunberg's character, or Nien Numb, or anyone else who ended up finishing off the Starkiller base, it really wouldn't have made much difference.

Well, I loved Poe's reunion with Finn--telling him to keep the jacket. That alone made his return memorable, to me.

Has anyone else heard the theory that Rey is actually Obi-wan's granddaughter? (It is also often connected to a theory that Obi-wan and Padme were lovers in the prequels). I don't remember anything hinting that Obi-wan had any lust.