Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Sexist presentations of female characters in Legion titles

Sorry for the dry title, couldn't think of a snappy way to put it

Something else else that arose from this thread was the representation of female characters in the Legion comics, and how they're often oversexualised in both their costumes and the way they are presented visually (in my opinion anyway).

Looking at the current roster of both the main team and the LL team, we've got Shadow Lass and Dream Girl whose costumes are essentially bikinis/bathing suits.

Lightning Lass, Phantom Girl and Dawnstar are a little more modestly attired, but two of them have boob windows and the other essentially wears a tanktop over a pair of panties.

Glorith, Shrinking Violet, Dragonwing and Chameleon Girl are the only female members of the team who are actually more or less fully clothed (I'm not really sure how to categorise Harmonia Li and Comet Queen - if Harmonia is actually a Legionnaire she hasn't been seen in anything other than street clothes yet, and CQ has a full bodysuit, but it is colored to be pretty much indistinguishable from her skin these days so it kind of presents the illusion of nudity to a degree).

By contrast, the most any of the male Legionnaires ever bare is their faces and sometimes their arms. The exception here is Tellus, but I'm not even sure whether Tellus is meant to be male or female (or genderless or hermaphroditic for that matter).

So we've got *maybe* one nekkid boy Legionnaire compared to roughly half the women on the team being dressed provocatively.

What are people's thoughts on this?

At the risk of stating the obvious: My thoughts are that comics creators might just as well bluntly state that they don't write and draw for female readers and that they never plan on doing so. They might as well just point blank state that they don't want us around, despite their paradoxical complaint that they can't get new readers to plunk down good green money for these books.

I will say that I love the new BoP for attempting to buck this trend. I'm sad that I can't afford to buy it at the moment, because it's a rare thing to see women drawn and costumed a bit more practically, and it should be supported.

Unless you turn the book into Buffy (come to think of it, Buffy/Spike is a lot like Shadow Lass/Earth Man), you're not going to get most female readers to like superheroes no matter how they're drawn. It's like saying "how can we get female viewers for NASCAR races?"

I don't think that your statement is true.
As a girl, I read the Legion of Super Heroes, Supergirl, Wonder Woman, Lois Lane, Superboy, Superman, Aquaman, the Teen Titans, X-Men, the Avengers, the Fantastic Four, Batman, the Phantom, Batgirl, Spiderman, the Fly, plus quite a few others like Patsy Walker, Millie the Model, Sgt. Fury and the Howling Commandos, Shield.

One thing that I didn't have to think much about was heroines with their boobs hanging out and their limbs spralled open.

There was some of that, I guess, but even Wonder Woman's costume was modestly drawn, as were almost ALL of the others.
Remember Curt Swan and Jack Kirby?

Girls are the biggest readers of fantasy books and certainly equal to boys in their love of mysteries and even sci-fi.
And they love art.

There is at lot of girls in the manga market today.
If they stay away from mainstream comics today, it's because the market catered to is mostly immature male libidos.
Hmmmph!

I think taking a leaf out of Buffy's book would be awesome! Buffy kicks ass without needing to look like she's off to a fetish party to do it...Charmed, Xena the Warrior Princess, Ripley in the Aliens movies, Sarah O'Connor in Terminator 2...there are strong examples in other media of how female characters can actually draw an audience without having to rely first and foremost on their sex appeal so I don't get why it seems like such a weird and undesirable concept for superhero comics?

The new BoP is a great example of how to make it work. Obviously they're all attractive because duh comics, but every single one of them are presented like competent fighters with their own individual personalities and they're sexy without being objectified.

The last couple of itinerations of the Legion managed to do it too for the most part, so there should be no reason it can't be done now...

The more I see of Frank's designs, the more I miss Barry Kitson on the costume design front (well, except for his Sun Boy...).

Dream Girl was sexy, and not dressed for the beach, Projectra was sexy, and yet still wore pants, Shady was sexy as hell, and still wore pants, Ayla, portrayed as the most openly sexual of an already openly sexual team of young people, still wore pants.

Indeed, the one who flew around with the least clothing covering her skin was a character whose costume he didn't design, Supergirl.

We need more comic characters like Big Barda. Strong, sexy, atypical (for comics, anyway!) body type, fully dressed.

