Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Favorite What-If Or Elseworlds Stories?

Everyone's got at least one, yes?

And do you prefer the "old school" long-distance narration of The Watcher, or do you like your alternate realities better without?

(I think of What If? as "old school" only because I read Marvel before DC.)

Somebody has a page devoted to one of my favorites here.

I think What If? was before the DC Elseworlds

True. I think *Action* and *Adventure* Comics both used to have alternate-reality stories all the time...?

And I suppose Earth-2, et al. could count as really long, involved versions of What-If.

"Imaginary Stories" were common in Silver Age DC Comics.

I loved What If? when I was a kid (30 years ago). But the stuff they churned out about 10 years ago was just dreck.

My favorite will ALWAYS be What If Jean Grey had Lived?

A few years ago, Mike Carey wrote what I thought was a pretty cool What If take on the Fantastic Four: What if they'd been Russian? Lots of fun Easter Eggs in that story.

And although they were not promoted as Imaginary Stories, it was the alternate-future stories in the 1991 DC Annuals which tied into the Armageddon 2001 event which was my gateway into the DCU, so I'll always have a sentimental spot for those stories. My favorites were:

L.E.G.I.O.N. - A horrifying but deeply compelling tale in which Vril Dox conquers the universe.

Batman - An aging Batman is framed for the death of the Penguin, while a seemingly reformed Joker gets a lucrative talk-show host gig.

Action Comics - Superman for President. Why not? He's smart, strong, and a nice guy to boot.

Flash - Wally West must break his Witness Protection cover to rescue his son.

Adventures of Superman - A widowed Superman is seduced by Maxima. This story, written by the wonderful Louise Simonson, made me a hardcore Maxima fan.

Hawk & Dove - One word: Unity. This one is even more poignant than was originally intended, because it went on to be contradicted by the last-minute changes done to the second bookend volume of Armageddon 2001.

A while ago, I sent an e-mail to DC asking for an Armageddon 2001 Omnibus with the original ending restored. Hey, if they can collect a dog's breakfast like War of the Gods, I figure it has a shot...

I don't get to read many of them, but the Silver Age Olsen premises are fun.

In our Legion rereads, there were some really excellent Superman stories in Action. I see a clear influence from those to Alan Moore's work on the character. I've seen a few other gems like that over the years too, hidden away as back ups or in anthologies.

The adult Legion stories (if we're calling them imaginary) have to be up there.

I enjoyed Batman Holy Terror and Gotham by Gaslight. In both, the art really gave the book something extra. Likewise for The Golden Age.

I've not been enough of a Marvel fan to have read too many of the What Ifs? I've never been overly fond of a lot of the stories they're having an alternate version of. SO, there's limited interest for me. I'm sure I've read a few of the X-Men related ones though. Probably the Jean Grey one mentioned above by Andy.

I found the online stuff about Clarmont's first plans for the title to be better than the What Ifs?

^^I'd forgotten about The Golden Age. I guess the steady stream of dreck from Robinson in recent years caused me to forget about it. Seriously, though, I think the Golden Age is very good indeed. I'd say it's the best thing Robinson's ever written (I respect what he achieved with Starman, but have some problems with it.)

A quick peek of his wiki comicology tells me I've not read a lot of his work (I will have read his story in A1), but The Golden Age would be the best I've read.

It captured a combination of the mature hints provided by the All Star Squadron with the team's post (initial) retirement days of JLA crossovers and All-Star in the 1970s. By mature, I mean that the characters had lives that ran in parallel with their crime fighting and that those lives would become prominent once they gave up wearing costumes.

An example would be Green Lantern. His engineer/ broadcaster occupation combined with the sense of responsibility at owning the ring provided by Roy Thomas, into the character we see in the Golden Age.

Unfortunately, that and the Harris drawn issues of Starman would keep me buying his stuff long after I should have given up.

Well put, Thoth.

Although I still maintain that the outer space arc of Starman is underrated.

Golden Age was AWESOME
I totally forgot about it

It brought a whole new level to the 1940s DC

I bought a good number of Marvel's original "What If?" series back in the day, depending on whether or not the subject interested me. In my vague memories, though, it seemed to me that more than their fair share would end in tragedy. This was true even if the subject was about so-and-so having lived instead of dying or whatever. If someone lived, then, doggone it, someone (or lots of someones) would almost always end up dying instead.

Basically, "What If?" was generally depressing. At least, that's how the aging brain o'mine remembers it....

