Dan DiDio shatters any presumption that Legion will not be back after L3W. Unfortunately, he doesn't explain why they screwed up with Shooter and Manapul's run from the beginning. From Newsarama:

9: Back towards the subject material of the comics themselves – you mentioned Legion of 3 Worlds, but as we’ve reported, Legion of Super-Heroes ends with issue #50. Can you give any word as to where things are headed for the Legion in 2009? Obviously, in the Legion of 3 Worlds, there is a progression of events that’s suggesting a definite status quo change for the Legion...

DD: Legion of Super-Heroes has been a key franchise to the DC Universe since the ‘60s. It’s appeared in Adventure Comics, Superboy its own series, guest starred in a number of books, they’re going ot be appearing in Smallville very shortly, and have had their own animated television series. To think that after the cancellation of the series with #50 and after the conclusion of Legion of 3 Worlds that we have no plans in place would probably be a mistake.

We’re playing it kind of quiet now because we want Legion of 3 Worlds to play out so people will be excited about the conclusion, and from that conclusion, follow that story to others where those characters may or may not appear.

The bottom line is that Legion of Super-Heroes is a key franchise of the DC Universe, and it will never sit still or quiet for long.

Well, that's very nice, but.

How shall I put it?

DiDio's answer is worth its weight in gold.

I'll start listening when I start hearing specifics.

Dan Didio is tight-lipped about everything DC these days. I think his answer is pretty eloquent under such conditions. In fact, I do believe Adventure Comics will be Legion's new house after L3W and it will be integrated to Superman books.
I just don't know where it leaves L.E.G.I.O.N. at.

Well, the words "probably" and "may or may not appear" don't exactly inspire me with hope . . .

A little correction on the L.E.G.I.O.N. book coming in Feb. I talked to Tony Bedard, writer on the book, on FaceBook and he said the series is titled R.E.B.E.L.S. He also said its ongoing for now.

to paraphrase: we don't know what we're doing!

Probably. I can't say 'definitely be a mistake' because then I'd be lying. But I do kinda have specific plans that 'DC is obviously gonna do *something* with the Legion again someday, 'cause they don't want to lose the property by leaving them fallow too long [Didio pauses mid-explanation to shake his fist at lawyers, particularly those working for the Siegel or Shuster estates], probably after I step down as EIC, or when one of my staff has a really cool multi-crossover epic event planned in which a Legionnaire, or the team as a whole, can be off-handedly mentioned, or depicted in a single panel on page 12 of issue 17 of Infinite Secret Crisis Naked Annhilation War, now with 100% more Alien Zombie Space Apes.'

Please buy lots of our *other* books, where you'll get to see Star Boy acting kooky and occasionally mentioning the Legion, or Tellus in a tube, or hear Batman talk about Karate Kid.

See! We haven't abandoned the Legion! We're perfectly willing to mention them (and occasionally kill some of them off, like Karate Kid and 'Una') in our other books to draw in long-time readers like you!

Certainly not 'long' in a geological sense!

I think we shouldn't read TOO much into Dan's words. Remember it's his job to keep up the mystery and build the excitement ... this is a classic way to escalate the suspense and keep the fans wanting more and more (writing in, posting forums, etc).
To believe that DC doesn't have plans for a new monthy Legion project in the new year is a mistake.
What impact would it have on us if we knew about these plans now?
I for one am willing to wait.

A positive one? Unless, it's plans like...let's kill off every character and/or reboot the team three more times!

Seriously, what would be wrong about saying "We have a new ongoing coming up after L3W! The team itself and the creative team which will bring it to you is TBD!" Otherwise, all the negativity and thoughts against having an ongoing is justified, IMHO.

I think you forgot to use the spoiler label.

Exactly!! I hate the cryptic answers they are given. Just simply say there is a new ongoing coming.

This might not be the coolest thing to say, but Dan Didio doesn't inspire any confidence, at all. The only thing I'm convinced of, is that this is just leading to another reboot, which after a few years or longer, will lead to another reboot. So, I consider LO3W to not be a *jumping on* point, but a *JUMPING OFF* point. It's a way for me to say goodbye to these characters. It's the only comic I've ever picked up. I no longer feel like investing in something that's been so disappointing for the last five years or so. The characters I've followed for so long, are gone.

FIN

Thank you. That is exactly what he should be saying. Unless they seriously want people to think there is a chance that not a single Legionnaire will survive Lo3W (and readers are not that stupid), there is nothing spoiled by saying there will be an ongoing book. Final Crisis involves a threat to the universe that could wipe out everything, but nobody at DC is operating under pretense that the universe will be wiped out and Batman/Superman/Green Lantern, etc. will end as a result.

The constant claim that DC has a "plan" for the Legion strongly suggests that TPTB intends to wait to see what happens with Lo3W. If it is a success, they will come out with an ongoing series several months later. Or maybe that was the original plan, but the early success of Lo3W has convinced them to do an ongoing series. That could be why Lo3W is delayed. By having Lo3W end in the spring, DC could have an ongoing series ready to launch.

