Posted by kinetix on the DCMBs.

From PopCultureShock :

THE LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #1
Written by Mark Waid
Art and cover by Barry Kitson

One of the most anticipated returns of the year begins as Mark Waid and Barry Kitson — the critically acclaimed team of the miniseries EMPIRE — rebuild The Legion of Super-Heroes in a way no one can afford to miss!

The early days of the 31st century are a Golden Age for the galaxy, as poverty, famine, war and disease have become relics of the past, not only on Earth but on most other known worlds. The Dawning Millennium is utopian: shining, optimistic, bright…and deadly dull. That is, until a bright, defiant, energized team of super-powered teenagers from different worlds is assembled! They form a team of passionate activists and fierce dreamers crusading to make a difference and leave their mark on a society that has forgotten how to fight for change!

Every issue of this monthly series will be a whopping 40 pages for just $2.95 US. Get ready for The Legion of Super-Heroes: fighting for justice and tolerance while learning from — and learning to tolerate — one another!
On sale Dec 29 • 40 pg, FC, $2.95 US Edited by Stephen Wacker

I realize it's too early to make any assumptions but from all I've heard plus this info it seems like the Legion will be reorganizing from a new starting point (i.e. a version 2.0 with new founders and new order of membership).

I suppose all previously introduced characters and their histories will remain untouched (i.e. Jarth, dead Jan, dead Gim, dead Candi, etc.)

It also sounds very OC but that might not be a bad thing. I sorely miss the vol. 3 and vol. 4 eras of deep emotional involvement into these fictional characters.

All in all, I just wish the damn thing would get here already. Seriously.

Ugh! This has dampened my excitement for the new series tremendously. Legion of Super Social Activists is NOT something I want to see. No war? Does that mean no Khunds, Dominion, or Dark Circle? Where's the fun in that?

This "reimagining" is starting to smell suspiciously like a complete reboot. Now I have been very optimistic about the series, but now that optimism is fading. I'll give it a chance, of course. It IS the Legion after all. But if it fails to hold any similarities to the Legions I've been reading the last two decades, I may have just found a perfect jumping off point.

I still have faith in Waid's love of the Legion.

I'm almost positive it will be a reboot.

I'd also guess the idea is that the "utopian" society is mostly a facade.

The cover looks nice as well.

I do like the cover. It's about time that the Legionnareis get their look updated. The reboot's been, what ten years now? I don't think the Cockrum / Grell uniforms lasted that long.

The new characters look intriguing. Nice to see some familiar faces - Brainy, Apparition, and Ultra Boy (if those are going to be their names) all seem to have made the cut. Is that Projectra? It's been so long, i'm not sure if that's really her or not! Is that Gear? He would be one of my last picks to survive the "reimagining".

I have some faith in Waid, too. That's about the biggest reason for sticking around. I'm sure that the first year or so will be very interesting with new and old characters, fleshed-out villains (finally), and character-driven plots. But will the result be the Legion? Obviously we'll have to wait and see. So far, the basic premise seems quite different from what I've grown to love about the Legion.

I don't know what Waid's politics are, but I hope he doesn't use the Legion as a springboard for his social views, as might be the temptation. I dunno, I'm starting to get really worried now. I hope it's over nothing.

Boy, I'm glad I stayed up late. The utopian setting and activist theme don't really bother me. I'm betting there'll be bizarre villains, aliens and monsters galore, just like always. Reboot? It sure looks that way to me, too.

I've seen more compelling covers, but this one's okay. Brainy obviously plays a more central role than ever and appears to have had another attitude adjustment. My guesses on the characters:

TOP ROW (left to right):
1. Imra
2. Garth
3. Nura
4. Unknown black male; Tyroc??
5. Lu, Tinya or XS?? (not sure; looks somewhat Asian)

MAIN IMAGE (left to right)
6. Rokk
7. Jan??!!
8. Jazmin (small face next to Rokk; note gold earring)
9. Tasmia??
10. Brainy (center)
11. Jo
12. Gear??
13. Chuck??


I'll weep with boundless joy if the blond guy with the cape is really Element Lad/Alchemist.


Here's a direct link to the cover image:
http://www.popcultureshock.com/view.php?type=features&id=85&p=LegionSuperHeroes1.jpg

I'm looking forward to it, but it sounds like a total reboot to me also.

And does the blonde caucasian guy look like Jan to the rest of you?

I think it is Jan, TC!

Yeah, from what I've read/seen I *WANT* it to be a reboot now. This just seems like a sudden shift from where we were before and it'd probably be easier for me to take it all in if I wasn't expecting/hoping for so much follow up from THE LEGION.

The solicit hypes an activist-type feel, but as always it's likely the Legion knows something the population doesn't (Ra's as McCauley, anyone?) and is trying to do something about it. No offense, but with such a sudden shift it's hard for me to swallow.

I'm a little freaked by the costumes. Not too many people are initially identifiable save for Brainy, Jo, and Nura (if it's even her) and I don't really like that. Then again, I came in on and am thus a fan of the unified vertical stripe that it's understandable I'd be hesitant on anything new. Though the costumes may not wow me, I *LOVE* Kitson's art on the cover.

I can't help but feel some of these people have to be new. I guess the guy to the right of Querl could be a new shape for Cham, but seeing the blonde youth on the left (all Legion blonde guys are either dead, powerless, or green) makes me think the Legion has added some new members...or perhaps expanded and admitted quite an assortment of heroes JLU style.

I will be buying this, without a doubt. I'll just need to take some time to adjust. I definitely trust Waid and Kitson with their previous endeavors and know their hearts have to be in the right place for this.

Are we sure that this is the cover? It doesn't look like enough room has been left for a logo.

Trom the one you list as "Garth" looks like he might be Dirk to me - notice the flames behind him.

Also the "Gear" looks like an antennae-less Reep. I guess it could just as easily be IZOR.

I squealed when I saw Nura (she looks smarter under Kitson's hand than Jurgens')!

And Brainy looks GREAT! The ring fx looks very Steranko to me.

Here's my guesses -

TOP ROW
1. Imra
2. Could be Dirk, but its probably Garth
3. I'm pretty sure that's Tinya. I just don't see that as Dreamer (no star mole)
4. & 5. look like new (or at least unintroduced reboot) characters

BOTTOM ROW
1. Rokk (or some other Braalian)
2. could be Jan, but I'm leaning toward a new character, possibly a mystic
3. Jasmin (good eye, Tromium!)
4. Something else else about her just screams Projectra. Must be the hair. Man, I hope that Sneckie nonsense is done and gone for good

5. Brainy? Not so fast. Maybe it's because Barry Kitson is doing the art, but this Coluan looks suspiciously like another Coluan who started a galaxy-wide super group. He's probably our Querl, but it now seems as though he has a bit of his great-grandpa Vril in him.
6. Jo, looking a bit more clean cut thatn usual. A few tweaks to his costume, but it's definitely our Jo.
7. First instinct was Gear, but now I'm leaning toward totally new character. Looks almost like a Durlan.
8. Chuck? Tenzil? Val? Who knows?

Note that the bulky belts seem to be gone for good now. We also look to be starting off with flight rings! I always hated either version of the Legion during the time before the rings were introduced. Those rings are cool!

It looks to me that Jo, Tinya, Brainy, and someone that kinda looks like Cos are definites. Even the Imra pic looks like ti could be someone else.

I'll say this though: I'm now definitely hyped for the Legion/Titan one-shot with the preview for this book.

I think I'll also have a bit more appreciation for the current team too now in this tale, and will enjoy seeing them together one last time before several or all of them change indefinitely.

If that's Projectra, I'll be as happy as TC!

Oh wow, I never thought of that. We definitely have two platinum/white-haired beauties. I hope it's Jeckie!

Could the blonde guy be Nemesis Kid, perhaps? He did have a background with science and alchemy...I can see a look like that working with the character's homeworld. Hart's presence would definitely echo in the light 'antagonistic' feel the Legion may have in their new role.

Looking at the top row specifically...that definitely seems like Dirk in the second panel. The fire background, the hair-style, and the general look just fits. The third I think is Nura...either her star tattoo was forgotten or she's ditched it. After all, it's generally not a natural Naltorian mark and with 31st century tech I'm sure such things can be rid of. Perhaps she gave it up as a final mark of her maturation from ditzy girlfriend? I suppose the fourth has to be Tyroc. I can't see Gear growing hair and this guy has an open white collar, like his preboot predecessor. The last one...XS, or Amp Girl perhaps as a tie to the DnA run?

I guess the logo could fit between Brainy's head and the five pictures at the top, though it might look a little different.

The Asian and black characters have me intrigued. How far will they go with this reimagining? Is Lu the Asian or Garth the black character? Maybe they're completely new characters who will carry on the names of familiar Legionnaires.

I guess I'm still optimistic, but quite guarded.

Nemesis Kid!!! That's a great idea, Future, one that I never would have thought of. With no famine or war in the galaxy, crime must be at an all time low, and characters who would normally be criminals might now join the Legion!

One thing Waid does a great job at is fleshing out personalities and motives for the villains. Maybe he's setting up a traitor in the midst right from the get go!

Further cover thoughts:

Are those...cables I see, growing out from behind Brainy? Has he undergone some kind of computer upgrade? He seems a bit more leering than usual and his face implants are either gone or have been redesigned. If this is the same Brainy we have now, he's obiously going to go through some type of physical change in the gap between.

I think that has to be Jeckie, or someone based off of her. The neck collar, the regal smirk, the decorative hood/attachment behind her...

The blonde seems to be sporting a small 'love-patch' or 'goatee'. Another sign that it could be the somewhat rebellious Nemesis Kid, or is this Live Wire or another new character letting their style out? It technically could even be Jan.

I'm really starting to believe that's a new look for Cham. Those bulbous plain eyes and the bald head/pointy-eared/alien motif going on doesn't really make the character look too interesting or alive, so unless he's an established Legionnaire I don't see myself being interested in him or warming up to him with such a dead look/design. Perhaps it's Cham after some kind of trauma or just the 're-imagined' Durlan race sans-antennae, which some may call an outdated Silver-Age look.

Excuse me, but if that isn't Jan then there's just no point in him being on the cover. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't someone else in Jan's body.

I say Saturn Girl, Garth or Dirk, Dream Girl, Kid Quantum, & Triplicate Girl

Then: Cosmic Boy, Element Lad, Kid Quatum II, Shikari, Brainy, Ultra Boy, Chameleon, & Timberwolf.

I've already had enough of Brainy.

The 40 pages means 30 story plus 10 ads, right?

I'm just glad they kept Jo's basic look.

but ... uh oh... definitely no Wildfire ....yet(??)

Yeah, no alien-looking members save for Brainy and Pseudo-Reep. I'm kind of puzzled why the Reimagined Shikari, Umbra, Gates, Sensor, Wildfire, all-metal Ferro, or other visually exotic members didn't make it into the human-dominant cover.

That is, assuming, all those characters are still around.

Um...I don't know what to think about any of it.

I think I'd have preferred a softer change of status quo though. Otherwise, I'm waiting.

Top Row: Imra, Dirk, Nura, Condo, Tasmia

Bottom: Rokk, Hunt, Tinya, Jeckie, Querl, Jo, Reep, Gim

*hic*

The symbols on the blonde guy's outfit appear to be alchemical symbols for silver, gold and possibly lead. It ain't "Jarth", that's for sure. No way Garth would be caught dead (pun intended) wearing those duds. It's gotta be Jan.

Re. Garth vs. Dirk, Dirk's hair was usually wavy and brushed back. This hairstyle is more typical of Garth. The yellow/gold duds are a surprise, but why not? His lightning was often depicted as golden and it was also the color of his insignia. If it were Dirk, I'd expect to see some fiery red. I'm sticking with Garth 'til Barry says otherwise.

I missed the blue cables that appear to come out of the back of Brainy's head. Maybe it's part of his force field gadgetry, or he merged with his son COMPUTO!

Why would Barry depict Cham this way if the character's silhouette clearly had antennae in the teaser image?

Waid was right. It's hard to recognize them.

I'm with Libation Lad on this one guys. I suspect most of you wouldn't be all that familiar with Condo but the dark haired male in the box along the top looks very much like Condo's profile to me. He was often drawn with darker complexion and he also had close cropped dark hair.

The blong guy could easily be Jan. The outfit reminds me of an updated, stylized version of what he wore during the TMK run. He wore a "hermit" or "mystic" cape once he returned to Trom. This looks mystical to me.

Also, while I hope that light haired female in front is Jeckie, it doesn't look like her to me. I'm reminded that Gail said her story arc paved the way for some elements of the reboot. When I first saw her, I felt that the girl in datk blue with the cape was Nightwind!

So my guess would be:

TOP ROW (left to right):
1. Imra
2. Garth
3. Nura
4. Condo
5. Violet (or maybe Tinya)

MAIN IMAGE (left to right)
6. Rokk
7. Jan
8. Tasmia
9. Berta (Nightwind)
10. Brainy (center)
11. Jo
12. Cham (although my initial reaction was Gear)
13. Chuck or Val


As for Brainey: I don't think those are cables runing into the computer, I think it's circuitry built into his skin (replacing the current implants?)

Ditto!

Actually I suspect it'll be 25/15!

Awkward Pause Boy, it's 30 pages of story, as confirmed previously by both Waid and Kitson. Vee's just teasing you.

EUGH.

The chances of me buying this just shrank from "small" to "infinitesimal."

Oh, and for reference, my gut instinct on the "who"s goes:

Insets: Imra, Dirk, Nura, [New], Triad

Main: Rokk, [New (magic user?)], Jaz (head just visible), [New], Querl, Jo, Reep, Chuck.

With the logo at the BOTTOM of the cover.

...

Well, the Baltimore Con is today, so some news site will have to have some info somewhere on the Legion Panel Waid will be doing. I want to hear what he says.

Also, that's CHam in the front, not Gear, and I thought it was Condo with the 'Alchemist' outfit.

So long as the guy up top isn't Jacques, I won't explode.

-Elsewhere

C'mon, out already you cowards. You owe the readers.

Well, upon further reflection I both hate it (reset button pushed) and love it (possible return of Jan Arrah).

Why are all of Brainy's fingers the same length? The more closely I look at him, the wierder he appears. Too much sickly green in the outfit for my taste, but I suppose the whole point it to make him less cuddly.

Jeez, Jo looks unpleasantly beefy. Hope he doesn't go all Neanderthal on us.

I'm inclined to agree the handsome black guy on top might be Condo. If so, could he be the new Legion's first fatality?

Waid's panel is at 4:00 p.m. Hope we get some news by tomorrow morning.

December 29th? Man, that's just cruel!

Well, I rather hope the guy up top is TYROC.

Not that I dislike Condo, I *love* Condo, but... well, Tyroc deserves to be brought back too.

CALLING THE ROLL OF THE LSH#1 COVER...

First of all, DEC. 29 makes it THREE Legionless months! AAAAAARRRRGGGHHH!!!

With that out of my system...

TOP ROW, left to right...

1). While this was loading, I couldn't decided if the image was that of a male or a female, but I think it probably IS Imra.

[I'll interject here, that any of these images *could* be that of a brand new character, even those who look readily identifiable]

2). The energy background *could* be fire... or lightning... or even WILDFIRE's energy! Maybe Drake'll have a 'human' form here. My first instinct was that it's DIRK MORGNA, SUN BOY/INFERNO. Could be wishful thinking.

3). DREAMER. Though it *could* be Andromeda (no star-mole... most likely a slip-up... or perhaps it'll be visible on the 'real' cover).

4). The collar suggests TYROC to me. Though it could be Condo... or even Lyle under moody lighting. Or undercover. Or with a race-change. Or maybe Jacques.

5). I first thought this was LIALLA with her 'face-jewelry' removed, to be honest. It's more likely TRIAD.

BOTTOM ROW, left to right...

6). Looks like COSMIC BOY... though it *could* be POL (remember Waid's comments about the founders... which would bring the ID of #1 and possibly #2 into question).

7). IS it? COULD it be? JAN!!!??? Gods, I hope so... though the magician-looking outfit'll have to grow on me. If it's just a magic-worker wearing element symbols, I'll be *so* disappointed. I remember Waid's comments about some of the Legionnaires being from different homeworlds, or something. I hope this isn't a Jan Arrah from anywhere else but Trom.

The NEMESIS KID idea *is* intriguing, given his preboot (pre-preboot?) background in alchemy. Comes close to the 'Guess who's back-- WRONG!' bait-and-switch that involved Wildfire in the 5YL era, if so.

8). Probably Tinya, APPARITION, based on what looks like a white pigtail clip. Return of the flares and pigtails? *Could* be any dark-haired Legion gal, though. Vi... Night Girl (standing near possible Rokk)... Nightwind... Umbra... KID QUANTUM (though the face looks too pale, the characters *are* under odd lighting).

9). My first thought upon seeing this image was GLORITH... but I can see the PROJECRTA guesses, too. The dark blue bodice, cape, platinum hair and the regal bearing all would fit Jeckie. She looks very tall, though. This could also be ANDROMEDA... and she *is* standing directly behind Brainy.