But if the larger topic here is of "imaginary" stories, we'd be remiss to not mention the classic Superman Red/Superman Blue story. To me, it will always be the most famous of this sub-genre and, arguably, one of the very best!

Lardy, I think you make a good point about the What If stories generally being depressing.

One exception, which I just read recently, was the one which introduced the Agents of Atlas. I read it because I borrowed the library's copy of the Agents of Atlas 2000s mini-series trade. I couldn't get into the mini-series, even with the Leonard Kirk art, but I loved the original story.

And, six degrees and all that, the original story was co-plotted and scripted by Donald F. Glut, who went on to write the prose novelization of The Empire Strikes Back and then contribute scripts to lots of TV cartoons during the 80s...including my beloved Transformers and GoBots.

Tsk! It beggars my mind that anyone could find this depressing.

LOL

I missed that issue.

Interestingly, Roger Stern planned for Cage to join the Avengers long before Cage actually did. He was also planning for Cage to date Avenger Monica Rambeau.

Stern getting fired = One of Marvel's biggest editorial blunders.

Earth 88255 Meanwhile over at DC...

Jenette: Right. We're way behind Marvel, and we could even be sold to them.
Dick: What we need is to streamline everything.
Jenette: Right. What company is daft enough to want to have fun with parallel earths?
Dick: Not us. >presses intercom< Get me Marv!

See, I couldn't recall the phrase through my customary morning fog. It always makes me smile, though. Because, well... it's all imaginary whether it's part of the mainline narrative or not.

All aside, I agree some of those stories are pretty high with the body counts, certainly the Death of Phoenix one, which ended with the entire universe getting et, I think. The demon kid who was Reed and Sue's second child wasting the whole FF was also sad stuff.

I liked the one where Dazzler became Galactus'es herald. The sad ending was somewhat mitigated by the knowledge that the stuff she did there was a lot cooler than anything going down in her actual book. Charming a whole planet of sentient plants and then persuading Galactus not to eat them? Good stuff.

Tony Stark's Iron Man in the age of King Arthur was a fun romp. And Elektra surviving (because Bullseye was killed before he could get to her) is genuinely haunting underneath its fairy-tale finish. The Watcher tells "our" Murdoch that their alternate selves can only lay their demons to rest for a while. The ultimate outcome is still in doubt. If only Miller could've brought that level of bittersweet subtlety to everything he wrote and drew.

Elseworlds

Kingdom Come: This was THE story that strengthened my resolve to learn more about the DCU. This was it for me. Because I had to learn just who Batwoman ONE was for their to be a Batwoman TWO.

The Kingdom: While this does not really love up to the standards of a sequel to Kingdom Come, it's still a story that I personally enjoy. My favorite tale is the Planet Krypton story, especially for all of the cameos from the likes of Kathy Kane and Luma Lynai.

Batman Book of the Dead: This one intrigued me because it was one of those books that could genuinely take place in the main DC Universe. I liked Barry Kitson's designs on all the so-called Egyptian deities.

Batman Dark Allegiances: This was a really fun Bat book that had a 1940s setting so instant plus for me. I loved that Chaykin used Joker, Two-Face and Penguin without calling them that, and his take on Bruce was enjoyable due to this being a Batman who is fully aware of how nuts he is and loving the hell out of it.

Batman Dark Knight Dynasty: My favorite thing about this one was Gary Frank's artwork on the Bruce Wayne section, in particular the character called Scarecrone. She's one of my favorite villains ever.

Batman Red Rain: The night I bought this was the nut of a thunder storm black out. I feel this is the strongest of the Vampire Batman books, mainly because I feel it had the most impact.

Batman Reign of Terror: One of the more optimistic Batman tales and one featuring a Bruce who doesn't succumb to death and despair. I love that is a story that had Bruce motivated to become Batman to help those unjustly punished instead of being motivated by the loss of his loved ones, and he got to keep the love of his life. Also, this introduced Rochelle Wayne, one of the best female Robins ever. I even have a sketch of her from Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez who did the art on this book.

Green Lantern Evil's Might: GL doesn't get many Elseworlds stories but I'm a big fan of Howard Chaykin's alternate timeline stories. This wasn't as dark as the other 19th Century Elseworlds and I loved the characterization of Carol Ferris and Kyle Rayner.

