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#939473 - 10/24/17 06:51 PM Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 18 [Re: thoth lad]  
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She ran and called him Wildfire.
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The Plateaus of Ecstasy
Originally Posted by thoth lad
LoSH 299

Dawny is a little aloof and critical. But that criticism deserves a closer look. Mysa is essentially taking her role as a Legionnaire here. If Mysa finds their missing colleagues then she could continue to do so in the future. More so, as Dawny has already clearly tried to find them without success. Mysaís spell requires meditation and comes with special effects. Dawnyís approach is direct and quick by comparison. So, her insecurity results in the comment about Mysa being too theatrical. When Mysa confirms that Jacques and Drake are not on the asteroid, Dawny is pretty much saying to them that she shouldnít have tried after the expert had told them they werenít there. But Mysa almost succeeds, and that perhaps draws out a further critical comment about Blok. Dawny is the odd one out here, with Blok fighting Mysaís corner.


Excellent character analysis! I'd never seen Dawny in this way before. I thought she was just being snippy because that's what heroes are supposed to do. (You read so many mainstream comics, you think at least one character must be antagonistic at all times.) But all of this makes perfect sense.

Quote


Once Blok climbs out of the hole, he too is beaten. Kharlak is a trained warrior of the challenge courts. Blok is just dense and strong with little formal training. We learn that Blok is ďas the primal force made meĒ showing another remove from his origin where he had seemingly been transformed. It also gives a Lost Legion Tales link to Primal Force, a DC team of the 20th century Ė who just happened to have a member called Golem! smile I wonder how Blokís physiology works. He can be knocked out, for example, so does he essentially have the same internal structure as the others?


I loved the "primal force" line as it gave a hint to Blok's own spiritual beliefs, which contrast nicely with Jacques'. I was unaware of the Primal Force team. What an odd coincidence that there would be a Golem.

Quote

Well, the key emotion shifts are caused by Jacquesí reaction to seeing his predecessor. It ties in with his steadfast belief system. Mysa works dark magic, this world is an unfit wasteland and, since he knows Lyle to be dead, then this Lyle must be supernatural. Jacques states confusion, but heís already made up his mind that Lyle is not real. Jacques is sure of his own identity and beliefs. Therefore, Lyle is a mirage.


This, too, is a great character analysis. It helps explain something which always bothered me: why Jacques didn't go after Lyle. If Jacques has already concluded that the latter is a mirage, there's no need.

I also think you're right that Jacques was wrong to punch out Drake and drag him off. Jacques makes the "right" choice, i.e., the choice which allows Wildfire to remain a continuing character in the book. But he takes his teammate's right to choose away from him.

This sequence reminding me of Star Trek: Generations, still many years in our pop culture future, in which Picard and Kirk are trapped in a dimension which brings to life their deepest desires. But Picard is able to persuade Kirk he doesn't belong there. Jacques merely punches Drake out. Well, comics always have to be expedient.

Quote

The final page shows a relaxed and undisturbed Lar telling his host about the Legionís work elsewhere on the archipelago. Shady interrupts him, bringing her long costume change subplot to the reveal that itís the same one we saw on the cover of Adventure Comics 354, complete with skin tone change. Thereís something off about a character who was originally intended to be black ďwhiting upĒ


Yeah. Levitz is so keen on keeping the reader in suspense that he never considers character motivation or any larger context, such as what it implies if someone of a different race tries to appear Caucasian (e.g., white is "normal"). I suppose changing one's skin color in the 30th century might be as common as changing one's hair color is today. However, Levitz was writing to a 20th century audience for whom race was still a touchy subject in the '80s (and, sadly, has become even more so in recent decades). Shady's transformation might make sense, but it should be given some grounding other than "that's the way she looked on the cover of Adventure 354." Comic book myopia.

Quote
Finally, would it have hurt to have had Dawny lead the Khundian ship into a trap set by the rest of her team?


Have one of our heroes demonstrate competence and carry out a plan? Nah, too easy. smile




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#939518 - 10/25/17 10:06 AM Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 18 [Re: Future]  
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As HWW commented, thothís analysis of Dawnstar is excellent!

Originally Posted by thoth
The Legion powerhouses have traditionally been of one type. Superboy, Supergirl, Mon El, Ultra Boy and Star Boy all share or have shared similar powersets with a few variations. Mysa brings a different skillset to the team, and can be just as effective. I thought it was very telling shift in her when she went out to face Kharlak. She had a confident smirk and purple eyes. It was also the first time weíve seen her feet touch the ground. I donít think that was coincidence. With the TPB Curse hint in mind, I think this is Mysa having to literally step down into the real world which will change her.


I hadnít noticed the feet on the ground; this does seem to indicate that sheís connecting 100% to the real world. Time to get her hands dirty.

Quote
Thinking of flaws, this issue has a few. The basic plot seems to have been forgotten, or lost beneath the character moments. Weíve known for some time that the Khunds were sniffing around this sector of the UP. Thatís been well set up. But who actually killed the consul? Who or what actually caused the Earthquakes? Why was a challenge court there in the first place?


Yeah, what consul? Iíd more or less forgotten about him. They can just blame everything on the Khunds.

Quote
Why does Jacques only see other realms when Legionnaires are missing in them? At no point is he haunted by things he canít explain, only for him to be able to save someone from one of them. When it was Dawny, caught in another dimension, it was a Boom Tube effect that Iíve not seen before or since that trapped her. Jacques doesnít have a Plot Power. He has a Sub Plot Power. An ability that only exists to give him a subplot to get into.


Every kid gets a prize, but not every kid gets a Sub Plot Power! Perhaps itís similar to Lyle explaining to Tinya that he saw Mylaís world when he focused on it; Jacques only sees other realms when heís actively seeking somebody. Also itís a new power, so he hasnít had time to explore what he can do with it.

Originally Posted by HWW
This sequence reminding me of Star Trek: Generations, still many years in our pop culture future, in which Picard and Kirk are trapped in a dimension which brings to life their deepest desires. But Picard is able to persuade Kirk he doesn't belong there. Jacques merely punches Drake out. Well, comics always have to be expedient.


That was a memorable Star Trek scene. As you say, comics have to be expedient and maybe they were running out of pages. At least Jacques spent some panel time trying to persuade Drake to leave before resorting to the punch.

Quote
I suppose changing one's skin color in the 30th century might be as common as changing one's hair color is today. However, Levitz was writing to a 20th century audience for whom race was still a touchy subject in the '80s (and, sadly, has become even more so in recent decades). Shady's transformation might make sense, but it should be given some grounding other than "that's the way she looked on the cover of Adventure 354." Comic book myopia.


Creepy and unwarranted connection: this made me think of the racist Daxamites of the reboot - and weíve just seen Daxam turned into a master race by Darkseid. Fortunately, Lar Gand has never shown any such racist tendencies. And weíre happy that Levitz didnít have Shady paint herself white for her fling with Earth Man. Ugh.


Holy Cats of Egypt!
#939523 - 10/25/17 06:45 PM Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 18 [Re: Future]  
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She ran and called him Wildfire.
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The Plateaus of Ecstasy
A few more thoughts on 299:

Overall, I loved the focus on Jacques and Mysa. Both came into their own as characters here. Mysa's confrontation with Kharlak is classic fun: A character who seemed unsure of herself finally struts her stuff.

I loathed the Lyle Norg stuff. Just once, I wish comics could let dead characters rest in peace. (Even Bucky Barnes came back.) In particular, I deplored the "revelation" that Myla was just a mirage and that Lyle was condemned to spend all eternity in this alien hell. Look, I was raised Catholic, and while I don't agree with all of the church's teachings, I like the idea of there being an afterlife and people finding spiritual happiness ever after. That's why the ending of 203 resonated so well with me. If Lyle had to go, at least he went as a hero and got to spend all eternity with the woman he loved. Why not give at least one hero a happy ending?

Of course, we will find out that all is not as it appears, but this little tease on Giffen's part (as I recall, he inserted Lyle into the story without Levitz's knowledge) was left hanging too long and, when it was revisited, it dragged out and lacked a satisfactory conclusion. Ultimately, this was one of the most pointless excursions of Levitz/Giffen.

(It was so bad that I wrote a letter complaining about it. An excerpt of the letter was belatedly published in Baxter Legion # 2, but it was edited so it read as if I didn't mind Lyle's "resurrection." Grrrr.)

I had forgotten about lack of plot resolution in 299 until thoth pointed it out. I guess I just assumed the Khunds had been behind the consul's murder, but we're never given a motive or any plausible reason for the Klingon Challenge Court to teleport onto Asteroid Archipelago. It's a questionable strength of Levitz and Giffen's writing (they are both credited with the plot) that they spend so much time developing the characters that it almost doesn't matter if the plot makes a lick of sense.

The artwork is outstanding, especially various character closeups (Jacques, Dawny, and Mysa throughout) and the imaginative other dimension. Two panels which stand out to me are the top and bottom panels on p. 14. In the former, we see two young women bathing in a pool of some sort of liquid. But after Jacques knocks Drake out and carries him off, the two women are revealed to be nothing more than rock formations.




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#939773 - 10/29/17 02:45 PM Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 18 [Re: Future]  
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Originally Posted by HWW
as I recall, he inserted Lyle into the story without Levitz's knowledge


That's a bit of a surprise considering he's a key character in that scene. It's not as though he was just a visual nod. What did Levitz have Jacques do in that realm in his original story I wonder, if this is the case?

It's not one of my favourite subplots either, which I'll definitely come onto when we hit Tales.

