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Re: Re-Reads
Lard Lad #780958 07/22/13 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Paladin
In fact it would be great if we could all agree do a particular non-Legion re-read simultaneously at some point! nod


Avengers Forever would have been a great one! laugh

... hmmm we had some good times reviewing an Avengers run that Fanfic Lass really liked. Dev and I read them and commented with FL's comments. was fun. It was the Harras and Epting era.

I've been wanting to pick up and read this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Thor-Ragnarok...=22R8JBUEKW9D2&coliid=I30ERO7WKCSLEW

but it might be too wacky.

Re: Re-Reads
Lard Lad #780959 07/22/13 11:50 PM
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Dave Cockrum's 2nd X-Men run .. that weird extended space opera may be a hidden gem ... maybe.

Re: Re-Reads
Cobalt Kid #780970 07/23/13 04:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Cobalt Kid
The reason I think Songbird hasn't been an Avenger is because once that happens, its basically over for the Thunderbolts. She's basically the glue that holds that series together.


I was just thinking this very thing. Any iteration of the Thunderbolts without her has floundered, it seems, and turned into a kind of subpar Marvel attempt at making a Secret Six comic, without a third of the characterization or appeal.

Which makes it all the more mind-boggling that this character was taken from 'Screaming Mimi,' and turned into the glue for *anything,* ever.

Were I to make a top 10 list of crappy villains for Scourge to pump full of bullets and leave in a unmarked mass grave behind the Bar With No Name, Screaming Mimi would have been on the list twice.

And yet, a writer with more vision than I picked her up, dusted her off and re-imagined her into an amazing character. So what do I know? smile

(Ditto the Fixer, Beetle, Power Man and Moonstone, kind of dull one-note characters, picked up and re-made into Techno, Mach V, Atlas and Meteorite, of which, Moonstone has also really made out like a bandit, going on to become one of Marvel's go-to bad girls, now that Emma Frost is more or less a 'hero.')

.

Anywho, my thoughts on a re-read, colored obviously by the limited comic runs that I actually own;

Peter David's noir-esque Madrox mini
The first 12 or 24 issues of Alpha Flight
The first 12 or 24 issues of the Thunderbolts (original run)
Joss Whedon's run on the Astonishing X-Men
The Avengers Academy run
Avengers Forever (which I'd have to dig out of storage...)



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Re: Re-Reads
Set #781026 07/23/13 02:29 PM
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Regarding Avengers Forever, to echo one of Lardy’s comments, Carlos Pacheo kills it in that series. That’s the series that made me sit up and take notice of him. In terms of whether I’d enjoy it as much now knowing it was providing a lot of quick fixes to some awful and ill-conceived ideas in the then-recent history of the Avengers…I guess I don’t know. I’m actually curious if I’ll like it or not.

Originally Posted by Power Boy


... hmmm we had some good times reviewing an Avengers run that Fanfic Lass really liked. Dev and I read them and commented with FL's comments. was fun. It was the Harras and Epting era.

I've been wanting to pick up and read this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Thor-Ragnarok...=22R8JBUEKW9D2&coliid=I30ERO7WKCSLEW

but it might be too wacky.


If you read it, gear up for some far-out craziness! That is a really solid storyline, and probably Thomas’ best. It stands out for introducing a ton of Norse Gods to the series for the very first time, such as Herod, Hodur and *all* of the Norse Goddesses. If you really want to get whacky, though, you need to read the immediate 20 or so issues that build up to Thor #300. Those have to be one of the most complex, continuity-pornographic series of stories EVER in comics. It’s a storyline that I actually like. But I know more about Marvel Comics Thor than probably any single human being that ever lived or will live, even *I* get a little overwhelmed by it.

Originally Posted by Set
Originally Posted by Cobalt Kid
The reason I think Songbird hasn't been an Avenger is because once that happens, its basically over for the Thunderbolts. She's basically the glue that holds that series together.


I was just thinking this very thing. Any iteration of the Thunderbolts without her has floundered, it seems, and turned into a kind of subpar Marvel attempt at making a Secret Six comic, without a third of the characterization or appeal.

Which makes it all the more mind-boggling that this character was taken from 'Screaming Mimi,' and turned into the glue for *anything,* ever.

Were I to make a top 10 list of crappy villains for Scourge to pump full of bullets and leave in a unmarked mass grave behind the Bar With No Name, Screaming Mimi would have been on the list twice.

And yet, a writer with more vision than I picked her up, dusted her off and re-imagined her into an amazing character. So what do I know? smile

(Ditto the Fixer, Beetle, Power Man and Moonstone, kind of dull one-note characters, picked up and re-made into Techno, Mach V, Atlas and Meteorite, of which, Moonstone has also really made out like a bandit, going on to become one of Marvel's go-to bad girls, now that Emma Frost is more or less a 'hero.')




lol on Screaming Mimi appearing on your list twice!

