Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! LSH 45 ~~~~~~~~~~~~ SPOILERS!

That Jo didn’t do it “right” yet succeeded beyond his wildest imaginings should tall us something.

Though the possible underlying causes are multitudinous and still pretty fuzzy (we shouldn’t expect Shooter to lay all his cards on the table so early in the game), the growing opinion seems to be that Imra is not in her right mind. There are enough clues in this issue to make it a solid theory, anyway,

Jo’s an animal but he’s not a monster. I predict he’s going to feel pretty goddamn lousy when he realizes he hit on a “sick” woman, and he’ll try to right his wrongs somehow. That’s my hypothesis of the month.

It tells *me* that Jo wasn't the one who called Imra back into that room. Imra is the one who made the decision. I don't see Imra as a victim (and certainly not a victim of mental manipulation by that legendary psychological mastermind Jo!), I see her as a young woman who made a choice.

Was it a great choice? Who knows?

Hopefully nobody is ready to judge her for making it, as if the little lady doesn't have the right to choose for herself or should be judged based on her sex choices.

Garth has been a pretty lousy boyfriend lately. Jo certainly doesn't seem like he'd be a step up, so she seems to be jumping from a frying pan into a fire, here, but the choice is hers.

There's only one person in that room that could make that choice for her, and, somewhat ironically, the only person on the team who could make a choice like that for someone else (not that I think she ever would), happens to be Imra herself.

Do I think Jo's a great choice or 'Mr. Right?' Nope. But he is 'Mr. Right Now.' And I don't think Imra is 'sick' for making that choice, anymore than I think Ayla or Tasmia are 'sick' for having also made that choice.

It's not like Imra's married, and it's not like she's been getting anything but neglect from her boyfriend.

*I* think that Imra's made an impulsive choice that isn't going to lead to any sort of long-term happiness (nor, frankly, do I think Imra *expects* any sort of long-term relationship with Jo!), but I wouldn't feel comfortable judging a woman's mental health or morality or whatever based on that sort of thing.

“Sick” was too strong a word. ‘Traumatized” is better.

Long time ago, Shooter conferred with a psychologist (or was it a psychiatrist?) before writing the scene where Hank Pym slaps Jan Van Dyke to ensure he was working on firm psychological ground. Hank’s wasn’t “sick” but, as Shooter explained later, his state of mind was deeply affected by his previous failures to the point he wasn't in complete control of his faculties. (Unfortunately, later writers made that scene the sum and substance of Pym and he spiraled into a practically unusable character, something Shooter didn’t intend when he wrote it.)

So for you or anyone to brush off the contributory role of mental and physical trauma in Imra’s situation is premature in light of Shooter’s demonstrated interest in probing the problems and complexities of the psyche.

That being said, I do agree Imra won't escape responsibility for her actions, nor should she get away scot free. I think the real story is how she deals with the consequences– or not – and how the schism between the two founders will effect the entire team in the face of mortal danger from beyond. Now, *that’s* the stuff of good writing, imo.

I'm sure Imra knows that she is considered attractive by human standards. She's attracted to the bad boy even though she knows she shouldn't be. When she says "don't look at me" and "you think I'm dumpy" well.... I just see that as fishing for compliments.

Also, maybe Jo never noticed her before with the cape on and the hair pinned up. Her new costume emphasizes the hourglass figure and nowadays her blond hair is longer and is free flowing. She does look hotter.

Has anyone seen this? An italian zine has posted 2 script pages from LSH #45 and, as you can see, Shooter is pretty full on them. This might hold further accusations of bad writing from him...

English version is a the bottom of the page. I found it really enlightning. There is also a long interview about his career at the same place. Thanks to Legion Outpost for the link the first time.

AHHH!! if only we could have the script to the pages with the imra stuff @__@ *fist shaking*

actually... you know i'm wondering if these are the actual script pages that were handed off to the artists...? they sound really strange to me, as in they give a lot of detail that is strange to give an artist. i know every writer is different but... i've never seen a script page like that before! even in you know, those books that have sample scripts and things like panel discussions

and you know, the stuff you get in the back of special edition trades?

the weirdest sounding part is i was actually hoping for some transparency on this line M’RISSEY O-kay…all right, then. because that sounded really weird to me, so much that i thought maybe it was a typo or something, that the ellipsis came at the wrong time or... something?!! it just stuck out to me and i had no idea if he was feeling accomplished or...?

so... i don't know if shooter weirdly writes way, WAY too much info for the poor artist for no reason, or if this was just a doctored up script for the article so it'd read nicer than a boring page of dialogue.