Originally Posted by HWW
It's a questionable strength of Levitz and Giffen's writing (they are both credited with the plot) that they spend so much time developing the characters that it almost doesn't matter if the plot makes a lick of sense.


The issue lost lots of points for not resolving a lot of the main plot. Heck, even addressing many of the key plot points smile

Originally Posted by HWW
The artwork is outstanding

Yeah, we're definitely in one of my favourite periods, and it gets better for me in the issue to come shortly I think. It's not just the art though, it's that creative fusion the two of them now have that pays off for each of them. More on that to come too when it changes no doubt.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
#939830 - 10/30/17 06:48 PM Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 18 [Re: Future]  
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He Who Wanders Offline
She ran and called him Wildfire.
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The Plateaus of Ecstasy
I thought Levitz and/or Giffen had mentioned the insertion of Lyle into the story line during their interviews in the Legion Companion, but I couldn't find the reference last night. Lyle truly was a big part of this issue, so a lot depends on how Levitz and Giffen worked together. Giffen says he never sat down with Levitz and worked out story ideas with him, but they would have conversations on the phone or in the hallway, and Levitz would "give [him] latitude to play [his] little games." Their collaboration eventually evolved into a game of one-upmanship (pp. 141-142).


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#939832 - 10/30/17 09:24 PM Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 18 [Re: Future]  
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Chaim Mattis Keller Online content
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He Who Wanders:

Quote
as I recall, he inserted Lyle into the story without Levitz's knowledge


That wasn't this story, it was the final page of LSH # 310, when some sort of bomb went off at the end of the Omen/Prophet story, that he inserted Lyle into without Paul's knowledge (which turned into a follow-up storyline to this issue).


Chaim Mattis Keller
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#939839 - 10/31/17 01:44 AM Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 18 [Re: Future]  
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Ah, that really shows the one-upmanship HWW refers to while not derailing this issue. It also begins to explain some of the issues I have with the folow up tale.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
#939840 - 10/31/17 03:06 AM Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 18 [Re: Future]  
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LSH #300 The Future is Forever by paul Levitz & Keith Giffen, art by Keith Giffen & Larry Mahlstedt, Colours by Carl Gafford, Letters by John Costanza; guest artists Kurt Schaffenberger, Howard Bender & Frank Giacoia, Curt Swan & Dan Adkins, Dave Cockrum, James Sherman, Joe Staton & Dick Giordano

[Linked Image]

Superboy arrives in the 30th century, followed by Supergirl, for a Legion ceremony. They are welcomed by Legionnaires, then Jacques appears with disembodied Wildfire hovering over his shoulder. Both Supergirl and Jacques seek Brainiac 5, who is at the Time Institute with Rond Vidar and Cirvadia Senius.

They are treating a patient who ďshowed up screamingĒ years earlier and, after learning that he was in touch with other realities, developed a machine to view those realities. The reader learns that this patient is someone who was given bad news by the Legion, news which he already knew. As the patient dreams, the viewer shows visions of other timelines that the Legion might have followed. The initial visions show a young Legion; succeeding ones portray older or fully adult Legionnaires. In each, a Legionnaires fight a major foe. In the first, a very young Legion joins Superboy against Lex Luthor; Superboy decides that he must leave the Legion forever.

The other visions set the Legion against Computo, the Fatal Five, the Khunds, Mordru and the Dark Man aided by a traitorous Blok. In each, numerous Legionnaires are killed and the patient suffers agony. We gradually get hints to the patientís identity, then learn that it is Ferro Ladís twin brother, Douglas Nolan.

Between these visions and the Time Institute team mulling over what to do next, the story follows Shady and Mon-el as they fight a Khund attack on the Science Asteroid. Shady appears to die in an explosion, but in the end appears in her new bodysuit costume and still with white skin. The reader also gets an update on Reep and R.J., who greet Mysa and explain that they are en route to Durla.

The final vision shows Douglas Nolan taking his brotherís place in the Legion; this ďcuresĒ the patient by allowing him to disappear into that desired reality. Brainy acknowledges that he doesnít understand alternate worlds but they have ended Nolanís suffering and he for one is content to live in the universe he knows.

The final page shows the entire Legion, along with R.J. Brande and guests the Subs, the Heroes of Lallor. the Wanderers,Vidar, Senius, Ayla Ranzz, Tenzil Kem, Gymíll, the bookís creative team and a Bat silhouette, posing before their HQ.


Comments:

This is the Brainiac 5 Iíve liked so much. Pushing the limits of science, but compassionate; he appreciates life, he has friends, can be philosophical and admit he doesnít have all the answers Ė and gets to spend some time with Kara at the end.

Although it was in Ferro Ladís story when he joined the Legion, I donít think I recalled that he had a twin brother, so the patientís identity was initially a bit of a surprise. The clues seem pretty evident today.

The framing sequences with Brainy, Rond and Senius are interesting for their discussion of parallel worlds, but serve mainly to move the story from vision to vision.

The Shady-Mon-el story settled the Shadow Woman death prophecy (or did it? ;)). It was a bit of a tease and it certainly looked like sheíd been killed in that explosion. Thereís no explanation of how she was saved and why she had no injuries. Maybe the white makeup is now used to camouflage her burns. We donít know how much time passed between the explosion and carting off the casualties, so she could have been in sick bay for a couple of days.

I donít have much to say about the visions. Theyíre might-have-beens and have a higher body count than any ďrealĒ Legion history. My favourites were the ones in which they battled the Khunds (for its addressing the no-kill/kill code) and Mordru, for its complexity and Legion spirit. The panels with Nura and Thom in the Khund vision really struck me the first time I read this issue; she looked a bit sharp and heíd lost his neck, but they were together and had a happy family Ė and were now on the side of condemning killing, of which Thom had been accused so many years earlier.

Thereís a bit of story in that final group image. The Legion couples are side by side, although Dawnstar is separated from Wildfire, hovering behind Blok who holds his containment suit. Mon-el and Shady are the only couple touching. Mysa is floating above the ground again. Ayla is off with the guests, Duplicate Boy attends despite his acrimonious parting with Violet. Cham looks surprised at something his father has said. Jan, cross-armed, stares (or glares) at Nura. Tinya, cross-armed, looks concerned. Brin and Dawnstar seem to be having a moment. Proty is with the group, so whoís taking the picture?

There was a contest in the letters page, offering some Giffen art to anyone who figured out which artist drew which character on the cover. I havenít looked ahead to see if a winner was announced, but did anyone here enter Ė or have figured out the solution? Itís well beyond my artist-detection abilities!


Holy Cats of Egypt!
#939846 - 10/31/17 10:42 AM Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 18 [Re: Chaim Mattis Keller]  
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He Who Wanders Offline
She ran and called him Wildfire.
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The Plateaus of Ecstasy
Originally Posted by Chaim Mattis Keller
He Who Wanders:

Quote
as I recall, he inserted Lyle into the story without Levitz's knowledge


That wasn't this story, it was the final page of LSH # 310, when some sort of bomb went off at the end of the Omen/Prophet story, that he inserted Lyle into without Paul's knowledge (which turned into a follow-up storyline to this issue).


Thanks for the correction, Chaim.


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#939863 - 10/31/17 06:25 PM Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 18 [Re: Future]  
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LoSH 300

Thereís a lovely weight to this book that, along with the lovely optimistic group shot on the cover and the gold anniversary logo that brings a smile. The three founders are front and centre with the Krypton cousins flying on either side. Lots of, but not all, couples are together too which is a nice touch in a cover that is a group effort by lots of top artists. Having Proty II take the picture is delightful.

The story opens with the return of Superboy to the 30th century. Where his first appearance with the Legion required the three founders to take him there, now Superboy travel through time himself if he wants to see his friends.

Although Superboy has travelled back as soon as Darkseidís Omega Beam has worn off (although he doesnít seem too anxious about what he would find), he does struggle to adapt to what he sees. Itís a sign that heís not there as often as he once was. Thatís reinforced by the Legion looking having visually aged since their early appearances.

Kal travelling through a time tunnel to the see the Legion and being surprised at the changes is also the opening scene to the Adult Legion story way back in Adventure 254.

An arriving Supergirl tells them that she also finds the confusion of time travel one reason why sheís no longer active. Kara asks after Brainy in a casual way. But as itís the first thing she asks about when she arrives it tells older readers how close the pair are.

Jacques is also looking for Brainy. The Coluan is supposed to be trying to cure his sister, in a reminder of an ongoing subplot, but he has been called away urgently. This is a nice set up to the main story. Itís introduced casually, but there have already been some subtle hints both here and at the end of last issue (well, the blurb at the end of last issue was a bit blatant).

Above Jacques is a disembodied Wildfire, who is ďhauntingĒ Invisible Kid having been brought back from that mysterious realm where he was human. Drake has been specially dyed so the Legion can see him. When he first tried to contact the Legion when his suit was destroyed only the reader could see him, so that was well remembered by Levitz.

Drakeís appearance as an energy blob is taken lightly. But he has tried so hard to maintain his humanity since his accident. Seeing him like this, strips all that away from him. Has Drake finally accepted that he no longer has a human form, and that he no longer needs to take one? Has it affected his sense of humanity that remained? Jacques seems to think Drakeís actions are a nuisance, rather than questioning himself for denying Drake his wishes. This could have been an important subplot for both characters, but itís not really addressed.