10). BRAINIAC 5. Don't like the olive-green on him. Aqua Lad Kid's observation about Vril Dox of L.E.G.I.O.N. fame is an intriguing one. That might be one layer of change too much... Wonder what the context of Brainy slamming his hand down on the table/bar/whatever is?

11). ULTRA BOY... seems the most straightforward of choices. Probably means it's actually Dev-em or something.

12). I hope that's NOT Cham, unless he's in transformation mode for some reason. Blue triangle above pinkish circle (Saturn?) above yellow square... hmmm... doesn't ring any bells with me. Geometry Kid? GEAR? A new form for KINETIX? (What would a new LSH #1 be without one?)

13). I'd guess KARATE KID, because of the gloved hand. *Could* be Chuck, though. Has he been shown to wear gloves with bare fingers?

Thirteen... eep! Not a very auspicious number of characters to feature on a new #1 cover! Wonder if this means the LUCK LORDS are involved?

I'm guessing that the characters who team-up with the Titans in the special have to leave the 31st century and enter the timestream. They return to the idyllic *sounding* UP (assuming it's still called that) and smell something fishy. So they start a 'movement'.

I'm encouraged by the possible usage of a new Jan (and scared that I'm going to be let down, too), Dirk Morgna, Tyroc/Chem, Jeckie. I hope the most alien-looking one is a new character.

DEC. 29! AAAAARRRRGGGHHH!!!

Todd

I just found this thread and I was wondering, is the cover link not working for anyone else?

It's gone now. No surprise, as the December solicits were not due to be published online until late tomorrow afternoon. The website owners might have been forced to take them down.

Surely, some kind soul will upload the image.

Poor Gary... this is going to mean a whole batch of new gremlins come December/January...

here i am!

was anyone else a little disappointed that the cover for the 1st issue wasn't the "sunburst" cover we saw earlier?
That one was classy and cool!

bless you Mr Kayak!

My guesses, for what it's worth:

Top row:

Imra
Garth (the expression and poise seem more characteristic of him than Dirk)
Tinya (I interpreted it as either an lighting effect or a function of her being phased that her hair appears much lighter than normal)
Jacques (though perhaps more likely someone completely new)
Vi (it just seems like a hairstyle she would wear, though Amp Girl or someone migh be a possibility as well)

Bottom Row:

Rokk
Jan (though I'm *very* intrigued by the Hart Druiter suggestion)
Unsure
Nura (Jeckie is definitely a possibility as well)
Brainy
Jo (has anyone suggested that it might be Cub?)
New Character (possibly a re-imagined Carggite, though?)
Unsure (Mon-el, perhaps?)

Yeah, but it resembled the "Legion #1" cover a bit too much, and had *no* readily identifiable characters. I'm guessing that'll be used for advertisements or for the promo.

That looks more like scarring than cables on B5's face, now I see what everyone's talking about.

On the insets again, go with the colour code (with the preface that, yep, they could all be brand-new)/

Yellow - Pink's more common for Imra, but her saturn-symbol's yellow, and she's blonde, so it could still fit. [And it does look female. With a ponytail to boot...]

Orange - Not a colour readily associated with, say, Garth. And that looks like a fire effect in the background, which is why I went for Dirk.

Silver-White - Any character other than Nura associated with this?

Dark-Brown - Looks like a skin-colour match more than anything else. There's been a few black characters, but this doesn't bear ready resemblence to any of them.

Lilac-Purple - Anyone other than Triad? And, after all, orange & white are already taken.

As I suggested: Violet.

Wow! This is amazing, and I'll have more thoughts on the cover team when I get back from opera rl practice, but here's a quick thought...

That girl on the far right in the top inset looks an awful lot like XS to me.

Cheers! Be back soon!

I'm thinking that the Lilac-purple one is Vi too.

And though the orange colour and flame background suggests Dirk, his facial features make me think of Garth.

And I'm betting that the black one is Jaques, though if it is I hope that dosen't mean no Lyle.

The other two surely must be Imra and Nura IMO.

I suppose it could be Vi, although my instinct still says "Triad".

That said, why are they insetted? Especially with comparitively bright colours, against the dull main pic.

I know. And I had gotten all caught up with post-booters too.

And thanks Mr. Kayak!

The "dullness" of the image makes me still question whether or not this is the cover. It's a very static shot, with most of the characters just standing around. It looks more like a splash page, or some other interior page to me.

I can buy Imra as being the character in the first image, and Dirk as being the second. I don't think we're meant to know who # 3 is (or some of the other characters in the main shot). The girl in #4 could also be completely knew, though my money would be on Triad.

No, I'm convinced this is the cover. The way they're focused at the camera - with the line-flare on the ring to boot - and the arty-farty colouring on the line of insets suggests to me that it is the cover.

Why do you all insist that's a fire background? I see lightning.

The colouring mostly. It can't even just be said they're matching hair-colours, since there's never been a purple-haired LSHer IIRC.

And how does it match with this?

One thing that I find a little creepy about the solicitation is that, if you read the characters motivation in a certain way, it sounds eerily like the motivation of the anarchists from Gail's run. Trying to "disrupt" the utopian society so that actual social progress can be made or something like that...

Maybe that group will re-appear as competitors to the Legion ideology, trying to accomplish something similar but through different methods?

For what they're worth I reckon it's Imra, Garth, Nura, Tyroc (complete with funky disco era collars...) and Lu at the top and Rokk, Jan, Tasmia, Berta, Brainy, Jo, Gear and Val underneath....

If this is the cover then I guess the logo fits at the bottom....

I quite like the dazzling burst effect off brainy's ring (so to speak ) and the serious look on their faces too....

I was thinking, wouldn't it be interesting if the guy we all think is Tyroc is really Rokk? I mean, would that be a re-imagining or what!

Which would be a very bad idea. Covers with logos that aren't at the top tend to get lost on shelves, when other comics are stacked in front of them. The same thing happened to NOBLE CAUSES when the original logo ran down the left-hand side.

I think it's more likely that the logo fits between Brainy's head and the top row pictures, or else there's additional space above them for the logo. Or else... maybe "The Legion" is written in the space above Brainy and then "of Super-Heroes" is at the bottom... how would that work?

Dividing the logo and placing it both at the top and bottom of the cover is a novel idea, Eryk.

That ring effect is kinda making me sleepy...

Many thoughts that echo the ones before mine...

First my guesses at the characters.

Top row: Saturn Girl, DIRK, Dreamer, Tyroc, Violet.

I know Garth has lots of fans here and I think all the guesses for him is wishful thinking. The 2nd square is orange with a fire background? Dirk all the way. Tyroc? I hope so. He looks cool whoever he is. I think they are going to make Vi asian b/c it can easily be explained that she always was and really doesn't matter if she is. I like it. The last two characters may be all new though. Still think Garth will be in the series but that ain't him on the cover.

Bottom row? Cosmic Boy, Apparition, Element Lad(!), the female I have no idea, Brainy, Ultra Boy(!), Cham?, and Karate Kid?

Is that an eye on the guy's head next to Jo? Maybe a friend of Despero? Looks silly.

I hope Karate Kid is in it cause I enjoyed him postboot especially the latest story arc. In preboot he died right when i started reading.

I've brought up the Querl/Vril possible comparison for this series. Every other Brainiac was a bit...not nice...I can see B5 be a bit pushy like Vril. I think Brainy may be the most important Legion figure anyways. With Waid/Kitson former work on L.E.G.I.O.N. plus they even mentioned the old series when talking about this one early on...I just see a comparison between the Dox's. I like it.

Honestly don't care for the bored superhumans in the 31st century approach. So this is a glorified club? Ick. Still hoping character work stands out and I don't care if it's a club or not.

Hope the changes aren't too drastic.

Jorge

First, glad to see you back Jorge. Hope you got through the storm okay.

Now, I'll ask again. Why do you INSIST that's fire? I don't see fire I see electricity. Its just as much wishful thinking for Dirk fans (of which I'm one) to keep insisting that its fire and it means Dirk is back.

It IS Garth, pure and simple. And you can't prove otherwise until December (or we find out in Dallas).

I have electricity again Deathstroke after 3 days but no thanks to Garth.

I looked at the picture again more objectively and it can be electricity. Knowing Waid it is Garth. I've been wrong plenty of times so I will admit defeat now and for some small chance I am right I shall gloat in late December. lol.

Hurricane Ivan is scaring me.

Thanks Deathstroke Lad just figured out who you really are.

Jorge

Wow, this IS an unusual first issue cover. Strange composition. Why are some in panels above? For the ALL NEW ALL DIFFERENT LSH they look pretty WASH (white anglo saxon humanoid). This is 13 of the 18 members and Brainy and Cham are the only aliens. How disappointing. ROLL CALL top: 1-Saturn Girl, 2-Sun Boy (c'mon those are flames), 3-Dream Girl, 4-Invisible Kid (it does look like Jacques, maybe Jacques Norg. or Lyle Foccart), 5-Hmmm...i'd guess Shrinking Violet but the convention panel said that none of the LSH had seen her cuz' she shyly stays at subatomic level. maybe that's why the light is violet?
ROLL CALL bottom: 1-Cosmic Boy in PINK again! 2-Alchemy Lad? i hope it's not Jan cuz' i hate this costume. 3-Phantom Girl in pigtails! 4-could be Projectra-Sensor Girl, or yet another beautiful white woman with silver hair... Glorith Girl maybe. 5-Brainiac 5 doing his best Vril impersonation, 6-Ultra Boy in his old weight lifting belt! Yay! 7-Chameleon Boy, look at the primary shapes as his logo. i miss the antenna. 8-Cos again? he had gloves like that. could be Karate Kid but if he's not asian this time out i'll be pissed.

One thing about Brainiac 5 in this picture.

I have been buying back issues of L.E.G.I.O.N. to see what I thought of Barry's art on a regular series and, to me at least, our Brainy is starting to look a lot like his ancestor, the first DOX, founder of L.E.G.I.O.N.

I think its the buzz cut and more adult and agressive image on Brainy. I hope he does not get a Virl Dox personality to go with the look.

This looks brilliant.
The standard idea of "cape & tights" super-heroes is outdated and it is fun when people shake it up a bit.

The idea of a super-hero group in a time when there is no need for super-heroes is a great idea.
Comics like Powers, Demo, Get Backers, Common Grounds and so on are all must-reads these days, and this sounds like it could be an innovative change not only for Legion, but for super-hero comics. And it all uses what existed anyway, which makes it genius. If we look at the different eras of the Legion, some of the best work has been when character is involved. It was the redeeming feature of the Giffenbaum 'verse, made Legionnaires the interesting title in a dull era of Legion and enhanced the galaxy-spanning epic ideas that DnA had.
As long as Waid does this right, the series is going to be very, very cool.

Ambient-Noise Boy

Man - that is one ugly and boring cover!

As excited as I am about this new series one of my biggest worries is that Kitson will be the weak link. Sure, he can draw well when working on pre-established and designed characters (see JSA : Strange Adventures) but when called upon to design his own, everyone has an extemely boring same-y look about them (see Empire). I know we can't really see full shots of anyone though so I'm going to hold off my criticism on this topic until I've actually seen the issue.

I do wish the cover could have been a bit more dynamic though. It really does nothing for me. And the colours seem REALLY bad! That can't be our mechana can it? I always thought she did a wonderful job!

As for who they are -

Top row:

* Imra (though more than any of the others I think this one could surprise us)
* Garth (because of the straight hair otherwise I would definitely have thought Dirk)
* Nura (though in every respect except for the colour of the hair it looks like Tinya... but then one of Kitson's main problems is that all his women's faces tend to look the same)
* Tyroc (gotta be! look at the collar! one word - YES!!!)
* Salu (with the same funky eye make-up Tinya was using in Superboy's Legion)

Main picture :

* Rokk (could it be anyone else?)
* Hart (if it is Jan then its a radical departure from the one we've known for the last few years. though I don't mind either way I LOVE the idea of a traitor in the Legion and Hart being the tension-providing bad-boy)
* Jazmin (because of the earring)
* Jeckie (though it doesn't look much like her. the regal bearing and hair colour seem to be the only clues)
* Querl (obviously)
* Jo (obviously)
* no idea (if it is Reep that's a horible re-design, if its not Reep that's still a horrible design)
* Gim (just because we know he's coming back and he seems like the type who might wear fingerless gloves, though Val is a strong possibility)

I was hoping we might see Gear in the reboot, but yeah - it's prolly Cham to the right.
I thought the shapes had a Playstation feel that with the 'designed in 2004' attitude they're going for, and fit Gear's powers, but then I thought: "Shapes". Cham changes shapes - thus making the primary figures an abstract way of conveying his powers.
I'm not sold until I see Star Boy, Xs and Lyle though...
(Or could that be Jenni in the brown at the top? The collar looks like her current one a bit... Looks a bit like a boy though.
If they bring in Jacques instead of Lyle as Invisible Kid I'll be narky tho... )

Plus I think it's Dirk in the top row, surrounded by what I see as flames.

Hmmm...something said above makes me wonder if the white haired female next to Brainey could be Mysa!

Hi Guys
Well I'm glad most of you liked the cover - though the final version will look quite different to this as this was colored specifcally for the previews piece.
Layout and color will change for the actual book.
The characters are
s
p
o
i
l
e
r
.
.
.
.
.
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Saturn Girl, Sun Boy, Dream Girl, Star Boy, Shadow Lass, Cosmic Boy, Element Lad, Phantom Girl, Princess Projectra, Brainiac, Ultra-Boy, Chameleon (NOT an eye on his forehead) Karate Kid

Boy, it's scary waiting to read your comments on the artwork!

Star Boy is black?! Omigosh. Glad to hear that Sun Boy, Element Lad and Projectra are back in the fold, but I'm terrified to ask what you did with Garth.

I'm intrigued by the new Star Boy, but a little annoyed at Cham's apparent lack of antennae.

Hmm. We've been told there will be roughly 18 members, and we've seem to have some confirmation on 16 of them so far. So far they're all Adventure era members, which is disappointing to me. I've found something to enjoy in all the Legion series so far, but it seems a little bit unfair not to at least throw the post-boot fan a few bones. I hope the team expands pretty soon. We already had one relaunch by Adventure partisans (TMK) and I don't really need another one.

I guess I'm still pretty skeptical, but I'll see where it goes. Starting from a utopian setting and working backward certainly bucks the trend in Legion relauches at least.

Okay, then.

Confirmed line-up thus far:

Atom Girl (Violet)
Brainiac
Chameleon
Collosal Boy/Micro Lad
Cosmic Boy
Dream Girl
Element Lad
Karate Kid
Phantom Girl
Princess Projectra
Saturn Girl
Shadow Lass
Star Boy
Sun Boy
Ultra Boy

That leaves about three slots open. Guesses?

You could add Lightning Lad too. Per the Baltimore Panel thread the founders are still the founders. Of course we're joining the series "in progress" so there's no sure bet that he's still in the picture.

Add to the list Karate Kid and Ultra Boy. Waid also said we'd SEE Lightning Lad in Wizard #154 and verified yesterday the three founders would still be the founders. Hopefully he's not dead again.

Thanks for clarifying that, Barry.

A black Star Boy? That would be a novel idea, except for, well, Black Goliath/Giant-Man, Green Lantern, Captain Marvel, Invisible Kid, ad nauseum. Why not create a NEW black character, or highlight an existing one, like Gear?

So... assuming Lightning Lad is in, what other Adventure era characters are we missing?

Triplicate Girl
Invisible Kid
Bouncing Boy
Matter-Eater Lad
Ferro Lad
Chemical King

Note that those are one's who died or resigned from active duty once the Adventure era was over.

Does anybody have another link to the cover art? When I try to open the link EDE posted in the first page I get the following message:

Sorry, but this article isn't supposed to go live unil Monday. We apologize for the mis-start.

Of course, today is Monday, so the article should be up, but I still can't get it to work. The page from Pop Culture Shock which had the enlarged pic on it just has a red-X.

My pick for the other two slots (carrying on with the Adventure slant) are Invisible Kid and Triplicate Girl. Got to have IK for the Espionage Squad!

Loser, check pg. 3.

I'm sure Atom Girl is actually Nano Lass

I think our opening design sheet has 20 characters on it is that's any help... not sure if I should be divulging any more info yet or not...

I'd give my right arm to a space whale to see that opening design sheet.

How'd I miss that...

Thanks EDE!

We want to see!

Eek! Man, I always feel bad when I dis someone's artwork and then they read it! Just to clarify - I *really* like your artwork Barry, its just some of your character designs that have left me a little cold in the past. Who says things can't change though? And I have full faith that I'll love your work on the Legion in all other areas.

And great news to hear that the colours are just preliminary! That was probably my biggest gripe.

Now on to the revelations -

Top row :

* Imra - No surprises there (even though I said there would be one )
* Dirk - Well, most people got him. GREAT NEWS though! About time he came back!
* Nura - No surprises here either. Don't forget the beauty spot though Barry.
* Thom - The biggest shock! Don't know what to think of this. Part of me is very disappointed its not Tyroc. Another part is happy to see more minorities on the team, but I would have much preferred it if it had been done in a more fluid way. For example Salu could very easily have been changed to being Asian as it wouldn't have been a huge departure from her look anyway. Or if the change was made with a slightly lower profile character. For example what they did with Condo when he was introduced in the reboot a while ago. I think most of me is cool with this but I just really hope Thom doesn't turn into the new Sneckie!
* Tasmia - The colouring probably misled most of us here. Looking forward to seeing the final product.

