Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities FINAL CRISIS (Official Thread)

I haven't read this issue yet, but I have read some spoilers over on the DC boards, and I'm a bit disturbed. I'll wait to read the issue (and the rest of the series) before I fully pass judgment, but if my understanding of what happens in this issue between Wonder Woman and Mary Marvel is true -- and things don't happen in subsequent issues to change the course of the story -- I'm going to be seriously pissed.

I thought DC's treatment of Mary Marvel during Countdown was deplorable. (Worse even than Judd Winick's hackwork of a Captain Marvel, Jr. story in The Trials of Shazam, and that's saying something.) I understand how effective the "seduction of the innocent" storyline can be if taken to its full potential, but DC seriously botched it with the Mary Marvel story. Mary's fall to the dark side, followed by her redemption, followed by her "surprise" relapse at the hands of Darkseid, was utterly out of character and unsupportable in relation to decades of character and story development in the Marvel family canon. Simply put, it wasn't just that DC "ruined" a well-loved character with a longer history than most DC characters; the entire storyline was doubly offensive because it was so poorly conceived and executed, and ultimately implausible. It was, in effect, a slap in the face to not only Mary Marvel fans, but all who value quality storytelling in their comics.

I had hoped that Final Crisis would have taken what happened in Countdown and developed it in some way that could have turned it around or at least had it make sense within DCU canon -- and thus redeemed it to some extent. Now, however, as if to add insult to injury, Grant Morrison seemingly picks up right where Countdown left off, and depicts a Wonder Woman-Mary Marvel fight that both reinforces the piss-poor character "development" of Countdown, and is also wholly inconsistent with everything the DCU has ever portrayed in regard to the relative abilities of Wonder Woman and Mary Marvel.

As I said, I'll read Final Crisis in its entirety before fully passing judgment, but if things don't take a drastic turn, it will bode poorly for my continued support of DC comics.

OK, so maybe my last post was made when I was in a bit of a head-punching mood...

I've now read Final Crisis #3. A couple thoughts:

- I'm glad Tawky Tawny (or whatever he goes by these days) is OK. It wasn't really clear from Trials of Shazam whether he had been killed or was just injured. I guess it was the latter.

- An effective little scene with Freddy and Tawny. I'm surprised that Freddy doesn't know what's happened to Mary (only that she's "disappeared"). It's nice, however, to have him acknowledge the sorry state of the Marvel Family -- really the heart of makes the Billy/Mary/Freddy relationship special -- and make a vow to bring Mary "home." At least it seems Final Crisis is going to have the new Captain Marvel actually do something about Mary, rather than just having her succumb to the dark side and discarded. (Freddy's comment about changing to Captain Marvel and not coming back did strike a chord, though... I've always wondered why Freddy and Mary didn't do just that. Unlike Billy, their Marvel forms look pretty much like their normal selves.)

- Mary's ridiculous appearance (shaved head and pink hair; dominatrix-type outfit) and behavior are completely, totally over-the-top. It's like she's a parody of herself -- worse even than the "Mistress Mary" that appeared in I Can't Believe It's Not the Justice League. The fact that her new personality is so beyond the pale actually leads me to believe Morrison is planning to resolve her situation somehow... had she just been mostly herself but "evil," then I think there would be a much larger chance that she'd remain that way indefinitely as a new DCU villain. I only hope that the resolution isn't killing her off... but I'll wait and see.

- And... I still think the story developments that brought Mary Marvel to this point, as shown in Countdown, were ludicrous and implausible -- but, sadly, pretty much par for the course for that series.

Just read FC #3 and I have to say - I'm really angry about the crap they are throwing in our direction. This is no coherent storytelling anymore, it is just a patchwork of allegedly cool flashes of inspiration which only serve to confuse the reader out of his way...

I really hate what Grant Morrisson is doing on this book - which is no wonder cause I did not like anything he did over the last ten years - and am currently close to leave DC comics behind.

What makes me most angry is the constant flow of new question marks which keep on coming up. Not good, mysterious, interesting questions like in "Lost", but annoying, useless question marks like: Who is Father Time, and why is he working with Frankensteins Monster? What happened in Blüdhaven that is so bad? How did Barry Allen suddenly reappear? Who is Überfräulein and if she's German, why does she talk such nonsense? Who are the Tiger next to Marvel Jr. and the black Mister Miracle, and since when is there a new Aquaman? Why is the Mary Marvel part of Countdown still valid while the Darkseid part is seemingly not?