Ken, is your statement meant to be serious? NASCAR has boatloads of female fans, and comics-- ESPECIALLY the LSH-- USED to. The potential is VERY much still there to re-engage them.

Anyone who has spent any length of time on the internet around movie or pop culture sites has probably come across those articles/studies that prove women make up the bulk of horror movie opening weekends (I am talking SLASHER-type HORROR films). I myself always thought it was because of the "last girl standing" factor, in that these films traditionally leave only one castmember still standing at the end, and it is traditionally a female (YES, I know there are exceptions *glances at THE EVIL DEAD*).

Ladies in comics should be treated with HALF the respect ladies in slasher films are.

Yes, and? There's nothing which has no female fans. But there are things which have an imbalance. NASCAR has a 78% male fanbase, If you don't think that's a good enough example, use the Super Bowl or G. I. Joe.

There are things which have more male fans than female fans, not because female fans are discouraged, but just because the subject matter appeals to men more than to women. Superheroes are one of those.

If you're talking about superheroes, and if "boatloads" means "proportionately a lot more than now", I don't believe you. For one thing, the type of costume you complain about has existed since the 1970's, and before that there was sexism in comics that was a lot worse than just a few costumes. If "it's too dangerous for a girl". Night Girl stalking Cosmic Boy, or the planet Femnaz didn't discourage boatloads of fans, then costumes won't.

I think LSH is actually one of the less sexist superhero comics, which is not to say that it's innocent of sexism. Most Legion comics would comfortably pass the Bechdel test (two or more women who talk to each other about something other than men).

Because... why?

Because you say so?

The dudes who peddle this stuff have never made a serious, long-term effort to rethink who they sell and market to. And I can definitely tell you that I'd personally feel much more comfortable handing books like the LSH to other women and girls to read if not for the constant double standards about how men and women are posed and dressed.

The best we get is Paul Levitz telling us that, Oh, those peculiar females. They just don't understand comics like we manly men do. And Paul Levitz was a high-ranking editor at DC for years.



[ETA- and, "a few costumes" are sexist, Ken? Really? It's common practice in the industry. It's not just "a few costumes," for pity's sake.]

Frankly, I found the Spears midriffs every bit as annoying as boob windows. It was still the same old song: women have an eroticised, fetishized portion of our anatomy that must be exposed at all times if we're to expect anyone to pay attention to us. Our first purpose upon meeting the reader is to look trivial and decorative. Men get to stay covered. Nobody wants to look at men's bare flesh because being a man is <span style="font-size: 16px;">srs bizness, yo!</span>

:rolleyes:

Which is not to say that I dislike Kitson's art. But that syndrome makes me grind my teeth no matter where I see it and how good the technical/design skills are of the artists in question.

I don't care if anyone believes what I say. This IS the internet, after all, and I shan't be bothered to back myself up, so it is probably best to take anything read as possibly incorrect. SO you can believe me or not that the LSH historically had a larger proportion of female fans (gay fans, too... BOATLOADS of us gays j'adore the LSH)

By the way, I didn't complain about any of the costumes. I complained that you seem to think there is zero chance to engage females fans or that they shouldn't even attempt to BE engaged by superhero writers and artists.

That said, I'll apologize if the above sounds assholeish. I seem to be taking a leap about what you think of potential female comics readers and that isn't fair.

See, that's a thing where my tastes leave me completely out of touch. I think belly buttons are unattractive, so the idea that an exposed bellybutton was eroticized or fetishized hadn't occured to me. I guess, in retrospect, Barbara Eden wouldn't have had to wear a 'genie' (i.e. bellydancer) costume that covered up her bellybutton if that wasn't a commonly sexualized trait, back in the day...

Then again, a woman having exposed knees or shoulders was considered 'daring' back then, so, go figure.

Well, I am going to complain about the costumes. I, for one, am tired of the bikini costume, the bare midrift, and the boob window.

Larger than what?

Larger than some other comics? Sure. Large enough that there is more than one female fan on blogs or in fanzines to point to? Sure. Large as an absolute proportion, to the point where the general decline in comics sales could be solved by appealing to them more? No.

Try running a couple of numbers--they are guesses, but can give you an order of magnitude answer at least. Suppose that without sexist costumes the Legion would have an audience in the proportion of NASCAR. Suppose furthermore that half of the female fans the Legion would otherwise have are gone solely because of the costumes. And look at the immediately pre-new-DCU Legion sales of 21373. The sales would be pushed up to 24015, which would leave the Legion at #95 in the rankings.