Songbird really symbolizes just what a fantastic thing Busiek did with Thunderbolts, doesn’t she? The others, as you say, are all fantastic characters, but at least some of them had *some* prior bits to build on. (Though Busiek still was masterful in what he did with each). With Songbird, Busiek really just went all out.

I wouldn’t mind reading Thunderbolts #1-25 myself. I can actually remember exactly where I was when I read #1 (my parents dining room table, just after school), the issue where Techno saves Zemo and the Thunderbolts break into two groups (at the beach with my parents) and the issue where Moonstone kills that alien (in my room, getting “away” from my then little siblings). It was such an important series to me as a kid.

Re: Re-Reads
Cobalt Kid #781029 07/23/13 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Cobalt Kid
lol on Screaming Mimi appearing on your list twice!

Songbird really symbolizes just what a fantastic thing Busiek did with Thunderbolts, doesn’t she? The others, as you say, are all fantastic characters, but at least some of them had *some* prior bits to build on. (Though Busiek still was masterful in what he did with each). With Songbird, Busiek really just went all out.


He's really good, IMO, at taking characters that people haven't been taking seriously, and making them shine.

He introduced Hawkeye, Hercules and the Angel at various points in the Thunderbolts, and each of them was presented as a serious competent hero (and, in Hercules case, a force to be feared!).

Even with characters like Moonstone, he threw in some humor, to humanize a character who can be profoundly unlikable. (Like the scene where she's trying to convince Zemo not to do something terrible, but isn't feeling it, and goes off to have Jolt explain to her the moral argument she needs to be making. I loved that. "Is there any power those moonstones don't give you?" "The ability to make moral decisions, apparently.")

Old comic book questions like 'Why hasn't Reed Richards cured cancer?' which tend to get ignored in other titles, he just breezes by, with the tacit acknowledgement that Fixer/Techno just does crime for the fun of it, and lives quite comfortably off of all of his patents. What another title might casually ignore, super-scientist crooks robbing banks, instead of retiring bazillionaires with the patenting of their freeze ray or whatever, he addresses right to its face, saving your limited supply of suspension of disbelief for concepts like glowing pink 'hard sound wings.' smile

Bagley's art was also awesome, which really helped for me, 'cause I'm such an art snob. smile




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Re: Re-Reads
Lard Lad #781030 07/23/13 03:50 PM
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I would encourage any of you to sign up for Formspring just so you can ask Busiek any question you want to! I've recently asked him questions about Beast and Genis. Look here to see all the fan questions he's answered so far!


Still "Lardy" to my friends!
Re: Re-Reads
Lard Lad #781049 07/23/13 08:22 PM
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Another one I have wanted to get to recently is the Suicide Squad. Always enjoy it when I read through it.


Active LMB character is still Beast Boy.

Re: Re-Reads
Lard Lad #781050 07/23/13 08:28 PM
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^ That's a good one, Dev! I'd have to figure out which box(es) those are in in the attic. *sigh* That's an ongoing problem with most of the series that predate my living in this house.


Still "Lardy" to my friends!
Re: Re-Reads
Lard Lad #781054 07/23/13 09:57 PM
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I just completed my re-read of Ennis & Dillon's final year of Hellblazer, plus the Heartland special they did three years later that is a sequel to one of their Hellblazer issues (also entitled "Heartland") that focused on one of their supporting characters for Constantine, Kit Ryan. Kit was Constantine's love interest during their run, and Ennis used the spotlight issue and the later special to develop her background.

Part of this was some fascinating insight into what it was like to live day-to-day through the turmoil in Ireland. Unlike some of his other works that touch the subject, Ennis shows this from the viewpoint of non-combatants. Simple things like the sight of armed U.K. military transports patrolling the streets of Belfast being an ordinary fact of life, barely noticed. Garth has a gift for getting this thing across, as many of you know very well.

(As y'all can tell, I liked the "Heartland" bits a LOT! Makes me wish Ennis did an ongoing series out of it.)

As for the Hellblazer stories proper, Garth and Steve really went out in style! 72-75: "Damnation's Flame" had Constantine visit New York to kind of shake the cobwebs loose after a long depression-fueled bender. Unfortunately, a bad fellow named Papa Midnite finds out he's there and seizes the opportunity to get some revenge on John for crossing him in the past. John ends up lost in a nightmarish dreamtime version of America and encounters some "ghosts" of America's past and present, including JFK and American Indians. It's a pretty interesting, surreal adventure that, of course, gives garth a chance to do some scathing commentary on America and her dream.