Main picture :

* Rokk - Think we all got this one.
* Jan - Good to see him back alive and not the wimpy Jan of the reboot anymore. This could be the first time I've ever actually like Element Lad. Kinda disappointed its not Nemesis Kid though. Still, maybe he's still to come?
* Tinya - Can see it now.
* Jeckie - Fantastic! Death to Sneckie!
* Querl - Obviously.
* Jo - Obviously.
* Chameleon - Uh-oh. Not liking this one. Maybe he's just in a strange form. Bring back the antennae Barry.
* Val - Cool. Always liked Val. His rough and tough stance looks like we may be seeing a more interesting character than the reboot one too.

Now that I've written all that I've just had a thought. Who says that is Imra, Dirk, Nura, Thom, etc? It could be completely different people in the Saturn Girl, Sun Boy, Dream Girl, Star Boy, etc roles? That would be an interesting twist if so! Maybe that's not Thom or Reep or Nura after all.

Thanks for the info Barry! Now I'm looking forward to this new series more than ever!

I (obviously) haven't read the entire thread, so forgive me if this has been emphatically stated somewhere by Barry or someone in the know.

To me, it doesn't really look like Star Boy is supposed to be of African descent. He doesn't have obviously African-looking features. Maybe it's just the coloring that's making everyone think that? I mean, after all, Sun Boy's not really going to be orange-skinned, is he? To me it just looks like Thom will have a shorter haircut in the re-imagining.

Lightning/Light Lass is missing, too.

Got to ask... does Waid's Boy/Lad/Girl/Lass/Kid fetish seem out of place with the "As if the team was created today" crap he's spouting?

Does anyone actually believe that, if the team was created today, with no prior (real-world) history, any of them would have "Lad" or "Lass" codenames?

Yay! Element Lad!

Yay, Cape!

Feel free to add hats to any of the characters, Barry.

Wow! Thanks for the list. And I too would LOVE to see the design sheet! Maybe I can get the gang together and we can bribe you! Have you got a Paypal account?

I really do enjoy your artwork and I'm looking forward to seeing it in the new book. Just not so sure about the fate of the Legion that I've invested so much time, emotion, and money into enjoying.

Maybe we should start some more L.E.G.I.O.N. discussions around here. Let me go back and read my collection.

War is NOT fun, no matter in the real world or in comic books!! Struggle is one thing, war is another and glorifying it is just wrong!!

On the other hand I am really looking forward to this series more than ever now!! Sounds really great!!

Hi Guys - glad so many are looking forward to teh new series.

Hi Reboot - I know you won't be picking up the new book, but if you did you'll find we have what we think is good reason for choosing the code names as they are.

Hi Nightchangeling - Thanks about the artwork. I totally understand your feelings about possibly losing the LSH you've read for ages - I've been a Legion fan since I was in primary school. I hope you'll find we're just giving a fresh impetus to the ongoing story!

As soon as issue #1 is out I'll post the design sheet I promise! I may even have a copy with me for those attending Dallas to get a preview in November

Three words for anyone attending Dallas in November: Hidden Digital Camera!!!

CB, Barry already spilled the beans about who's who!

Thanks Barry It's nice to know you both have a love for the original appearance of Jeka! I'm thrilled that you brought back her human self (or did you? )

Yea, I'm with Eryk, where are my antennae?? I suddenly feel emasculated!! : (

Phantom Girl looks very different. Where the black hair.... Oh, I get it the cover's colors were purposely done this way to throw us off!! OK, so Star Boy is not black then!

Still would love to see the White Witch and Tyroc back!!

Thanks for the confirmation on who's who!!

I so look forward to this new adventure. The reason I started reading comix!! The Legion of Super Heroes!!

*A* reason maybe - but it's still starting from the premise they'll have Lad/Lass names and working back from that.

Hi Reboot
Actually you're wrong about that - we had the premise first for the series and the logic of the names came out of that.

Hi Chameleon Boy - just because he doesn't have antennae on the cover doesn't mean he can't have them other times

off a few days and i see this!!!! This is soooo stressful...where did we find out about gim, atom girl, coming back. Is atom girl Violet...shed better be ...anyone know when this 18-20 line up was annouced in addition to Barry's info for the cover??

Dammit, the PopCulture link now has an apology posted, something about they weren't supposed to go live with the solicits... in short, I can't access the cover image. Anybody have it saved?

Go back to page 3 I believe. Somewhere in this thread at any rate.

Oog. I swear that wasn't there when I went through this thread earlier...! Thanks, Matt.

This sure looks and sounds like a total reboot to me. Ugh! I don't know if I've got another one of those left in me.

Now this is exciting. Sun Boy, yes!!! I am having a very good feeling about this series.

I missed something though. When did we find out about the other members of the liogion not mentioned by Barry?

it's SOOOOOOO nice to have Barry around giving feedback and listening to our opinionated opinions! Don't let us scare you away BK.
i like the brown Star Boy. he'll look great next to the all-white Dream Girl. nobody complained about the skin color changes in Condo Arlik or even the post boot Timber Wolf. LOVE that Sun Boy, Projectra, and E-Lad are back!!!

BTW, I'm not sure why you all are assuming that Star Boy is black. It certainly doesn't appear that way to me. I think it's just the choice of colorwash used in that panel.

If you look at the others you'll see that Imra is all yellow, Dirk is all orange, Dream Girl is all white, & Violet is all...violet. So Star Boy is all sepia or brown. He certainlly seems to have causasian features as well.

Good point, Vee, thought he does look like he's sporting a short afro.

While I'm happy to see the return of old codenames and thrilled to see Projectra shedding her snake skin, I'm not sure if I'm totally on board with the premise. I mean, unless I'm missing something, it sounds like the 31st Century is perfect. What exactly are the Legion fighting to change? They sound more like troublemakers than heroes.

In any case, I'll be checking it out. I just hope we're not straying too far from the Legion ideals that have been around for 40 years.

Oh, and I'm probably gonna be in the minority, but I'm gonna miss Calvin Brainy

Well, Star Boy sported a crewcut from his introduction up until Giffen modified his appearance with the beard and longer haircut so I'm not sure what to think. Either way is fine with me.

Just catching up with this thread myself, and I have to say, I'm still excited about the new serices.

Not thrilled about Cham's look, but he can look like anything, so let's wait and see what his "normal" features are.

I figured the second photo was Sun Boy (sorry Scott, I saw flames, not lightning there, and Garth's my fave too!).

And I was thinking the same thing "matlarrk" just posted about Thom's hair. He had a crewcut all through Adventure era, and the box his profile is in is dark. Part of his face and ear appear much lighter than the rest of him, so I'd have to say I think he's Caucasian and its the "mood lighting" that makes him appear black. I was actually thinking as many of you did, that this was Tyroc at first. Would have been fine with that too! "Screaming Lad!"
Anyway...

Barry,
Brainy does have a left arm, right? I know he's slightly turned on the cover, but I would have thought we'd see a bit more of his left arm (unless it's tied behind him ), so I thought I'd ask.

Love Jan's new uniform, with the element symbols on it!

Can't wait for this book!!!

Wow, this sounds kinda cool! Some retro elements and some sociological twists? Is it a po-po-mo look at super-heroes (post post modern)? Obviously you can't please everyone, but I think they're doing a lot to appease loyal fans - they're bringing back fan-favorite corpses and mutated rebooters like Colossal Boy, Elemental Lad, and Projectra. They're reintroducing the original character names. They're keeping a fairly large roster of known characters. If every fan had they way, NO characters would ever die/go through life altering changes (or conversely every character would die since everyone has someone they don't like). You can't please all the people all the time - it just doesn't work that way. Although I picked up a few books preboot, I consider myself primarily a postboot fan working backwards to fill my Legion knowledge. Am I bummed that some of the stuff I've gotten to know over the years is being changed? Sure. But I'm more excited by the possibilities of what can come too. Can you imagine if the new LoSH really is a hit? Maybe we can get some main stream plugs in Entertainment Weekly. Maybe we can get a Wizard cover not featuring Superman, Batman, or Wolverine. Maybe Seth and Ryan will flash more Legion issues on the OC. Maybe we can get a friggin' Smallvillle appearance or Legion cartoon! Let's be optimistic about it!

I remain excited and encourage. Waid always talks about identifying the "core" characteristic of a series (e.g., Fantastic Four = Family) and centering his stories on that.

Thinking back to the original Legion, the future was pretty perfect -- even the criminals were incompetent -- and the Legion seemed to exist as a "club" to keep these super-powered youngsters occupied. They were also very cliquey (sic?) early on. Then, in the aftermath of Viet Nam and Watergate, when our perfect world crumbled from beneath us, the Legion became more about an empowered, separate youth culture forging its own way, independent of adult supervision and approval.I would also remind fellow posters that super-heroes WERE originally "super-social workers" -- standing up for the poor and downtrodden against the powerful and corrupt. Those impulses motivate lots of youth-powered causes today, so it is not an improbable to have a 31st century analog.

Okay, NOW I'm excited. Nura AND Dirk? Yay!
When I discovered The Legion in first grade back in the seventies, Sun Boy and Dream Girl were my instant favorites, so I'm thrilled!
I'm glad to see the return of more individualized costumes...The "center-stripe" uniforms of the last few years were okay, but it's time for something new.
The art looks GREAT! Now I'll just keep my fingers crossed for Dawnstar to show up!

Yeah, I think I'm likely to sink into a slow funk leading to depression until I get some sign that Wildfire is coming back.......(it's gonna be a long three (or four, or six, or...?) months....) It honestly makes it harder to get excited about the new series...

Also gone are the usless Legion belts. I think it's great that the Legion is returning to an individual costume look. It shows they are distinct champions from the planets they are from. I cant believe this is all actually happening...a return to preboot line up. Won't miss Gates, Kid Q..yuk, Kinetix, Andromeda, Gear, Montress, et all. The back to basics/classic hero/heores is what is working today. Just look at Hawkman, Teen Titans, Green Lantern, The Doom Patrol, it's all comin round again!

Yes, it kind of stinks for fans of the characters that only emerged in the reboot after a long wait. I didn't really get much out of the 2.0 Timber Wolf, but I'm going to hate it if I have to wait again for him to reappear.

<font size="5">No wings ... yet ... ~sigh~</font s>

Well, you know what part of me is always rooting for, folks. Not only no Dawnstar here, but -- to borrow from Chaim Keller's brain-fart (IMHO) in his Legion.hlp file -- no "Dawnstar (New Version)", either.

Yet. Though I'm not waiting with bated breath.

DnA's one entirely new Legionnaire seems to have been discarded, and I did like seeing Shikari -- on her own terms, not in light of her being any "reimagining" herself. Better dragonfly-ish wings than none at all.

I'll bet that any result of what was DnA's competent writing, no matter what they managed to realize or not, will have no place here. That's being wasteful. For that matter, I wonder if everything Legion from Cockrum to Simone is simply being put in the recycling bin.

Barry's art, what little we've seen so far, is clear and dynamic, and I do look forward to that. Perhaps it'll be the reverse of "Legion Lost," I'll find the art intriguing and much more than merely competent, and the writing will be abominable. I don't know. Waid seems too cavalier thus far.

I'm cautiously optimistic. I fully expect that once the hype and novelty has died down and Waid and Kitson have moved on (and creative teams always move on eventually as we know!) that it will sink without trace. Hope I'm wrong.

And I predict that eventually DC will throw up thier hands and bring back the Earth 1 Legion and have done with it. Remember, they weren't ever going to bring Hal Jordan as Green Lantern and Kara Zor-el back either. But they did in the end when it finally got through to them that that was what the readers actually wanted and what would make them a profit. And so it will prove with this also.

If it actually results in good sales they will bring back the Earth 1 Legion in a heartbeat. It's a business not a purely artistic venture after all. The original continuity will be back within 5-10 years, possibly sooner, mark my words. It's what people want. Reboot after reboot just confuses and alienates people from the title. It'll happen.

That said, my heart lept and I had a little tear in my eye when I found out that Princess Projectra is back. Yes!

Don't want Brainy to become a clone of Vril. I like Brainy the way he is now. *frowny face*. I think that the current continuity was too interesting to be discarded so suddenly too, at least the original Legion had thirty or so years before they got thrown out!

I also feel for the people who waited a long time for their favourites to finally make it into the (first) postboot continuity! We only just saw Drura again! I wouldn't hold my breath for her next appearance! (surprise me Mr. Waid, I'll think you're kewl!)

But other than that, I can say I'm intrigued, definitely.

Yes! Projectra!!!! It's been so long since I've seen her! It's like meeting an old friend again after so long. *cries with joy*.

I agree (somewhat) Dru.

DC seem to have chucked the baby out with the bathwater on this on.

There were some great things about the reboot - the first 3/4 of DnA's run mainly but also characters like Gates who I liked and the whole Legion World thing.

When Waid and Barry jump ship again (they've left Empire in the lurch - whats to stop them doing the same with the Legion in a year's time) DC will be left with a load of 60s throwback characters in terrible costumes.

I don't mean to be rude - but I think a lot of you are looking at this through rose tinted glasses. Go back and read LEGION and tell me if it's any good! I re-read it last week and it's all decidely average.

For DC and Kitson and Waid to keep telling us it isn't a reboot - and then basically throw out everything they haven't liked since 1978 (or whenever they're going back to with the membership) is a total insult.

Having said that I guess I'll buy it out of loyalty to the title - but then again that's part of the problem innit? DC just assumes the Legion readership will buy any old crap so keep rebooting it and generally messing it about for no reason.

Yay! Thom!
(I don't care if he's black, white or purple. He's in!!!)

Exactly. Which is why I'm NOT buying it, and encouraging everyone else to do the same thing.

If a story is good, then it should be read.
That's why I'll be buying the new series: to see if it's good. If it's good, I'll read it. If it's not, then I'll throw my hands up and complain...

And given that Waid and Kitson are involved, I'm cautiously optimistic. I got on board in '94 with the (last) reboot, so I feel that I may as well join the rest of the Legion faithful as they go thru thier... what is it 3rd and a half reboot of LSH?

This news sucks. We are getting 1 of 3 things here:
1 - total reboot - which means Waid has been lying the whole time about it not being a reboot.

2 - Legion "The Next Generation" - With the way some of the characters have been described it sounds like new characters with old names.

3 - Hypertime - Stuff gets mixed up during the Legion/Titans crossover and changes the future.

All three suck in my eyes. I am giving them 3 isues. If it is a total reboot like it sounds then I am not even giving it that. I swore I wasn't sticking around for another reboot. They might get some new fans out of this, but the Legion more than any other book out there is mantained by its core fans, and I can't see them embracing yet another reboot. At least I am not. Legion has always been my core title when it comes to comics, and if I drop that then me dropping pretty much all comics is probaly coming up fast.

Good -

Return of Sun Boy, a real Shrinking Violet, and (fingers crossed) a non-repitle Projectra. Chance to forget the ridiculous and unneccesary events of the reboot (Sneckie, Jarth, Gim's death, Dark Crap Rising, etc.)

Bad -

I guess we have to wait even longer to see the belated (if at all) returns of Dawnstar, Wildfire, Blok, Mysa, etc.

Really Bad -

Where does that leave us with Gates, Kinetix, Laurel Gand, and other heroes that we've accepted into the Legion family? Of course I'm leaving Jenni out of this because I'm optimistically assuming that Waid will bring his own creation back. Dang, I miss her.

"Good" is only one of the requirements. Like I've said before, I like my serials serial. Taking a pair of scissors to the structure is going to turn me off. There are two ways to turn me right off a comic.

1) Hitting the rewind button, logical or not (example - Hal Jordan-as-GL).
2) Ripping everything up in a "Never be the same Again" for the sake of ripping it up all in one go (examples - Morrison's NXM, Avengers Disassembled).

Amazingly, this completely peversely manages to hit BOTH in one go, which I didn't think was possible. It's SO peverse, it's nearly admirable. Almost.

And I don't see any reason to support Waid's vanity project. Not my Legion = I'm not buying.

Wow Mr R - you're quite robust in your displeasure aren't you? To be honest I feel the same. You're right, the best way to describe this is as a Mark Waid vanity project and when he gets bored in a year to 18 months DC will have to do another reboot.

I only started reading the spoilers about the relaunch tonight and everything I've read so far - from the new/old names to tediously predictable (if you're 40 years old) line up has really depressed me.

Random remarks:

--There's just no pleasing some folks. As long as this is a well-written LSH, I'll certainly take it over no LSH at all. That said, this will only be the 2nd full reboot I've had to endure.

--And yeah, this is definitely a reboot by another name. What's good about it is that it really IS also a "reimagining" of the LSH concept with a 2000s view of a utopian future rather than the 1950s one.

--I am so deeply disappointed that so few correctly IDed Tasmia on the cover. Hello? That shade of blue is only her actual skin color, people. You guys got too used to Coipel's rendition.