At the Time Institute Querl meets Rond Vidar and Circadia Senius. Circadia was introduced in the fill in issue in #295. There a rogue Green Lantern, Vidar, tried to learn the secrets of the universe after his master, the Guardians, stopped the Institute form discovering them.

Rond is primarily known for inventing the time cube and helping to defeat his father Universo. Issue #295 established that Universo was also Vidar, adding a new layer to both charactersí backgrounds. Rond has been offered a post at the Institute and he has quickly found a way to help a patient who is housed there.

But who is the patient? Why would he need to be kept at the Time Institute? As the trio travel through the complex to see him, we learn that he has been there for years and that he has the ability to perceive other realities or timelines. But he experienced pain as he was trapped in this one. Rond has found a way to let the others view the timelines the patient sees. He hopes that Brainy can use this information to help the patient find one that brings him peace.

We see the patient suspended in pain above a control room, and his visions beginÖ

Itís as good a framing sequence introducing parallel worlds as youíre likely to get. Thereís a huge clue to the identity of the patient, just from the outfit heís wearing. But far from everyone will have read 254/255 (I wouldnít have, when I first read this) and Levitz proceeds on that basis, offering clues as the story progresses.

A number of the techniques that Levitz and Giffen have shown almost since the start of their run pay off in this issue. Levitz enjoys using the time between scenes in the main plot to further subplots. Here, the subplots become stories from other universes. Framing sequences have also been done well, such as the GL Archive issue. Querl, Circadia (have to stop myself adding the ďnĒ on the end of this aptly named character) and Rond perform a similar function here.

Thereís a very unusual structure to the issue. We have five vignettes, each within an alternative universe. I see these as a bridge between the imaginary stories of the Silver Age and the Elseworlds of later years. Each would stand towards the top of any stories from those eras. This is particularly the case because of the attention to detail shown for Legion history, if only to know when to tweak it in new, and often disturbing, directions.

We have dual plots acting as part of the framing sequence. The first are the discoveries of the scientists. Sure, as the visions progress, they deduce the nature of them and formulate a way of solving the problem. But the real discovery for Querl is as much one of humility and embracing the emotional side of his being. Itís only by fundamentally questioning the things heís been most proud of that he opens himself to what the patient has been looking for all along. Itís a far more open, contemplative Querl Dox that leaves the Time Institute to go to the Legion ceremony.

The second dual plot involves the patient himself. He is on a quest of discovery just as much as the scientists have been. Heís searching for a release from his current existence, but is willing to undergo a huge amount of pain in his search for an ideal world. With the help of the scientists, heís able to find such a place. He has seen so many universes go wrong, that he will bring so much to a universe where things can be right.
Of course, that could be a real problem in itself. Thereís as many dark outcomes for Andrewís final home as there are positive ones. But letís hope for the best.

Linking the alternate worlds, the scientists and particularly the patient is the story involving Lar and Tasmia. On one hand itís a continuation of their vacation, in an area already well known from previous issues to be swarming with Khunds. But itís also a meta plot, directed straight at the Legion reader. It links this story with Adventure #254/255, the identity of the patient, a particular future heís desperate to avoid and Tasmia herself.

Beyond that main framing sequence, we have another layer. One of celebration that embodies the lessons that the rest of the cast will learn through the patientís visions.

So, itís not a story structure youíre going to see too often. smile

To Levitz credit, he doesnít hit the reader around the head with his solution to the Adult Legion stories. The closest the book came was the next issue blurb in #299.

Tasmia has changed her appearance to match that of Adventure #254ís cover, where sheís shown to have died. She is on vacation with Lar at the location mentioned on her memorial. She does have her life threatened in the issue. But she survives. Thatís not to say that Tasmia will not meet a similar fate, although the chances of such a make-up and name switch seem remote.

If anything, itís this that strikes me as a forced part of the story. Shadyís changing appearance had to happen so that there was an easily recognisable hook to the Adult Legion future. Although the costume change subplot had been built over several issues, the move between Tasmia declaring herself Shadow Woman and the payoff was far too short. Had she died, she would surely have been memorialised as a blue skinned Shadow Lass, not as someone who had an odd taste in make up for the last ten minutes of her life.

Itís the departure of the patient, Douglas Nolan, from our universe that means that itís very unlikely that the Adult Legion stories will be fulfilled.

In a world of retcons and reboots anything is possible and itís having that sense of mystery and possibility back, that the story is about.

But really it never left. Writers seemed trapped by the thought of the Adult Legion stories hovering off into the future, just beyond the Time Trapperís Iron Curtain of Time. This future was held onto tightly. No doubt because of the simple, powerful portrayal of the Legionís future. Marriages, deaths, retirements and children. Not a peek, but a tour of the lived lives of our heroes.

The Legionís history is full of continuity tweaks, but little had blatantly contradicted the Adult Legion story. As a result, it gained a weight of probability as time wore on.

But even before the diverging point in this story, Levitz deviates from the Adult tale. In that story, Douglas had overcome his initial hatred of the Legion. It was only after being mind-controlled later, that he turned on the group. He had shared a mental bond with his brother that caused him great distress when Andrew died. Douglas had not spent years in Brainyís care though, and clearly got over his pain by himself. I felt this story could have aligned itself just a little more closely to Douglasí life, as covered in the Adventure tale.

Levitz also indulges in a bit of light retconning, as he details Brainyís history of invention and association with the Time Institute. He helped with the Time Bubble before there was a Legion and built the Time Beacon for example. I wonder what Harmonia was up to? smile

Douglasís transference into the body of an alternate self is yet another example of a Legion theme. First we had Proty sacrificing itself for Garth. Then Eltro did the same for Lar and there was an issue where an Titanian Psycho-Beast was transferred into Wildfire using the same equipment.

Sacrifice is a key theme throughout this story, linking the framing plot to the short tales.

The first vision, drawn by Kurt Schaffenberger, sees a young Superboy face off against Luthor in Smallville. The villain has used two robots to capture Pete Ross and Lana Lang and Superboy ans seems sure that Superboy canít save them at super speed. Superboy doesnít need to as Pete Ross, who has no idea why heís an honorary member of the Legion, summons the heroes from the future to disable the robots.
Invisible Kid and Colossal Boy then take down Luthor.

Itís a simple end to a story. But once Kal takes Luthor off to jail, it takes a darker turn after he travels through time (just like ďourĒ Superboy at the start of this issue) to the future where Pete, Lana and the others are due to hold a meeting.

A sad Superboy tells Rokk that heís going to resign. Ma and Pa Kent have died and heís sworn to Pa that he will protect the Earth. He feels that this means the Earth of his time and so there will be no more trips to distant worlds or through time. Itís a hard decision, as he moves from Superboy to Superman.

Before he goes in to tell the others, he shares a moment with Imra that really shows their long and deep friendship. Levitz has actually foreshadowed this in a scene in #291, where Saturn Girl couldnít tell Superboy that his parents died from a fever.

The Legion knew that something happened to Superboy in the past, as he didnít take humanity to the stars or become an even bigger legend across the galaxy, following his decision here. It highlights an issue that the Legion should reasonably know how a few things roughly turn out. Even after a few world wars. Itís a problem that would rear its head during Crisis, where the fates of a few characters could have been handled a little better. Perhaps this is another reason why Levitz chose not to mix the Legion with the past of the DCU, if he could help it.

The vision brings the patient no release. But itís important that it features Superboyís sacrifice. He gives up a large part of his life to honour an oath.

Brainy knows that their Superboy was a legend across the galaxy, and that the details of his resignation donít match what they know. The trio at the institute wonder if their patient is imagining these possible worlds, or if he is able to view alternate timelines. To find out more, they view a second vision.

This second story, drawn by Howard Bender, starts on a dark note with the Legion and the Subs mourning a number of their lost comrades on Shanghalla. In this world, Computo had allied itself with the Legion of Supervillains. The Legion were slaughtered by Brainiacís invention. The villains have already begun to turn on each other, but a brave Legion, under Saturn Girlís leadership return to free Earth. Ayla saves Saturn Girl, who then uses her telepathy on Lightning Lord. But more super villains are on the way as Luornu, Brek and Gim launch a desperate attack on Computo. As Luornu dies, Brek lowers its temperature killing everyone in the room. Itís a chilling scene in a lot of ways. Itís a victory for the Legion, but a very bitter one. The patient screams in pain, almost breaking free of his restraints, as the vision ends.

The scientists note that the reaction was in response to seeing the death of Legionnaires. Itís another example of great sacrifice, connecting it with the first vision. Where that one was before the Sun Eater adventure, this one would be set after it.

Itís hard for Brainy to view this one since he created Computo. Benderís art focuses on the characters rather than much background detail. But it seems to give the story a lot more resonance is the reader is focused on this final struggle. The emotions are all too real as the team give their lives for freedom, their lost comrades and each other. The Legion are using archaic flight belts, and this would have been the first time Iíd have seen the giant retro Computo (possibly excepting the current subplot in the reread issues). Even Lightning Lord seemed to have though the death had ended, even as he goes out to kill again.

Interestingly, Polar Boy would attempt the same solution to end the threat of Tharok at the end of v7. I wonder if it crossed Levitzís mind to produce a similar conclusion.

Picking up from last issue, Mon El and Shadow Woman face a humanoid shaped construct. Itís at odds with pretty much everything Iíve seen the Khunds use. I wondered for a long time if there was a specific mention on how Shadow Woman died in the adult legion stories. But I donít think I ever saw one. Ears aside, Iím reminded of the Faceless Hunter of the Forgotten Villains team whenever I see it.

