Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Justice: JLA ....Spoilers?

right on.

While on the subject of the 1973 Superfriends, i was curious as to how Wonder Woman was picked as a main character, considering (pre-CRISIS, ZERO HOUR) she was powerless for a few years. When did her powers return?

It looks like Wonder Woman regained her powers in Wonder Woman #204, cover dated January-February 1973.

Here's another bit of trivia: Wonder Woman also appeared in an episode of the "Brady Kids" - was that her first appearance as a cartoon character or did the Super Friends do it first?

Technically, that's a Golden Age format. It was first used in the old JSA stories.

By the time of the JLA, the heroes were teaming in groups of two or three in individual chapters, though that was also pioneered in the JSA series.

what's with captain marvel and plastic man being in the big group spread. where are my elongated man and ZATANNA?!?!?!?!?!?!?

i detest plastic man.....

Couldn't agree more!!! That's exactly why I'm not buying Justice and very rarely buy any of Ross' vanity projects.

He always claims to be telling a forgotten story from the great Silver Age that he grew up with - but its always his own weird skewed version of the Silver Age. He just can't deal with the fact that Plastic Man and Captain Marvel were never in the JLA back then! So he dumps the characters who were members - Firestorm, Elongated Man, Zatanna (and usually Red Tornado) and pretends like those two were. So annoys me!

And it must confuse the Hell out of newer readers who aren't sure of who actually was a member back then. No wonder the annoying Plastic Man turns up on so many lists of people's Big 7 JLA members over on the DC Boards. They think he has history with the team when all he did was hang around for a few annoying months during the Morrison run. Thank God for Kyle Baker because the continued success of that series is our best hope of never seeing Plastic Man on the team again!

I used to hate Plastic Man, until I read the Archives and discovered the genius of Jack Cole. However...I have to completely agree that although he may be "one of the greatest heroes of all time" (which seems to be Ross' reasoning for including him and Cap Marvel), he belongs nowhere near the JLA, or even the DCU in general. You might as well let Alfred E. Newman join the JLA.

Cole's creation lives in a world with its own set of rules, and its own type of reality...it doesn't mix with the kind of world the other characters live in. It's not a matter of one being better than the other; they are just fundamentally different. Like combining Caddyshack and Schindler's List -- you may like both movies, but if you combine them into one movie, you get guaranteed unwatchable junk.

The same goes for Eisner's 'the Spirit'...one of my favorite comics of all time. His world just works differently... DC's idea to do a new Spirit series is kind of unsettling... DC's idea to set the Spirit in the modern day DCU is a calamity of biblical proportions.

Well, I know the history of the team and love both Plastic Man and Captain Marvel in the League.

To me, it's a dream come true. I think they both can work given the right writers and artists.

I guess we really need to define the Silver Age because the only one you mention being left out that I would agree was a member during what I consider the SA (just barely) would be Red Tornado. The others all came much later.

Somewhere around here, there was a thread (by Cobie I think) that did a great job of defining the various ages in comics. I'll have to see if I can dig it up.

When was Plastic Man introduced in the DCU. He was a character that National/DC acquired, right? Isn't the prevailing lore that the writers/editors of Flash didn't know that Plastic Man had been acquired or they would have just reused the name for Ralph as they did for Barry, Hal, Ray and Katar?

Here's the thread I was thinking about.

Cobie\'s Comic Book Ages thread

Some great links in it that basically define the Silver Age as ending around 1970-1972, which is considered the start of the Bronze Age.

i don't care about ages in this case personally. i just like the line up from the early 80's before justice league detroit. that curt swan and george perez drew. captain marvel can come along too but not at the expense of staples like zatanna and elongated man. this will always be the greatest line up to me, i think of it as the "classic" jla or even the "golden age" jla. the satelite era!!! the jla that inspired squadron supreme and numerous t-shirts.

i still detest plastic man.

I think the problem for me is that you have to dilute Plastic Man down to almost nothing in order to use him in a mainstream DCU book like JLA.

For me, it's like when they were talking about making the next Superman movie with a Superman who didn't wear a costume or fly or any of that -- what's the point? Make a different movie, and call it something else. If you take Plastic Man out of his world, he loses too much, imo.

Vee - I agree that Firestorm, Zatanna, etc weren't Silver Age members. I think I was just using the term lazily to refer to the pre-Martian invasion 'Satellite era' team that this story seems to be about.

Out of interest though, why do you consider Red Tornado a Silver Age member and not Elongated Man, when they joined an issue apart, and now that I think about it - Elongated Man joined first?

P.S. I don't detest Plastic Man. Jack Cole and even the much-maligned Kyle Baker have told some great stories with him.