76 and 77 are two great one-shots. The first has John meet up with the ghost of his dead friend Brendan, who happened to be with Kit when John first met her. There's some awkwardness about John dating Brendan's woman after he died, but it's mostly one of Garth's trademark "bar talk" stories, complete with a couple of flashbacks of John's history with Brendan. The second focuses on John's main supporting character Chas and what it is like to have a bloke like Constantine for a friend. Especially amusing is Chas's presence at an exorcism John performs. Since we see it from Chas's perspective, we never find out how John got out of a messy situation that was so dire that there's a funeral for Consatntine--which Constantine crashes! lol

We end with 78-83: "Rake at the Gates of Hell", the conclusion of the run. This storyline wraps of the overarching story that Garth set up at the beginning of his run with "Dangerous Habits". See, Constantine had contracted fatal lung cancer (Guess how? wink ) and made a literal deal with the devil, in this case the First of the Fallen, to save his life. Constantine being Constantine, he found a way to cheat the devil and get out of his part of the bargain. Well, the devil didn't take this well and finally figures out a way to cheat the cheat and reclaim his prize in this ultimate arc.

But "Rake" is hardly a six-issue battle with the devil. Garth uses the story to do some housekeeping and put some of his other subplots to bed. Among these is a big racial conflict at the center of the story that Garth had been building for awhile, revolving around an incident with a young black man whom Constantine knows that mushrooms out of control. In a way it serves as a metaphor for the devil coming to London. And as usual, Ennis has a lot to say on the subject. Plus, we see many of Constantine's friends pay the price for their association with him. And once again, Constantine prevails by being the sneaky bastard he is!

As many of the contributors of this thread are big fans of Preacher, I heartily recommend Ennis' entire run on Hellblazer. It's not as perfect as Preacher, but you can see Garth grow into a great writer as the run progresses. If nothing else, do yourself a favor and read "Dangerous Habits". It's an outstanding beginning to the run. The only downside is that Dillon (and the great Glenn Fabry on covers) comes along later, and Will Simpson's art isn't near that standard.

The run is an essential part of Ennis's bibliography, so if you're a fan and haven't read--or re-read--his run on this book, you're missing out, mate!


Still "Lardy" to my friends!
Re: Re-Reads
Power Boy #781073 07/23/13 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Power Boy
Dave Cockrum's 2nd X-Men run .. that weird extended space opera may be a hidden gem ... maybe.


I've thought about Claremont-era X-Men re-reads off and on since I read my Masterworks collecting GS 1 & 94-100 a few months ago. What I eventually want to do is re-read from 100 to about 200 in the not-too-distant future. The main hindrance is that I have a gap between 100 and the DPS that I originally filled with the Classic X-Men floppy reprint series. I really want to read those stories as originally presented, without the new deleted scenes that that series added. Turns out successive Masterworks are fairly expensive, even the softcovers, so it may be awhile. Plus, my originals are up in the attic among a multitude of long boxes. So that re-read is a ways off.

Why stop at 200, you ask? Well, I'm of the opinion that Claremont's run is mostly pretty terrible after that point (a turn that started even earlier around Secret Wars) and wasn't helped by the incessant cross-overing. That's when the X-product started being diluted with spin-off after spin-off, something that's gotten much worse, obviously, ever since. When Jim Lee came aboard there was a creative infusion that at least sent Claremont out with a bang.


Still "Lardy" to my friends!
Re: Re-Reads
Lard Lad #781208 07/25/13 08:51 AM
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About two years ago, I did a complete reread of the Claremont X-Men from start to finish, and even kept going all the way up to the wedding of Jean & Scott. I even got out the New Mutants, X-Factor and X-Force issues and read all the crossovers.

And you know what? It was awesome. Far better than I even remember. The initial Cockrum issues are mind-blowing. The Byrne issues are exactly what everyone has always said: pure and utter genius. The second Cockrum issues stumble at first and then have a series of awesome stories. And to my shock…I actually loved the X-Men stories that followed. I loved Paul Smith and JR Jr. And I even loved the Silvestri issues—when I was prepared to dislike them. The Mutant Massacre holds up *really well*, and so does even Fall of the Mutants. The Australia issues do drag, but they include the awesome first Genosha story, and when read at a large clip, they go by really fast. And then after the Siege Perilous, IMO, the series stays A+ quality right on through to the launch of X-Men #1. *And*, from there, even post Claremont, the energy and fun of the adjectiveless X-Men title—plus killer artwork—makes it a total blast.

I know you’re a bit biased Lardy, but I think you might actually enjoy some of those post Secret Wars II issues that I know killed the series for you. (And I’m recalling a conversation we had on this way back in 2000 or 2001 on the DCMB’s.

I wish I had reviewed the X-Men and Thor runs when I reread them a few years ago like I did with Iron Man in that thread, as I went through and read every issue and considered all the things that I might have missed the first time(s) around.