Cool! Thanks. The bit about how the Legion's leadership crisis is inspired by his own experiences is quite englightening.

Another very provocative issue in so many ways. BTW, maybe I'm just an old fogey-prevert, but I thought Shooter's script was pretty standard stuff. The Fonz reference really dates him, but he is old, after all. He put a lot of description into M'Rissey's depiction because that's the new character, it's his scene, and Shooter wants to make sure the scene has the right visual subtext. What's the big deal?

Regarding Imra and Jo...Look, Imra's clearly NOT dumpy, by any absolute measure, but that doesn't mean she has a good self-image. And, compared to Light Lass, Shadow Lass, Princess Projectra, Triplicate (3 Dates at Once) Girl, even Phantom Girl, she has been the most modest and reserved and least glamorous female Legionnaire so far in the 3boot. So, compared to the the immediate competition, she has been kinda hausfrau-y. Whether she is in her right mind or not, I really couldn't say. She's always been the most opaque (or perhaps, complex) character to me over the years, alternately stern and commanding and soft and sexy. Shooter seems to be distilling that tension and channeling it into the current story, which makes perfect sense. Also, Shooter has a well-established if controversial record on the Legionnaires' sex lives being more unconventional and less faithful than standards allowed him or anyone else to portray. And frankly, why wouldn't they, being hot, powerful adolescents living without adult supervision (ever WATCH Real World)? No doubt, though, that this is more than a casual liaison -- we're seeing a real story arc with Imra here, which, panel hog or no, I always tend to enjoy.

I've read all these posts, and I can't believe nobody has mentioned what I thought was the obvious, maybe too obvious worth mentioning?

-The resemblance of that planet leader lady(forget her name) to whom Garth was obviously attracted, to the adult Imra from the Lightning Saga Action storyline.

Also, although I have nothing against this M'orissy (sp?) character, I find him somewhat redundant. Any of his PR/business stunts could've easily been performed by Brainy. I hope there's another dimension/use for this character.

Duely noted earlier in this and the CTR thread.

She also wears colors associated with Saturn Girl (pink/magenta). Plus, her initials "KK" immediately preceed "LL" in the alphabet and are alliterative, too!

That's Destiny at work (or just me being very weird.)

With the continued use of her first name by Lightning Lad and everyone else using her title, and even with others correcting Lightning Lad on how he addresses her, it certainly suggests that the two are already familiar with one another on a more personal note. I also agree with those that think the issues handled by M'Rissy, they could have just as easily been performed by Brainiac 5 and given the Legion and who's who, I think it would have made more sense. Perhaps this M'Rissy will indeed reveal more of his capabilities later on. Time will tell.

Very interesting. I took Garth calling the Prez by her first name as his complete inability to handle formality and protocol, but I also did note that his folksiness came with a very solicitous, personal concern for her on Garth's part. Of course, the two could go very well together -- Lightning Lad relates to people on a personal level, rather than according to their job or role.

I'm thinking that had Lightning Lad simply been unfamiliar with protocal that the Preseident would have put him in his place and reminded him or her postion of importance.

I kind of like that Brainy is left to his own agenda while M'Rissey gets to deal with the political meanderings on a more day-to-day basis. In fact, it seems M'Rissey is more cunning at this than 3boot Brainy, who is much more extreme and un-political than the original Brainy.
As for Shooter's script, he says in the interview I mentioned this is exactly the script he sends Francis (and praising him a lot at that) and I've seen other writers with the same approach he has (meaning very detailed scripting). Remember that Shooter is also an artist, so he does think visually. And it also proves how much into Legion he still seems to be.

Perhaps M'rissy's role is to be more people smart,given his PR role, over Brainy who will be relegated to being book/tech smart.

I dunno, he handled formality and protocol okay in his past dealings with Ambassador/Councilor Ardeen, but I don't remember him calling her "Sydney".