Reducing the stimulus, the patient is guided into his next vision, drawn by Curt Swan. There, we see the Fatal Five attack a cruiser. They are about to kill one of the crew when the Legion arrive. But itís the Adult Legion.

The Legion defeat the Five quite easily, as itís something theyíve been doing routinely throughout the years. Returning to Legion HQ, we see some more parallels to the Adventure 354/355 story. But itís a different Legion and this tale really begins to separate out the possible futures that could await our team.

We get a further view of a hall of heroes, distinct from that earlier tale. It contains heroes who were alive in that earlier tale. The HQ is similar, as Levitz cleverly points out by telling us that Imra had also tried to help Douglas when he first arrived.

Showing the fate of Shadow Woman on her memorial is also a good link for readers who would not have seen the earlier tale, and a chilling reminder to those that had.

Karate King and Sun man discuss the fallen heroes. Everyone in this tale had not only made sacrifices, but also many smaller decisions that may, or may not have had tragic outcomes.

Their discussion on what might have been is a summation of the wider story. Their message to just go on living is one not only to us, but to Douglas and Querl too.

It certainly shapes Brainyís response, not only for the problem at hand, but in his thoughts at the end of the story, providing a solid mid-point in his character arc in this issue (well done to Levitz for having such things going on with so much else happening).

To emphasis the possible futures of an Adult Legion the next tale, drawn by Dave Cockrum, starts with a beautiful alternate space station headquarters (was this an early Legion World? smile )

Within, a meeting is taking place under the watchful eyes of fallen heroes, linking the theme of sacrifice to the earlier stories. Interestingly, Andrew and Lyle are shown. They have already died in our main continuity. Tasmiaís portrait is central, as a further reminder of the plot of this issue. But Val is the other one shown. Although this was drawn by Cockrum, I wonder if Keith didnít have a say in what went into this panel description smile

This meeting goes right to the heart of the Legion. The UP is at war with the Khunds, and are isolating the Legion as they are not prepared to kill. Like the best of the older stories, personalities shine through very quickly, with the team split on whether to discard their code.

Gim, Jo and Drake agree to drop the code, while Troy, Jan and possibly Querl are on the other side. The motion is carried, and Superman departs never to return.

Itís a very poignant moment as we live in a world where convictions are easily compromised in the face of what weíre told are more important considerations, even as they turn out not to be anything of the sort. Where bravery, patriotism and humanity are simply traits to exploit.

Years later, this would be picked up in Kingdom Come. Having had so long to reflect on a response to Supermanís position, they had Wonder Woman essentially say it was easy for him, as he had heat vision, by which she meant had plenty of super powers to stop villains. Of course, the opposite it also true as Superman could so easily have chosen another path in dealing with conflicts.

We see some of the repercussions through the eyes of retired Legionnaires as they watch a militarised Legion attack Khund forces with abandon. They are now the Legion Brigade, reminding me of the time the Justice Society became the Justice Battalion.) Reep uses a rifle to attack. Levitz keeps the reader in suspense about his lost powers even in an alternate universe smile

A nice link to the Adult Legion story is that the pair watching are Nura and Thom, who had married and retired in that story. They also mention Rokk as being married which was also shown in that earlier issue. Thom looks every bit as powerful as when he had his original powers, while Nura has rarely looked better.

Tyroc is the first to fall. I always think that pretty much sums up what the writers thought of him during this period.

In v4 the Khunds attacked the UP. For all the reputation that volume has, it didnít come anywhere close to the suspense and moral dilemma of this small glimpse into another world.

Weíve already been told that the visions are very short-lived. As the issue goes on, they become shorter in the book as Douglas flits through universes, powered on by a team that know they are close to a solution. To further reinforce this, they cut out the interludes of Brainy as one vision merges into the next. Itís a great bit of pacing on multiple levels.

By this point, Brainy is thankful that these visions could just be nightmare creations of Douglasí mind. But his earlier thoughts tell the reader that he already suspects a darker truth.

But anyone would need some consolation in the face of Mordru conquering the Earth. The Legionnaires were genuinely scared of Mordru when he escaped in Adventure #369. In that story, we were told that there had been a previous encounter between the two groups. Set in an alternate Earthwar, we see the last desperate resistance of a galaxy conquered by the sorcerer. And itís terrifying both in concept and as drawn by Jim Sherman.

Mordruís powers are immense. He towers over the city, as his battle form did in his original chronological encounter against the Legion. His demons hunt doomed citizens on the broken streets below. He constructs a hit list of the Legionnaires he has already killed, even as he sends out hordes of embryonic demons to hunt down the survivors. Mordruís hit list would be seen in another form as Giffenís ornate chart at the start of the Baxter series.

Garth, Imra and Ayla have retreated to Korbal where they use Garthís powers to hold off the demonsÖfor now. On Orando we see villains we know such as Hagga aligned with Nura and Jeckie to counter Mordruís magic with their own. They have help from the resistance on Mordruís homeworld: Mysa. The demon hordes attack those guarding the palace, as they conclude their spell. Rokk and Dirk are horribly killed as their spell succeeds. Magic is drained from the universe. But it takes the casters with it, spelling (sorry!) the end of all present. The few surviving Legionnaires are shown defiant of the vanquished Mordru and determined to rebuild. So many of their colleagues have sacrificed their lives so that they, and the galaxy could live.

This short story is a lot more satisfying in general plot than the Magic Wars turned out to be. Both contained the ascendancy and fall of Magic in the UP, and the sacrifice of at least one Legionnaire. Both had a key ritual and also ended up with a galaxy that required rebuilding. That rebuilding, and the reformation of a splintered Legion, would be picked up form here as key themes in v4.

Also in v4 would be another alternate timeline/ world, where Mordru would conquer a Legion-less galaxy. In that story, the key resistance figure was also Mysa. Mordru would be given a moment of realisation there too, as another fatal spell took effect.

While distancing the Legionverse from the Adult Legion stories that had gone before, a lot of the design here similarly proved too hard to resist for future creative teams, and Levitz himself, to ignore.

As an aside, thereís a Moby video called Go. In it little globes containing bicycling men cascade across the skies. I got chills every time I watched it, thinking of Mordruís demon embryos. smile

The next vision, drawn by Joe Staton, realises all those dark hints that early Blok appearances contained. Blok has been accepted as a Legionnaire. But he has never given up his allegiance to the Dark Man. He watches as the Legion bicker among themselves. Itís highlights the Marvel style confrontation between members, and I read Blokís response as being a bit of dark humour at what passed for plotting in so many of those stories, as entertaining as they were. Of course, Blok is no better in blowing up the headquarters as he dismisses his new team.

But, as always, thereís a lot more going on. Blok doesnít just go through the motions here. Heís choosing his path. Heís seen the Legionís version of events on Dryad. Heís seen them as a team. And he chooses not to believe them. In our continuity, Blok chose the Legion. But we didnít really get a deep understanding as to why, other than he clearly didnít agree with the super assassinsí methods. Then there were occasional dark words coming from the former super assassin. I like this darker side to Blok. Not simply because he could be a villain. But because of the learning and choices he has to make along the way. It would explain why he spends so much time in the Legion archives for a start.

Dawnstar finally reaches out to another Legionnaire, only for him to cold shoulder her and kill everyone. Thatís another choice Blok makes. Weíre reminded of Dawnyís salary and origin. Perhaps she shares some of these feelings in the ďmainĒ Legion world, which adds to her choice to remain separate from a lot of it. A short peek, but with (finally) plenty of characterisation on two not too recent Legionnaires. A saddened silhouette of Dawnstar is a great image, and she could be an angel of death dutifully waiting for the end of Blokís actions.

Like the preceding tales, this one would also go on to have a later influence. The breakdown of the team has started and this story explicitly has the UP looking to disband it. That would be a starting point for much of v4. The way in which the Legionnaires left is also paralleled in a domino effect way by the five year gap. Here, Querl and Tenzil donít recover. Jo is never found after being blasted by space pirates. In another bit of deliberate humour, this at least spares this universe from the Reflecto Saga smile

Tinya leaves to mourn him, which would be reversed for v4. Salu leaves following the issue of Imskian hunting rights and the domain of Imsk would provide a lot of backstory for her and Rokk in v4.

Blok would also go through portals on similar self-discovery towards the end of the Baxter run.

As he learned from Val and Dirk earlier, Querl also learns from Blokís decision. He sees the loneliness in the Dryad hero and the search for a place to belong and believe in. Querl realises that Douglas is similarly looking for such a place. As Blok chose a path with the Legion, Douglas could also be offered respite and a similar path.

The final vision is a short one as Douglas finally finds a universe where he can be the replacement for his dead brother, who gave his life that the galaxy might live. Douglas will get to selflessly follow in his brotherís footsteps. After all heís seen, no one would be more likely to sacrifice himself if required than him.

Perhaps in this reality, Douglas can get the Man in the Iron Mask origin Ferro Lad came from. Behind the mask, he will be recognised as the rightful heir to the throne and marry Jeckie. Itís better than being recognised as one of the rival twin princes and being murdered in Jeckieís tower. ;smile:

Actually, one other thing that this issue showed was what was behind the masks of the Ferro twins. It was considered to be a disfigurement. Itís a shift from him originally intended to be black, but neither say much about Future Folks. Or rather, what Ď60s Comic Folk thought Future Folks would be like.