--I really hope Waid isn't doing a Vril reDox (heh) take on Brainy.

--Strangely, I'm not at all sorry to see the 1994 version newbies gone. The prospect of a fresh start -- REALLY fresh, hopefully free of plans to retell classic LSH stories with a new twist ("let's reintroduce Ferro Lad, but make HIM the traitor! And then kill off Jo this time! We'll be geniuseses") makes it worth losing XS & co. in favor of maligned classics Gim, Jecka, Vi, Garth, and Jan (to name only the ones reappearing).

--

But what makes it the LSH? Like I said, had I been reading in 1989 or 1994, I would have dropped it like a stone and never gone back.

Boy! Some very negative fans in here! I don't really post often but this whole thing has really got me pumped. The fact is change is a fact of life. Like an earlier poster said (sorry, forgot who) Life is full of change..adapt or perish. Iv'e been reading this book since 1978 and like alot of you have witnessed new writers, new creative teams, the reboot, death's of beloved characters, the five year gap(one of the lowest points in Legion history in my opinion)etc... Also like many of you I love the basic core of this book and look forward to the changes coming. Even though I will not miss any of the post boot characters (can't think of even one) I understand the frustration of post boot fans/newbies losing all of that history. I will give DNA alot of credit, they really tried to fix things and were on the right track for the first few issues of the relaunch. We got back Brin, Drake, Nura was fixed, etc.. But we also lost Garth, and Jan. Legion Lost was a great story but most of the run was OK AT BEST. The real problem was the five year gap/reboot one time period. What did the Archie Legion give us?? We lost Dawnstar, Blok, Sunboy, Tyroc.. We got Kid Q, Montress/She hulk, a bizarre Element Lad, a dead Gim, a growing Violet with a green wisp of hair alla Poltergiest, a giant Earth snake from an alien planet with racoon's, a totally hard to follow. poorly written Kinetix, the list goes on and on. I think this Legion will take the Legion back to basic's to the time(60's, 70'2 and 80's) when this book was one of the top selling books at DC. Nothing has worked since the late 80's. We need to realize that a new approah is needed. Any Legion, in my opinion, is better than no Legion. I used that same attitude to get me through the five year gap and the archie Legion. Im sure everyone will have aspects of this new book that they will like or dislike. I think the powers at be looked at the whole Legion history and said what was the lineup that worked(sales) the best since 1958? Let's give Mr. Waid and Mr. Kitson our positive support. We are a loyal bunch but also very demanding! Let's stay positive!

Methinks the reboot fans are learning the anguish many preboot fans felt back in 1994. We survived then, we'll survive now.

Me, I'm happy. Projectra's back. Dirk's back. Gim's back. Jan's back. All is swell!

As far as I'm concerned the reboot had gotten so bad I wouldn't have minded if Gail had had a maniacal Trudy Trusoe bludgeon the whole team to death with her microphone at the end of her story. And that's coming from someone who only became a fan of the Legion after the reboot!

I am more than happy with what I'm hearing about the new team.

Yayyy! Jan!

BARRY!!!

I just read on the DCMB that its you who's holding up the re-introduction of Bouncing Boy! Apparently Mark wants him in and you don't! What can I do to make you change your mind?!?

Bouncing Boy is a fantastic character - not only is he visually probably the most original character EVER but his power is super-cool and FUN, his personality is charming and endearing and by being slightly larger in the stomach than most other heroes he lends a touch of diversity and realism to this series that most other comics don't have. Not only that but if you look at the many Legion Survivor games that have taken place on this board you'll see that Chuck, as one of the more popular members, always finishes near the top! The fans want him back!

Let's face it - Bouncing Boy is one of the most original and easily recognisable members of this team and needs to be a permanent member ASAP! Please listen to Mark and consider bringing him back.

(Someone needs to start a thread where we can all clamour for Bouncing Boy's return!)

I TOO WANT BOUNCING BOY!

I THREE!

I will buy this issue, with my hand on my heart, and if Waid breaks it it's going to be the end of a long relationship. Whatever you think about the reboot, I've gotten to know those characters. And to just leave them dangling with no resolution is...just crap.

That is exactly what I've been thinking. For my part, I'm really excited about the new series. Waid has said that he wants to get back to character based storytelling, which will be a very refreshing change after DnA's plot-hammer style. And just because the initial line-up doesn't seem to include any post-booters doesn't mean that we won't see them. I feel confident that Waid will pick up some of these characters and finally give them the well rounded personalities they've desperately needed for ten years.

When the last reboot happened, I stopped reading the Legion for about four years. It took me that long to realize what some here have already said: any Legion is better than no Legion. I stopped reading because the Legionnaires in the reboot stories were not my Legionnaires. They still aren't. That may be part of why I'm more willing to see them go. Moreover, I think that Waid has matured enough as a writer in the last ten years that we don't have anything to worry about.

I'm looking forward to reading these new adventures. I think they're gonna be fresh, new, and exciting.

And if they're not, I'll stop reading for another four years.

Now you can tell us what you REALLY think of WaK's LSH!


Waid & Kitson Poll

Let's not form up into armed camps, just yet.

This really has me curious about the upcoming TITANS/LEGION special. If that *will be* this continuity's final hurrah, I hope there's some measure of closure. No way all the loose ends'll be tied up, but I hope *everything's* not left hanging...

...preboot did get that nicely done send off before the ZERO HOUR zero issues.

I'm not so sure that what Waid means by reboot is the same as the reboot of '94. I think the creators are going to enjoy keeping us on tenterhooks for the next three months (c'mon, you have to admit Legion fans are easy to bait...)

The fact that they've told us the identities of 13 (or so) of the supposed 18 opening characters makes me a little suspicious...

Todd

Yes, I am four for Bouncing Boy coming back.

I started reading the Legion in the Adventure era in the 60's. I took time off in the late 70's and 80's and came back in the early 90's. At that time, I caught up on what I had missed. Generally, I've taken the various incarnations of the Legion in stride and learned to love each one (although the Giffen era still troubles me). Nevertheless, I still missed my original silver age legion. So I for one am pleased to see the old names back and some of the original legionaires returning. I don't for a minute delude myself that I'm getting my old legion back, but that's ok. I'm excited about the changes and really looking forward to picking up that first issue in December.

I hope that those of you who are disappointed right now for whatever reason, will give it a chance. After all, life is about change. You've got nothing to lose except a couple of bucks or pounds.

Please no Bouncing Boy or other old silly stuff. I mean we can use Chuck Taine in a supporting role without him turning into a big ball.

CMN3 Vee

Thanks for pointing out the color wash thing. I was kinda getting depressed with all of the "Star boy is BLACK? WHOA! AVANT GARDE!" stuff. It's funny, everybody poops a brick because there aren't enough aliens on the cover but then Star Boy...

But still...
No Timber Wolf? Hey, how about bringing him in as 'The Lone Wolf Kid' or 'Wolf Boy' or 'Timber Lad', eh?
C'MON! He's the PROTO-WOLVERINE for grife sakes!
He's my favorite damn Legionnaire!!
He Doesn't HAVE to be all furry, you know! Use the old school version!
WAWAWAAAAAAAAH!

what's wrong with that? Chuck always had a silly power, but as the Legion writing matured and he outgrew the inbuilt joke of his name he became a really well rounded character

ah... sorry.

Anyway, it's always infuriated me in the last few years that the current book considers him too silly to include in the team, but created a 'bouncing boy' spaceship.

Go Chuck!

Well I'm too professional to deny or confess over Mark's charge about Bouncing Boy ... but if he keeps this up I'll start saying he's keeping other characters out that I want in!

Well I guess the cat's amongst the pigeons - this was always going to be a case where some people would take against anything new - totally understandable - I actually very pleasantly surprised how many folks are looking forward to the new look. It will be scary for a while - but all change is.

I do resent being accused of 'leaving Empire in the lurch' DC only ever agreed to print the first volume - after which they asked us to work on Legion. We still own Empire and we will return to it when we can - but there was no way we were going to turn down this opportunity...or be able force DC to publish more Empire when they weren't ready to yet!

The point about the future in our setting is that it's 'Utopia' for some folks, but not for everyone in the universe - the Legion is against the 'we're okay, everyone else can go hang' attitude.

The approach we've taken is to try and make the new Legion something that readers with no prior LSH history will find accessible and enjoyable - but that folks like yourselves with a good LSH background will be able to have an extra perspective on (and hopefully an extra level of enjoyment from). It will be different for all us long time Legion readers - but different is what the Legion always has been amongst comics as far as I'm concerned- hopefully reading it will be a little as it was for me when I first encountered Legion - a unique book that could take me on journeys no other comic could!

Well, I've obviously said enough to get more verbal (actually are posts regarded as verbal?) slings and arrows coming my way - along with the much appreciated encouragement which I truly am grateful for - so I'm off back to the drawing board!

I'll start lobbying Mark to tell the truth about Bouncing Boy....

Talk to you soon!

I love that Barry Kitson has enough chutzpah to venture into our forum. Admittedly, as a whole, we are a nice community with only the occasional foot-in-mouth poster, but still.

Has Mark Waid posted on LW yet? I hope he does.

I echo Vig Lad's opinions that any Legion is better than no Legion. Actually, the more threads I come across tonight, the less reticent I am about this reboot. I've survived reboots and retcons before, I (re)imagine I'll survive this one too!

I'll second your appraisal of Kitson's bravery -- it's awful swell of him to come here when we're all aflutter with nothing but a possible cover image and a lot of conjecture. It's always encouraging to see that the creatives really believe what they're doing and have a passion for it. Even if it weren't the Legion, that will usually get me to check out the first few issues of a book.

Thanks Guys!

I will admit it's a bit scary seeing there's a poll on our work before anyone's even seen it!

Seriously though, it is a pleasure to be here - we're all Legion fans - so as long as we can agree to disagree in a civilized manner on some things I'm more than happy to 'fight my corner'

Thanks again for the encouragement and the welcome!

Don't worry about that Barry! Around here you should always assume that things are in jest until you have absolute proof to the contrary. We love our Legion but we also love to have frolicsome good times. You could say we're the Saturday Night Live of comicdom!

Its when we're not doing polls or suggesting that something would be better with "...of Space" behind it that you need to start worrying.

Having said the above, I should also point out that you'll find the most knowledgeable, loyal Legion fans by far,right here on LegionWorld. If you want to know anything at all about the Legion, just ask. You'll quickly get an accurate answer (with references!) from numerous posters.


Edited to add the following: BTW Barry, thought I should point out that most of us are using temporary IDs to honor the Legion Titans crossover. For example, I'm normally Varalent (nicknamed Vee) on this and other boards. As soon as the crossover is finished we'll be reverting. I'll try to always sign my name in these posts so that when the "REBOOT" occurs, you won't be TOO confused!

Vee

I'm sure we all wish you and Mark the best prospects possible, Barry, no matter what we may fear or hope to see.

Lash LaRue's poll is indeed facetious. A lot of us wonder at the extensive judgments being made about work where we haven't even seen the precursor story (the "Titans" crossover), let alone the "Legion" tales proper.

Yeah Barry, the poll was just for laughs, my way of trying to lighten up some of the fears around here... actually, it looks like most folks are handling this re-imagining thingie pretty well though.

Hi Barry!

Thanks very much for continuing to come back to us as you have been. Its great to be able to interact with a creator like this. And even though a few people here may have reservations I think the vast majority of posters are really excited about your upcoming relaunch. Tell Mark to come join the fun here too!

Also - since Mark will hopefully be getting his wish with Bouncing Boy (hint hint ) why don't you tell us which characters you want to bring in and then we'll start a thread demanding their return too! Its only fair! And we're all about seeing forgotten characters get their chance in the sun here on Legion World. So spill the beans - who do you want brought in?

Barry, do you love Infectious Lass and Matter-Eater Lad?

And please tell me you love Condo!!!!

Jeepers, guys!

As Barry said months ago , in response to an important question from me:

Jeepers H. Tutu! The solicitation just came out and already this thread is eleven pages long!

I'm a little late to the game, but here are my guesses as to the cover ID's:

TOP ROW (L to R)
Imra
Dirk (initially I thought Garth, but now believe it to be Dirk)
Nura
Troy (although pose is more reflective than anrgy, leading to idea it could be Jacques)
Lu (Initially I though Violet, but just lloks too much like Lu to me)

SECOND ROW
Rokk
Nemesis Kid (At 1st I thought Jan, now leaning toward NK)
Tinya
Lori (Possibly Projectra, but looks is just too Glorith for me)
Brainy
Jo
Gear (most are leaning to Cham, but it really looks more Gear to me)
Chuck (although coul dbe anyone I guess. Mostly wishful thinking then)

AAAAGGGGHHHHHHH!

We lost Brin again?

Geez.

Other than that, i will certainly try it. Perhaps the utopia everyone is worried about is a total crackdown by Tinya's mom and the government, and the legion have to break their grasp.

I don't know. really. But i will try it. Barry gets that much respect from me at the start.

Don't bother guessing. Barry confirmed earlier:

Insets: Saturn Girl, Sun Boy, Dream Girl, Star Boy, Shadow Lass

Main: Cosmic Boy, Element Lad, Phantom Girl, Princess Projectra, Brainiac, Ultra-Boy, Chameleon, Karate Kid

Of that, there can be absolutely no doubt.

Are we talking *good* SNL or *bad* SNL here?

I, for one, am Not Ready for Prime Time!

Everything after Belushi sucked @$$.

I agree that Waid likes to identify the core of a series, but he doesn't always hit the mark (so to speak) effectively.

I dropped JLA because Waid's stories, to be blunt, bored me. Literally. I just didn't care if I picked up the next issue (a sure sign to cancel a serial). His run on the Flash has some good moments, but he didn't thrill me the way Geoff Johns has on the book. The most impressive, consistent work I've seen from him has been Fantastic 4, with an amazing artist alongside.

I <<HOPE>> Legion is another place where Waid is able to thrive. BUT I didn't like his prior Legion issues/reboot, and Empire, for all its interesting premise and cool character concepts, didn't grab me the way any of Warren Ellis's recent minis have (6 or 7 completely original and finite ideas in the past 2 years). There was something visceral missing in the art and writing of Empire IMO. I didn't feel the edge of the danger, didn't have a sense of how powerful these people were, could never feel the sex or smell the funk of it. For a story about "The Man Who Conquered the World," these elements should be tattooed from the page into my head and they weren't (Waid's Doom introduction in F4, on the other hand...). Somehow, Empire was too-reminiscent of L.E.G.I.O.N. in design-sense (sorry, Barry - i like your work mostly) and in the whole "dad's wearing a leather jacket"-cool sensibility in the 'dark' storytelling.

Waid's notion of the Utopia-Future needing Agents of Change is a nice reversal of the premise of the Legion (the philosophy of this reversal premise bearing fruit in the re-imagining of Collosal Boy/Micro Lad). I just hope that they aren't all happy go-lucky caucasion heterosexual humanoids populating the future, because that's not a future I want to see or be in. And that's the key, for me, to the Legion: is that a future I want to join?

I'm looking forward to the new improved Legion. Even if it does include the "of Super Heroes" after it in the logo

I like Barry's art a lot and from the small amount of Marks writing I've read he enjoys dealing with team dynamics and diverse characters - that can't be bad after the last four years of the "Legion of Scene Stealers and no characterisation for anyone else", can it?

Good luck with it all Barry (and Mark if you're lurking )

LLL

Bxx

Don't count Brin ( or anyone) out too soon - we have all sorts of plans for everybody

Just because they aren't on the cover doesn't mean they won't be in the stories....just that there was only so much room on the cover

Tell that to George Perez... you SAW his JLA/Avengers #3 cover, right?

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Waid is a good to great writer, I'll go along with him for a while before I decide...and I'll certainly not make any decisions based on solicitations and cover thumbnails. Of course, having an excellent, polished artist can't hurt...What's this on my nose?

I guess I'm feeling cautiously optimistic about the relaunch. I'm still not completely sure I'm feeling the concept, but that's just going by the wording in the solicitation. I've learned in the past that sometimes you actually have to see the concept in story form before really getting the full effect. So, I'm waiting to see the actual book before I "pass judgement".

I do wholeheartedly agree with this last statement of MYG's.

And I echo MYG's sentiments too. As much as I love the Adventure-era characters, their big drawback was that they were all predominantly straight, white, male humanoids. Whereas one of the best things about the reboot was that the membership was a lot more diverse.

Hopefully some kind of happy medium can be struck in the upcoming relaunch. (Maybe this is why we have what might be a black Star Boy? Hmmm.)

One more question for Barry if he's checking back in, this is an easy one. Since the solicit only lists art by Barry Kitson, are you inking as well as pencilling? Just curious. Thanks for taking the time to participate here.

Matt

I hope you're practicing drawing circles - lot's of them. You know we have a way of eventually getting what we want.

Long live Bouncing Boy.

My two cents: I have mixed feelings about this latest reboot. I've always found Waid very hit or miss. I loved JLA: Year One and Kingdom Come but didn't enjoy his run on the Flash or find his JLA very compelling. So I think LSH could be either fan-freakin-tastic or just so-so.