Re: Re-Reads
Lard Lad #781209 07/25/13 08:56 AM
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Also, Suicide Squad is a real good one. The first two issues are a contender for best opening first issues of a series EVER.

Lardy, you’re reviewing of Ennis and Dillon’s Hellblazer has suddenly moved these issues to the front of the pile for me to read!! They sound awesome! And as a diehard Ennis fan, I must read them. Are they collected in easily accessible trades, do you know? My Hellblazer reading is very spotty at best, and I’ve only ever read Azzerello’s run.

Re: Re-Reads
Cobalt Kid #781215 07/25/13 11:19 AM
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I can't second New Frontier or Sandman Mystery Theatre highly enough. My first published letter was in a late issue of SMT providing a love letter to the Wagner era.

I feel weird recommending this in a thread with so much better material in it, but... I think every Legion fan should try the late 60s/70s version of the Guardians of the Galaxy. Other versions have their charms, but something about that early version evokes a similar feel in me to the LSH. Admittedly, that may be in part because I discovered them around the same time.

I recently reread Grant Morrison's Animal Man and Doom Patrol runs. I still think those are amongst the best things he's ever done, and I'm a GM fan. Certainly, nothing he's done since has their emotional power. He became a very cerebral writer after this. Admittedly, DP drags a bit in the last third, but it delivers at the end.

Originally Posted by Paladin
One example is how could the Vision be made from the body from the original Human Torch when the Torch had recently returned to action?


Forgive me for being a little pedantic, but I think you misunderstood what Busiek was doing in that portion of the story. John Byrne actually revealed in his late 80s (early 90s?) run that Human Torch and Vision were separate entities. His logic was "Human Torch was an android. Vision is a synthezoid. How can one be a redesign of the other?"

I personally liked this, not least because it opened the door for the Human Torch to return, which you mentioned. A lot of fans were attached enough to the old view that they hated it, though. Apparently Kurt Busiek was one of them, leading to the fix you refer to in Avengers Forever.

Originally Posted by Cobalt Kid
CoIE is actually spectacular.


Every time I've tried to reread CoIE as an adult, I have always come to the same assessment: everything you've said captures my feelings about the first 7 issues. Then I feel the book drags for a few issues, then pulls it back together for a decent finish, but even that still doesn't compare to issue 7 for emotional climax.

Now, I haven't read it in several years, so my opinion may change. I'm currently doing a reread of bronze age books that will climax (eventually) with CoIE. Do you think you can present an interpretation to give me a better appreciation for the back half, or do you think this is probably just an agree-to-disagree thing?

ETA:
Originally Posted by Cobalt Kid
About two years ago, I did a complete reread of the Claremont X-Men from start to finish.... And you know what? It was awesome. Far better than I even remember.


I started reading the book during the second Cockrum era (#147. I can still picture the cover perfectly...) I read the book constantly for over 100 issues, and sporadically for many, many years after. Despite how long I kept reading the book, I felt like it just got further and further off track after the mutant massacre.

But reading Sean Howe's excellent History of Marvel Comics has given me a different viewpoint. I still don't really care for the actual writing on many of those stories, but I absolutely give credit to Claremont for one thing. He continued to treat the book as a labor of his personal vision instead of as a franchise that needs to be protected and kept in proper shape to be exploited as IP. It was the last major Marvel book to keep the feeling of wild experimentation that marked the 70s environment that launched it. And even if I felt the experiments were largely unsuccessful, I have to salute that spirit.

Last edited by Dave Doty; 07/25/13 12:00 PM.
Re: Re-Reads
Brain-Fall-Out Boy #781219 07/25/13 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Doty

Originally Posted by Cobalt Kid
CoIE is actually spectacular.


Every time I've tried to reread CoIE as an adult, I have always come to the same assessment: everything you've said captures my feelings about the first 7 issues. Then I feel the book drags for a few issues, then pulls it back together for a decent finish, but even that still doesn't compare to issue 7 for emotional climax.

Now, I haven't read it in several years, so my opinion may change. I'm currently doing a reread of bronze age books that will climax (eventually) with CoIE. Do you think you can present an interpretation to give me a better appreciation for the back half, or do you think this is probably just an agree-to-disagree thing?


I’ve given this a little thought, and let’s see if I can express what I’m thinking. I agree that the first 7 issues really is what nails what makes this series so great, and sets a standard for not only the rest of the series, but all superhero comics of that era. Like we’re both saying, it comes down to pacing, story structure, dialogue, maximum characterization in minimal panel space, usage of an over-abundance of characters, ability to use continuity as a set-up and then allow the characters to react organically, etc.