Whatever happens in this alternate universe, itís a better outcome than Douglas got in the adult Legion story. No one offered him membership there, after he recovered. It was descendants of Mxyzptlk and Luthor who got in (wearing metallic suits just as an extra snub to poor Douglas!). Itís a nice separation from the Adult story even as Douglas leaving the Legionís Earth diverges from those Adult stories.

With that layer done, the other Adult Legion layer can be addressed. Shadow Woman is blasted by the Khundian vessel. Itís not clear how she survives. By showing Mon El with Queeg, thereís even a brief hint that she didnít. But Levitz has clearly done what he wanted to achieve so doesnít seem to see that as important for the suspension of disbelief. Her costume damaged (again) Shady moves onto a new one, further distancing everyone from the Adult Legion storyline. I think the white make up on the last couple of panels is in error, as sheís shown with her natural skin colour in the following pin up.

The pin up takes us back to the opening framing sequence. Rond and a newly invigorated Brainiac 5 have made the ceremony. Itís one of optimism of the possibilities to come, as well as a tribute to the 25 years since their creation.

Thereís lots of fun in the pin up too. Reep looking across to RJ, who as financial backer has blagged his way into the main shot, rather than being on the gallery (why didnít Lester Spiffany try this? smile); Brin getting stuck behind Dawnyís wings and the ďguest starsĒ in the gallery. Lots of couples make it sweet, while a touch of bitterness is added by Jan, still sulking over Nura as leader.

This was a gateway issue for me, into the history of the Legion. I picked this back issue up well before I got any of the Adventure ones. So, I got multiple versions of the groupís history instead of one. I was, and still am, impressed with Shermanís art. But thereís plenty of quality in all of the others too.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
#939893 - 11/01/17 02:25 PM Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 18 [Re: Future]  
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,150
Chaim Mattis Keller Online content
Wanderer
Chaim Mattis Keller  Online Content
Wanderer

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,150
New York, NY, USA
This issue stands out as the platonic ideal of a comic book anniversary issue. Present-day framing story with representative flashbacks to every past era, every main character in the series' history makes an appearance. Paul Levitz tried to re-capture that magic in the 30th anniversary issue of Legion (Baxter) # 45, but that one suffered from the narrow focus on Lightning Lad.

Although it is never mentioned or suggested in the series, I found it an interesting coincidence that Douglas Nolan's visions started right after Wildfire's and Jacques's penetration into what turned out to be some sort of dream dimension. Following the elimination of alternate Earths following the Crisis on Infinite Earths (and before DC decided they needed to bring the multiverse back), I re-defined this story, in my Legion Help file, as the demon from that dream dimension (revealed later to be the true identity of the Lyle Norg that Wildfire and Jacques met), suddenly presented with a portal to the real world, making mental contact with Douglas, and that being the place where Douglas eventually disappears into.


Chaim Mattis Keller
ckeller@nyc.rr.com
Legion-Reference-File Lad
#939910 - 11/02/17 05:13 AM Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 18 [Re: Future]  
Joined: Sep 2004
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Dave Hackett Offline
Dave Hackett  Offline


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At the time, being a new reader, I thought the Douglas Nolan developments were an ongoing subplot finally being resolved. They talk about him showing up years ago, and they've been working on this for a while, so I figured that actually happened in the book. It really struck me as odd when I found out later that this was the first we actually know about this. Given the tight subplotting and foreshadowing this run has had, it's surprising they didn't drop hints leading up to this.

I was reading horror books at the time, so thought I was pretty unflappable, but that image of Cos being impaled while his face was torn apart really freaked me out. Even without the blood, it's wild that one snuck into a code-approved book.

#939918 - 11/02/17 11:27 AM Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 18 [Re: Future]  
Joined: Jul 2003
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Fat Cramer Offline
Fat Cramer  Offline


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Cafť Cramer
Originally Posted by thoth lad

Above Jacques is a disembodied Wildfire, who is ďhauntingĒ Invisible Kid having been brought back from that mysterious realm where he was human. Drake has been specially dyed so the Legion can see him. When he first tried to contact the Legion when his suit was destroyed only the reader could see him, so that was well remembered by Levitz.

Drakeís appearance as an energy blob is taken lightly. But he has tried so hard to maintain his humanity since his accident. Seeing him like this, strips all that away from him. Has Drake finally accepted that he no longer has a human form, and that he no longer needs to take one? Has it affected his sense of humanity that remained? Jacques seems to think Drakeís actions are a nuisance, rather than questioning himself for denying Drake his wishes. This could have been an important subplot for both characters, but itís not really addressed.


Indeed, this could have been a fascinating character study of the two. Wildfire doesnít hang around the HQ out of his suit, so the nonchalance with which this is greeted is hard to understand.

Quote
But who is the patient? Why would he need to be kept at the Time Institute? As the trio travel through the complex to see him, we learn that he has been there for years and that he has the ability to perceive other realities or timelines. But he experienced pain as he was trapped in this one. Rond has found a way to let the others view the timelines the patient sees. He hopes that Brainy can use this information to help the patient find one that brings him peace.


Itís not clear to me whether Douglas showed up on the doorstep of the Time Institute or the Legion HQ. If it was the Time Institute, that would suggest that he himself had some understanding that he was experiencing timelines. If it was Legion HQ, somebody there (likely Querl) suspected it, although it took some time to confirm.

Quote
Querl, Circadia (have to stop myself adding the ďnĒ on the end of this aptly named character) and Rond perform a similar function here.


And I keep reading ďCicadaĒ, because he looks like an insect....

Quote
But the real discovery for Querl is as much one of humility and embracing the emotional side of his being. Itís only by fundamentally questioning the things heís been most proud of that he opens himself to what the patient has been looking for all along. Itís a far more open, contemplative Querl Dox that leaves the Time Institute to go to the Legion ceremony.


Nicely said!

Quote
The Legionís history is full of continuity tweaks, but little had blatantly contradicted the Adult Legion story. As a result, it gained a weight of probability as time wore on.


A good point that this issue breaks the chains of the Adult Legion predictions. Itís not only an anniversary, but a blow for creative freedom.

Quote
Douglasís transference into the body of an alternate self is yet another example of a Legion theme. First we had Proty sacrificing itself for Garth. Then Eltro did the same for Lar and there was an issue where an Titanian Psycho-Beast was transferred into Wildfire using the same equipment.


Interesting theme; there may be more examples, but Iím not coming up with them on the spot.

Quote
The trio at the institute wonder if their patient is imagining these possible worlds, or if he is able to view alternate timelines.


They never really find out, do they? That there are so many deaths in all but the first vision struck me as an angry Douglas wishing revenge on the Legion for his brotherís death. Either he imagined these different timelines, or sought them out for their high body count.

Quote
Interestingly, Polar Boy would attempt the same solution to end the threat of Tharok at the end of v7. I wonder if it crossed Levitzís mind to produce a similar conclusion.


Ah! Missed that one!

Quote
To emphasis the possible futures of an Adult Legion the next tale, drawn by Dave Cockrum, starts with a beautiful alternate space station headquarters (was this an early Legion World? smile )


Brainy should have gone back to HQ with that space station vision in his head and designed it for real.

Quote
But Val is the other one shown. Although this was drawn by Cockrum, I wonder if Keith didnít have a say in what went into this panel description smile


I donít believe this scene has been added to the Giffen-kills-Val count. It should be!

Quote
This short story is a lot more satisfying in general plot than the Magic Wars turned out to be. Both contained the ascendancy and fall of Magic in the UP, and the sacrifice of at least one Legionnaire. Both had a key ritual and also ended up with a galaxy that required rebuilding. That rebuilding, and the reformation of a splintered Legion, would be picked up form here as key themes in v4.


Agreed. This story could have continued the v.7 series, since Levitz discarded the Magic Wars in that timelineís history.


Quote
But, as always, thereís a lot more going on. Blok doesnít just go through the motions here. Heís choosing his path. Heís seen the Legionís version of events on Dryad. Heís seen them as a team. And he chooses not to believe them. In our continuity, Blok chose the Legion. But we didnít really get a deep understanding as to why, other than he clearly didnít agree with the super assassinsí methods. Then there were occasional dark words coming from the former super assassin. I like this darker side to Blok. Not simply because he could be a villain. But because of the learning and choices he has to make along the way. It would explain why he spends so much time in the Legion archives for a start.


Could this have planted some seeds of doubt in readers that Blok might eventually betray the Legion? That would have been a good twist Ė and left us wondering what else might come true. Besides the multiple deaths of Karate Kid....

Quote
The final vision is a short one as Douglas finally finds a universe where he can be the replacement for his dead brother, who gave his life that the galaxy might live. Douglas will get to selflessly follow in his brotherís footsteps. After all heís seen, no one would be more likely to sacrifice himself if required than him.

Perhaps in this reality, Douglas can get the Man in the Iron Mask origin Ferro Lad came from. Behind the mask, he will be recognised as the rightful heir to the throne and marry Jeckie. Itís better than being recognised as one of the rival twin princes and being murdered in Jeckieís tower.


Why didnít the Legion consider him for membership once Andrew had died? It doesnít appear that he was immediately suffering the terrible visions. That might have averted the problem.

Quote
I think the white make up on the last couple of panels is in error, as sheís shown with her natural skin colour in the following pin up.


Iíd like to think itís an error, as you suggest.

Quote
Thereís lots of fun in the pin up too. Reep looking across to RJ, who as financial backer has blagged his way into the main shot, rather than being on the gallery (why didnít Lester Spiffany try this? smile); Brin getting stuck behind Dawnyís wings and the ďguest starsĒ in the gallery. Lots of couples make it sweet, while a touch of bitterness is added by Jan, still sulking over Nura as leader.