Catwoman Guardian of Gotham: Whatever else you can say about Jim Balent's anatomy, I do enjoy this story. I liked the Darcy Dent Two-Face and I LOVED Brooks, Selina's snarky answer to Alfred. I just wish she hadn't died at the end. Though I felt the Joker keeping his grin in place with safety pins was particularly disturbing and ingenious.

JLA Destiny: The usage of Charlton, Quality, and Fawcett characters are what I love about this, but in a way similar to Tangent Comics. My favorite character was the heroine called Widow.

Superboy's Legion: I hadn't thought about this story for a few years after some of my classmates in high school made fun of it, but I've since realized "Why the hell did I care?" This was cute and I liked the designs of Shadow Lass and Shrinking Violet.

Supergirl Wings: Because it's an interesting retelling on the Earth Angel storyline and because it's a story about faith that's not about religion. Plus Jamie Tolagson's artwork perfectly fit the story and I loved the cameos of WW and Swamp Thing.

Superman Last Son of Earth: The artwork in this book is amazing, and I love the characterization of Jor-El and Lara as they grow to love and care for Clark.

Superman's Metropolis: The Metropolis trilogy is hands down one of my favorite series of all time. I loved the art work and I loved the themes, even though I'm slightly disappointed at how Diana was handled in the Blue Amazon. I simply wish they were able to do the fourth book.

Superman Wonder Woman Whom Gods Destroy: This is legitimately one of the most imaginative and original Elseworlds they ever did, and I love the implications at the end that Clark, Lois, and Lana are in a loving polyamorous relationship, which effectively made Lois and Lana bisexuals.

Conjurors: This was an interesting story for me because of the lack of the JLA and focus on the likes of Jennifer Morgan, Klarion, Ted Kord, Brother Power, and other magic characters. I liked Jennifer in the role of a Zatanna esque performer and Brother Power as one of those "YOU GOTS TO BUH-LIEVE" performers.

Superboy's Legion, no contest. Best 'Elseworlds' ever, IMO.

I read tons of What If's back in the day, but it seemed like, as often as not, they felt kind of like a 'take that!' to the fans, in that the alternate versions of the stories so often turned out to be utterly horrible (Korvac using the Ultimate Nullifier to destroy the entire universe horrible, for example), as if the 'real story' had been the best of all possible stories, and anything else would have been awful, so don't you dare criticize what we actually wrote!

That one was pretty good, and they treated the vast majority of characters respectfully. I especially loved their interpretations of Shadow Lass (a nice nod to her expanded powers - solid shadows - under DNA, Light Lass (actual light powers!), Shrinking Violet (tough, like Preboot/TMK Vi), Bouncing Boy (who slowly gained confidence throughout the story), Karate Kid (a good mix between action-oriented Preboot Val and the calmer, more introspective Reboot and Threeboot versions), Ferro Land and Phantom Girl (wow that's almost everyone). Cleric Element Lad was a nice nod to the Reboot version too.

I thought it's a bit creepy that Brainy and Lyle are brothers considering their attraction to one another in the regular comics, but I'm glad their parents were nice and the people of Colu weren't monsters.

Yeah! I think that's exactly the feeling these stories gave me, even if subliminally! "Okay, you may be bummed about that outcome, but FUCK you! See? Wasn't the original way better now asshole?!?!" Exactly!

Obviously, there were a number of What If? stories that were fanciful or just plain out there, but you can bet if it was one of their bread-and-butter different takes on a tragic ending, it was gonna be a bloodbath every time!

I picture an embittered writer sitting at his desk around 3am and well past the half way point in his bottle of whisky.

"Goddam work for hire! I created half those costumed bozos! I'm keepin' them all in jobs! Goddam movies! Where are my royalties?! I'll show 'em! SHow 'em all"

Blearily he reached for the worn typewriter he was going to write his great novel on, before being side tracked by writing a Dazzler mini series...

Page 1. Panel 1: We see the Earth from orbit. It should be small and centred.
Page 1. Panel 2: We close up a little on Earth.
Caption - From the dawn of the universe they have sought out the heroes.
Page 1. Panel 3: We close up to see the US. The heroes who would surely stand in their way of a new aeon, birthed screaming from the old.
Page 1. Panel 4: We're in NYC.
Caption - Now they are here.
Page 2. Caption. It surprised the heroes that their attackers would look like chainsaw wielding combine harvesters with stompy boots, flamethrowers and a vendetta against publishers...

Only in What If?! : Creators Get Proper Royalties!