I will also be deeply upset if none of the characters introduced in the last ten years make their team. I've grown so fond of Gates, Kid Q, and XS that I have a hard time imagining the Legion without them. I'm also not sure if anything in the premise that they've announced couldn't have been done in the current continuity.

It's not that I hate all change, or even think that a reboot is necessarily a bad thing, I just want some acknowledgement that the last decade of stories happened. And that not all of the stories, characters and concepts introduced during that period sucked so badly that they should be forgotten like a bad dream. Then again, I liked Jeckie as a snake.

That said, I will pick up the book and give it a chance. And I would like to add my thanks to Barry for posting here, even if my enthusiasm for the title is not unqualified.

Whoops, didn't mean to post twice. I just can't figure out how to edit my posts.

Edit: Allow me

Barry, I know you're not too familiar with the USA; Dallas is a long way from Minneapolis. If you think I'm driving that far to buy you that beer... well, it is beer and you and Legion artwork. ROADTRIP!

Have you lot go no shame at all? Have you all suspended your taste glands just coz Barry is posting?

I'd be amazed if everyone was still frothing at the fanny about this stinky looking reboot if Saint Bazza wasn't on here.

Right - I don't mean to be rude, but do you honestly think new readers are going to be attracted to the book? Bringing back the Lad/lass names is a bad move (when I tried to get my friends to read Legion in the 80s they wouldn't because they were put off by the names) and culling the membership from the ranks of the Adventure era is just going to alienate any Legion readers under the age of 35.

CL, click on this image above a post you want to edit, . That will allow you to change anything you want or even delete your own posting.

So change is OK only when you get what you want then? I wouldn't hold my breath if you're waiting for Waid to reboot Tyroc or Dawnstar.

I really hated the Archie era - but I loved what DnA did to fix it. That's what should happen when creative teams are changed! Their replacement should have built on the brilliant iconography they created (thresholds, Titanet, the cadets) instead of just ignoring all DnA's hard work and throwing it in the bin. It's the arrogance of this reboot that's really getting my goat. Basically, if you weren't buying Adventure in the 60s there's no need to bother reading the new title.

You don't get Wonder Woman rebooting every time there's a new creative team do you? So why should we?

Hmmm... reboot Wonder Woman...

Thanks Nightchangeling.

Hi Guys - thanks for the kind comments, to answer a couple of the questions that came up...

The legion and the future DEFINITELY aren't all happy go-lucky caucasion heterosexual humanoids , in fact many of the future's inhabitants aren't ANY of those things. The Legion itself won't be those things either. At the start they are mostly humanoid, but that'll be explained too.

I will be inking the book myself as long as possible - until the 30 pages a month defeats me totally!

Plus Barry is saying all the right things. Hey I like humanoids! Easily can be explained why most of them are...especially since most of the Legionnaire planets are descendents of Earth (Invasion/Dominion/Monel).

I am also bummed not all of my faves are there but the fact that Barry mentions they will show up is a plus.

can't wait for Shikari!

Jorge

THANKS, BARRY! This is an extremely comforting bit of news.

OUCH. Who do you think you are, John Romita Jr.? Seriously, man, that's amazing.

wow !!! i'm away for 3 days [ went to London, for an awards ceremony .... ]

and there's this EXCITING new "Legion of Super Heroes" news !!! and 13 pages of posts, so far .....

i'm not sure what to make of it at the moment ??? the image by BARRY looks cool, and the info on the characters, is interesting !!! a return to their original names, is great !!!

i always preferd those over the current ones, i'm so confused to see how we get to this, from the current storyline ???

roll on the next issue of the "TEEN TITANS" and the cross over special .....

Matthew.

Thanks for all the posts Mr. Kitson, I can tell you that if I had any doubts about giving this series a try before you posted, I don't now. Knowing that you have bothered to find out what the fan reaction is to the little info we have is comforting.
I, like many here, am tired of the state of flux that the Legion has been in, lo, these many years (since the Great Darkness in my opinion- some good, some bad, but little stability) and I hope that what you and Mr. Waid begin here can be a foundation for years of Legion stories, maybe even triple digit issue numbers again. If this is the last number 1 Legion issue I ever have to see I won't be disappointed. Good luck and have fun gentlemen.

BTW, put it in the happy box with the "They're just rebooting back to the Adventure years!!" chatter. Maybe read an issue before you decide what they have done?

I'm optimistic about this "take" on the Legion.

It's amazing that some people will write it totally off if they haven't read a word of the issue yet. Ah well...different strokes baby.

I seem to remember them rebooting Wonder Woman after the Crisis.... Oh the horror!

Anyway, I agree with narrrowhouse, give 'em a try before we condemn them. If you don't like it after that, don't read it.

When you've been down this road as many times as I and others have with the Legion,(reboot after reboot)you tend to not to be so optimistic. So it's really not so amazing that some people write it off before they even read a word of the new issue. It DOES get old after a while. As I mentioned before, they (DC) knows that loyal readers like me will continue to come back anyway. It's not fair to us, but it's been happening for years.

Just remember how many of the creators we have on our side. Of course we have an evil publishing empire to contend with but when haven't we? (curse Jeanette Khan)
There's a unique connection between the Legion and it's fans and creators and I find it quite comforting to know that people that write and draw the Legion love the Legion as much as we do.

Give 'em hell boys, let's see that indie rock Legion!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Barry Kitson:
[QB] Don't count Brin ( or anyone) out too soon - we have all sorts of plans for everybody

Hi Barry,
Can you please tell me if Invisible Kid/Lyle Norg is going to be on the team?? He is my favorite Legionnaire. :-)

Originally posted by Barry Kitson:
Don't count Brin ( or anyone) out too soon - we have all sorts of plans for everybody

Than-Q
Very
Very
Much!

Thanks everyone!

On the reboot debate - I'm reliably informed LSH has only actually been rebooted once.... though as there have been so many changes of direction I can understand the debate ( I would have said more than once if I'd been asked before) I believe KC Carlson said at the Baltimore Legion panel that it was a reboot done to fit in with - and to save as much LSH continuity as possible from - a DCU event that necessitated it, so it wasn't really as deeply thought out as all those involved would have liked. I know it doesn't change any of the concerns some of you have, but I thought it was interesting. Personally I've completely given up on trying to understand what does or doesn't constitute a reboot!

Anyway...

My answer on Invisible Kid is the same as for Timber Wolf

Thanks again!

Lar Gand?If he does appear what is Waid gonna call him Marvel Lad?

Legionnaire Lemon!..or maybe he'll get a pink outfit with a question mark on it?

Thanks for checking in so often Barry. We really appreciate the information you've dropped here for us and we'll probably worry it to death during this three month stint of legionless comic shops.
Don't worry too much about the negatives, normally this is as pleasant a crew as you'll find anywhere but the stress of doing without our monthly fix is already beginning to show.

My god, it could get really ugly before Dec.29th.
...on second thought run! Run for your life!

Barry, on the matter of reboots.

Crisis happened and it changed things in the series but it wasn't a reboot. Then we had the 5 years gap story which wasn't a reboot until issue #4.

Mon-El kills the Time Trapper we get the Morduverse. That is rebooted and we get things back to "normal" with some minor changes all around.

And then yeah the obvious reboot with Zero Hour. But between Crisis, 5 year gap, Zero Hour and now this...well we've had some upheavels.

Thanks for posting.

Been a fan since right around the Great Darkness Saga in the early 80's. Actually been a fan since the mid 70's, but got into collecting in the early 80's. So, don't presume to know hoe long some of "us" have been fams.

I've been around for the reboot. There have been tweaks along the way, but only one true reboot.

I'm a long term fan, and still optimistic about the book. I still always give something a chance before totally writing it off. Although, if Liefeld was reimagining the Legion...that might be a different story.

Well, here's what your partner-in-crime said at that time:

"I'm sorry if I sound cranky, but this wasn't an editorial fiat from DC. This drastic change was my choice, and DC chose to back me."
http://www.legionworld.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002300

[Edited to fix link that was broken after the topic was moved & moved back]

Is the DCU event Barry's referring to here Identity Crisis?

I thought he was referring back to Zero Hour.

You could be right, but iirc there was nothing about Zero Hour that necessitated an LSH reboot. Seems to me they just took advantage of it to save a dying franchise from oblivion, having missed the earlier (and more appropriate) opportunities afforded by the 1985/86 Crisis on Infinite Earths and Levitz's departure in 1989.

Thank you Aqua Yellow - much appreciated - I'll try to keep that in mind!


Hi Reboot and Tromium Crystal - the event Mark was referring to - and the jury is still out as to whether it is a reboot or not - is our 're-imagining' - the reboot KC was refeering to was the Zero Hour one (I think)

That WAS due to DC editorial, the changes we're bringing in were our choice. We think we're taking the best course to keep the book alive and bring in new readers - we knew some folks would be against the idea and totally respect your right to feel that way - we were hoping to win most fans around, but if you have decided not to give the book a try that is of course your right - I hope you'll change your mind of course...cos then we'd have something to really get our teeth into

Like you guys I've been through all the LSH changes - and I'll admit there were 'phases' I really didn't care for too much...but like you I kept on reading. I'm hoping the phase I'm involved in will be one I like

Hey Barry. Personally I will try to read the book regardless of whether or not it constitutes a reboot. I do have a question though, that you may or may not choose to answer. Will there be any characters from the reboot (last ten years) in the new LSH?

You've sorta made clear that older characters like Timberwolf may come back, and the released roster seems entirely composed of 60's legionnaries, but it makes my heart heavy to recieve no word of great characters like Kid Quantum (kid code name and all!), Gates, and XS. A little hint, anything. I'm dying here...

Well, that contradicts what Mark said at the time. The thing I quoted REFERRED to the Zero boot.

Hi Reboot - well there's goes my attempt to try to make sense of what's go on before

Hi Cad Lad - ANY characters from the Legionpast can come back - we haven't set any rules as to when or who - so don't look for a pattern that reflects what's been before....just keep your eyes peeled!
We really just figured the roughly 20 characters we're starting with were more than enough to come to terms with immediately with all the changes, but more will appear and join while some dare I say it will leave or die as the story moves on.

Thanks Barry.

The permanent death of a classic, core character would mean the end of me as a reader.

My pleasure

I actually fought pretty hard for one of the more 'modern' characters to be in the starting line-up, but I was won over that it makes best sense for them to turn up along the way.

Well, it's fairly simple. Either whoever told you that was mistaken, or Waid lied. One or the other.

Well as I'm not in a position to testify to which is the case - I'll leave it at that.

That strikes me as way too simplistic.

Why? Waid was speaking while the thing was in progress, about his own actions. If there's any inaccuracy there, it has to be deliberate. Whereas, even if whoever spoke to Barry was wrong, it's 10 years down the line. Even if they were involved, it's possible they simply misremembered.

Of course, they could lie to Barry, or Barry could lie to us, but I don't see any motive for such, whereas Waid was directly responding to someone who was reacting badly to the reboot they were talking about.

Sometimes when decisions get made it isn't clear precisely who makes them. Especially in making major changes like this, precisely who initiates it or who is ultimately responsible for it can get really fuzzy really quickly. It may have been Waid's pecerpetion that the decision was ultimately his to make, while it may have been the perception of those higher up that the events were necessitated for various reasons.

Kind of harsh to be accusing people of lying. Booty,it seems that you are not going to be happy about the new Legion series no matter what is said, written, or done. Lashing out isn't going to help with that. You might have some misdirected anger there. Do you need a hug?

On another matter, how cool is it that the some creators chose to interact here? Barry, love your work. Always have. Not that I am kissing ass or anything, unless it gets me anything free out of it!

I am looking forward to your work on the new series. And will let you know what I think of it after a few issues. Thanks for your time!

Well I'm glad there's a perfectly good reason for DC trashing 10 years of Legion stories then. :rolleyes:

Thanks thor2168 - I appreciate it!

Wow Barry!
Thanks for staying so cool amidst all this drama. Add me to the list of fans looking forward to the new series. I've been a Legion fan since the early 70's so I've seen a lot of changes. I've also seen a lot of these flare-ups over previews and solicitations. I wish people could hold themselves together a little better.

I had a very hard time with the Zero Hour reboot. In fact, for several issues, I didn't get it. I was in such a state of denial that it was a reboot, I kept waiting for the return of the characters I knew. Once I finally got there, I came to embrace the new Legion. I guess I'm easy to entertain, because I liked what was going on. Then, DnA came along and the previews of Legion of the Damned were posted and people went nuts. There were people who already knew they'd hate it--way before it came out. Well, LotD jump started the Legion series, which led to Legion Lost and the last series. I believe that DnA's work was done. They'd lost some steam. The Legion does need something new. I can understand why people might not care for a re-imagining. Why not have a great new set of creators breathe their vision into the current series? I also understand that starting over can be great. I will wait and see how this turns out. I'm one of the optimistic ones. I LOVE the preview art we've seen and I love the guessing games that have come with it. You've got Legion fans going again. It's amazing to me that that's still possible after all this time!

Hey Barry!
Would it give anything away or break any rules if you were to scan in a few character sketches?..or just some of your warm up stuff? I'll bet you have some old fanboy sketches of Legionnaires from your pre-professional days.

I promise on a stack of bagged Adventure comics that I'll try to get Loser Lad and Deanlegion to color them!

Hi, Barry!
I don't know about 'best sense', but I can wait for Gates, Shikari, XS, Gear and Kid Q, in that order, since you give me hope about seeing them again someday.
Soon, I also hope.
After all, I've always wanted to see Gates cocoon into a butterfly (or moth) type, just to see him grouse and possibly get with Shikari.


Shady/Candle

Yeah! Why not? Shame they're all working at Marvel though innit?

Respect, Comet. It's clear you don't care for Barry's work; no need to dis him too.

ooooo! I never ever thought of that. What a brilliant idea. I love it!

Comet King, the rest of us, whether we are looking forward to the new series or not, manage to be respectful and polite -- as we try to be to all Legion World members. I suggest you fall in line or sign off until you can.

Aw, c'mon. That's just vicious.
I think the preview of Barry's cover is fantastic.

Comet, I respectfully disagree with your ignorant remark...Besides DC having as much talent as Marvel, I think DC has far superior characters. I'll take substance (DC) over flash (Marvel), any day...

Barry's work IS fantastic. Dig his HOT Projectra! *dreamy sigh*

I laughed out loud on this one.

THANK YOU>

I like that curmudgeon Reboot, but he certainly is taking a repetitive whack to a creator of a book he's loudly insisted he won't be picking up.

Just trying to lighten the mood a bit...Glad it worked for you...

Dig his dreamy Dreamy!

I'm not taking a whack at Waid for the new book. IF I'm taking a whack at him, it's for ending the current Legion beyond hope of reclaimation. Which has, honestly, made me angry.

I like Brainy with a buzz cut!

See? You do need a hug.

...and I don't really like that cover either. Maybe it's the muted colors but I don't think that one's going to leap off the shelves.

You could do an infamous "This Issue Everybody Dies!" cover and in usual comic book fashion have it be hyperbole but have the story be so cool that nobody cares. That'd sell the mutha!

I think Barry's mentioned somewhere that the colors in the preview are not going to be the same as on the released version, so hopefully we'll be seeing something a little more eye-catching.

All I wanna know is...and this is very important insofar as whether or not I buy this new Legion or not...is whither Zoe?

Big surprise, coming from me, huh!

I was actually referring to keeping on Barry Kitson for a response to something that he either can't, won't or doesn't feel like answering. If you want a response from Waid, go ask him.

Kitson's presence on the board has certainly encouraged me to at least TRY the new series.

In all honesty, I hated the 1994 reboot and dropped the book for 4 years prior to DnA. Was going to drop it again if it wasn't for Simone's arc.

Hey Barry, thanks for stickin' around despite the vitriol!

Hey, reboot, you're not alone. I think that this is a disgusting and unnecessary act. I don't mind a shake-up, but completely erasing (whether or not it still exists as an alternate timeline is irrelevant) what's come before? If I had been a fan in '94, I doubt I'd be one now.

But what can I say? DC doesn't care much about continuity anymore. Marvel was bad there for a while, but they seem to be getting better again. Just in time for DC to eff it all up.

I will miss the Legion.

I made (counts) 2 posts "at" Kitson over it, and one other which he replied to. The first was to correct what seemed to be a factual inaccuracy in something Barry said. The second was to correct a misinterpretation of my post on his part. The third was a flat statement which, since I knew he couldn't answer, wasn't directed at him and I was surprised he replied (albeit with what amounted to "I don't know.")

The only other post I made on the subject was replying to EDE replying to me.

That's hardly hounding him.

woof woof

I haven't been around these boards much lately, since they decided to cancel The Legion.

To me, the ReBoot era is MY Legion. The one that brought me to the party. I'm not thrilled that it's being thrown away, because honestly, it had a lot of potential left in it.

Jarth - Learning to deal with his new body, and a girlfriend who (I feel) still had a bit of negativity in her about said change. Can't be easy to have your boyfriend encased in the reconstituted body of the guy more or less responsible for his death.

Jeckie - Also dealing with changes in her life, trying to come to terms with her new look and possibly life as an outcast from her people.