I'm wondering if Shooter toyed with the provocative idea of a Garth/Sydney liaison before inventing the look-alike President Kieselbach. (Boy, do I have a dirty mind!)

I was thinking that Garth's "complete inability to handle formality and protocal" was a reaction to his previous folding under pressure AND M'Rissey's upstaging of Garth in front of this new president. BTW, where did she come from all of sudden after 45 issues?

Though I'm usually of the mind to let the writer play out their story before offering any criticisms on what they are doing; after reading this issue several times the Ultra Boy/Saturn Girl scenes seem very creepy and out of character the more that I read them. I have been having a problem with the team dynamic in this volume of the LSH and these scenes only add to that problem. If this were some random chick in a bar perhaps I could better understand Jo hitting on her, but this is a team-mate. He is getting into her head not to build her up for future battles together nor to further the team but instead for some quicky? In a pantry? While the world may be coming to an end? It just doesn't work for me. Both Saturn Girl and Ultra Boy should be better than that.

finally got a copy!

The Jo and Imra scene was a bit odd, but I'll get back to that.

The thing that jarred the most in the whole issue was Garth pretty much being a total jerk when he asked Imra to go on the mission. There was no sympathy there for her physical state at all! Rubbish as a leader, rubbish as a boyfriend! And then he just walks off... There was more emotional energy between Gim and Salu. I'm definitely getting the feeling that there's something not quite right at Legion Central - there are too many characters acting a *little* too off, and I don't think it's just LSH v3 character differences or Shooter challenging expectations.

Moan no.2: music of the spheres my @$$. I was hoping for some grand, sweeping artwork and some drama... but we get 5 pages of Star Trek geekisms and Ayla and Thom looking constipated. The balance in the plotlines is not right at the moment...

Jo and Imra.
I liked Imra's truncated style of speech - it makes sense for a telepath for cut to the quick of a conversation, although it could also be her fatigue coming out as well. It also highlights the fact that *technically* Imra is an alien...

For the dumb jock of the group, Jo is very insightful here. Imra doesn't actually deny anything he says. He gets into her head very successfully. Just another aspect of Jo v3, or another sign of something going on with the Legionnaires - an outside influence? There are a lot of small disruptions that are hampering their effectiveness...

"I wouldn't do that..! Never!" what was he thinking? Is Imra suddenly a prude again? She was suggesting S&M stuff with Garth a few issues ago, so why the switch? Maybe Jo is REALLY kinky... but he ran like hell at the thought of group sex with the Trips and the the other lads...
Then: "Don't worry, I don't mess with other guys' girls." ... but then he does... hormones? The Horn? Outside Big Bad manipulating people?
Strange... (and I don't care how into a person you are when you're in The Moment, you'd STOP if you heard someone talking to you outside the door!)

Stupid question: if Action Legion is the 'official' future, as it has Superman in it, why did Supergirl end up in the Threeboot?

First of all, in the dance of human mating it is not unusual for there to be lots of false verbal positionings. I thought Shooter handled that brilliantly.

Re: "Offiical" futures: We don't know yet.

I think I'm more curious as to what Jo was actually thinking about! lol

here Shooter was wise... leaving it to our own perverted imaginations!

The presence of the Life-Eradicator planet drawing closer to (and now inside) their solar system could somehow be eradicating their reason – and in theory its effects would probably hit people with mental powers first and worst – Imra and Projectra. The solicit for #47 suggests that Brainy will be the next Legionnaire to go “mental”.

I’m not advocating this theory as a desirable outcome, but it’s not impossible.

Finally caught up and got to the CBS.

Have to admit, from reading the thread I expected much worse than I got regards Saturn Girl.


Agreed the characterisation doesn't fit most depictions and not this one that has a few years under her belt but not so out of line of what she might have been early on in the last boot. As a kid so different and isolated from everyone else her age on Titan and being shipped off to a foreign culture like Earth and seeing teens in "normal" relationships, I could see how a kid who wasn't making friends, particularly boy/girlfriends might feel dumpy and ugly. In that boot she really hadn't been raised to be confident, that I recall.

I enjoyed the issue and liked most of the set-ups.