How is it that whenever Didio is interviewed I feel like the Mouth of Sauron is addressing Aragon and his united armies?

In his interview Dan Didio states Seems like FC:Lo3w is more FC than first appears. I can't see how the 31st C can impact the 21st C DCU

Way FC:Lo3W could impact the 21st Century: It ends with the 31st century being destroyed, and then the new version of the Legion, set in the 21st century, gradually begins to make appearances in other books.

No. He said that a) the Legion's to important as a franchise, as one of the core incredients that make up DC, to ever be kept on the sidelines for long; and, b), that they want the readers to focus on Lo3W, insteadt to piss about whatever DC may intend for the Legion after Lo3W's over.

Both arguments make sense to me. There's no reason to fear for the Legion's future. Besides, after the "TrashBoot" Legion, everything except a return to 5Yl - the most embarassing Legion era of all time - can be only an improvement.

Well, if you didn't like 5YL and the threeboot, I think it's safe to say that there are *lots* of things DC can do with the Legion that you would not consider an improvement.

Like what, for example?

I mean, right now, the only things I dislike about the ACTION Legion are their costumes, the characterization of Lightning Lad, and their hair cuts.

Given the fact that the current continuity is an amalgam of Levitz & 5YL, and I still still don't dislike the result, most of it anyway, I'm certain DC's going to satisfy my Legion sensibilities. (Though I still can't get over how I much I hate Levitz or 5YL separately, yet manage to get into their love child.)

Though of course, since we can't get the Silver Age or Disco Legions back (at least not at this time), I'd have preferred to have the "Archies" as the main Legion. They rocked.

But since DC obviously doesn't want to go that way, I'll settle for less-- and DC could have done far worse then this interesting Levitz/5YL merger...

i fear for the legion because because when they cancel books and try to make everything fit to things that are going on in the dc universe you get things like clones

because have clones fixes every thing

if some one just said "look we may be takeing your book away but chill we are going to have a new one soon, we want to do this right this time but makeing good stories, and good artwork"

then you know what every one here would be be trying to guess who the team would be, build up excitement, instead of going well dc has done it again

That thought gives me chills.

I'd rather read about a Wildstorm Legion. And I'm not even kidding.

Uh...let's see, what can I come up with that sounds plausible...

What if the Legion became the 31st-century Green Lantern Corps, where their flight rings were also Green Lantern rings, and Superboy-Prime's LSV became the new Sinestro Corps? Superboy-Prime would become the new Ion and therefore the leader of the LSH, and he would start a romance with Night Girl now that she and Cosmic Boy aren't together anymore. Lightning Lad and Bart Allen would merge and become one person, called Impulse. And in their first adventure they'd fight Vandal Savage and a bunch of Earthling xenophobes who want to kill the Legionnaires because secretly they're all descended from the Justice Society.

Shall I go on?

it's your opinion. I personally think that 5YL was far better than the beginnings of the Archie Legion (until DnA made them likeable) and certainly far superior storywise to the threeboot.

My concern is that Lightning Lad is the only character who has been given any semblance of a characterization (beyond a few panels here and there). If his characterization is so out-of-whack, what should be expect of everyone else? I also should add that, in the few panels they have received so far, I have not been a fan of "woe is me" Sun Boy, "I'm thrilled just to be here" Polar Boy, and the whole Colossal Boy/Yera scene dealing with kissing Sun Boy was lame.

Add Wildfire's obsession to the point of nausea over Dawnstar. I prefer Levitz's subtle approach.

I'd go even further and say TMK made me like the Legion of Super-Heroes from beyond the point of "liking" it. Reading that story made me care for the characters and see what was really about the Legion. As the great Darius study on Teenagers of The Future, TMK was a celebration of what was more unique of the book.

And there is nothing worse than the pap of Reboot Legion, which was a mixture of X-Men and Titans (the Judd Winick version) with a lot of PC-plotting. Even though I agree with Matthew E ponts on the aforementioned book, it simply gave me more reasons to understand why it was such a flat book: its premises were very limited. Unlike TMKs.

Johns is not a fan of subtleties. He is the one who read Giffen's Blue Beetle as a bafoon (which means he probably thinks Watchmen's Night Owl is a wimp). He is also the one who thinks Superboy-Prime is a great villain. And he gave us Infinite Crapis. Hardly subtle works. But this is what sells a lot these days: slugfests with as many characters acting the same way (or very unidimentional).
One can only see the reaction to the subtleties of Shooter's characterizations and the backlash they have had in this forum to see that. There might not be a single trace of self-doubt, of incongruency or fear, unless this is the single characteristic of such character.

Yeah, ranting....