From there, however, Wolfman and Perez are faced with an interesting issue: what to do to get the series to 12 issues long? Clearly the story isn’t over yet, there’s a lot of time to get to 12 issues, and this came out during an era (following Camelot 3000) that 12 issue series were kind of the benchmark. So what they do, and I think quite successfully, is a few things.

First, in #8, they advance the plot much more slowly, while focusing on the subplot of the Flash and giving him the send-off he deserves. I actually really love this issue and think the Flash’s end is incredibly dramatic. It’s not as heartfelt as the Supergirl death, but it captures something else: the totally science-fiction-ness and grandiose nature of Flash adventures, specifically in the form that Schwartz, Broome, Kanigher and Infantino first presented the character in. The way he dies, which is incredibly heroic, just fits the Flash. And in this issue, it also advances Wally West as another major person the reader can link to emotionally (while at the same time, backing away on a few others).

From there, Marv and George turn the focus on another “mini-story” / subplot to keep things moving along, which is namely the villains all rising up to conquer the multiple Earths. It keeps the series moving, wraps up a few subplots (Luthor / Braininac, Psimon, etc.) and also answers the question “what are all the villains doing?” since by now this was clearly a DC series that was using all of its various heroes, so therefore one must assume they would use all their villains. Marv and George therefore take all the tools they used in the first 7 issues of the series on the heroes, and try to apply it to the villains in 1-2 issues. I think they succeed, and the reason is that while the villains get good play, the heroes get equally as much. It allows for a lot of intermixing that had never been seen before, such as the Atom (in full on Sword of the Atom gear) freeing Billy Batson and the other kids so the Marvels can join the fray.

From there, the last three issues are especially unusual in their pacing: you get the big Spectre showdown versus the Anti-Monitor, resulting in loss (which can be really blamed on the villains failure to hold up their end); then #11 introducing the post-Crisis DCU for the first time as the heroes struggle to understand just like the readers are; and then #12, the big finale. Going back to #10, I can see what Marv is trying to accomplish: he clearly had in his mind how the heroes would finish off the A-M in #12 but needed to address why certain others aren’t involved: the magic-users (especially the Spectre), the other time heroes (key among them the Legion), the villains and a whole bunch more. While he is able to give the magic-users something to do here, this issue also kind of takes a lot of these characters off the board, so the story can begin shrinking again to a more manageable finale. If there is any single issue in CoIE that *almost* goes off the rails, its #10, though its still loaded with great moments, including how the massive group of heroes is able to even confront the A-M in the first place.

#11 hits next, and it brings with it a tone that no other issue of CoIE has. At first this can be jarring, but what Marv is doing now is introducing the concept of the combined Earths, combined history and a single Earth DCU. Superman and Batman provide great POV’s for the readers, since as being DC’s biggest icons, they essentially will hold our hands as we get used to this strange new reality. It’s interesting that the heroes remember the multiple Earths in this issue though later that wouldn’t be the case. It’s necessary here though for narrative reasons. This issue leaves the reader with an uneasy feeling because (A) it’s a whole new world and (B) there’s still so much unfinished business. And that second aspect rolls us right into #12.

As you say, you enjoyed the finale yourself. I personally love this issue and think its nothing short of brilliant. First there is the big attack on the A-M by a smaller group that allows Marv and George to really strut their stuff by showcasing strategy, powers, action, etc. Then there is the pure sense of panic on Earth, complete with deaths of heroes we know are being removed from the board (E2 Robin, E2 Green Arrow, etc.). There’s also the small roles others play like the aforementioned magic-users. And throughout it all, Marv makes sure to keep the story down to Earth by linking readers to specific characters like Kid Flash (and I admit I cry every time I read the final pages), Superman and Superman & Lois of Earth-2. Marv succeeds in a double-victory: first by the heroes combined and then next by Superman of Earth-2, who is really “the one who started it all” dying to save the DCU. There’s nothing more symbolic about the company pre-Crisis no longer being the same company post-Crisis.

I think these issues all present something individually appealing and are successful in that. But as you say, there is something that changes pacing-wise and tone-wise from the first 7 issues to these next five, and even more, it then changes each issue all the way to the end (with #12 being much like the first 7). I think they succeed every time, though it can get noticeable around the #9-10 range.

I am interested in your thoughts. What’s been missing from these crossovers ever since Crisis is the small scenes that now often get skipped over. When Wally West rejoining the Titans is in question, Cyborg asks Speedy what he decided and Speedy responds with “chalk one up for the good guys!”. We see Dr. Light meeting the heroes for the first time, some initial confusion, and Superman arriving to broker a quick peace. The interaction between Hawk & Dove and Red Star lasts just three panels…and in those three panels they get more characterization each than they had in the prior 15 years. Marv doesn’t just introduce Tomahawk for the sake of it—he takes the time to give you two panels that get to the heart of the character. It’s amazing!