Gates - was violated horribly and used as a power source. You just know he's still upset about that...

Karate Kid - has a cute new girlfriend, sorta.

The Rehabilitation of Mekt

The Naming of Cub

Kinetix and her rise to power...how is she handling the situation, since she finally got what she always wanted (sorta)

Wildfire's limited lifespan (and supposed dual persona)

The Valor subplot (which was seemingly switched for no good reason the second Kon-El showed up)

These are off the top of my head, since I haven't read any of the books for a while now. (I have them, it's just been a while since I read them). There are probably many more. If handled properly, this incarnation of the Legion could have lasted another ten years, easy.

I won't lie and say I'm happy about the new reboot or whatever the frell anyone wants to call it. I'm not, it feels too much like a betrayal. And for what? Outdated codenames and a social activist agenda rebelling against a false utopia? That's nowhere near what I signed up for.

I'm not saying it won't be a good book, but it's not Legion. Not MY Legion. I'll be buying the first few issues, but it's not the same book, not the same at all. And if it wants to stay on my pull list, it will have to earn its keep as its own separate entity, because it will not stay there out of loyalty to the old book. Because it isn't the old book. These aren't the characters I grew to love.

This is not to criticize Mark and Barry. I liked Empire, and Mark's FF title is the only FF on my pull list. Barry is a fantastic artist, and I may be in the minority, but I love the cover to LSH#1 as it is. It looks great, and although I don't like some of the costume designs seen there, art will not be the reason I might drop the book. The ball is in Mark's court. I dare him to make me keep the book!

Hear Hear Pex.

[Although I've dropped FF, and am not going to pick up the new LSH for the reasons you described. If it was Image's "Regiment of Parahumans" I might give it a chance. But it's replacing "my" Legion, so it doesn't get it.]

Well said, Pex! Although I look forward (at this point) to the new series, I do empathize with your regret that the postboot Legion has come to an end.

I agree with you that this will be a NEW Legion. The postboot was a NEW Legion for me and I found things to appreciate in it.

I like that you will give the new series a fair shake before making your final decision.

But mostly it's just nice that you can express your misgivings in a non-confrontational way. Thank you for giving me insight into YOUR Legion.

Thanks, guys. The creepy thing is...

When I was younger, my brother and I used superhero cards as "action figures", carving out elaborate storylines (that occasionally made sense and that mostly took place in the X-Men Mansion) and crafting one vast world featuring Marvel, DC, Image, you name it! The only Legion cards I had were Dragonmage, Catspaw, and Gossamer (who Mike Allred's Madman had a crush on, and used to follow her around everywhere and drive her crazy. ) Point is, after several months would pass, we'd get bored and start over, rebooting everything and starting fresh.

Man, I had no idea that was gonna come back and haunt me like that...

DC's worse, without a doubt. At least when Marvel continuity errors come up, it's from ignorance or carlessness, and are usually limited in effect.

DC are quite happy to reguarly take CHAINSAWS to their universe. The closest Marvel equivelants (Byrne's Spider-Man & Hulk Chapters One), got retconned out in favour of the originals in Webspinners and Captain Marvel respectively. And even they were tinkering around the edges, against DC's "chuck EVERYTHING out and start again" or "let's make huge, irreconcilable-with-stuff-that's-technically-still-in changes in high-profile mini-series. Who cares if we'll ever have a working timeline again."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by toddcam:
<strong>I will miss the Legion.

Boy this just goes on and on and on... Let's move on people and support the new creative team. There are many, many biggger problems in the world right now than this.
Comet King ....turn it off please...and just for you to think about.. How about close to FORTY YEARS of stories and history wiped clean and hundreds of characters wiped out or changed into snakes or new She-Hulk characters. The reboot era of the Legion was weak with the exception of Lost and the first 6 issues of the new book. But we are all still here!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, and this is the The Legion forum. You can discuss things like Bush's lack of brains in the Anywhere Machine.

I have no desire, nor reason to "support the new creative team."

Hey, I never told any of those guys who complain about their lost Legion to get over it. They have the right to whine, we have the right to whine.

I feel like the guy in Mall Rats, if I unfocus my vision and look at the pic the right way should I see a sailboat?

Looks like a smashed-up L* logo to me,

I was just being silly. That's actually a pretty cool graphic, splice a shattered Time Trapper into it and it would made a hell of a cover for Zero Hour.

Well, all I can say is thank goodness Gary and Scott didn't feel like you when THEIR Legion got rebooted. Otherwise, there wouldn't even BE a Legion World for you to have been posting on this year

I am thrilled that Mark Waid will be handling the writing. He'll never let the Legion stray too far from the one I love. I've been a fan since 1970 and own virtually every Legion appearance, as well as nearly every super-pet appearance, including Krypto. The Legion & the JSA are the two books/teams that really bring out the fan-boy in me.
I welcome the return of the Adventure-era Legion en toto, despite the all-humanoid white-boy (& girl) appearance. How wonderful that there will be a reasonable explanation for this, opening the group up to more diversity. Personally, it is my strong desire to see EVERY legionnaire of valuie returned, including Chuck & Tenzil as active members. I've long thought Bouncing Boy could be a combo of Elastic Lad with the trademark bounce of the original Chuck (maybe even some extra durability or something thrown in). Similarly, Calorie Queen really opened up the possibility to expand on Tenzil's power. Of course, I want to see the 70's-80's crew, including Tyroc & Blok, thrown in. Even the Legion subs are great. Tellus is okay. Kono was pretty cool. Computo/Danielle was a welcome addition. Finally, XS, Kid Quantum II and Gates have become classics. Hey, weren't we promised a LEGION!! I remember the days of the 25-member limit, and I hated it. Now, if you throw in Superboy & Supergirl, I'll buy multiple copies (for real).
You know, reading Barry's posts & knowing Mark, I trust I'm going to love this. Hey, maybe we'll even see a cool version of the super-pets, including Krypto. I'm getting chills.
Thanks, guys, for the promise of having my absolute favorite characters reinterpreted in a way that's fun, exciting, and true to the vision that inspired me as a child.

I agree, although as one who came on board only a couple of years before the last major reboot, I've been through this before.

But your list of plot danglers also really sums up why The Legion failed. DnA themselves completely neglected many of those plots for way too long in favor of the rather anemic Dream Crime and Foundations arcs. In at least one case, they didn't know where they were going at all (Jarth). That's not good writing, and to me it filtered through to the rest of the book, making the last year's worth of The Legion much less compelling than any of DnA's work on the LSH prior.

It's just messed-up that you can actually say that. So many other possible characters out there and yet Marvel insists on doing multiple versions of every A-list or B-list franchise...(But I suppose it's better than their previous plan to have just one FF title WITHOUT Waid)

First off the ending of DnA's excellent Legion is why many are upset including myself. Something else else I liked very much is done. I am also a huge Batista fan (got a fan letter published in his Spaceknights mini!). "Get over it" isn't the nicest way for me to get over it.

I am not the biggest fan of the new creative team BUT I am going to be open minded b/c I am such a big legion fan.

Also Barry has won me over being so nice on these boards so I am going to try hard to enjoy his work. His cover looks real good...30 pages is alot of work...i hope the inside looks as good!

With so many excellent former inkers like KESEL and Mahlstedt who I think would complement Barry...I wonder how long before we get an inker?

Doesn't KESEL work with Waid & Ringo on the FF? I love KESEL.

Jorge

I wouldn't mind Marvel Lad for Valor. He was called that at one point right? Brown costume or something? Waid didn't put that in the Who's Who decades ago but it was the in Trophy Room in the issue Tinya shows the reporter around.

Also what about Dev-Em? Always liked him. Super Kid? doh!

jorge

Hi Everyone - yet another big 'thanks' for all the kind words and support!

I do agree the cover colors are too muted - but it'll look quite different in it's finished form - I hope

I really don't know what else I can say to the guys who don't want this 'reboot' - the fact is we were asked by DC if we would like to take the reins for a major relaunch of Legion - which we did - if it wasn't us it'd be someone else - and I can't really apologize for it being me... I'm honored to be involved as long time Legion fan!

To all the folks who've been so kind about my artwork - I do really appreciate it! For those who haven't liked it in the past - I'll try to keep improving and win you over.

BTW I am happy to discuss the thinking behind the new look etc....tempered a little by trying not to give too much away about the stories! I will be posting prelim sketches etc as soon as the first issue is out.

i love having a dialogue with creators. thanks for continuing to pop in barry. i found it frustrating when DnA stopped posting on the boards. especially with no letterpages, these boards are all we have to communicate with.
the thing alot of you are forgetting is that if DnA's LEGION was pulling in the readers it wouldn't be being relaunched. no way would DC take a top seller and cancel it and re-imagine it. so if anything, this relaunch/boot/imagining is keeping the adventures of the Legion alive."well, it's not MY legion!" that's right, yours was cancelled because not enough people liked it as much as you did. it sucks, but it happens all the time, and at this point it's a done deal. why not tell us, and Waid + Kitson, what you all liked about the last 10 years of postboot stories and make a case for it to be added to the mix. i'm curious.

I like it GN but it deserves it's own thread, don't you think? I figure that if we have Barry hostage and willing to answer questions without the usual "softening up" then we really ought to see what we can beg, borrow or steal in the way of "insider" information.

he he

1. Have you ever drawn Dawnstar?

2. Can you possibly expand on "intergalactic knights of the round table"?

edit:
Most excellent! That rocks man!

Hi Gorilla Nebula - Thanks - it's a pleasure to be here! Great points you made too!

Hi YelloWing

Yes I have drawn Dawnstar - first time was in the LSH Annual which was, I think, my second piece of professional work for DC. I've also been asked to draw her quite a few times at conventions. I'll do a version I'm proud of one day!

I'll have a bash at explaining 'The intergalactic knights of the round-table idea' it's that the Legion is gathered together unified by a vision of how things can and should be and a desire to bring that vision about. They may not all agree on the same methods of course, or share quite the same vision though.
Like the knights of the round table they are a band that came together through choice and through a desire to be part of the best group of 'champions' the universe has to offer.
Hope that sort of helps answer the question

Just checking, Barry, but while they're doing all this activism and stuff, they ARE still gonna be super-heroes fighting villain-type people, right?

I hate to spoil a good argument, but WE HAVEN'T SEEN ANYTHING YET! We've got some very general information about concepts, a cover, and little else. Is it possible at all that the finished product might be very different from the assumptions that some of us are making?

Yeah well, but that's only because Bendis is writing half their titles... soon it's going to be "Power Man's Marvel Universe"

Therein lies all I need to know.

And how come the X-Men have any readers left if 10 years of linear continuity is too much...?

X-Men peaked in 1991 with the release of X-Men #1. Since then, it's been waning and waxing, but mainly waning. It is very difficult to jump into any of the books at this point, much moreso than the Lee/Liefeld/Portacio days (and frankly, it wasn't EASY at that point.) All of the main characters have been pimped out for short runs on ongoing series that have mostly been cancelled in their teens or twenties.

The fact that the X-Men is still going strongly in any way is a testament to the tenacity of the fans and the greatness of the concept. However, I would not hold X-Men up as a shining example of continuity at its best, when Lorna Dane pops up with a different personality every panel, Wolverine magically appears in like 90 X-books a month, and like 28 X-Teams all inhabit the mansion, but they never run into each other or collaborate on each other's cases.

The days of the Blue and the Gold teams had its problems, to be sure, but at least you could figure out coherently where each team was and what they were doing in relation to the rest of the mutant corner of the Marvel U.

Reboot, you're preaching to the choir here. I feel your pain. I started reading LSH almost twenty years ago now (all right, all right, 17 years ago!) and have thus suffered through such continuity wrenching experiences as the Mordruverse, The Reboot, and the minor reboot I think of as DnA (the Legion under their hands was a distinct animal, IMO, because they thankfully let a lot of dangling plotlines drop--then created a whole bunch more dangling plots...). I still feel regret and sadness every time I reread the final pages of Zero Hour. I still feel frustrated and cheated by the lame-ass excuse of "too much continuity for new readers." It's such a freaking load of hooey. Say what you want about Marvel, and I could say a lot that isn't flattering, but I've never felt as condescended to as a loyal reader as I feel when DC trots out another Silver Age archives or Silver Age action figure, when they've retroactively shitcanned those stories.

That being said, I'm sorry, but I find it hard to feel much regret over saying goodbye to a flawed era. I'll see what I can take from this version, just like I have before. I'll wait to decide until I have the comic in my hot little hands.

To the people like Reboot and Pex, hey, I feel your pain. My Legion from another era was taken away too. I think every Legion fan has had it happen to him now, some more than others. Yet it is the Legion of Super Heroes that I enjoy. Some creators more than others have made it more enjoyable, but it is the characters, the concept of the Legion, and it's sense of wonder and anything is possible that had me hooked. Ijust hope at some point you are able to come to terms with the reality of the situation in a positve way, and not give up something you perhaps love. The Legion in many ways becomes an extended part of family. YOu care what happens to them good or bad, and support them no matter what...

Re: The X-Men

The OTHER comic I've been collecting for seventeen+ years. I truly believe you could make a MUCH stronger case for useless continuity with that title than any other. They should have rebooted when Claremont left. Every Tom, Dick, and Harry who've written any obscure corner of the X-verse has tried to put his "stamp" on the title, resulting in a confusing array of titles, deaths, rebirths, alternate futures, alternate pasts, groups, bases, villains, ad nauseum.

In contrast, the preboot Legion had one frigging little pocket universe, and an alternate history that was put to rest in v2 issue 300. So screw you, DC.

Uh oh, see? This is your brain on reboots....

I'm guessing they don't all _have_ to have the boy/girl/lad/lass/kid think in their names. After all, we already know Brainiac 5 is probably going to become a member at some point. That leaves room for Dev-Em, Mon-El, Quislet, and Tellus if need be.

I can't help but think that those of you who have stated that they will never pick up the new series are just cutting off your noses to spite your faces. You haven't even seen an issue yet, so perhaps you should reserve judgment. What if you actually like it when it comes out - then you're going to have to sneak out in the middle of the night to buy it, in order to save face.

Also, statements that you won't support the new creators seem to be nothing more than sour grapes. Just wait and see. If you don't like it when it comes out, that's fair - don't buy it.

And that is why I haven't completely given up on X-Men, despite the Morrison run, which I pretty much despised. As a matter of fact, it was during the Morrison run that I turned to Legion for solace, and found a vast new playground that was fun to read, something X-Men hadn't been for quite some time (even before Morrison took over...)

I stayed out of loyalty to and love for the characters. That's the main reason I'm willing to give the new LSH a shot. Even though the characters are not necessarily the same ones I grew to love, I may enjoy Legion 3.0 if it turns out to be a good read. It won't replace my Legion, but hopefully it will be a Legion I can be proud to know, just like its immediate predecessor was (and to a lesser extent, the original Legion...I like it too, I just don't have the attachment to it that I do to the PostBoot incarnation).

Yep. But hey - I'm good at that & stubborn enough to carry it through. I won't be reading it. [I dropped Exiles when they got rid of Blink (when she came back & they got a writer whose name wasn't Chuck Austen, I gave it a shot, but didn't go back).]

To use an anology - if someone came, killed off your whole family, then gave you a new "family" who looked & acted similarly, would you treat this "family" as if they were your real family?

I don't think so.

Thanks for IDing the characters on LSH #1's cover, Barry. I'm looking forward to the new book (while simultaneously missing things from the 'old' run, already)-- I just wish it was starting in OCT!

Now... can you tell is if the characters appearing on the cover also answer to these names? (They're listed in the order you provided several pages of this thread back):

Imra Ardeen, Dirk Morgna, Nura Nal, Thom Kallor, Tasmia Mallor, Rokk Krinn, Jan Arrah, Tinya Wazzo, Projectra Regina, Querl Dox, Jo Nah, Reep Daggle and Val Armorr.

Thanks for the info and your generous participation here... I hope you stick around for the entire run!

Todd

Does anyone else think it's ironic that people are complaining because a comic set in the future doesn't stay the same as it was in the past? I think insisting that it be the same Legion he knew (especially now, years after the last reboot) is carrying it to the ultimate extreme.

I'm holding out until I read it, but I have to say I'm pretty excited. Waid rocks!

I've seen the error of my ways

Bazza! I loved your work on Judge Anderson 20 years ago!

Now, can everyone vote for me please? I'm about to become the Legion World leader y'know!

a) As I've said, I don't give a frelling damn about the preboot stuff. It's before my time, and if they debooted to sometime preboot, I'd react exactly the same way.

b) I've fine with evolutionary change. Logical change. Revolutionary throw-logic-along-with-everything-and-the-kitchen-sink-out-the-window change, not so.

Your sincerity bring tears to my eyes.

Reboot and Cosmic King, believe me, I know exactly what you're going through. When the V.4 version of the Legion started, I stopped buying after two issues because it wasn't "my" Legion. But, because I love the Legion I came back and picked up the run during the Quiet Darkness and got hooked.

Then when the whole shebang was getting rebooted I again quit in disgust after a few short issues. But, needing my Legion fix, I was back within a year and hooked again when the Legion fought the White Triangle.