Besides transforming Garth Ranzz into Clint Barton, add to that list Rokk Krinn as a shriveled-up eunuch (I sacrificed my sex life for my pals!!) and Imra Ardeen as the personification of "Truth" (which sends me into uncontrollable fits of laughter whenever I think about it). Johns has completely scrambled the personalities and interpersonal dynamics of the Founders trying to reinvent them as aspects of Superman, it follows the rest of his doppelgangers will ring just as false.

Back to the interview...

I find Dido's assertion "The Legion is a key franchise" about as credible as his claim (see question #2) Manhunter and Blue Beetle are "essential to the DC Universe" .

Weasel words. Compare his response to the cancellations of "Nightwing", "Robin" and "Birds of Prey" (question #1). He wasn't reluctant to go into specifics about where *those* characters are going after their series end.

In view of Didio's appalling track record with the Legion over the past 5 years and the fiasco he's made of the Legion's 50th anniversary, it astounds me there are people still willing to trust him.

I'd assume that's Johns' way of letting the uninitiated know about Wildfire and Dawnstar's relationship. I really hope they haven't had this conversation every day for the last, I don't know, ten years since Superman last saw them.

Reading LOTW #2, I was thinking to myself, "I would be much pleased if this was the Legion we ended up with." But I wonder if I'm not letting myself get caught up in the nostalgia. Pretty soon, it would be, "all right, you've got the band back together, now what?" I don't know if another creative team can keep the level of interest as high, and we know we won't have Perez, at least, and probably not Johns for the new ongoing.

And, man, I hope we don't get the amalgated version.

Ditto that.

Beyonder, all of us have our own favorite eras. There's no need to bash someone else's - they can just as easily bash yours.

This isn't the place for that. It's just as easy to say, "Eras X and Y weren't my favorite" as to call those eras "trash."

okay, then...

The Neoclassic Legion clearly is not 100% Levitz, but it works. I myself would be happy to see it as the main Legion, with or without Superman. I would also like to see the occassional Reboot or Threeboot project (or other variant like the 60sesque Adult Legion that popped up in Sup/Bat a couple years ago), when a decent miniseries/one-shot proposal comes forward.

The only thing to fear in my opinion as a completely new fourboot, but I think the Neoclassic Legion's success in Action would make DC honchos take notice and stop trying to reinvent the wheel.

I think the hints of an amalgamated Legion was a red herring. But I admit that would almost certainly be gawdawful.

It depends on how they do it. An amalgamated Legion wouldn't satisfy everybody, but if done right it could be good on its own merits. One of the keys to this, for me, is that the characters keep their memories and personal histories: three Ultra Boys smooshed together into a single Ultra Boy would be terrible.

Principally, you're right.

But believe it or not, Kent: I wasn't trying to "bash" anything, at least not on a conscious level.

It's just that I habor such a strong dislike toward the Levitz, 5YL and ThreeBoot eras, that it's nearly impossible for me to be moderate with my antipathy (or maybe hatred would be a better term) for them.

And my dislike has a reason: I dislike the Levitz era, because he initially warped Legion characterization, to a point that even today, the Legion hasn't recovered from it. Even worse, it was his writing that poisoned Legion continuity, and made it possible in the first place for Giffen to develop what is truly the worst era in the entirety of Legion Mythos.

For 5YL, because it is the devil in the Legion franchise: a foul, dystopic era of ugly, jaded "heroes" stumbling through ugly, dark, jaded worlds, living through dark, jaded and ugly stories that never seemed to end. Of all Legion eras, only 5YL, in all its dirtiness, actually made me be ashamed to be a Legion fan. And calling that particular fossil of the Nineties "mature" doesn't absolve it of its own dirtiness.

And the dirt of 5YL is what makes it inconcilable with a true depiction of the Legion or their world, even more so then the dystopic premise behind 5YL.

After all, the Legion, by definition, is a clean franchise-- unlike Vertigo, for instance. And what sane person would prefer to live in a dark, smelly house in which the dung drips from the walls, if instead he could live in a nice, bright and clean house?

Indeed, calling 5YL "mature" is about as accurate as calling a slash porn about Micky Mouse and Donald Duck "mature". Both 5YL and the Disney porn can't be enjoyed by children, that's for sure; but truly mature comics (or books or movies) can be enjoyed by all ages.
(For starters, compare the clichéd depiction of "Lesbian Lad/Gay Girl" Digby with the mature and meaningful themes of the ReBoot: the Legion existing to bring hope and harmony to a xenophobic universe, Triad's multible personality problem, the Legionnaires being at once both REAL teenagers and yet mature heroes, Kinetix' obvious goodness even though she always was hungering for more power - no one-dimensional cardboard-characterization here! -, Cosmic Boy's complex character - do you really want to compare him to the one-dimensional cipher from 5YL? -, Leviathan, etc.)

