Sort-of a new discussion game.

I'll throw out 2 Legionnaires at random.

You pick one of those Legionnaires to be completely retconned out of Legion history.

Tell why you made your pick.

I thought it might be interesting to see which Legionnaires are indispensable to LSH history.


first two...


FERRO LAD

or

KARATE KID

Karate Kid; Ferro Lad's death had such a huge impact pre-boot, much more than KK's.

Plus, I think Projectra would have been a stronger character as well.

Danny, my pick exactly for the exact same reason.

I'd have to select Val to be retconned out.

The death of Ferro Lad was FAR too important an event in LSH history to retcon out.

Hmm... did Val play a key role at any point that would have drastically altered things if he hadn't been there? I can't think of any...

And who would Projectra have hooked up with with no Karate Kid in the picture?

My first reaction is to pick Ferro Lad - although his death was a crucial story, somebody else could be tossed to the fiery pit in his place, and serve the same purpose.

I never found Ferro to be a very interesting character - he's shown a bit more potential lately, but overall Karate Kid has been more attractive as a legionnaire.

Ferro's key characteristics: he's strangely disfigured, and trying to deal with it; post boot added other elements - his 20th century origin and his youth relative to other legionnaires. I never found any of these characteristics to be exploited in a very captivating manner. Also, his power isn't as interesting (to me) as Karate Kid's. I enjoy "normal" people acting in a superhero context - such as Batman or Green Arrow.

Pre-boot Karate Kid was not only a legionnaire without a superpower, beyond his training, he was the commoner - and no honourable lineage, either; his father was a villain - who fell in love with and won the princess. This story might not have worked as well with someone more distinguished. Both pre-boot and post, Karate Kid has been the contemplative warrior and a character indifferent to financial gain (emphasised more post-boot). No one else has fulfilled this role - although it's not crucial to any story, it's a distinctive element.

Is he indispensable? No - the key stories involving him, like Ferro, could have been adapted for some other legionnaire with a few changes. But for personal preference, I would keep Val and retcon Andy.

Now Cramey, I can't let you off so easily! WHICH Legionnaire do you envision being tossed to the fiery pit and taking Ferro Lad's place in Legion continuity/history?

Jeepers! I just realized which Legionnaire would be perfect to win Jeckie's heart in a Valless Legionverse!

Tenzil!

He fulfills the opposite ends of the social ladder criterion, plus he eventually ended up marrying into royalty anyway!

I would get rid of Karate Kid.

I don't think he adds as much to the Legion as most of the others. True, Batman is a cornerstone of the JLA even without superhuman powers, but Batman isn't just about martial arts -- he's also known as the world's greatest detective, and he contributes more to the team (and crime-fighting generally) in regard to his brains than to his other considerable skills.

Plus, I've never liked the name. If you had mastery over nearly all forms of martial arts from a myriad of different planets, why would you describe yourself solely by reference to one particular kind from one planet? Even if that were your sentimental favorite, or the one martial art you found most effective, I wouldn't think you'd limit your self-image in that way...

If it's pre-boot and the character is going to bite the dust in the Big Sacrifice to Save the Universe, I would have tossed out one of the Subs for that story - specifically, Fire Lad. That would be a nice irony, meeting his death in a Suneater.

Post-boot... are we looking for a character to fulfill the role of youngster from the 20th century? I would take Impulse, I liked his interaction with the Legion in that one story. Or an established character to play the physically deformed, somewhat shy and lacking in confidence legionnaire? Well, what better place for Infectious Lass to step in? Not physically deformed, but people might well turn away at the sight of her and be repulsed by her. She, naturally, would be lacking in confidence as a member of a feared and rejected race. Romance with Val, and voilà!

Eryk, I like the way you think!

Nice scenarios, Cramey.

Let's try one a wee bit harder..

Which one would you choose to retcon out:


STAR BOY

or

DREAM GIRL

Got to go with Star Boy!