Today, Lester would totally photobomb the shot. Absolutely.

Quote
I was, and still am, impressed with Shermanís art. But thereís plenty of quality in all of the others too.


I didnít take to Sherman initially, but that was my favourite of all the artwork in this issue.


Holy Cats of Egypt!
#939919 - 11/02/17 11:29 AM Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 18 [Re: Chaim Mattis Keller]  
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Fat Cramer Offline
Fat Cramer  Offline


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Cafť Cramer
Originally Posted by Chaim Mattis Keller
Although it is never mentioned or suggested in the series, I found it an interesting coincidence that Douglas Nolan's visions started right after Wildfire's and Jacques's penetration into what turned out to be some sort of dream dimension. Following the elimination of alternate Earths following the Crisis on Infinite Earths (and before DC decided they needed to bring the multiverse back), I re-defined this story, in my Legion Help file, as the demon from that dream dimension (revealed later to be the true identity of the Lyle Norg that Wildfire and Jacques met), suddenly presented with a portal to the real world, making mental contact with Douglas, and that being the place where Douglas eventually disappears into.


That's a great possible connection - and a really dark end for Douglas.


Holy Cats of Egypt!
#939939 - 11/02/17 04:05 PM Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 18 [Re: Future]  
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thoth lad Offline
Tempus Fugitive
thoth lad  Offline
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Touring Bgtzl and Bgztl with M...
Originally Posted by Chaim
Although it is never mentioned or suggested in the series, I found it an interesting coincidence that Douglas Nolan's visions started right after Wildfire's and Jacques's penetration into what turned out to be some sort of dream dimension. Following the elimination of alternate Earths following the Crisis on Infinite Earths (and before DC decided they needed to bring the multiverse back), I re-defined this story, in my Legion Help file, as the demon from that dream dimension (revealed later to be the true identity of the Lyle Norg that Wildfire and Jacques met), suddenly presented with a portal to the real world, making mental contact with Douglas, and that being the place where Douglas eventually disappears into.



Page 4 - Professor Vidarís new device finally reaches the patientís visions.
Page 5 Ė Heís been here for years now, ever since he showed up screaming on your doorstep, begging for help.

From that it would seem that Douglas has been having the visions since shortly after the death of his brother, who he shared a psychic bond with.

Perhaps the returning demon actually made a connection with Rond, allowing him to create something that allowed others to see the visions, and to guide them?

Originally Posted by Dave
At the time, being a new reader, I thought the Douglas Nolan developments were an ongoing subplot finally being resolved. They talk about him showing up years ago, and they've been working on this for a while, so I figured that actually happened in the book. It really struck me as odd when I found out later that this was the first we actually know about this. Given the tight subplotting and foreshadowing this run has had, it's surprising they didn't drop hints leading up to this.


I agree, perhaps something with Rond would have built up to this. Or as Chaim suggested, have the visions start at the intrusion of the Dream Demon, with the scientists having to find a cure.

They had Shadyís costume getting destroyed back in the GDS, and the Vidar fill in issue as build up. Lar and Shadyís vacation before the GDS is a starting point for their eventual destination of the science asteroid.


I canít recall if I felt let down by not having the build up. I think 300 was more than good enough to off set any feelings about Douglasí plight being dropped in. Perhaps, because it parallels his troubles in the Adult Legion story, it seems less of a sudden addition.

Originally Posted by Dave
I was reading horror books at the time, so thought I was pretty unflappable, but that image of Cos being impaled while his face was torn apart really freaked me out. Even without the blood, it's wild that one snuck into a code-approved book .


Yeah, there were a few horrible deaths in that one, and it added to the dark appeal of the story.

Originally Posted by Cramer
Itís not clear to me whether Douglas showed up on the doorstep of the Time Institute or the Legion HQ. If it was the Time Institute, that would suggest that he himself had some understanding that he was experiencing timelines. If it was Legion HQ, somebody there (likely Querl) suspected it, although it took some time to confirm.



I took the ďyour doorstepĒ to mean Legion HQ. I agree, to have gone from there to the Time Institute would have to mean that Brainy has some idea what was going on. He says that they ďdiscovered his madness came from being in touch with other realitiesóother timelines.Ē I think that he tried to help cure him, only to find that the reason for the illness was something far larger in scope than he anticipated. They also mention that Imra had tried to help early on. When Brainy and Tenzil had breakdown, perhaps some of the techniques used to help them had already been tried on Douglas.


Originally Posted by Cramer

Originally Posted by thoth


The Legionís history is full of continuity tweaks, but little had blatantly contradicted the Adult Legion story. As a result, it gained a weight of probability as time wore on.



A good point that this issue breaks the chains of the Adult Legion predictions. Itís not only an anniversary, but a blow for creative freedom .



Although, I did also mention that having been freed from the burden of the Adult Legion stories, this issue was itself responsible for many of the events that would enter into the comic later on.





Originally Posted by Cramer

Originally Posted by thoth


Douglasís transference into the body of an alternate self is yet another example of a Legion theme. First we had Proty sacrificing itself for Garth. Then Eltro did the same for Lar and there was an issue where an Titanian Psycho-Beast was transferred into Wildfire using the same equipment.



Interesting theme; there may be more examples, but Iím not coming up with them on the spot.


Likewise, I think thereís others out there, and not just the possession of Sun Boy by someone from Bgtzl.



Originally Posted by Cramer

Originally Posted by thoth


The trio at the institute wonder if their patient is imagining these possible worlds, or if he is able to view alternate timelines.



They never really find out, do they?


I think Levitz says as much in one of the lettercols. It was about freeing up the possibilities, but not necessarily not following a lot of them.

Originally Posted by Cramer

That there are so many deaths in all but the first vision struck me as an angry Douglas wishing revenge on the Legion for his brotherís death. Either he imagined these different timelines, or sought them out for their high body count.


I was thinking that too. In the Adult Legion story, Douglas really hated the Legion after his brotherís death. After realising the sacrifice involved, it took mind control to bring it all back to the surface again. So rage at the death and also at his own torment could easily turn into hate at those who have been unable to save his brother or himself.

As for the high body count, that was just Giffen finding parallel universes to kill Karate Kid in. smile


Originally Posted by Cramer

Originally Posted by thoth


To emphasis the possible futures of an Adult Legion the next tale, drawn by Dave Cockrum, starts with a beautiful alternate space station headquarters (was this an early Legion World? smile )



Brainy should have gone back to HQ with that space station vision in his head and designed it for real.


He does think to try and research the spell that countered Mordru in that segment on page 40. Or perhaps just magic generally with Mysa being on the team. I seem to think he couldnít replicate it, but I canít remember where I read that. Just as well, considering the death toll.


Originally Posted by Cramer

Originally Posted by thoth

But Val is the other one shown. Although this was drawn by Cockrum, I wonder if Keith didnít have a say in what went into this panel description smile



I donít believe this scene has been added to the Giffen-kills-Val count. It should be!


One day Iíll get round to adding all these onto the Hall of Heroes thread.


Originally Posted by Cramer

Originally Posted by thoth

This short story is a lot more satisfying in general plot than the Magic Wars turned out to be. Both contained the ascendancy and fall of Magic in the UP, and the sacrifice of at least one Legionnaire. Both had a key ritual and also ended up with a galaxy that required rebuilding. That rebuilding, and the reformation of a splintered Legion, would be picked up form here as key themes in v4.



Agreed. This story could have continued the v.7 series, since Levitz discarded the Magic Wars in that timelineís history.


While it would have been better, it would have been another alternate future to contend with. Not to mention that half the team would be dead. Legion Lost would become Legion of the Dead!




Originally Posted by Cramer

Originally Posted by thoth



But, as always, thereís a lot more going on. Blok doesnít just go through the motions here. Heís choosing his path. Heís seen the Legionís version of events on Dryad. Heís seen them as a team. And he chooses not to believe them. In our continuity, Blok chose the Legion. But we didnít really get a deep understanding as to why, other than he clearly didnít agree with the super assassinsí methods. Then there were occasional dark words coming from the former super assassin. I like this darker side to Blok. Not simply because he could be a villain. But because of the learning and choices he has to make along the way. It would explain why he spends so much time in the Legion archives for a start. .



Could this have planted some seeds of doubt in readers that Blok might eventually betray the Legion? That would have been a good twist Ė and left us wondering what else might come true. Besides the multiple deaths of Karate Kid.... .


Blokís personality here connects with a number of is earlier appearances. I was always waiting for something to happen with him. Not just that he would become a villain. But that he would make a series of choices that would result in him opposing the Legion in some way.


Originally Posted by Cramer
Why didnít the Legion consider him for membership once Andrew had died? It doesnít appear that he was immediately suffering the terrible visions. That might have averted the problem.


It would have been a good choice, only to have his power turn on him resulting in a breakdown of some kind. A missed opportunity after the Glorithverse, particularly as that had Andrew prominently in it, with a mention of Douglas too.

As it is, he had a short time in the Legion of Forgotten Heroes along with Renkil Kem smile


Iím struck by how much of v4 comes from this.

Brainy framing sequence: Brainy wondering about what would have happened had he not invented the Beacon and questioning what use heís made of it Ė specifically mentioning recruiting Superboy and Supergirl = Time Trapper reveal (and the return of Giffen) that it was all a manipulation and that Brainy hadnít gone anywhere the Trapper hadnít wanted him to.