And the on-face-of-it-ridiculousness of some aspects of 5YL - most notably "Salu" Gay Girl/Lesbian Lad Digby, Lightning (Proty) Lad and "Sean Erin" - pretty much strips 5YL of whatever little "deeper meaning" 5YL might have claimed to have.

All of this you 5YL fans should consider before you clamor for respect for a piece like 5YL. Don't permit 5YL's hypnotic writing to trap your mind. It was an evil book. In its own way, it was as evil as the Golden Age run of Wonder Woman.

5YL truly was a child of the Nineties. Let it stay there, and let its twisted corpse forever writhe in comic book limbo. If we never again see a series about it, it'll still be far too soon for me. (Though I still want to know just how it fits with the modern continuity.)

As for the ThreeBoot, while I hate it with a passion, in the end, it was merely an period of incredibly bad writing, married to an editorial direction that had nothing to do whatsoever with the Legion. It is nowhere near as toxic to the Legion franchise as Levitz or 5YL. It probably did no lasting damage to the Legion, unlike the "Two Great Enemies".

Uh, no...

Well, we don't know yet that they'll do clones. I wouldn't sweat it...

Okay B-P,CoL,
You say that you weren't trying to bash anything, on a conscious level, but then you launched into an essay about 5YL using the following:

warped
poisoned
worst
devil
foul
dystopic
ugly
jaded
dirtiness
fossil
slash porn
cliched
on-the-face-of-it-ridiculousness
evil
child of the Nineties
twisted corpse

So, how do you think fans of this era will feel when they read this post?

Mmmmm.... strike slash porn. That one was taken out of context. But you *did* use the term within the body of your statement.

"Essay"? More like a detailed Statement...

Anyway, I was describing/evaluating the content/worth of 5YL. But, as usual, whatever my opinions may be, they're certainly very open to debate.

Just what in my evaluation do you disagree with? I'd love to hear your counter-arguments.

Not really. That term was used in comparison to 5YL, so it belongs on your list.

However, you 5YL fans need to know that I'm not "bashing" anything-- I'm specifically bringing up why 5YL is bad for the Legion, for its readers, and for comicdom generally.

You can point out what flaws (if any) in my argument are, but you can't expect me not to say my opinion, just because you don't like them.

If you disagree with it, than you probably got proof why I'm wrong. In that case, post it.

But if you don't have counter-evidence to my evidence, than it seems you know the truth and just don't want it to be brought to the light.

Then you're out of luck.

It's an interesting opinion, when for most of the Legion fans the Levitz era is considered one of the definitive runs on the Legion, and is probably one of the most beloved eras of LSH too... Not to mention the most successful.

I will not even comment on the rest of your post.

Well, "most" Legion fans also call the ACTION COMICS Legion the "original" Legion. I think I'll go with my own opinion, instead. That tends to get sounder results.
After all, it's quality not quantity that counts.

And I understand perfectly that you aren't willing to debate my evaluation of 5YL. I, too, hate losing debates...

Okay, I'll reply inline....

"And my dislike has a reason: I dislike the Levitz era, because he initially warped Legion characterization,"

You say warped, I say enhanced. There are too many characters to talk about how each of them were warped, but my opinion is that each Legionnaire was more generic before Levitz. He made them distinctive.

"to a point that even today, the Legion hasn't recovered from it. Even worse, it was his writing that poisoned Legion continuity, and made it possible in the first place for Giffen to develop what is truly the worst era in the entirety of Legion Mythos."

How did he poison continuity? He responded to what Crisis forced upon the Legion, and created the Pocket Universe to indeed, keep a Superboy involved in Legion history.

"For 5YL, because it is the devil in the Legion franchise: a foul, dystopic era of ugly, jaded "heroes" stumbling through ugly, dark, jaded worlds, living through dark, jaded and ugly stories that never seemed to end."

There's no question that there was darkness, but what we were witnessing was the Legion re-emerging out of that darkness. It was not perfect and a lot of bad things happened, but the characterization was well done and there was true intrigue.

"Of all Legion eras, only 5YL, in all its dirtiness, actually made me be ashamed to be a Legion fan. And calling that particular fossil of the Nineties "mature" doesn't absolve it of its own dirtiness."

How do you define dirtiness? The violence? Do you mean it in a sexual way? I don't understand what it is you're ashamed of.

"And the dirt of 5YL is what makes it inconcilable with a true depiction of the Legion or their world, even more so then the dystopic premise behind 5YL."

What?

"After all, the Legion, by definition, is a clean franchise-- unlike Vertigo, for instance. And what sane person would prefer to live in a dark, smelly house in which the dung drips from the walls, if instead he could live in a nice, bright and clean house?"

I just don't get it? Where was this dung you're talking about? Yes, the 30th century faced some terrible disasters. The Legion disbanded and had to adapt. The Dominators did a lot of terrible things. It was interesting to see how the good people would get out of it.