Dreamy's visions have played a key role in too many stories to do without!

I'd imagine she'd join the Subs like in regular (preboot) continuity. Then maybe she could hook up with Stone Boy (who had previously been offered Legion membership and turned it down), and the two of them could return as "Sir Prize" and "Miss Terious" during the Devil's Dozen story.

One interesting consequence: no matter which these you pick, it will have the result that the Legion's rule allowing killing in self-defense would not have gone into effect until much later. Hmm... what's the next example of a Legionnaire killing?

Easy. Star Boy.

Dream Girl has a unique niche in the legion: a sexpot who is also vastly intelligent and capable. Nura is a great character.

On the other hand Thom's role in the legion is pretty much mirrored by other people such as Gim or Rokk. he's not the most spectacularly interesting person but he gets the job done. Power wise, he wouldn't be missed. In his thirty-forty year history DnA are the only writers who have ever made his powers really cool. I've really liked the reboot Thom. I think the writers have done a good job making him a strong likable character. Nura is just better.

What about rebooting them into the same character?

Star Girl of Xanthu. Powered by a rogue comet with astrological prescience and gravity powers.



Ah, who am I kidding. Hands off both of them! No-one's rebootin' Thom or Nura!!

I would retcon out Dream Girl. As EDE says, most of her contributions have been in the form of plot devices, which generally made for weak stories anyway. She really contributed nothing. It was not until fans attempted to toss Levitz for a loop my electing her leader that she really contributed anything.

However, Star Boy figures into many of the intrigal themes of the Legion. The Legionnaire Who Killed (and that could have just as easily been some other chick he killed for), the Luckless Legionniare, the Legionniare's Lost Powers.

Yup, keep Thom, dump Nura.

Amen to the Dreamy retcon. It's not that I think Thom is crucial, but many, if not most, of those precog stories were lame ("Superboy is going to die! Oh wait, I just saw a ROBOT Superboy die, because...") and with the exception of the Levitz glory days Nura has been pretty cliched and boring. One of my least favorite characters.

And boot KKid. Dumb name, dumb power, especially in the Silver Age stories ("My knowledge of martial arts allows me to perform this incredible feat!"). Much improved in the reboot, where his power seems to be more realistic and limited. And how did we get "Live Wire" as a replacement for Lightning Lad, but we're still stuck with "Karate Kid?" Hello, Bruce Lee craze.

Pre-boot I would have said Nura hands down. But now, with her Khund training her character, if they would use her, is more interesting. I found her back-up story in the Legion Worlds series the most intersting of the bunch.

Preboot I'd say keep Nura, since I loved her personality, and without her I doubt the White Witch Witch would have joined the Legion.

For the reboot, I can't decide yet.

Between Val and Andy, probably Andy. Ferro Lad pretty much became special BECAUSE he died; it would be fairly easy to create a different character to sacrifice themselves to save Superboy.

Impossible for me to choose between Sir Prize and Miss Terious. I like them both and neither character would be complete without the other to play against. That's as true today as it was forty years ago, imo.

The choice between KK and Ferro is easier. Ferro by a furlong. His sacrifice and death reverberated in Legion lore for many years afterwards (e.g., v2 #300) whereas Val's death was interesting mainly in terms of its personal impact on Jeckie. I never bought the chemistry between them anyway (I'd never marry a man who wore a big, silly collar). Post-boot, Ferro has more potential for character growth. Val is too ascetic and inscrutable, and too closely associated with martial arts, which doesn't interest me at all.

Well, let's see...

Between KK and Ferro, I much prefer KK. Maybe it's because I wasn't there when the preboot Ferro made his sacrifice, to me he's always been a statue in the Hall of Heroes. And the postboot version is utterly uninteresting, I can't stand his whining (although he's become better of late). His powers are also unoriginal, and, in my opinion, not particularly useful. Karate Kid, on the other hand, has the potential of becoming one of my favorite characters (I'll concede that he isn't one, at the moment). I guess I like his way of viewing the world, and his quiet but vert self-assured manner. Much could be done with him (maybe we need something to test that self-confidence of his...).