Re: Re-Reads
Lard Lad #781221 07/25/13 12:33 PM
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Thanks for the interesting and compelling analysis. I'll have to reread the series in light of your comments. I'm tempted to do so now, but that would probably take away the impact when I reread it in a couple of years as the cap to my bronze age revisitation. Something else else to look forward to!

Re: Re-Reads
Lard Lad #781222 07/25/13 01:43 PM
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I'll look forward to it too! And please share the other pieces of your Bronze Age revisit! I'm definitely curious as to what you're reading and how you're finding it. The run-up to Crisis always felt like one of the very best eras in superhero comics ever, perhaps the only other time that has reached Golden Age or Silver Age heights.

Re: Re-Reads
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Originally Posted by Cobalt Kid
I know you’re a bit biased Lardy, but I think you might actually enjoy some of those post Secret Wars II issues that I know killed the series for you. (And I’m recalling a conversation we had on this way back in 2000 or 2001 on the DCMB’s.


I remember those conversations as well, Cobie. I also remember you basically agreeing with me at the time.

I've reflected on this more and more, and I think it comes down to 2 things:

1) The breaking up of the classic core line-up that had been more or less intact (albeit with the welcome additions of Kitty and Rogue along the way) for well over 100 issues. To me, the chemistry never recovered from so many of those characters being moved to other books. In my mind it was the perfect X-Men line-up, and the only time the chemistry ever felt close again to me was when Joss Whedon wrote Astonishing.

2) The dilution of the overall product with spin-offs that have only gotten more and more bloated ever since. New Mutants was okay because it was basically all new characters. X-Factor and Excalibur pushed it way further. No longer could I read about all of my favorite mutants in one book! I had been so spoiled for so long, and those spin-offs were just the beginning. And we know how incredibly bloated it is these days.

I lasted a long time with what had been my favorite comic, buying it out of sheer stubbornness and huge loyalty. I think I finally laid my X-fandom to rest somewhere around X-Men #300. I know I bought that foil-covered monstrosity, but I don't know if I bought 301. I know in adjectiveless, it was a few issues after Jean and Scott got married that I dropped it.

I probably WILL re-read beyond #200, someday, when I finally do that massive re-read. But I'll let you know it, Cobie, if I disagree with your assessment! tease


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Re: Re-Reads
Cobalt Kid #781245 07/25/13 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Cobalt Kid
Lardy, you’re reviewing of Ennis and Dillon’s Hellblazer has suddenly moved these issues to the front of the pile for me to read!! They sound awesome! And as a diehard Ennis fan, I must read them. Are they collected in easily accessible trades, do you know? My Hellblazer reading is very spotty at best, and I’ve only ever read Azzerello’s run.


It's collected in trades under the following titles:

Dangerous Habits
Bloodlines
Fear and Loathing
Tainted Love
Damnation's Flame
Rake at the Gates of Hell


From Fear and Loathing-on, every issue is collected. Bloodlines collects several individual and multi-part issues between the first and third trades, but not every Ennis issue is in trade form. As a result, I have NOT read every single Ennis Hellblazer story. I have all the individual issues that are represented in those last four trades but relied on the first two for the earlier issues.

Also, I think Bloodlines is out of print. I managed to find it on eBay a few years ago for a reasonable price, though it took some looking. I think, though, that if you get 'Habits' and then 'Fear and Loathing'-on, you'll be in good shape.


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Re: Re-Reads
Lard Lad #781249 07/25/13 10:10 PM
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^ awesome analysis on COIE, Cobie! Almost sounds like you were there when the plotting was being done wink

Re: Re-Reads
Cobalt Kid #781255 07/25/13 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Cobalt Kid
And please share the other pieces of your Bronze Age revisit! I'm definitely curious as to what you're reading and how you're finding it. The run-up to Crisis always felt like one of the very best eras in superhero comics ever, perhaps the only other time that has reached Golden Age or Silver Age heights.


At this point, it's really a Bronze Age Batman visit. I was going to read all of the BA Superman and Batman books, leading up to the books I grew up on. I found that Batman was instantly the character I remembered, but the post-Weisinger Superman line was disjointed, directionless, and not much like what I remember from the late 70s. I decided to drop it and just read Batman, and add Superman back in down the line. The Superman in the Bronze Age podcast convinced me to start with Man or Superman? The 4-part epic that ran through Superman 296-299. I haven't reached that point yet.

Then, I decided that as I get closer to my childhood, I was going to start adding in some other favorites, mainly team books because those were my favs. JLA when Gerry Conway took over, LSH when Levitz began his first run. JSA with it's All-Star revival. Firestorm. Outsiders, the Roy Thomas Earth 2 titles, probably more will continue to creep in. The Omega Men series is one thing I've never read before I'm going to cycle in.