"Indeed, calling 5YL "mature" is about as accurate as calling a slash porn about Micky Mouse and Donald Duck "mature". Both 5YL and the Disney porn can't be enjoyed by children, that's for sure; but truly mature comics (or books or movies) can be enjoyed by all ages."

Maybe I don't know what this "mature" label you're talking about is. Did DC label the Legion comic as a "mature" series?

"(For starters, compare the clichéd depiction of "Lesbian Lad/Gay Girl" Digby with the mature and meaningful themes of the ReBoot:"

It seems to me that there has been a lot of praise for Vi's sexuality being depicted very subtle. On the contrary, some thought it was too vague. She was tough and had short hair. She'd been through a lot by that point. It may appear cliched on the surface, but anyone who knows the Salu Digby character could be proud that she emerged from everything strong and capable.

" the Legion existing to bring hope and harmony to a xenophobic universe,"

The original Legion was not all that different. Maybe more of a focus on crimefighting than your description.

" Triad's multible personality problem,"

Triad was pretty darn well written in the reboot, but preboot Lu had a lot of character too, and in later 5YL stories, had an interesting sub-plot happening.

"the Legionnaires being at once both REAL teenagers and yet mature heroes,"

SW6 Legionnaires were like that, too.

"Kinetix' obvious goodness even though she always was hungering for more power - no one-dimensional cardboard-characterization here! -,"

They wrecked her by turning her into a blank slate, then a zombie thing and then a robot thing.
I actually miss the fun, magical young Zoe.

"Cosmic Boy's complex character - do you really want to compare him to the one-dimensional cipher from 5YL? -,"

See, the thing is, the 5YL Legionnaires had both all of their history plus their then characterization. Cos was admired because he lost his power, but he still personified what it meant to be a Legionnaire. His quiet negotiation with Mordru is now legendary.


"Leviathan, etc.)"

See, I have a hard time when they take a good character and kill them off. I don't find that to be a bright spot in a series.

"And the on-face-of-it-ridiculousness of some aspects of 5YL - most notably "Salu" Gay Girl/Lesbian Lad Digby,"

I addressed that above.

"Lightning (Proty) Lad"

Okay, I'm with you on that one!

" and "Sean Erin" - pretty much strips 5YL of whatever little "deeper meaning" 5YL might have claimed to have."

I didn't care for the Sean Erin story either, but I don't view the whole era as being stripped of meaning because of the few plots that I don't care for. I still think the 5YL universe was complex and interesting and yes dark and dramatic. It also had its humor and bright spots. Tenzil Kem comes to mind.

"All of this you 5YL fans should consider before you clamor for respect for a piece like 5YL. Don't permit 5YL's hypnotic writing to trap your mind. It was an evil book. In its own way, it was as evil as the Golden Age run of Wonder Woman."

The thing is, I'm not trying to "clamor for respect for a piece like 5YL." If you don't like it, you don't like it. I can't change your mind. I'm letting you know that it is disrespectful to use all of those negative descriptions about the series. Okay, we got it, you don't like 5YL! I can't respond to the WW comment. I don't know it.

"5YL truly was a child of the Nineties. Let it stay there, and let its twisted corpse forever writhe in comic book limbo."

Yes please. You do that, and quit dragging out all of your complaints about it to a community where there are people who enjoyed it.

"If we never again see a series about it, it'll still be far too soon for me. (Though I still want to know just how it fits with the modern continuity.)"

Again, if we do see a series about it, you have the right to dislike it all you want. But maybe you could just remember that some people may call you out on your adjectives.

"As for the ThreeBoot, while I hate it with a passion, in the end, it was merely an period of incredibly bad writing, married to an editorial direction that had nothing to do whatsoever with the Legion."

I actually agree with you about the writing. There were some interesting parts, but overall, it fell pretty flat. But I don't understand your comment about the editorial direction that had nothing to do with the Legion. Every issue was about the Legion, wasn't it?

"It is nowhere near as toxic to the Legion franchise as Levitz or 5YL. It probably did no lasting damage to the Legion, unlike the "Two Great Enemies"

The thing is, the Reboot Legion is not affected by your distaste for Levitz/5YL or Threeboot. I mean, they're all going to meet in FC:Lo3W, but your favorite era is tucked aside. I understand if you're displeased with the end of that series' publication. I was displeased with Zero Hour.

Again, you have strong opinions, which you are entitled to, but your opinions aren't the only ones out there.

The strength of the 5YL era is that, despite some real flaws, it had some incredibly powerful stories, more powerful than any other Legion stories before or since.

Also, I once figured out what would be the one Legion page I would most want to preserve if I could only preserve one. It comes from the 5YL era. It's from the issue where the war with the Dominators comes to an end, and Laurel Gand has this exchange with the Dominator leader as he leaves to go home and defend against enemies there:

Dominator leader: Humanity... how foolish is your humanity, which allows blood enemies to live. One day I do believe this weakness will be the end of you all.
Laurel: No, sir, on the contrary. It's our humanity that's always saved us, just as it's your hatred that's destroyed you.
Dominator leader: Hmmm... just possibly... you may have a point, human.
(two panels later, the Dominator leader is in his spaceship, alone, contemplating empty space)
Dominator leader: ...you may have a point...