Between Star Boy and Dreamer, no contest, I prefer Dreamer by a long shot. One of the most enduring images of the postboot is the new Dreamer sitting in bed, passing the hours because she doesn't sleep (Legion Worlds). Creepy, you just know that something bad is bound to happen to her. Star Boy, on the other hand, is... well, dispensable.

Hmmmm....KK or Ferro? Nura or Thom? I'd keep Ferro & KK and dump Nura and Thom

What? I can't do that but...

Well, okay, in that case:

1) KK or Ferro: Tough choice for me as I've always liked both characters. I would keep Andy because he is unique and no one else can fill his role. KK could easily be replaced (with just a little tweaking) by Brin. Brin has shown his tremendous fighting skills on numerous occasions. He could easily be shown to be a student of martial arts and gradually grow into Val role as the master fighter of the galaxy.

2) Nura or Thom: This one is easy for me. I would dump Nura in a nanosecond. I've always found her to be annoying, and pretty much worthless. She came to Earth to "save" the Legion after seeing them killed in a spaceship explosion, only it turns out to be android or robot replicas. IMHO, the LSH was right to shuttle her off to the Subs. That's where she belonged! If you really felt the need to have someone with precog powers, have Imra develop them as part of her mental skill set.

Finally, in answer to Lasher's question to FC regarding who to kill off in Andy's place, I offer up two choices. First, this would have been one good use for Nura. She could have "seen" that it was her destiny. Since I've already retconned out Nura, however, I would suggest that preboot Vi was certainly as insecure as Andy is portrayed and her heroic sacrifice would have reverberated as profoundly throughout the Legion Universe.

Sniff! Look's like the writings on the wall, guys.

Enjoyed my time here, but it seems like it's time to move on.

( )

Nah don't kill off Thom He's mostly always been the most realistic of the Legion.

I'd have picked Karate Kid post reboot. He's been more interesting since tho. And leave Sensor alone too. She's going through a lot now. Tho I missed what happened to cause the change in her.

Maybe despite the size of the cast no one really needs to die

Thom always did have something of the "average guy" about him, and his problems with being in love with the beautiful Dreamer (who didn't always return the affection, for one reason or another) has always been a sad and charming storyline.

Still, forced to choose between them, I'd go with Dreamer. She offered an odd combination of opposites - vampy, yet sometimes insecure; ditzy and brainy; self absorbed and a leader. Pre-boot, Thom seemed most often to act as her accessory; that's what sticks in my mind. Without Thom, pre-boot Nura could have caused a lot more trouble in the Legion, stealing boyfriends, flirting, etc. She might have gotten a better grip on her powers, refined or improved them, without Thom to always defend her and, literally, catch her as she fell.

Post-boot, they're both more interesting characters. Both were crucial to the war against Robotica. Thom's faltering powers and foretold death are interesting potential stories. However, I think the upgraded Dreamer has been and will be more crucial to Legion and 31st century events.

I'd keep Ferro Lad and Dream Girl and ditch the other 2. Mostly because Ferro Lad and Dream Girl are 2 of my all time favorites--I always did like the underdogs and these are interesting underdogs. Ferro Lad's mask made him mysterous and intriguing. And his reason for wearing the mask made him a tragic character. Dream Girl's beauty and her power also made her mysterious and intriguing, not to mention the fact that she was highly intelligent and capable preboot. I hated the way they made her a vamp and then a ditz and was thrilled with her reworking via Khundian training.

By the way, Dream Girl wasn't elected by the readers to throw Levitz for a loop. She was elected because she was popular with the fans and they were tired of the fact that she rarely ever appeared. Thank God she was elected leader because it forced the creative team to use her more. Otherwise, I'm sure she would've gone the way of Bouncing Boy, Duo Damsel, Chemical King, and Matter Eater Lad. "Poor me. I'm so useless. I might as well quit."