So far, I can't say much except that I find the BA Batman titles really excellent. I'm currently to the point that they start reintroducing the recurrent villains they'd been avoiding, I can't say I'm enjoying those as much, but I know eventually they'll reintegrate the villains into this take on Batman successfully.

This is a prequel project to my recently complete reread of late 80s/early 90s DC. Despite my strong love of my BA childhood, I feel that the immediately post-Crisis era was a high water mark, with all sorts of insane experiments, genre-bending, and indie influence flooded the line. Then Vertigo took most of the weirdness with it, and Image and Death-and-Return 90s imitations squashed the rest.

Alongside that older project, I read the entire Silver Age Marvel superhero line. I was going to continue into the BA, but decided I needed a break from that.

Re: Re-Reads
Brain-Fall-Out Boy #781256 07/25/13 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Doty
Firestorm. Outsiders, the Roy Thomas Earth 2 titles, probably more will continue to creep in. The Omega Men series is one thing I've never read before I'm going to cycle in.


The Outsiders had some fun stuff going on. I'm a big fan of Alan Davis, and some of Mike Barr's 'throwaway' teams, like the Masters of Disaster and Force of July and the New Olympians, were just fascinating to younger me!

The story 'Sympathy for the Fuhrer' was pretty daring, for the day.




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Re: Re-Reads
Set #781257 07/26/13 12:02 AM
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How did I not mention The New Teen Titans? I can remember the day I saw issue 1 on the rack as clear as day, over 30 years later. Up to that point, I just bought the comics that looked good to me randomly. I probably read more comics than most, but was still just a regular comic-reading kid. The moment I saw that comic on the rack, I was a COLLECTOR who had to get each issue. Within six months, I probably had close to a dozen books I bought religiously.

I know that run is a favorite of pretty much everyone who was reading back then, but for me it literally changed forever the way I interacted with the hobby.

Re: Re-Reads
Lard Lad #781283 07/26/13 10:18 AM
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The Wolfman/Perez Titans was probably also the first title I seriously tried to collect (since that was the day of grabbing stuff off of spinner racks at the supermarket, and you pretty much got whatever was there, at least in Armpit-of-Nowhere-Oklahoma).

I'd grab random stuff, generally team books or Marvel Team-Ups, but yeah, the Titans pretty much hit the ground running right when I was at the age to take comics seriously (and, yanno, was old enough to have odd jobs and shiny quarters to spend on such luxuries).



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Re: Re-Reads
Cobalt Kid #781298 07/26/13 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Cobalt Kid
Originally Posted by Dave Doty

Originally Posted by Cobalt Kid
CoIE is actually spectacular.


Every time I've tried to reread CoIE as an adult, I have always come to the same assessment: everything you've said captures my feelings about the first 7 issues. Then I feel the book drags for a few issues, then pulls it back together for a decent finish, but even that still doesn't compare to issue 7 for emotional climax.

Now, I haven't read it in several years, so my opinion may change. I'm currently doing a reread of bronze age books that will climax (eventually) with CoIE. Do you think you can present an interpretation to give me a better appreciation for the back half, or do you think this is probably just an agree-to-disagree thing?


I’ve given this a little thought, and let’s see if I can express what I’m thinking. I agree that the first 7 issues really is what nails what makes this series so great, and sets a standard for not only the rest of the series, but all superhero comics of that era. Like we’re both saying, it comes down to pacing, story structure, dialogue, maximum characterization in minimal panel space, usage of an over-abundance of characters, ability to use continuity as a set-up and then allow the characters to react organically, etc.

From there, however, Wolfman and Perez are faced with an interesting issue: what to do to get the series to 12 issues long? Clearly the story isn’t over yet, there’s a lot of time to get to 12 issues, and this came out during an era (following Camelot 3000) that 12 issue series were kind of the benchmark. So what they do, and I think quite successfully, is a few things.

First, in #8, they advance the plot much more slowly, while focusing on the subplot of the Flash and giving him the send-off he deserves. I actually really love this issue and think the Flash’s end is incredibly dramatic. It’s not as heartfelt as the Supergirl death, but it captures something else: the totally science-fiction-ness and grandiose nature of Flash adventures, specifically in the form that Schwartz, Broome, Kanigher and Infantino first presented the character in. The way he dies, which is incredibly heroic, just fits the Flash. And in this issue, it also advances Wally West as another major person the reader can link to emotionally (while at the same time, backing away on a few others).