Changing one comic is not going to single-handedly overcome perceptions about the whole industry, but it's a step in the right direction.

Nobody is saying that if female characters were all treated visually on par with male characters that sales would skyrocket, it's not about sales.

It's about the fact that roughly half the population are more often than not visually presented in comic books primarily for their sexual appeal above any other trait, and it's just not a nice way to treat people.

Why would you specifically choose to alienate and antagonise half the population when there is absolutely no need to and no benefit from doing so?

Ken, surely you don't really think that making an attempt to better appeal to 50% of the Earth's population (of potential comics fans) might not help sales, if it succeeds?

Umm... yes it was about sales:

Regarding the boatloads of gay fans, you'd think that would encourage the artists to show at least a few more pec windows...especially considering that the miracles of 31st-century fabric let them dress the females the way they do.

Not that I want to encourage showing more skin for either sex....

Back before modern-style costumes (which weren't possible because of the comics code back then), the stories were sexist. I didn't just make up the planet Femnaz, you know.

Legion Tracker-- I may be totally crazy. but I am *convinced* the current popular trend of sleeveless dudes in the LSH is a direct result of DC waking up and finally smelling the super-gay coffee!

Fair call, maybe I should rephrase that then. For me personally, it's not about sales, and I honestly don't think that anyone in general who wants a better representation of women in comics feels that way because they think it's going to make their favourite title sell more. People just want to be respected, and at the moment that's not happening as well as it could be.

You're right that the writing of women in comics now is generally heaps better than it used to be...who would ever have imagined in the 60's that the Invisible Girl would one day be the most powerful member of her team, or that the Wasp would lead a team of Avengers including Thor, Iron Man and Captain America? I applaud that, but why should we just accept that this is the best we can do when there is clearly room for improvement?

On a sidenote, according to the comic book sales figures for December 2011 , Batgirl and Batwoman are both in the top 30 - two titles which feature strong solo female leads who are fully dressed and visually interpreted as superheroes rather than sex objects. You could say that's got a lot to do with the Batman connection, and I'm sure it does, but they still beat Nightwing, Batwing and Batman Odyssey who also have that connection. Granted, Batman Odyssey is abyssmal so no surprise there, but I think it's fair to say it's an even playing field with Nightwing and Batwing.

Also interesting to note - Red Hood and the Outlaws, Catwoman and Voodoo are three titles whose whole schtick is that they are basically portraying women as sex objects, and only one of those has even made it into the top 40.

So if we are talking sales, it's not like it automatically damages sales to respect everyone equally and it's not like having boobs falling out everywhere is going to automatically guarantee success.

To be honest though, I couldn't really care less about the sales. I just think it's a respect issue.

Sexiness absolutely has a place in superhero comics. Certainly it should be on an even basis.

For example, I personally like that Ayla has a playful sexiness in her look, though it maintains a certain innocence to it. IMO, depictions of her never cross the line. If there was an outcry to 'put her in pants', I'd have to roll my eyes at that. She's been written as a strong character and a vulnerable character equally over the years and that makes her appealing; her visual is only a supplement to that.

I get though that there should be some more honesty about it and also it should be balanced.

All costume issues aside, I would like to see the female Legionnaires EMPOWERED more, similar to the way Marvel empowered the Wasp, Invisible Woman, Scarlet Witch, Storm, Polaris, Phoenix, etc. etc.

Across the board, the traditional female members have very passive powers compared to most of the men. They read minds, predict the future, walk through walls, shrink, create illusions, levitate, cast shadows, blah blah blah. The only girls who had any really assertive powers were Supergirl who almost never appeared and Lightning Lass.

Way back in Adv. 351, Dream Girl said "She[White Witch]'s taught me a few spells." Why not expand on that and have Nura turn to witchcraft? Why not bring Shadow Lass back to the powerhouse that Umbra was a couple of boots ago, with her darkforce powers? Why not have Violet retain her normal sized strength when she shrinks like Ant Man does? Or even gain "the proportional strength of a spider"? Why not expand Phantom Girl's density altering powers and make her more like the Vision or even Kono? I'm tired of her being arm candy for Ultra Boy since forever. I'd also like to see the women take more leadership positions in the Legion.