I quit again after taking one look at Coipel's art in the Legion of the Damned. Thankfully I got back on board with the Legion Lost #3.

It seems whenever I start to identify with a particular era, it gets yanked out from under my feet. I anticipate hating this new Legion at first. I don't want to, but the whole "reimagining" seems to be unneccessary and I don't want it. But I also anticipate eventually enjoying whatever comes next. The whole concept sounds iffy and I don't want to start all over with the team again. It's frustrating to see so many of DnA's cool concepts dropped before they are even developed.

But what can you do. I don't think you're going to convince anyone to join you in dropping the Legion if that's your intent. But if I had access to the internet the previous three times my Legion was drastically changed, I would probably be saying the exact same things you guys are.

So vent. Get it out of your system. Let everyone know how pissed you are, because chances are, we've all been there before, too. But don't be surprised if you have to get your Legion fix, try an issue of the new series, and end up liking it.

Such is the misery and joy of being a Legion fan.

Pex, it's so weird, cause I started the Legion right around the time Morrison (HORRIBLE!) came on board the X-Men. I've read X-Men since 1993, only stopping after 14 issues of Morrison's terrible run. I'm back reading the titles, though they're not that great, I still love the X-Men so much, it's hard to consider dropping it for anything less than pure crap.

However, if they decided X-Men were to end and be rebooted (a la the Ultimate X-Men, which suck ass) I'm sure that would be the end of my connection with the X-Men.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions; I was disappointed at first too, but I looked back at the postboot run. There's not a whole lot I'm going to miss-Gates, Kinetix(when she first started), Shikari. I've been reading since the late 70's-I've seen my share of likes and dislikes. Loved the Levitz run esp., and even the start of the 5 year gap stuff. I guess what I'm saying is some Legion is better than no Legion. Some people are saying they're just going to read their back issues and archive stuff-hey this thing is on life support! If the sales weren't stinking it up we wouldn't be here. I've got excited just the past few days just reading these threads. I say good luck to Barry and Mark-just bring back T-wolf!!!! Hee hee:)

I'm excited about this new Legion. Sure, I'm a relative newbie here, I came on with DnA. They made me like the characters, to get excited about their adventures. The Legion lore I've gleaned over the years had made me a bigger fan.

WnKy's new take is really interesting to me. Yes it's a radical departure from what I know. But that makes it different, not bad. Chuck, Star Boy, and Gates are my favourite characters, and it sounds like they're not going to be the same ones I came to enjoy over DnA's run. But I trust Barry and Mark to give me something worth reading.

I'm saying a sad goodbye to the Legion, but an excited hello to the Legion of Super Heroes!

I don't think that could have been said any better CJ!

I'm looking forward to the new series. I've had some issues with Barry Kitson's artwork before but, as I did with Coipel, I will wait for him to find his "look" for the series.

I just hope that we Mark & Barry stay on the book for the long-term. That more than anything is my primary hope.

Can't comment too much on what this re-imagined Legion will be since it hasn't been published yet. However, Legion of Super-Heroes has always been a part of my life and as with all of the changes I've gone through for 32 years of being alive, I'll see what happens in this chapter of the Legion of Super-Heroes.

Barry:

I wish for you all the luck in the world, in this new reboot of my dear Legion.
I have almost all Legion of super-heroes,Legionnaires,L.E.G.I.O.N.,R.E.B.E.L.S.
I lived in many cities in the world Buenos Aires Montevideo,Roselle Park (In New Jersey)and now in Valencia, Spain. And always my comic collection traveled with me.
I must only say, I prefer the adventure era, and the levitz era.
For me The legion it's over in the Magic Wars.
The 5 years gap has too cruel,with so many characters of my heart.
Only remember with a good taste Spider-Girl and the beauty Veilmist.
The archie legion was very crazy, with Snackie, Gates, Gim dead, no Sun Boy,Shikari, Monstress.
You put my 4 favorites legionnaires together again;

Saturn Girl
Projectra
Shadow Lass
Phantom Girl

I'm very happy only for the girls.
But I'm happy too with Sun Boy, Colossal Boy, Element lad.
Don't make Star Boy a black boy, please!
We have others very good guys like Tyroc, Gear,Kid Quantum and Jacques (with different power).
And draw a beautiful Emerald Empress (Not the slender and ugly woman of the post era).
Again, my better wishes for this, my Legion.
Emerald Empress

Say Barry,

Without giving anything away about who will end up in the new series (aside from what's been confirmed), can you say who are your favorite Legionnaires?

Once again thanks guys!

Hi Igee - we certainly hope to be on the book for a long run, we already have very long term plans worked out!

Hi Drake - I'll dodge that question if it's okay - as my opinion is always shifting!

BTW I've finally found my way to the Nura and Lilith's Visionries forum - which is where I guess I should have been answering questions all along - so I'll be checking in there as regularly as I can from now on! Apologies to anyone who asked something there ages ago that I've only just got around to answering!

Well, after reading ALL 20 pages I have come to these conclusions.

Emerald Lass’s post above is almost exactly how I feel about the Legion. Uncanny..........

"I wish for you all the luck in the world, in this new reboot of my dear Legion.
I must only say, I prefer the adventure era, and the levitz era.
For me The legion it's over in the Magic Wars.
The 5 years gap has too cruel, with so many characters of my heart.
The archie legion was very crazy, with Snackie, Gates, Gim dead, no Sun Boy,Shikari, Monstress."...

Wow gotta agree with all that.

Barry Thanks for all the answers and comments!

Has everyone forgotten how great L.E.G.I.O.N was?

Also, DC and rebooting?? Well what about the entire ULTIMATES line? Would the doubters of this new Legion rather have an Ultimate Legion? That would be painful. Just keep it fresh and new, with our old favorites coming together as a group, and it has to be wonderful!

Barry if you can, new villains would go a long way to the liking of the title.

Lastly, I mostly collect for the original art at this point, so I REALLY look forward to seeing the images. After L.E.G.I.O.N, I know that you will not disappoint!

Well good luck, and personally after trudging through the last several years, I am really looking forward to this!

LLLater!

Chad

And losing over ten years of what I consider to be good times and great adventures isn't? Like I said, I'll give the new book a shot, but replacing the Legion I know and love with any other form of Legion, Ultimate or not, is still painful to me, and I reserve the right to mourn the passing of the current continuity.

It's like mourning the death of a spouse...even if you eventually remarry, the new spouse isn't going to completely replace the departed one. You'll grow to love her for herself. Even then, however, you'll think fondly back on your lost love from time to time and wonder what else you might have experienced together if she hadn't been cruelly taken away from you by the winds of change and the passage of time.

Maybe the one-shot will give me a sense of closure, and I'll accept it as being over and done with once I've seen it in print. Even if I can't come to terms with it right away, DC's given me a couple of months to deal before shoving me back out into the dating pool again...

I know that it is indeed gonna be painful for some. In an ideal world we could have both, but with the sales of "The Legion" so flat....Under 25K, they need to do something to keep this title alive. Unfortunately for some, this is horrible as they have invested a lot of time & effort into the reboot team, and have grown to love them.

For others, it is a sigh of relief that we are going back to a more "sane" time..... preboot that is.

Fortunately for you, even with the death of a spouse, you are still alive and get the chance to hit the scene again with some familiar people next to you.

On a final note, I wish though that the Titans/Legion crossover would be with the Waid/Kitson team, as that might help more on the crossover to attract more Legion folk!

LLLater!

Chad

One thought on the reboot:
While Legion fans have had to deal with a lot of contintuity changes and soft-boots as well as the big hard boot, I think we should consider ourselves fortunate in one way -- a lot of other titles firmly planted in the DC universe (Doom Patrol being the big exception) have had similar changes and overhauls in hopes of increasing sales, but since the Legion has their own self-contained corner of the DCU, DC has chosen the reboot route, keeping mostly the same characters and code names rather than what they would do in the regular DCU, which is kill off the old cast or bring in a totally new lineup etc...

Look at most other titles, or team books -- JLA, Doom Patrol, Teen Titans etc ... they've had periods of "re-imagining" where they totally replaced the lineup, or (like Green Lantern) killed off the main character when they wanted to make changes and bring in new readers. At least The Legion in all its incarnations have tried to keep to the same beloved characters and changed their universe as opposed to being stuck in the current DCU and having to replace the cast since they wouldn't be able to overhaul continuity.

Uh, sorry, but the Ultimate universe has not replaced the regular Marvel Universe. ULTIMATES, ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN, ULTIMATE X-MEN, etc. co-exist with AVENGERS, AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, UNCANNY X-MEN, etc.

And like I said, if the Ultimate Universe replaced rather than co-existed with the Marvel U, I think I would stop reading X-Men (especially since I can't stand the Ultimate X-Men at all!)

Nope.

I still hope that some day we can see them back in some form. Maybe if the new Legion and the Adam Strange mini really take off, we'll see it.

Sorry. No offense. That is the worst analogy that I can possibly think of. Comparing the slaughter of my wife and daughter (or anyy of our loved ones) to a bunch of fictional characters being "re-booted" is sick and wrong.

Come on folks, we'll get through this together. It's been said how much us older fans miss our older Legion, how much the DnA fans miss the reboot Legion already and now you see we're in the same space life boat together.
Kinda sucks but we got through it and we'll help you lot get through it too...if you let us.

-Look at poor Dev-Em, his favorite character doesn't even exist at the moment (the Mad Daxamite was a poor substitute but at least he was around)-

At least we don't seem to have the beginning of the series filled with dead and mutilated Legionnaires ala Giffen's relaunch.

First of all:
Barry, nice of you to keep posting. I'll be on board for the re-launch.
I'm of the opinion that any Legion is better than no Legion.
My Legion ceased to exist with the soft boot in the early issues(#4?)of the TMK run. I enjoyed the rest of that run though, and cringed when the re-boot happened at zero hour. The closest I've ever come to dropping the book was during the "Archie Legion" in the twentieth century phase. But,I kept with it and DnA came along and the Legion was alive again.
My Legion still exists in my back issues and I can read them whenever I want.
This new version sounds different so I'll be there to see what happens.
As to the "re-imagining" debate?
I'd rather try this than another re-boot.
Sometimes, you have to try something different.
Remember, if the editors at DC hadn't done some "re-imagining" back in the late fifties-early sixties there would have been no silver age.
Just how I feel.
-Brian

Magnitude. The anology compares concepts.

Of-frelling-course mass-murder would be of a far, far greater magnitude.

I'd prefer it if DC told everyone that this reboot was a kind of "Ultimate Legion". Then, when things don't work out or when Waid leaves in two years, we can go back to the old series. At least then we'd get to see Gates again!

And - no offense to anyone - has anyone re-read LEGION recently? I read the whole thing over again a couple of weeks ago and it was just a bit blah. Some of it was OK, but lame brained stuff like actually introducing a character called Bgtzl and having him "seed" Tinya's homeworld 1000 years in the past was just a load of rubbish.

It's been a long while since I reread L.E.G.I.O.N. and R.E.B.E.L.S. but I certainly remember them being favorites at the time. Gawd, I loved all the in-fighting and drama! You could really only count on Phase, Strata and Captain Comet... you never knew if Dox, Lobo, Stealth or Lady Quark were gonna shoot you in the back... and the Emerald Beks... great stuff.

I really hope we see Dr. Mayavale in the newest reboot! Mark Waid is a big Silver Age Legion fan. How about it? Barry? Are you reading this?

Doctor Mayavale:
BRING HIM BACK!!!

The good Doctor recently made a big splash in Matter-Eater Lad: The Series!

Mayavale WILL RETURN!!!!

More thoughts.

First off I've been reading since 1983. I have not followed every version of the Legion. In 1989 when the 5 years gap story started I hated it. I was a very upset 14 year old. But it was so darn good I couldn't really stay upset my old Legion was gone. Even with the postzerohour Legion i didn't like it until 2001. I hope this is so good I have no option to like it.

Regarding the ULTIMATES. The Ultimates are just a glorified Elseworlds while the main title runs normally. If DC decided to name Waid/Kiton's Legion Ultimate Legion while keeping DnA/Batista on the regular Legion I would be very happy.

And finally Mayalave? He was a genetic engineer correct? Would love to see that back. I remember the big orange guy with four arms, etc.

Jorge

Destroying and slaughtering every character in the Marvel and DC universes would still be nowhere near the murder or death of any of our loved ones.

You're comparing fictional characters to real live people. There is no comparison.

If you compared it to James Bond...wait! They have replaced the actor that has played Jamed Bond several times...some have worked better than others. And just about everyonbe I know has a favorite (or "their") Bond.

Replacing Tony Stark in Iron man with the teenage Tony didn't go over well, and they retconned that. So who knows what will happen.

But comparing the murder of loved ones to comic book characters is not a good thing...there no balance of "magnitude" difference in your analogy between FICTIONAL characters and my 4 year old little girl. Totally different. Nothing can even compare the two.

Dove, he's not saying that fictional characters are more important. Any person with even half a degree of sanity knows that. He is NOT saying they're more important.

But as often happens with fictional characters, people become attached to them, sometimes even coming to regard them as a second family (Obviously still of less importance than any real person, even a person you might despise).

Thus, when a fictional character you care about dies or is changed beyond all hope of repair, you might conceivably feel a sense of loss, sadness, or perhaps, if you really liked the character, even a bit of despair, just as you would if a real person had died.

This isn't a slight toward real people, and no one is claiming that fictional characters are in any way more important than a real person. All that is being said is that losing a fictional person you care about can elicit some of the same sorts of emotions that we experience when we lose real people we care about.

Obviously, if it were a real person, I'd like to think we all would feel a much greater remorse and sadness and despair than for the loss of...say...Kinetix. The emotions for real people can and should exist on a far greater level of power and intensity, but that doesn't mean that we can't feel those emotions at all for fictional characters as it might cheapen the emotions we have for real people.

Can you honestly say that you've never been moved emotionally by the plight of a fictional character? That you've never been saddened by the death of one? That you weren't overjoyed when things work out for the characters you enjoy reading about? If you have done any of these things, then you should know that the joy or depression you feel at fictional events is a dim mirror of the joy you felt as your daughter took her first steps, or the despair when your daughter was sick and you knew there was nothing you can do for her. Again, even though it's a dim mirror,it is still a mirror, and by connecting on an emotional level with fictional characters, we can learn more about said emotions and how they relate to our interactions with others.

At least you realised what I meant...

Point is, if you're not attached to the characters in serial fiction, why read/watch/listen to it? And if they're all just going to be thrown out and replaced with similar-but-different characters, why SHOULD I give a damn about the similar-but-different characters, when they're not the ones I'd grown attached to?

Hey, I've seen a lot of silver age fans seeing this new legion as a restoration of their favorite lsh era. I'm just curious what, besides the old school names and lack of a snake, makes you think that the new series will resemble old school legion any more than it will the reboot?

From what I've read it seems more likely to be a pretty unique animal than a restoration of the Adventure era. I mean an indie rock legion raising hell and seeking adventures because the UP is too boring? Doesn't sound like the Moby Dick of Space to me.

I think you're absolutely right, Cad. Although I'm excited about the new legion, and the return of some of my favorite silver age characters, I don't for a moment delude myself that this is going to be a return to the Legion of my childhood. (And that's probably a good thing, because what interested me as a child, strangely doesn't grab me as an adult. Weird, eh? ) What I'm really excited about, is an end to the past era. I found the stories boring, and the characters only partially realized. There were so many fits and starts and subplots left hanging, never to be resolved. It was just hard to care anymore. I liked Gates (the best thing from the current era) and thought Shikari and Gear had a lot of unrealized potential. Other than that, I won't miss a thing.

I mean, really...with so many characters, we really *can't* get to "know" individual characters as we can with books with much smaller casts. (And even then, half the time we have throw out half of what we "know" depending on what direction later writers take.) So in LSH fandom, we latch onto the snapshot glimpses we get of each character during the little panel time they get. Those glimpses, by and large, offer us little more than the concept of the character. Therefore, for most of Legion fandom, we are attached to the concept of the character somewhat more than the character itself.

I'm getting that same vibe - that this will be fresh & new -- it's why I'm excited about the new series (admittedly, I wince at Waid's stale description, 'indie rockers seeking adventures across the stagnant utopian UP' or somesuch).

Take one look at that cover and you KNOW it's not any of the 30th centuries we're familiar with. I was impressed with Kitson's initial designs (and I'd LOVE to see the rest, BARRY -- AHEM -- email is fine & NATURALLY I'd keep it confidential! ). While the 'look' is reminiscent of superhero tights, it's just as likely that each person is wearing stuff that's culturally or personally important. (Sure, Element Lad appears a trifle Ren-Fair Mr. Wizard-y, but I suspect there's cause for that too.)

I'm hoping this tiny peek into their vision opens the way for bigger things, faster changes, fuller lives than what we've been getting in Legion.

Where did you get this idea, Rurouni? Ferro was underconfident, shy and a bit of a dim bulb, but there was nothing that suggested self-hatred to me.