Anybody who thinks that the 5YL Legion wasn't idealistic enough wasn't reading closely enough.

Your argument would make me go on and on about the childish aspects of the Reboot and the clumsiness of your arguments. How the premises of a "bright team of young heroes fighting in a world of xenophobia" is just a politically-correct pap of the 90s (much more than the intelligent experimentalism and the 3-dimentional personalization of the TMK era).
I could also go on and prove how the original Adventure Comics era unleashed a group of virtually one-dimentional characters whose personality was based on costumes and powers. Is that what you call "mature"? Fact is: Legion became the powerful franchise by exactly moving FORWARD from that. Legion books was always one step AHEAD of the game, not BACKWARDS.
Dystopian is good, especially because the Legionnaires were still the positive contrapoint to a situation where the world was in turmoil. THAT'S a challenging book. Cliché is doing what has been done to death form the last 50 years (costumes! optimism! stupid villains taking over the world!). There was NO cliché under TMK. Reboot was a travestite Legion: it took the characters and added a layer of obviousness and traditionalism to the point that it could well be a Teen Titans book. Or just ANY book.
You seemed to be offended by the idea that YOUR Legion actually grew up and might have gone on a more "mature" territory (meaning: decisions were not always A or B, sex becomes an issue, desires and actions do have more serious consequences). Fine. But there is no way you could go on bashing on the best era of Legion incolume.

Oh oh oh... I get a strong feeling of Pandoras Box...

OPENED!

Please try to keep the flamewar down this time, though... I guess a discussion with someone who considers the Legion a "clean frachise" is pointless from the beginning...

hmmm Mon-el will appear in Superman books in Feb. 2009....as mentioned in Newsarama -

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/081115-dc-solicitations-mar-09.html

No Legion of Three Worlds, so either it's not coming out in Feb or DC no longer sees it as worthy of mention in the preview.

No sweat Ck. Prime's opinion is a lot like some of the people posting at the DC boards when the reboot started 'way back when'. I wasn't a DC boards poster until around the time Legionnaires was launched but there were lots of heated discussions about 5YL even then.

There was a lot of trash talk about the recent dealings in the LegionVerse then and it's alright to have a strong opinion. It shows a passionate love of the Legion and it's characters and in some ways actually endears a poster to the rest of us. I and some others may not agree with him but I doubt a flame war will erupt over his strong feelings.

I actually liked a lot of the books during the 5YL run. The Khundish Legionnaires had promise but were thrown away too quickly to see any of it bear fruit, Laurel Gand (w00t), Tenzil for the Defense(!), I hated the turncoat Sunboy but I loved his love/hate relationship with the lady Sci-Cop, Devlin O'Ryan's report of the destruction of Earth (even though I thought the actual destruction was bull**it), the Venado Bay issue and quite a few more superb moments that brought some of the characters to their 'make or break' moment of destiny.

All I'm saying is that all of the boots have their high points and thats become a part of what we've suffered through to be Legion fans. Barry Kitson's artwork was the saving grace of the first 30 issues of this reboot, it certainly wasn't mark Waid's writing. The writing was the strength of the 5YL, not the art that's for sure, I didn't care for most of it until late in the run. And like Quis, I feel the reboot was weak until Legion of the Damned led us to Legion Lost and the DnA era.

Some good some bad, some strong some weak. Soon we're going to be comparing the Silver Age Legion to the modern Adventure Legion. Betcha it'll be an interesting discussion too.

As far as our opinions are concerned, YK, we're nearly on the same page - except for the fact that i actually liked Giffens and Pearsons art on 5YL very much

And I can imagine discussions were heated when the Reboot hit the stands - way back then, I hadn't even heard of the Internet, so there was no way to participate for me. But I was feeling very bad for the Legion back then and hated the Reboot from the first moment on.

Which is exactly why I didn't comment any further. LOL

That makes me very happy. While I love L.E.G.I.O.N. I think the name just makes things confusing. And while I like the Legion elements I prefer not to have too many Legion elements, IMO.

Just for the record: I like Beyonder Prime's passion, he brings some heat to the discussion. We have a long habit of disecting, inspecting, often rejecting in long drawn out prose full of reasons, histories and old prejudices but BP says what he thinks and lays his displeasure down harsh.

That's NEW school.

I won't stay involved in a discussion that becomes a "flamewar" but Beyonder did ask me to reply to his comments and I did, and there hasn't been a response yet.

My whole point has been that it isn't right to spout off all of those negative comments and not back them up.

I myself have spouted off negative comments about the current run (mostly having to do with Dreamy). If anyone would like to discuss those issues further, I'd be happy to.