From there, Marv and George turn the focus on another “mini-story” / subplot to keep things moving along, which is namely the villains all rising up to conquer the multiple Earths. It keeps the series moving, wraps up a few subplots (Luthor / Braininac, Psimon, etc.) and also answers the question “what are all the villains doing?” since by now this was clearly a DC series that was using all of its various heroes, so therefore one must assume they would use all their villains. Marv and George therefore take all the tools they used in the first 7 issues of the series on the heroes, and try to apply it to the villains in 1-2 issues. I think they succeed, and the reason is that while the villains get good play, the heroes get equally as much. It allows for a lot of intermixing that had never been seen before, such as the Atom (in full on Sword of the Atom gear) freeing Billy Batson and the other kids so the Marvels can join the fray.

From there, the last three issues are especially unusual in their pacing: you get the big Spectre showdown versus the Anti-Monitor, resulting in loss (which can be really blamed on the villains failure to hold up their end); then #11 introducing the post-Crisis DCU for the first time as the heroes struggle to understand just like the readers are; and then #12, the big finale. Going back to #10, I can see what Marv is trying to accomplish: he clearly had in his mind how the heroes would finish off the A-M in #12 but needed to address why certain others aren’t involved: the magic-users (especially the Spectre), the other time heroes (key among them the Legion), the villains and a whole bunch more. While he is able to give the magic-users something to do here, this issue also kind of takes a lot of these characters off the board, so the story can begin shrinking again to a more manageable finale. If there is any single issue in CoIE that *almost* goes off the rails, its #10, though its still loaded with great moments, including how the massive group of heroes is able to even confront the A-M in the first place.

#11 hits next, and it brings with it a tone that no other issue of CoIE has. At first this can be jarring, but what Marv is doing now is introducing the concept of the combined Earths, combined history and a single Earth DCU. Superman and Batman provide great POV’s for the readers, since as being DC’s biggest icons, they essentially will hold our hands as we get used to this strange new reality. It’s interesting that the heroes remember the multiple Earths in this issue though later that wouldn’t be the case. It’s necessary here though for narrative reasons. This issue leaves the reader with an uneasy feeling because (A) it’s a whole new world and (B) there’s still so much unfinished business. And that second aspect rolls us right into #12.

As you say, you enjoyed the finale yourself. I personally love this issue and think its nothing short of brilliant. First there is the big attack on the A-M by a smaller group that allows Marv and George to really strut their stuff by showcasing strategy, powers, action, etc. Then there is the pure sense of panic on Earth, complete with deaths of heroes we know are being removed from the board (E2 Robin, E2 Green Arrow, etc.). There’s also the small roles others play like the aforementioned magic-users. And throughout it all, Marv makes sure to keep the story down to Earth by linking readers to specific characters like Kid Flash (and I admit I cry every time I read the final pages), Superman and Superman & Lois of Earth-2. Marv succeeds in a double-victory: first by the heroes combined and then next by Superman of Earth-2, who is really “the one who started it all” dying to save the DCU. There’s nothing more symbolic about the company pre-Crisis no longer being the same company post-Crisis.

I think these issues all present something individually appealing and are successful in that. But as you say, there is something that changes pacing-wise and tone-wise from the first 7 issues to these next five, and even more, it then changes each issue all the way to the end (with #12 being much like the first 7). I think they succeed every time, though it can get noticeable around the #9-10 range.

I am interested in your thoughts. What’s been missing from these crossovers ever since Crisis is the small scenes that now often get skipped over. When Wally West rejoining the Titans is in question, Cyborg asks Speedy what he decided and Speedy responds with “chalk one up for the good guys!”. We see Dr. Light meeting the heroes for the first time, some initial confusion, and Superman arriving to broker a quick peace. The interaction between Hawk & Dove and Red Star lasts just three panels…and in those three panels they get more characterization each than they had in the prior 15 years. Marv doesn’t just introduce Tomahawk for the sake of it—he takes the time to give you two panels that get to the heart of the character. It’s amazing!


I completely agree with everything in this post! I think the plotting and pacing in CoIE is criminally underrated. This is a completely over-used metaphor but I think "roller-coaster ride" is a really fitting description of this series. There are really easily identifiable highs and lows and fasts and slows and swerves and spins to the story.

And I totally agree about the way Marv and George are able to give us just enough about each and every character that appears in the series (even if it's just for a panel or two) so that we come away feeling like this is a story and a world populated by real, endangered characters; rather than the interchangeable and often unidentifiable background fodder that have populated so many of the later Crises.

Last edited by Blacula; 07/26/13 11:49 AM.
Re: Re-Reads
Lard Lad #781306 07/26/13 01:29 PM
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COIE: is that the one with the big worm and the singing? I get all these crises mixed up. I think it was full of in-jokes (for want of a better description) most of which went over my head. I'd probably never get it without annotations. Not sure it's worth the trouble unless it actually has some pertinence to what I'm reading in my books today?

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