But what I do *DETEST* with a capital D for "Damn anyone who tries it!" is any retconning or revising of the JLofA's history! I hate buying a comic about the Satellite-era JLofA (the first comic I ever read and the first comic I ever collected and so it occupies a special place in my comic-lover's heart) and seeing characters who weren't on it inexplicably being treated like members. I even feel my blood pressure rising just at the sight of Black Canary's leggings not matching the colour they were back then. For someone who knows the JLofA as well as I do these little, and in some cases big, continuity changes are just extremely frustrating.

As Legion-lovers just imagine what it would be like if Ross decided to tell a story about the Adventure-era Legion but included Robin and Wildfire on the team with no explanation and had Phantom Girl in a black costume. Sure, he might like the changes he's made but as fans who want to read a story about the team as it was it would be very frustrating for us!

i confess to everyone in this thread that i have little experience with plastic man beyond cartoons, the recent jla, and the old all star squadron comics.

detestable eh

OK, here's how it stands. CRISIS mucked up a lot of the League's back-history by eliminating Superman, Batman and Wonder Wonder Woman from continuity. This means that WW's "De-powering" during the late 60's isnt considered canonical, which means her twelve trials to regain JLA membership aren't applicable any more, either.

The League's origins are, apparently, in as much a mess as the Legion's. So any stories involving the League before CRISIS had to undergo a drastic change afterwards. Black Canary did not have a career on Earth-2, but her daughter (the current Canary) does. Furthermore, she replaced WW as the token babe of the League in its early years.

IMHO, the League needs to have a chronology chart drawn up so that fans can be advised as to which stories happened and which stories didnt.

I'm assuming that the Detroit League newcomers (Vixen, Steel, Vibe and Gypsy) aren't considered members in the current timeline. Speaking of which, i suppose the events of ZERO HOUR have de-stabilised the membership origins even more. Their first mission is not (and apparently never was) to combat the alien forces of Appellax as it was in the very beginning (that is, in the old multiple-Earth universe).

I guess with another CRISIS on the way, more retroactive casualties are to be expected.

Brian

Basically all the JLA stories can be assumed to have happened as told or slighly altered except the multiple earth crossovers and where wonder woman was central to the plot ie Dinah could not be substituted.

Brian the chronology you describe exists in two volumes.


JLA Year 1 by Waid and Kitson shows the origin of Black Canary and her relationship with her mother the Golden age Black Canary of the JSA.

JLA Incarnations miniseries picks it up from there.

The JLA incarnations miniseries establishes that:
1) Golden age Hawks joined the League to liase between the JSA and JLA (replacing Katar and Shay who didn't exist yet)
2) Batman and Superman joined the league later in the silver age. (WW did not because she did not appear until the Legends miniseries which was 6 years ago to the characters)
3) The league broke up because the big 7 didn't have enough time to commit to the league.
4) Shows how the satellite was destroyed in current continuity.
5) JLDetroit happened and was disbanded by anti-hero sentiment in Legends.
6) JLI formed and were goofy.
7) The big 7 got back together.

I heard of the JLA: Year One mini-series, Tamper Lad, and how, interestingly enough, Barry Kitson (current artist on the current Legion title) did the artwork.

Questions: Did the Atom join the JLA post-CRISIS?
Or Red Tornado, Zatanna?

Mark Waid wrote so JLA:Y1 was another in their long line of collaborations.

Atom and Zatanna for sure. They play a big part in last year's identity crisis (I think I told you on another thread about Jean and Sue Dibny).

Red Tornado's status was established in JLA/JSA Secret Files where he says that he had been part of both the JLA and JSA in the silver age but declines to rejoin either team as he was mentoring Young Justice at the time.

So much to catch up on....Thanks for the info, TL!

It's okay... I've heard reports of many people going on to lead productive and long lives, even without liking Plastic Man. Still... if you start to feel chest pains, take a couple asprin and get hold of an Archive Edition quick.

I always found it vaguely insulting that their solution was just to substitute Canary..."Well, she's a woman -- just as good! Problem solved!" It always made me wonder whatever happened to Black Canary's invisible jet, and how come she never uses her super strength anymore, etc., etc.

Yeah the Canary retcon kinda sucked but DC's silver age female roster is quite sparse. I liked the New Frontier origin of the JLA as the generational story of a merged earth much better but what can you do.

Typo!!!! Wonder Woman had the invisible jet and magic lasso - Canary had the sonic cry

Don't worry, Southtown Kid, i've made boo-boos like that myself

ok can someone briefly explain the black canary retcon please. shes one of my fav league characters...