Star Boy is just dull as dishwater preboot (though he shows more potential postboot) and any other Legionnaire could've filled the "Legionnaire Who Killed"role just as easily. And Karate Kid's fighting skills are pretty unimpressive when you've got guys like Superboy and Mon-El on the team IMO. As somebody else pointed out, KK and TW were pretty interchangeable, though if the choice were between those 2 I'd keep Val and ditch Brin.

This is a hard topic! But I will try to stay to the point: which Legionnaires is expendable, not which one is my favorite.

Val/Andy: Although Val is my obvious favorite, I think there is more to that than my reasons for him being the most important. Why? Because I think a whole slew of Legionnaires could have been substituted in place of Andy in his death: Leviathon, Sun Boy, Shrinking Violet, Light Lass. These are all great Legionnaires whom I love, but I think Val is more important than any of them. Why? Because once Val joined, he quickly became a prominently featured Legionaires (moreso than Jeckie or Andy), and appeared constantly. For me, Val is the most representative of the shift away from the "Silver Age" Legion stories to the more character driven stories. Val attacks the Fatal Five when he has only hours to live. Val joins Brainy, Cos and Superboy when they invade Talok VII. He just seemed so important and so prominent in all the stories. And...he did have his own title, came back in time and then died saving Jeckie, in a way that was more personnal and emotional than Andy. Nothing could have replaced the death of a Legionnaire, but I think Andy could have been replaced by another Legionnaire.

Dreamy/Thom: this is a tough one. Pre-Levitz, definately Dreamy, since Thom was so intrical in the Legionnaire who killed, befriending Superboy and dating Lana, and being the Legionnaire who joined the Subs. Yet, Dreamy is influential too, and definately moreso once Levitz took over. From there on in, Dreamy is irreplaceable, while Thom's roles in various stories could have been substitued by Lightning Lad (bad luck), Timber Wolf (bad love life), or any Legionnaire in a battle.

Kewl topic Lash!

Jeepers! I just remembered another reason for retconning out Star Boy. His insane bias prevented Calamity King from joining the Subs! Without Star Boy, my namesake would have been a much more prominent figure!

Back Off, HatBoy... This Legion's mine.

Interesting stuff here!

Okay, this time I'm going to choose 2 Legionnaires that I can't recall spending much time together, so retconning out one wouldn't affect the other character much... but both have their share of fans!


SHADOW LASS/UMBRA

or

SHRINKING VIOLET

Yow! Tough choice!

But...I'll retcon out Violet. Her big story pre-boot was the sens-tank deception; post-boot Emerald Vi - as I recall them. Tasmia fought against Mordru, the Black Circle, Darkseid. She hooked Mon-el/Valor and kept him from going totally off the rails at times. She was part of the Lost team, and played that role more effectively than I think Violet could have - not just due to powers but to personality. She had a distinctive world, with relatives and personal enemies that persisted throughout Legion history. (We haven't seen much of Imsk since... when? 1965?) Her personality and appearance made her stand apart from the other legionnaires and became part of the story when her temper or standoffish attitude dictated her behaviour.

I believe Tasmia has been a lot more developed than Vi as a character and to lose her would throw away a large chunk of 30th/31st century lore.

This IS a difficult one.

On the one hand, we have the whole Violet/Duplicate Boy, Yera/Colossal Boy, Sens-Tank thingie.

Then we have Tasmia, whom I just like more, ESPECIALLY postboot.

I hated the results of the 'Emerald Vi' storyline post-boot-- therefore I will let it be the deciding factor. I would retcon out Violet.

Difficult to choose between the two although I think both are expendable (sorry Arachne!) Of the two I would probably keep Vi. She is more integral to some major storylines. She's the tie to the Heroes of Lallor; she provided the form that Gim fell for, leading to the first interspecies marriage; tie in for the Imsk/Braal wars which effected so much of Legion history.