And the question to top all: Why should I bother to figure it all out when there are only one or two interesting story fragments to begin with?

Does anybody like this book? And why don't they just add some f***** explanations or synopsis at the beginning so you get a hunch of an idea what's going on???

Terrible...

I had a lot of the same questions myself, but assumed that I didn't know most of the answers either because I haven't been reading that many DC titles lately (and could well have missed the introduction of new characters, etc.), or because the answers would be provided later in the series.

The tiger next to Marvel Jr. is Tawky Tawny -- a longtime member of the Marvel family -- who has recently gone through a slight re-design to make him look a bit more realistic and less cartoony.

I do think a synopsis at the beginning of each issue would be helpful, though.

Another thought... I'd really be much more into Final Crisis if the issues came out faster. I think the long wait in between issues really kills the momentum, especially if you're not picking up any of the other tie-in titles.

Also, I've been getting the "red stripe" covers for Final Crisis, and looking at the first three issues next to each other, it seems the shade of red is getting darker with each issue. A nice touch...

DC UNIVERSE LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT: No real connection to FINAL CRISIS, though it's set on the night before a pivotal battle.

Some good scenes- Grace and Rocky (of the Challengers of the Unknown-- who has somehow or the other become a spiritual confessor to the heroes of the DCU)... Captain Cold playing hero... Clark and Pa Kent on a porch... glimpses of Wally and Linda, Oracle and Commisioner Gordan, Wildcats Senior and Junior, Liberty Belle and Hourman, a scene between Batman, Nightwing and Robin that didn't quite make sense to me, a page of Starfire that fairly shouts the poor girl *really* needs to move one, a great concluding panel with Wally and Hal Jordan...

... but the meat of the story is Geo-Force's struggle with a decision of what to do when he goes after Deathstroke. It's an interesting process and the conflict is full of twists and turns. I'm not sure yet what I think of the 'duel' yet, but I think it was told in a compelling way.

It certainly paints Prince Brion Markov in shades of gray. Murky ones, at that. Which finally makes him a fitting member of the OUTSIDERS (I never thought he belonged there, frankly). Maybe that was the purpose behind Geo-Force's story here.

ROGUE'S REVENGE 2: Weather Wizard is becoming quite the interesting fella, here. It was his turn.

Where I didn't enjoy the slaughter in this month's Teen Titans, here it didn't bother me at all.

I'm sort of worried for Piper, now. There's only one issue left, with a lot to resolve.

Inertia in the Kid Flash suit is just so wrong.

My normal CBS was completely sold out by early evening on Wednesday, so I was assuming I wouldn't get to read it. I tried a store a little farther away a few days later, and they had about 15 copies. (I've noticed odd discrepancies in issue demand among the stores around here.)

I liked this one-shot quite a bit. It definitely fleshed out Geo-Force for me -- and illuminated some other characters that I hadn't really been that familiar with.

Has anyone read SUPERMAN: BEYOND 3-D #1? It was weird, but compelling. All that exposition about the "bleedstorm," "ultramenstruum," "overshadow," "echo of midnight," etc. just seemed like meaningless babble. The characterizations were solid, though, and it was nice to see the old school Captain Marvel from Earth-5. (Is it me, or has Ultraman been everywhere these days?)

And no, I didn't detach the 4-D "overvoid viewers."

SUPERMAN:BEYOND -- Interesting new insights about the mechanics of the new DCU incorporating the Bleed. Cute Yellow Submarine reference. The "Quantum Superman" of Earth-4 (a version of Captain Atom that's more Dr Manhattan than Capt Atom) makes me wonder what the Question of Earth-4 is like. And what's with the Monitor/Vampire chick?

DCU:Last Will & Testament -- It seems wrong to me that this is used to wrap up Meltzer's Geo-Force/Deathstroke storyline. It was done well, but why here of all places? I would've preferred more scenes like the Superman/Pa Kent one, but with bigger characters than friggin' Geo-Force. The continuity's a little jarring too since I have no idea where within Final Crisis this is supposed to take place. The final page with Green Lantern makes it all worth it though.