As this directly follows on from the Trapper having created a pocket universe containing Superboy, issue 300 may be a source for the whole darker feel of the Conspiracy to the break up of the team.

Mordru segment: Recovery from a devastating war against Magic = UP Economic Collapse following Magic Wars. Both this issue and the Magic Wars contain a key sťance scene as does the Glorithverse issue.

Blok segment: Breakdown of the Legion and UP looking to disband it = Five Year Gap

Blok segment: Departing Legionnaires in a steady stream= Pre and Post Magic Wars drain on membership. The switch of Jo/Tinya being an obvious one.


Blok segment: Dissatisfaction of new members Blok and Dawnstar, brought into replace departing members = New members such as Kent, Atmos and Echo leaving the team before Polar Boy became leader.

Computo Segment: The Subs joining the Legion (although the Adult story also had this) = Subs joining the Legion just before the team was shut down.

Thatís just a quick summary, Iíve no doubt there are others in there. The build up to v4 was also replicated in the closing issues of v7 (oddly, just as Giffen came aboard smile ) so #300 got to influence all that too.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
#939942 - 11/02/17 06:15 PM Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 18 [Re: thoth lad]  
Joined: Nov 2003
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Chaim Mattis Keller Online content
Wanderer
Chaim Mattis Keller  Online Content
Wanderer

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New York, NY, USA
Originally Posted by thoth lad
Originally Posted by Chaim
Although it is never mentioned or suggested in the series, I found it an interesting coincidence that Douglas Nolan's visions started right after Wildfire's and Jacques's penetration into what turned out to be some sort of dream dimension. Following the elimination of alternate Earths following the Crisis on Infinite Earths (and before DC decided they needed to bring the multiverse back), I re-defined this story, in my Legion Help file, as the demon from that dream dimension (revealed later to be the true identity of the Lyle Norg that Wildfire and Jacques met), suddenly presented with a portal to the real world, making mental contact with Douglas, and that being the place where Douglas eventually disappears into.



Page 4 - Professor Vidarís new device finally reaches the patientís visions.
Page 5 Ė Heís been here for years now, ever since he showed up screaming on your doorstep, begging for help.

From that it would seem that Douglas has been having the visions since shortly after the death of his brother, who he shared a psychic bond with.

Perhaps the returning demon actually made a connection with Rond, allowing him to create something that allowed others to see the visions, and to guide them?


Actually, I did remember that exchange and was being brief. My intention was that the dimensional breach in the prior story is what made the visions strong enough to be detected in the real world.


Chaim Mattis Keller
ckeller@nyc.rr.com
Legion-Reference-File Lad
#939943 - 11/02/17 07:44 PM Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 18 [Re: Future]  
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He Who Wanders Offline
She ran and called him Wildfire.
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The Plateaus of Ecstasy
300:

I enjoyed reading the reviews above and the seeds of future Legion stories being planted. Of course, none of this was apparent in 1983. Ironically, ďThe Future is ForeverĒ is really about looking to the pastóthe Legionís various pasts and what might have come from those stories. The focus on the past is evident on the very first page, when Superboy, who has hardly been around for a while, flies through the time barrier, just as he did in days of yore. Then Supergirl, who has been even less present in Legion stories for years, arrives to establish another connection with the past.

Two things stand out to me about this opening scene. One is that Kal expects the worst to happen, which allows him to wax nostalgic about Legion weddings and other events interrupted by villains. The second is that our heroes have gathered for a ceremony of some sort. Weíre not told precisely what the occasion isóthe anniversary of the Legionís founding, perhaps, or some other eventóbut it doesnít matter. Our heroes and assorted guests have traversed great distances to be there. The team is that important to them; it feels like family.

This family aspect of the Legion is explored further in the following scenes, when the plot kicks into motion. Brainiac 5 has been called away to help a patient. The eventual revelation that the patient is Douglas Nolan reinforces the idea of family. Doug is Andrewís twin, so he literally is family. More important is the revelation that the Legion has been looking after Doug all these years. Even though he never made it onto the team, he remains part of the Legionís extended family.

At least thatís how Iíve always seen him. Like a lot of fans, I wondered why Douglas, who had the same power as Andrew, never joined the Legion as his brotherís replacement. As an adult now, I understand there may have been many reasons for this. Not everyone wants to be a hero. Not everyone is cut out to be a hero, regardless of who theyíre related to. (The reboot did a great job of establishing different personalities for Andrew and Douglas.) Not everyone wants to join a team where there would be so many painful reminders of the lost loved one. But, as a child, the unanswered question seems much simpler. Who wouldnít want to join the Legion?

This story, then, tells us why Douglas never did soóhe was an invalid for most of these years. Iím not at all bothered by this retcon or other revelations such as Brainy inventing the time beacon and playing a role in the Legion being able to recruit Superboy and Supergirl. Such revelations add depth and back story to the characters without contradicting previous tales. Returning to the theme of family, I loved the idea that the Legion had spent considerable effort and resources to help Douglas all these years. Member or not, heís one of the family.

Reading this story again, another major aspect stands out. The extra length allowed Levitz to tell a complete and satisfying story in one issue. He did the same thing with Annual # 1. A lot of character depth and emotional mileage is covered in both stories, which explore the Legionís history and tie it into the Legionís present. Both stories are also about transformation. In Annual # 1, Jacques transforms from an ill-equipped, out-of-his-depth visitor into a hero. In this story, Brainy is transformed from someone who is more comfortable around machines than people into someone who appreciates the beauty and mystery of the present world. The best stories are about character transformation, and, in comics, deep transformations such as this are all too rare.

Because this story was so long and densely layered, I re-read it in two settings. I read through the second vision last night and the rest of it today. Itís a sign of a good story when you can put it down for a while and look forward to coming back to it.

As for the visions themselves, thoth is correct that sacrifice is a recurring theme. This sacrifice is expressed through death, which is present in each of the dreamsóthough more subtly in the first. In the Smallville sequence, it is the Kents who have died (off-panel); their deaths create enormous consequences for Superboy, the Legion, and the universe. I felt sad that Kal felt he had to give up the Legionóthe closest friends he ever hadóto fulfill his fatherís request. Iím sure thatís not what Pa Kent had in mind. But many lives are irrevocably altered by a misplaced sense of obligation.

The other dreams rely on different Legionnaires dying at different times, and their universe being adversely affected by the events which led to those deaths. There is an almost smug self-assurance to these dreams. We are so fortunate that the Legionís world turned out the way it didóthat they were spared Mordruís takeover, or the Khund war, or Blokís betrayal. This, in turn, made me feel fortunate that certain things in our world turned out the way they did: Hitler was defeated, the Cuban Missile Crisis didnít lead to nuclear war, the Cold War ended peacefully. But today is post-9/11, and we know not every disaster was averted. Todayís news repeats the narrative of some nutcase murdering a lot of people. The naÔve arrogance of 1983óthis couldnít happen to usóseems like a quaint notion.

So it seems with the Legion. The LSH made a positive difference in their universe. The world was spared from doomsday every day in which they did what they volunteered to do. But in Douglas Nolanís visions, even their best efforts were not good enough. Arenít we lucky we live in the ďotherĒ reality, in which things turned out better?

I think thatís another thing I take away from this story: Because the Legionnaires are the heroes, we expect them to winóand they only lose in an alternate reality. In the so-called real world, life is much more complex, and this yearís victory is next yearís cause for reflection and recriminations. This monthís heroes will be next monthís hypocrites or liars.

As an artistic achievement, LSH 300 is wonderful. It is densely layered, incorporates eras of the Legionís past, and cuts ties with the expected outcomes of the Adult Legion. I even enjoyed the Shady bits: the tease over her future, and the revelation (whew!) that she survived. I loved the theme of family, as I described above, and how the familyís past is important in defining who we are. I also loved learning how the seeds of this story grew into later stories (the Magic Wars, for instance). As a personal story on the odyssey of Brainiac 5, it works even better.

But it also reflects the world of 1983, and, in 2017, we have come to realize that the darker outcomes of life arenít restricted to parallel universes.


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#939957 - 11/03/17 04:47 AM Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 18 [Re: Future]  
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Dave Hackett Offline
Dave Hackett  Offline


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The only issue that's left unaddressed to my mind about the whole invalidating the Adult Legion thing, is that Superman DID meet them, and the adult LSV were major characters in the Superman mythos, so how does this square with that? Ultimately it's a moot point because in a few years Crisis will overturn all of it, but there is a bit of a paradox created here.

#940042 - 11/05/17 08:38 AM Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 18 [Re: Fat Cramer]  
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He Who Wanders Offline
She ran and called him Wildfire.
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The Plateaus of Ecstasy
Originally Posted by Fat Cramer

I donít have much to say about the visions. Theyíre might-have-beens and have a higher body count than any ďrealĒ Legion history.


Indeed. The visions reminded me of the Brood and Kulan Gath (I think) story lines in X-Men from around the same time. There was a definite darkening of super-hero stories going on, and this was still a few years before Watchmen.

Quote
My favourites were the ones in which they battled the Khunds (for its addressing the no-kill/kill code) and Mordru, for its complexity and Legion spirit. The panels with Nura and Thom in the Khund vision really struck me the first time I read this issue; she looked a bit sharp and heíd lost his neck, but they were together and had a happy family Ė and were now on the side of condemning killing, of which Thom had been accused so many years earlier.