Beyonder, where'd you go?

I was busy, mostly in other matters, sometimes on the "official" DC board.

Furthermore, I left this board back then specifically because of this thread, because I realized that both sides of the "pro-5YL/anti-5YL" fence were wrong.

I couldn't handle keeping my hatred/contempt for 5YL for myself, nor was I able to moderate it, or even phrase whatever beef I have with it abit more "politically correctly".

And the 5YLaters, of course couldn't handle my harsh verdict of it, and seemed to think anything from me wanting to "bash" their favorite Legion era for the sheer hell of it to me being a possible troll (at least, that's what I got from the comments about "mutual respect", "flamewars" and so on), so I thought it better to leave this board for a while.

That said, I still harbor the same opinions. Is there a board on this forum where one can debatte FREELY (in whatever "language"/level of politeness) without having the other side of the argument constantly haul in stuff like "mutual respect" etc. whenever you're stating pointly whatever you dislike about their favorite?

Otherwise, it probably makes more sense to continue any pro/contra debattes about 5YL on the official DC board? There, we RARELY bother about etiquette...

[snip]

Beyonder-Prime:

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...That said, I still harbor the same opinions...

Well, you can post what you want, I guess. Just don't be surprised if your bluntness and penchant for black/white absolutes nets you nothing more than a whole lot of silence from some people.

I haven't really got anything to "debate" with somebody who starts from the position that Levitz "ruined" the book. That's where I started with the series and without that era, I wouldn't even be here.

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...Otherwise, it probably makes more sense to continue any pro/contra debates about 5YL on the official DC board? There, we RARELY bother about etiquette

Well, if the free-for-all style is what you want, go for it. I had my fill of it years ago, personally. Boards are kind of like neighborhood bars in that sense. If one doesn't satisfy you, you'll probably have better luck looking around for another one more to your taste rather than trying to change the character of the one you're on now.

Well, I wouldn't say that the official DC board is more satisfying to me, but for certain topics, it seems to be better than other boards.

Well, that's another thing. No one board can be all things to everyone. I've seen some try, but it never works for very long.

The last time I ducked onto one of those other comics boards for Round #752 of Whether or Not 5YG Was the Worst Thing To Hit Western Civ Since The Hindenberg, I ran away screaming after ten minutes of lurking.

And I haven't even read more than three issues of 5YG at this point. I'd like to, just to have an original opinion on it, one way or the other.

But I'm too old for the no-holds-barred thing. It doesn't appeal to me anymore.

Well to everybody his own.

I'm highly passionate about the Legion, and hence, don't suffer abonimations of it very well.
That said, maybe you should have taken a hint from the "752 Rounds of Whether or Not 5YG Was the Worst Thing To Hit Western Civ Since The Hindenberg"? Maybe we *know* what we're talking about? Maybe the fact that there's such bad will against it (compared to that, the bad will against the dead of Suprboy seems like a footnote) confirms my claims that 5YL was the legion's worst period? Else, why the enmity toward it, not just by me but by most who aren't directly fans of it?

But a question. You said you read only 3 issues of 5YL-- why did you try to debatte it if you *lack* the information neccessary to comment on it?

[snip]



If you go into every discussion starting from that point, a lot of people are going to get rubbed the wrong way. If you want to live with that, fine. In general, I've found it sets a bad tone to tell anyone that something they're obviously fond of is "an abomination."

Quote

That said, maybe you should have taken a hint from the "752 Rounds of Whether or Not 5YG Was the Worst Thing To Hit Western Civ Since The Hindenberg"? Maybe we *know* what we're talking about?

A lot of the people on that thread were incredibly vicious and rude. They made personal attacks against the posters with whom they disagreed. So excuse me for not thinking they were doing such great advertising for their own POV.

During the time this stuff was originally being published, I'd soured on the Big Two altogether and wasn't reading anything they produced. But that was over twenty years ago, and sometimes people's perspective changes over time. So, yeah. I'd still like to read it and judge for myself.

Also, rest assured that on the board I'm thinking of, there was pretty much a 50/50 split between the camps who had a favorable impression of it and those who did not. I think this is what the website TVTropes calls, "A Broken Base."

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But a question. You said you read only 3 issues of 5YL-- why did you try to debate it if you *lack* the information neccessary to comment on it?

Dude, I'll talk to you if you can avoid biting my head off, but seriously. Read what I wrote. I said that I lurked in the discussion. I didn't comment on the discussion. I just read it for a couple of pages. This was late in 2008.

The issues of 5YG that I checked out were months after my visit to that particular board. I was flat broke for a huge portion of the last two years. I scraped the three issues in question from somebody's discount bin for six bucks total-- just a couple of months ago when I was feeling flush. I hope the chronology is a little clearer to you now.

I didn't "bait" anybody's head off. I was just wondering because that behavior seemed to be comparable to people who read like 50 Thor books and 3 Superman books and then wanted to debate the finer points of their respective mythoi.