Shady was little more than Mon's girlfriend in the preboot, and really not much more of interest in the postboot (IMHO). Not sure that her role needs to be filled but, if so, we have her cousin waiting in the wings.

I'd ditch Violet for the same reasons that Fat Cramer stated so eloquently.

I like both characters so much that I can't see eliminating either.

I do want to point out that Shady was the original shameless hussy. In her first story, she has the hots for Brainiac 5. Then when she realizes he doesn't return her affections, she goes after Mon-el. I believe Duo Damsel or Superboy has a thought balloon about this when the four of them travel back to Smallville to escape Mordru. Also in this Story, you see that Duo Damsel has a crush on Superboy, but she later settles for Chuck. Fickle, fickle girl Legionnaires

I'm not sure I buy the argument that Tasmia's character is more developed, and not just because Shady is one of my least favorite characters.

Sure, she may have more of a backstory preboot, but what exactly did she do? Arm candy for Mon. Postboot, she has a more distinct personality, if bitchy distinguishes one's personality. We haven't really seen that much backstory on her. Her only real distinction postboot is that she was one of the Lost.

But Vi, think of all the changes her personality went through preboot (and not just because a new writer was aboard)--from wallflower (pun intended) to cranky survivor to Imskian conscientious objector (I know, a little late, but...) to Ayla's lovah to wounded war vet. By Zero Hour, she was one of the most developed characters in the Legion as well as one of the longest serving. All without wearing a black bikini OR thong.

You make an excellent case for pre-boot Violet, Arms.

I'll have to pick Vi over Shady as well. Not just for what armsfalloffboy said, but because she seems more central to the team. Shady preboot was mostly just Mon-el's "lover" and postboot mostly hung on the outskirts being grumpy.

Preboot if there was no Vi, there'd be no Yera (or she would have had to replace someone else which means she might've ended up with someone else) and Ayla would miss a huge part of her characterization. And who knows how Venado Bay might've ended if she weren't there to save Rokk's life. Postboot, there'd have to be a new explanation for the team being thrown into the 20th century, which not only lead to Ferro on the team, but Computo and Robotica.

What tipped the scale in Vi's favor?

Vi...Venado...Vee...very simple choice, when you look at it this way!

latecomers, feel free to comment on the previous rounds, but here's a new one.

This time, I'm using 2 post-boot ONLY characters. And one shall surely be retconned... but which one is more expendable in your eyes and why?...


SHIKARI

or

KID QUANTUM (Jazmin Cullen)

Even worse, Lash! You make me think too early in the morning...

I'd retcon out Kid Q. Trying to remember if she played a critical role in defeating some villain and I don't know that she did.... She seems to be important to Legion history because she's around a lot as leader, but I don't know that her presence really changed anything. Of course, next week she'll probably save the entire universe and I'll eat my words.

Shikari was crucial to getting the Lost team back, without which we'd have half a Legion. Without her and the other Kwai, would we have had threshold technology? Much as I dislike it for the way it's used for sudden end-of-story rescues, it may be a big development in the 31st century stories - depends what future writers do with it.

Gotta agree with FC. Shikari is by far the more important character. Kid Q really adds nothing to the story that couldn't be provided by one of the others. In a sense she's the Chemical King of the postboot. The writers can't seem to figure out what her powers do. In Condo's case they killed him off, in her case, they seem to do whatever the writer needs done in that particular story.

I'd have to say Shikari should go. She's an updated Dawnstar and not well done in my opinion. Her whole race can do what she does . I've not seen her developed as much as she could've been.

Jazmin's got a lot more potential here. But I too would like to see a more defined set of powers. She's shown determination, loyal, strength of character and managed to do a decent job as Leader despite not being a Legionnaire for long.

But this too is a tough choice. Both have a lot of potential.