Father Time heads the SHADE organaisation, seen in both "7 Soldiers" and "Freedom Fighters". Frankenstein was "recruited" in his part of 7 Soldiers.

The Brotherhood of Evil dropped a Chemo on it during Inifinte Crisis and destroyed the entire city. What's left is a stew of toxic waste.

We don't know yet, though Überfräulein is undoubtedly linked to Übermencsh from "Superman: Beyond"

Mr. Tawky Tawny has been a Marvel Family character for a long, long time.

Shiloh Norman, the World's Greatest Escape Artist and understudy for Scott Free (though it seems he doesn't remember Scott for some reason). He was the main character in 7 Soldiers: Mr. Miracle, which sets up a lot of the New Gods stuff we see here.
He's been around since the One Year Later stuff. The original Aquaman has been transformed into an underwater creature/demi-god of sorts who advises the new A-Man.
Bad editorial?

BTW, I'm diggin' it.

Thank you for answering my questions - nearly missed it as I was busy going on a holiday and bashing Final Crisis over on other boards like CBR

The series it all comes down to seems to be Seven Soldiers. As I hated nearly everything Morrison wrote over the last decade, I'm still not tempted to hunt these series down. But the question remains: How many of these Seven soldiers series have there been - and does DC really expect us to have read all of them to actually get into what the hell is happening in Final Crisis?

Just learned (over at the board, not by reading the first three issues) that there has been a war in heaven which Darkseid won. Of course it was nowhere to be seen, it happened off-panel. How ridiculous is that???

Seven.



There actually were two bookend books (#0 & #1) and then one four-issue series for each Soldier (Shining Knight, Manhattan Guardian, Klarion the Witch Boy, Bulleteer, Zatanna, Mr. Miracle and Frankenstein). I think the whole thing is collected across three TPBs, although if your shop is like mine, you can get the majority of the issues out of the cheap bins.

Which, in my opinion is exactly where they belong!

The Seven Soldiers event made about as much sense as digging a hole in your back yard and then refilling it for no reason whatsoever.

Final Crisis is starting to feel the same to me. The one shots and tie in series are much more understandable and enjoyable then the main series.

I guess I just don't get Grant Morrison and his pseudo intellectual claptrap. It's more fun to try to "see" the masterpiece created by a puddle of spilled tomato juice.

:barf:

I'm beginning to think I'll need a bong and some classic ELO playing in the background to make any sense of this.

I was gonna describe the storytelling in FC as "impressionistic," where you are required to assemble in your brain a coherent narrative from brief glimpses of things. But sometimes it's downright "pointilistic," or even "point-LESS-istic" as to what's goin' on and should I care. I generally like Morrison's stuff, in the same way that I liked Kirby's original 4th World series. But where Kirby had both grandeur and heart (if not coherent plot and dialogue), FC so far feels too small and too detached and clinical for the subject matter. Sitting at my desk as I type this, I can't remember WHY Shilo Norman is looking for Sonny Sumo, WHY Alan Scott activates the draft when he does, WHY Wonder Woman decides to go into Bludhaven. And until I read Morrison's Newsarama interview, I had no F-ing Clue what was goin' on with Montoya, Frankenstein and SHADE.

I'm glad that Legion fans seem to be on my side of "interpreting" Morrisons "masterwork". Over at CBR, it seems mixed - some people rally around Morrison and call it "challenging the reader". I rather call it "overexetring my patience". Like Doublechinner said, Morrison is just providing bits and pieces of a story and instead of feeling challenged (as I did by 5YL, for example), I constantly am asking the question "why should I care". Who is Shilo Norman, who is Sunny Sumo, who are 80% of the people running around in this series and why should I care for them when Morrison does not manage to make me care???

I think when you need half an hour of Internet research to find out what's actually going on in a comic book, then there's something rotten in the state of DC - and it's not Vee's tomato juice

Manhattan Guardian, Klarion the Witch Boy, Bulleteer???? I really have a big fondness for second stringer characters, but this is bordering on the ridiculous - no wonder that, aside from being written by Morrison which is a bad sign to begin with for me, it did not sparkle my interest when it came out.