But if you were *only* lurking without planing to engage, it's a moot point anyway.

As to the rest:Well, it's a free world. If some quarters have a problem with my considering their fetish "dirty" and an "abonimation" or whatever and me frankly saying so, maybe they should go hold hands with each other on the Sailor Moon or Strawberry Shortcake boards, don't you think so too?

[snip]

Beyonder-Prime wrote:

Quote

...If some quarters have a problem with my considering their fetish "dirty" and an "abomination" or whatever and me frankly saying so, maybe they should go hold hands with each other on the Sailor Moon or Strawberry Shortcake boards, don't you think so too?

Policing the fetishes of total strangers on the internet? Uh, no thanks. I like to eat, sleep, and get out of the house once in a while. That's really not the kind of full-time job I'm looking for, even if somebody was willing to pay me for it.

Wow! Almost totally missed this one!
Sketch fighting back.
It leaves me almost speechless!

And I can see why YK is so missed.
What a wonderful approach and reasoning he had.
sigh

I've had lots of likes and dislikes about the various Legion eras over the years.
Certainly, I've had favorites, but those really fall into story arcs and certain characters, rather than eras.

I loved the stories centered around Shadow Lass and the other girls (silly though they sometimes were, looking back), the Fatal Five/Suneater, Darkseid, Universo/Rond, Miracle Machine.

Later on, the Revenge for Superboy/Time Trapper and Shady trying to save Lar, the new Fatal Five with the gals, the Ferro brother Annual, the twin's birth, Universo and the 5 with will, Sensor vs the Eye, even the Magic Wars.
And yes, Proty Garth made sense to me.

TMK favs were Lar/Trapper, Mordruverse, Mysa's rescue (although I hated her marriage and abuse and Rond's death), Laurel Gand and baby, Rokk and Lydda (with the unrealized Lord of Order baby possibilities), Jo's struggles back in time, I loved the clones and Cera and the McCauley's new Fatal Five.

Reboot, sorry, my favorite era because I loved Umbra, Lyrl, Gates, XS, Mysa, Vi, Nura, Naga, so many others, and the stories that created them. DNA's Damned and LOST are absolute loves, even though I hated Jan's insanity and death, along with Garth's (whom I saw as just developing, like Jan, into someone I really liked.}

The 3boot had Barry Kitson on art and the Dominator and Elyson stories that were interesting, although I disliked the 'kid/adult hating each other' idea and Querl as Vril.

Shooter's Legion Applicant story was good and Francis was great.

And I'm going to enjoy this era, too.
The Adventure stories are okay on their own (especially Brek & Dirk), but I LOVE them with the Superman/Lar series and the Espionage Squad stuff.

I also enjoy .REBELS and it's contribution to Dawnstar's mythos (a much earlier beginning for Starhaven, etc,) and the presentation of a new and wonderful Brainiac 3.

Anyway, I'm story oriented rather than era loyal.

The point I'm making is that I feel a passionate love for the Legion.
I always have.
I just want to get the most out of that love that I can, rather than fuming about things like 'eras'.
(And I fought passionately for Jan not to be the Progenitor on the DC boards until the issue came out where he was irretrieveably gone. sigh)

I save 'hating' for real world things, like the Haitians not getting supplies like they should and my 18 year old granddaughter being lost on Meth (hopefully only for the time being) and the whales either starving to death or being killed by the whalers.
I save 'hate' and 'abomination' for stuff like that.

My advice is to pick your fights wisely and have them actually MEAN something.

I'll never bring my posting numbers up like that!
gads

[snip]

Candle:

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...I save 'hating' for real world things, like the Haitians not getting supplies like they should and my 18 year old granddaughter being lost on Meth (hopefully only for the time being) and the whales either starving to death or being killed by the whalers...

Yeah, I pretty much agree. But very sorry to hear about your granddaughter.

I try not to constantly fly off the handle like I used to, even on those "meaningful" boards. RL is tough enough. I don't go online for strife most days. I go online to get away from strife.

Also, I remember some of the really idiotically rude stuff I wrote in to various comics outlets back in the pre-internet days. I sincerely hope that nobody else does.

Well, Candle, I love the Reboot Legion too.

And there are more important things than collecting postings to rise up in levels.

Thanks for the well wishes for my grand daughter, cleome.
sigh

And I'm glad you liked the reboot, B-PCL.
I find myself apologizing for loving them, quite a bit, but oh well.

I was just kidding about the posting thing.
I didn't even know there was such a thing until yeaterday!

The LW Top 40 "posting thing" is just for fun. No one is under any obligation to participate or even encouraged to post just for the sake of increasing his or her post count.

Now you tell me!

Well, your contract is different, Dev. It states (in the fine print) that you MUST post reviews of 5YL and anything else you deem reviewable until you reach Time Trapper status.