I, too, appreciated the philosophical exchange over the Legion's code, and how several members felt they had been backed into a corner by the Khunds' savagery . This scene resonates today with many Americans questioning what we've come to consider as American values and how those values seem to hold us back from protecting ourselves. When people fear the enemy, torture seems justified and people from Muslim-dominated countries are unwelcome. Times like these test our values, and, sadly, many people fail the test.

It is disturbing that the Legion thought there were only two options: kill or no kill. Binary thinking does not lead to creative solutions. Fear makes us choose one or the other of unfavorable options without looking for "wiggle room."

It's also interesting that Nura and Thom traced the moral decline of the Legion back to the team's refusal to change to rule barring married couples. There is scientific evidence that people who are married or who have stable, long-term relationships are happier and healthier (see Jonathan Haidt's book, "The Happiness Hypothesis," for one). A team that forces out such people deprives itself of the stabilizing perspective they might bring.

Superman's resignation was understandable, but I couldn't help wondering where he went. Did he abandon the future to its own devices, or did he continue to fight the good fight on his own? The 30th century was not his era, yet he had invested so much of his life into protecting it. It would seem selfish if he simply took his ball and went home.

Quote
Thereís a bit of story in that final group image. The Legion couples are side by side, although Dawnstar is separated from Wildfire, hovering behind Blok who holds his containment suit. Mon-el and Shady are the only couple touching. Mysa is floating above the ground again. Ayla is off with the guests, Duplicate Boy attends despite his acrimonious parting with Violet. Cham looks surprised at something his father has said. Jan, cross-armed, stares (or glares) at Nura. Tinya, cross-armed, looks concerned. Brin and Dawnstar seem to be having a moment. Proty is with the group, so whoís taking the picture?


Automatic camera?

I loved how this group shot departed from the staid "portrait" shots that were the norm. It allowed personalities and relationships to come through. Another interesting tidbit: This isn't Violet, as we all know. So the Legion's "family" is never perfect or complete, as implied by those old portrait shots.



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#940050 - 11/05/17 12:49 PM Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 18 [Re: Future]  
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thoth lad Offline
Tempus Fugitive
thoth lad  Offline
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Touring Bgtzl and Bgztl with M...
Originally Posted by HWW
At least thatís how Iíve always seen him. Like a lot of fans, I wondered why Douglas, who had the same power as Andrew, never joined the Legion as his brotherís replacement. As an adult now, I understand there may have been many reasons for this. Not everyone wants to be a hero. Not everyone is cut out to be a hero, regardless of who theyíre related to. (The reboot did a great job of establishing different personalities for Andrew and Douglas.) Not everyone wants to join a team where there would be so many painful reminders of the lost loved one. But, as a child, the unanswered question seems much simpler. Who wouldnít want to join the Legion?


Renkil Kem came up in passing. It's another example of a relative who is a cookie cutter replacement for the departing hero. But, as you say, real life doesn't work like that. The Legion looking after their own reminds me of them tracking down Chemical King's killer, and the authorities stepping out of their way. These are things that are important to the way the Legion perceives itself, which is something that doesn't get much focus.

Originally Posted by HWW
Iím not at all bothered by this retcon or other revelations such as Brainy inventing the time beacon and playing a role in the Legion being able to recruit Superboy and Supergirl. Such revelations add depth and back story to the characters without contradicting previous tales.


Normally I don't either. But I also don't like a character getting credit at the expense of another or becoming the font of all innovation. I'm not saying this falls into that category, but it adds to later things like Brainy claiming credit for Mon El's serum and Harmonia Li being involved with everything.

Originally Posted by HWW
In this story, Brainy is transformed from someone who is more comfortable around machines than people into someone who appreciates the beauty and mystery of the present world. The best stories are about character transformation, and, in comics, deep transformations such as this are all too rare.


That was the stand out part of the story for me too. Legion writers trying to define Brainy could do worse than reread recent issues, and those shortly to come, to appreciate the struggles and progression the character is capable of. I'm sure a younger me probably focused more on the action and alternate universes, but it's an issue that works on a number of levels (or "densely layered" as you managed to say in two words where I used a whole sentence smile )

Originally Posted by HWW
So it seems with the Legion. The LSH made a positive difference in their universe. The world was spared from doomsday every day in which they did what they volunteered to do. But in Douglas Nolanís visions, even their best efforts were not good enough. Arenít we lucky we live in the ďotherĒ reality, in which things turned out better?

Judging by how much this issue influenced later ones, I think part of Giffen's idea for v4 was to show us that the Legion's reality could just as easily become one of the others. Even then, the Legion's values would still shine through (not that it really got there).

Originally Posted by Dave
The only issue that's left unaddressed to my mind about the whole invalidating the Adult Legion thing, is that Superman DID meet them, and the adult LSV were major characters in the Superman mythos, so how does this square with that? Ultimately it's a moot point because in a few years Crisis will overturn all of it, but there is a bit of a paradox created here.


It could be a mix of the LSV not being quite from our universe, but from a very similar one in the way shown in this issue. Or that the Superman shown in those issues comes from a parallel past that is very similar. Or a combination of both with Levitz comment about transmission difficulties from the future to present day writers. smile

Originally Posted by HWW
Indeed. The visions reminded me of the Brood and Kulan Gath (I think) story lines in X-Men from around the same time. There was a definite darkening of super-hero stories going on, and this was still a few years before Watchmen.


Good point. I think issue #300 definitely played it's part in sinking a thousand smiles, as comics just focused on the violence and gloom, missing all the other messages contained within the inspiring books in the first place.

Originally Posted by HWW
It is disturbing that the Legion thought there were only two options: kill or no kill. Binary thinking does not lead to creative solutions.

No it doesn't, but pretty much sums up a huge number of political decisions made over our lifetimes.

Originally Posted by HWW
It's also interesting that Nura and Thom traced the moral decline of the Legion back to the team's refusal to change to rule barring married couples. There is scientific evidence that people who are married or who have stable, long-term relationships are happier and healthier (see Jonathan Haidt's book, "The Happiness Hypothesis," for one). A team that forces out such people deprives itself of the stabilizing perspective they might bring.


I agree so far with that, but it can lead to just as many issues further down the road, as stability doesn't necessarily equate to fairness, which leads to...

Originally Posted by HWW
Superman's resignation was understandable, but I couldn't help wondering where he went.


He went home in a huff. smile I think the story said he would never return. I read that as meaning to the Legion and their time.

Originally Posted by HWW
This isn't Violet, as we all know. So the Legion's "family" is never perfect or complete, as implied by those old portrait shots.

I wonder how often the real Vi would look at the happy people in this picture. I wonder what she thought of them.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
#940054 - 11/05/17 04:22 PM Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 18 [Re: thoth lad]  
Joined: Sep 2004
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Dave Hackett Offline
Dave Hackett  Offline


Joined: Sep 2004
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Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada
Originally Posted by thoth lad

I wonder how often the real Vi would look at the happy people in this picture. I wonder what she thought of them.


Let's stick a pin in this one until Violet's story rolls around because there's a lot to unpack, but having read ahead a bit, I will say it's surprising that Violet would ever come back to the team at all after what transpired. It's also interesting that Ayla is away from the team almost the entire time Violet is missing.

#940057 - 11/05/17 04:55 PM Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 18 [Re: thoth lad]  
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He Who Wanders Offline
She ran and called him Wildfire.
He Who Wanders  Offline
She ran and called him Wildfire.

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 23,518
The Plateaus of Ecstasy
Originally Posted by thoth lad

Originally Posted by HWW
Iím not at all bothered by this retcon or other revelations such as Brainy inventing the time beacon and playing a role in the Legion being able to recruit Superboy and Supergirl. Such revelations add depth and back story to the characters without contradicting previous tales.


Normally I don't either. But I also don't like a character getting credit at the expense of another or becoming the font of all innovation. I'm not saying this falls into that category, but it adds to later things like Brainy claiming credit for Mon El's serum and Harmonia Li being involved with everything.


I agree that writers can go too far in crediting characters with everything, but I think it works in the context of this story. This man who has achieved so much in his life finds his accomplishments hollow and unfulfilling and chooses to embrace mystery and wonder instead. I suppose Levtiz could have mentioned the creation of the flight rings instead of bringing Superboy and Supergirl into the team. Brainy certainly had enough "actual" achievements in Legion stories without the writer having to invent things.

Brainy played a role in perfecting Mon-El's anti-lead serum, though Saturn Girl invented it. Maybe this is a case of misremembering who did what. smile

I'm not familiar with Harmonia Li, as I sat out that version of the Legion. I don't think I would find her an harmonious addition to the team. smile

Originally Posted by thoth

Originally Posted by HWW
It's also interesting that Nura and Thom traced the moral decline of the Legion back to the team's refusal to change to rule barring married couples. There is scientific evidence that people who are married or who have stable, long-term relationships are happier and healthier (see Jonathan Haidt's book, "The Happiness Hypothesis," for one). A team that forces out such people deprives itself of the stabilizing perspective they might bring.


I agree so far with that, but it can lead to just as many issues further down the road, as stability doesn't necessarily equate to fairness ...


There's a downside to everything, ain't there? wink

Originally Posted by thoth

Originally Posted by HWW
Superman's resignation was understandable, but I couldn't help wondering where he went.


He went home in a huff. smile I think the story said he would never return. I read that as meaning to the Legion and their time.


The "never return" part is left open to interpretation. I can buy him walking out on the Legion, but leaving millions to suffer at the hands of the Khunds? So much in these timelines differs from our familiar timeline--the LSH had abandoned flight belts long before the Computo episode, for instance. Who knows what the situation of this alternate reality might have been?




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