As for cheap bins, unfortunately German comic books shops aren't big on cheap bins - my favorite shop doesn't have any of them left. We have to use German Ebay as a giant cheap bin, which is also a lot of fun

Wow! No FC review yet?! Have folks lost interest?

I picked up FC #4, and the companion book FC:Submit. Read Submit first if you get it. You don’t need it, but it’s a nice aside, and would have been a great way to fill in the gap between #3 & 4, timewise.

FC:Submit is the story of Black Lightning in the worldscape. We get an idea of how fractured the super-hero community is, but this focuses mostly on BL and his encounter with the Tattooed Man. It’s a great read, gives us a “street level” perspective on this event.

FC #4 picks up shortly after, with the Ray making his return to the DCU. He’s delivering the Tattooed Man to the Hall of Justice, understaffed as it is. This issue shows us the scope of destruction done by the Anti-Life Equation. Our usual heroes are fractured, split across the globe, missing some of their biggest names. They plot to mount a rally, but you get the sense it’s so very little and so very late. We see Barry and Wally reunite, and face off with the Female Furies last seen in FC#3. And we see Dan Turpin resist his possession by Darkseid. Only not so much.

It’s grim and it’s dark and not cheery. The mix of artists is kept to story breaks, so it’s not killing any mood or momentum. I like both Jones and Pacheco, so it’s all good work to my eyes.

Aside from The Ray's return (which was great), and the goodbye between Black Canary and Green Arrow, I'm left cold by FC proper.

I'm pretty much sick of this variation of the New Gods. There's no surprises-- heroes are being corrupted/mind-controlled. We're told it's widespread, so it isn't a surprise when any individual hero gets one of those helmets slapped on their head.

What they've done with Mary Marvel just sickens me-- but at least she's not singled out anymore. So far, this doesn't seem at all worthy of the title 'FINAL' Crisis. I don't believe for a second that any of these changes are going to last beyond a year or so.

I echo many of thoughts here. Seven Soldiers was pretty good. I read it recently to help me understand Final Crisis.

Sadly I don't understand Final Crisis. Gods reincarnated as humans has been done to death! No editor should allow it. Marvel did it with Thor in the past and currently. They are doing it with the Eternals currently. Now Morrison with the New Gods. ugh.

The changing of artists I didn't like either.

The Ray was the only bright spot for me.

DC has been trying to milk the Infinite to Final Crisis thing for to long.

Aside from the involvement of "new gods," the premise of final crisis seems very legion-of-the-damned to me.

I ave a feeling all this will be turned on it's head, especially given the events in Superman Beyond, which imply there is a bigger Crisis occurring unseen while everyone worries about Darkseid (it also states their are similar Crisis's going on in each of the 52 Universes). It will either be very interesting or very frustrating when the heroes finally take it to Darkseid in Issue 6 only to have it end with the real threat rearing it's head.

Still haven't got #4 so no comment from me about it, but I'm really not very keen on reading it - hearing about another hardly known character like the "Tatooed Man" popping up doesn't exactly make me excited about the story. There's enough third-stringer characters running around in Final Crisis to ruin the experiernce for me. I really feel some kind of aggressiveness creeping up when I'm talking about FC thus far. Morrissons way of hardly showing anything makes me mad.

Turpin's tranformation was nice and creepy - the art really conveyed a sense of horror about Darkseid's return. Too bad the same can't be said for the attention paid to the slew of turned heroes. Their completely uniform look drained the threat of real drama. I'm sure it would've just sent the artwork back even later, but it's hard to ignore that lack of detail when over in "Secret Invasion" they at least give all those Skrulls unique amalgam looks of their own. It doesn't help that Wonder Woman's squad and Black Lightning still maintain some semblance of their old costumes. (since they were more than background I guess they rated having more attention)

Well, it's obvious now how this crisis can be resolved.

Just have Barry Allen kiss everyone who's infected with Anti-Life!

I didn't bother buying "Submit" because it was so narrowly focused on Black Lightning (and The Tattooed Man). "Resist" is apparently focused on Mr Terrific and Checkmate. I'm sorry, but for something that's supposed to be important enough to rate the "Crisis" moniker, I want to see the more important characters of the DCU.

I'm just getting so fed up with all this build up for stories that take way too long to tell that are only "important" because we're told they are when the stories themselves lack drama and plot.