People who hate themselves usually can't build and maintain relationships, yet Ferro was shown doing this on numerous occasions. He reached out to the others by redesigning costumes for them (none of them liked his designs, except Inferno, but at least he tried). He became friends with Triad and had enough self-respect to break off that friendship when she confessed that part of her thought he was stupid. He bonded with Karate Kid.

It is true that Ferro hated his appearance -- his misshapen face beneath the mask -- and tried to change it. But that's different from hating oneself.

I'm still in oblivious sticker shock though!! 40 pages of story and art for $3.00?? Is that right?? Or is the book 40 pages instead of 32 pages TOTAL with a few more pages of story and art?? Can someone clarify this for me?? If it's the latter then how many more pages of story and art will there be?? Maybe 30 pages total?? That would be really cool!!

Really looking forward to this event regardless!!

30 pages of story and art I think is what Barry said somewhere in one of these threads. With 10 more pages in the book I'm praying they'll add a letters page and special features like Who's Who entries or short backup stories.

I think we can rule out a letters page. Isn't it strict DC policy these days that their own forums have "replaced" the letters pages in terms of function and importance? I disagree with said policy, but I believe it is still in force, unfortunately...

On the other hand, I think Barry has hinted (though I could be wrong) that there will be back-up stories on occasion...

I *really* wish they'd bring back the text page features-- both 'fictional' and 'informational'.

I loved their inclusion in the 5YL issues. Some of the material was questionable in quality, but their usage wasn't.

Besides being a great way to explore characters' viewpoints and histories, they'd have the added bonus of 'freeing' up (at least for a page or two each month) Barry and/or whatever artists end up working on LSH.

TEXT PAGES... STET! STAT!

Consider this another vote for the reader-elections. C'mon... this is a storied part of Legion tradition!

AND a perfect vehicle for cross-promotion on the DC website.

Todd

Gotta disagree with this idea CK. History is full of people naming cities, provinces, even entire lands after themselves, or having other do that for them. Off the top of my head, I can think of "North and South Rhodesia, Victoria in Australia, the Victoria Falls, New York, (named after the Duke of York, not the northern city) Pennsylvania, Carolina, Virginia, need I go on, Hell even America itself is named after a person.

So why not name a planet after a person?

In fact I am surprised that we don't see more places in Legion Lore named after Valor as seeder of many worlds.

This fan of Silver-Age Legion doesn't see the reimagining as a return to the Silver Age, but instead sees the unlimited possibilities and chances to right past wrongs.

Chief among these right off the bat, for me: the return of Projectra, Sun Boy and Colossal Boy.

I
realized" what you were after as well...I just thought the comparison to loosing one's family as opposed to loosing characters that are in comics was off base. To me there is absolutely no comparison between the two.

I'm hoping the new series blends the best of its predecessors.

For example, I'm thrilled we're getting Sun Boy and a human Projectra back.

But I hope we ALSO see post-Zero Hour characters like Gates and Shikari (although I'd enjoy seeing Dawny as well. No reason why they can't co-exist.).

I'm really hoping this series is NOT a complete re-boot and that longtime fans don't have to sit through yet ANOTHER modern take on a classic Silver Age Legion tale. Live Wire/Lightning Lad losing his arm? Been there and done that - TWICE.

Rather, I hope Mark and Barry continue the history that we've seen in the last series, and update the concepts. The new "Colossal Boy" should know about Leviathan/Gim Allon, and understand the tradition he's gotta follow.

And if Mark and Barry wanna shuffle the cliques and relationships, and redefine why the Legion exists, be my guest.

- the Kid

That's too bad. As a kid it was one of the most important parts of my comic book experience. The Legion's letters pages brough us together as fandom instead of just being a bunch of fans.
Now when I reread the old issues of Adventure, Action and Superboy I always read the letters pages too. Letters from creators when they were just fans too are extremely cool.

This is a valid argument, though, to be fair, personalities did develop for most Legionnaires over time, both pre- and postboot. We got to know their back stories, meet their families, and watch them grow during several eras.

Many times, even the glimpses into their personalities were priceless and told us everything we needed to know. One of my favorite examples is Leviathan discarding his headpiece when one of the girls criticized it. This offered a wonderful counterpart to the by-the-books drill sergeant mentality he had been shown to possess. At heart, Gim was a softie who wanted to impress girls (or one in particular), as most teenaged boys do. How different this is than seeing him as just the guy who grows tall.

I'm... excited.

I thought I'd be as upset as Reboot about starting the series over again. Maybe it's because I got so attached to the postboot despite discovering the LSH during the Levitz era. Or maybe I'm just high on cold medication.

I think I'll take the solicitation to class tomorrow and see what the manga fans think.

It'll be interesting to hear their responses, please do!

Holy schmoley! Eight Xtra pages!!

This is incredibly good news My main gripe post-boot has been that the issues read like pamphlets, even when compared to v2 or v3. 8 extra pages will do nicely!!!!

Also, w/ regard to the concern of Cad Lad and others about the described direction ("indie rock Legion"), I think this is a red herring...they're going to decribe the new LEgion in the most intriguing way possible, but in doing so they have likely exaggerated what are only slight leanings of the book, or they are describing only an initial storyline that will change rapidly. I don't really think it will be as it sounds...

Also, w/ regard to the concern of Cad Lad and others about the described direction ("indie rock Legion"), I think this is a red herring...they're going to decribe the new LEgion in the most intriguing way possible, but in doing so they have likely exaggerated what are only slight leanings of the book, or they are describing only an initial storyline that will change rapidly. I don't really think it will be as it sounds...[/QB][/QUOTE]

Umm, I'm actually not that concerned by the whole 'indie rock' thing. The more I think about it the more potential I see in the new concept. I'll actually be far more disappointed if the book isn't radically different in its approach after all this rigamorle.

Coz it was just too much of a "cutesy" issue. And with all the "seeding" going on over in Legion it seemed a bit lazy to have the same thing going on in LEGION.

Aside from the fact that in all the "seeding" stories the writers seem to think 30 people can populate a whole planet in 1000 years.

It might be "cutsie" (and i am not sure i agree about that) but it is what people have done and will, i am sure, continue to do even 1,000 years in the future.

Mind you I also wince a little when "survivor" type sci fi stories have half a dozen survivors restock the human race, either on a new planet or a destroyed earth. Although very small island populations are possible (Pitcairn Island?) I do wonder about the viability of very small breeding populations and such.

now I am sure someone else can do the math better than me but 1,000 years is a long time. We would have to assume that the colonial Government officially encouraged child birth but if we do that. Then we can assume half of your 30 colonists are women. If we say they have a breeding life of 20 years and produce a child every 2 years that gives us 10 children per female. Again we assume 5 of those are Girls (genetic engineering or something like that? hell we can almost do that now)

So in the first generation we get 15 x 5 = 75 new breeding females.

2nd gen 75 x 5 = 375
3rd gen 375 x 5 = 1875
4th gen 1875 x 5 = 9375
5th gen 9375 x 5 = 46,875
6th gen 46,875 x 5 = 234,375
7th gen 234,375 x 5 = 1,171,875
8th gen 1,171,875 x 5 = 5,859,375
9th gen 5,859,375 x 5 = 29,296,875
10th gen 29,296,875 x 5 = 146,480,000

Now that's just females. and 10 generations is only 300 years or so. So i think 1,000 years may actually be long enough to put a viable planetary population in place.

OK I know i have made a lot of unsupported and unsupportable assumptions regarding unlimited breeding and that in reality people will not have that many children generation after generation. But then I also have not factored in immigration etc. But when you just add up like that, the capacity for the human race to overrun a planet like a virus is quiet frightening.

And yes, its lunch break and I'm bored

But, see, this is why Levitz's Legion is so beloved by fans from that era. Levitz knew that the team was too big to allow effective characterization if he used them all at once, so he didn't. He used small teams of 4-6 Legionnaires and spent an issue or two focusing on those teams. That way, each character got sufficient page time in an issue to acheive some character development.

My biggest hope for the new series is that Waid follows the same pattern, or one like it, and so develops his characters as he advances the plot.

Amen to the "no re-hashing" statement, CreativityKid. I do NOT want to see any pages wasted on the "retelling the Fatal Five story" or "Garth loses an arm" that we saw in the beginning of the last reboot. Blech.

Waid indicated he's not inclined to rehash past events but character personalities and tendencies will remain intact. So, for example, Star Boy will still be a "hard luck" guy but it remains to be seen how his bad luck will play out this time.

Although - to play Devil's Advocate here - We haven't seen Starboy get kicked out of the Legion and that could be a helluva cool story with Mark writing it this time around. I wonder what he thinks of the Luck Lords? (I didn't really like the giant-eyeballs-on-a-stick version)...or The Wanderers and the contest for a champion for an interdimensional princess?
oooo...I'd love to see Kitson's Wanderers...

On a positive note, the doomed aspect of certain characters was done away with in #300 when Shadow Lass survived the disaster at the Science Asteroid. That means if we get Chemical King back or if Quantum Queen shows up they're not fated to die from the moment they first appear on panel.

Us older fans that grew up with the Silver Age aren't looking at this as a return to it at all. Personally I think the return of Ferro Lad finally laid that ghost to rest. I'm looking at it as a potential mix of all the Legions and if Mark has to expand the roster to a hundred Legionnaires to make it all fit then I'm good with that.
_________________________________________________

SCA legion? What worries me is the role playing aspect of the mideivalists. Does this mean it's a costume group? Role players as part time Legionnaires acting out their Justice league fantasies?

Oh, fine, so now they gone mess wit' the BLACK man! Typical!

Wow! Nice maths work there! I did wonder when I posted, so thanks sorting that out!

Isn't that a typical science fiction and horror trope? The black character is usually doomed. I think PITCH BLACK was the 1st science fiction movie that DIDN'T kill off the black people (hell, I was cheering that the 2 black people and a drag king survived!).

The general response was "cool". With one saying it reminded him of the X-Men. (I'm almost certain he was just referring to the art style.)

I hope Atom Girl becomes the next leader of the Legion Espionage Squad!

Yeah. I call it the Black Vacumm Law of Science Fiction: "Any black character in a sci-fi/fantasy/horror film stands a single-digit chance of surviving to the end." It's almost as reliable as the "Walking Dead Tripping Co-ed."

Even Legion is not immune: its first casualty Ferro Lad, if Jim Shooter had been allowed to make him so, would've been black. TMK made sure to retcon in a black casualty, which was held to in the Waid-written reboot mythos.


And now we got a black Star Boy likely to be chasin' after the oh-so-ultra-white Dream Girl just like a mentally colonized Uncle Thom!!!!!!

I smells a conspiracy here. C-O-N...spiracy! I'M OUTTA HERE, WHITEY/GREENY/BLUEY/ORANGEY/ETC.!

(All that black radical revolutionary rhetoric I heard in college makes for some funny posting...)

UNCLE THOM!!!!!!!!!!



talk about irony! that's hysterical (in a borderline 'not so funny' way

Not sure if this is old news, but Waid and Kitson's LSH relaunch got the cover on the new Previews. Nothing beyond what we already "know" on the inside, no spoiler art... but it's still a little jarring to see some kind of push on a Legion book, y'know?

The movie "Deep Blue Sea" payed homage to this Law. The comic relief black character (LL Cool J)kept bemoaning his fate saying he would be the next to go. And if the movie had been totally formulaic, the beautiful woman (Saffron Burrows) and blond buff heroic Thomas Jane would have been the survivors. As it was, refreshingly, Thomas Jane and LL Cool J were the pair that survived.

Here's the ad for the crossover running through a few of this weeks books:

My biggest fear with this reboot is that Waid will forget how linked XS and Impulse are to the 30th century. I don't want to see Flash effected because of this. Yes, including XS as a legionaire, even if she is not used too often, is most likely enough to fix the problem before it occurs. But will Waid remember to do so?

And given Identity Crisis, I'll bet Bart is happy his cousin is 1000 years in the future where she is safe from whoever is hunting the heroes families.

Wildcard that is the tough part. I love seeing the little connections between the past (20/21 century) and the future 30th/31st century.

BUT it has led to so many problems that I rather just avoid these cute connections. Sadly DC does this all the time. "Hey guys these connections are getting crazy and complicating everything. It's fun but we need to cut bait."

But a few years go by...some people get bored...some people think of cute connections with little ramifications if any...and add them again.

Thing is down the line it can cause problems. A butterfly flaps it's wings and it can change the future and all of that.

Hypertime is a great way to avoid this...but then it might get complicated for the Legion.

I like the Flash/Tornado Twins and XS/Impulse alot...even more than the Superboy connections of the past. BUT if Waid/Kitson decide to keep this Legion self contained? I say good idea!

Jorge

Another thing...RJ Brande. I would love to see him really be Captain Comet! Great silver age sci-fi stuff just like Legion...infact maybe he should have been the inspiration for the Legion and just have stayed in the future.

Or RJ be Jonn Jonzz, etc. But in hindsight maybe RJ should just be RJ. Less cool but less headaches. And what worries me is Waid and stuff like Birthright. ohwell. I'm done doubting...just hoping for the best.

Jorge

Always better to expect the worst. 'Cause, more often than not, that's what yer gonna get. 'Specially in this scenario.

You are my sunshine, my only sunshine. You make me happy when skies are gray!

Borg,
I think Captain Comet is going to be dealt with in the new 'Adam Strange' mini.
Along with L.E.G.I.O.N. and Darkstars.

As a big fan of the whole Impulse/Xs thing (along with reboot characters like Gates and Kid Quantum) I have adopted a mantra: 'just because they are not in the first six issues does not mean they won't appear (take a deep breath and repeat).'

I really want them to keep this particular tie to the 21st century but I will be paitent if it takes a while for the Allen's to show up in the new timeline.

And I thought my powers made me depressing

I've got my fingers crossed, third times the charm right?

Actually, third times the Cham...

Hope for the best, plan for the worst, and realize it's somewhere between the two.

"Hope For The Best, Expect The Worst"

Hope for the best,
Expect the worst;
Some drink champagne,
Some die of thirst!
No way of knowing
Which way it's going;
Hope for the best, expect the worst!

Hope for the best,
Expect the worst;
The world's a stage,
We're unrehearsed!
Some reach the top, friends,
While others drop, friends!
Hope for the best, expect the worst!

I knew a man
Who made a fortune that was splendid,
Then he died
The day he planned to go and spend it!
Shouting: "Live while you're alive!
No one will survive!
Life is sorrow
(Here today and gone tomorrow)!
Live while you're alive,
No one will survive,
There's no guarantee!"

Hope for the best,
Expect the worst;
You could be Tolstoy
Or Fanny Hurst!
So take your chances,
There are no answers!
Hope for the best, expect the worst!

{instrumental break}

I knew a man
Who made a fortune that was splendid,
Then he died
The day he planned to go and spend it!
Shouting: "Live while you're alive!
No one will survive!
Life is funny!
Save your money! Save your money!
Live while you're alive,
No one will survive,
There's no guarantee!"

Hope for the best,
Expect the worst;
The rich are blessed,
The poor are cursed!
That is a fact, friends:
The deck is stacked, friends!
Hope for the best, expect the -
Even with a good beginning,
It's not certain that you're winning!
Even with the best of chances
Fate can kick you in the pantses!
Look out for the,
Watch out for the,
Worst! Hey!

Lyrics by Mel Brooks;
Music Traditional, arrangement by Mel Brooks and John Morris.
From the film The Twelve Chairs.

L.E.G.I.O.N. will make an appearance, I believe, but nothing was specifically said about Comet.

I can't believe we are 24 pages into this and not one person has expressed regret that Luornu is not listed among the definite returnees.

Lu was the 1st/2nd legionnaire to join the team (with Tinya) after the founders in both the pre and post boot eras. She deserves to be there.

In the current Titan cross-over tale, Lu is not on Legion world when it blows up - which is encouraging. She is with the rest of the Legionnaires who have already made the cut - K Kid, Umbra, Dreamer, Star Boy, Brainy, etc... Hopefully this bodes well for her future.

That being said, I am looking forward to the new book and love that Projectra is back (along with the silver age codenames). I loved L.E.G.I.O.N.
but the preview cover is looking at little to Brainy-centric. Hopefully, the new title won't revolve around the Dox dynasty - you've done that before and it was great but I'd like to see someone else take a prominent position this time around.

Well I just think Mon should appear.Lu is a great character but if Waid really wants to he could have already retired her and Bouncing Boy but they're to good for that

is it futile to hope for my favorites, like Ferro, Tenz, Condo, and Devlin? Condo and Devlin are a stretch, I know, but I'll be saddened if Tenz and Andy aren't there...

I believe it was said in Baltimore that Ferro Lad will show up "eventually". Nothing more specific than that. The others weren't mentioned.

Oh that's good to hear. I love Andy and he's a great character if given a chance (Like his SW6 incarnation: a near suicidal, self-hating swashbuckler )

I think Waid could do wonders with Condo as well. Talk about someone whose powers were never exploited until the day they (senselessly) killed him off!

Indeed! If you think about it, everything in the universe is a chemical reaction. With Condo's power written properly, he could go toe-to-toe with Element Lad or Wildfire for the prestigious Hossest Legionnaire Award.

Oh, and random black guy on cover. Possibly Kid Quantum? in almost every reboot or timeline, James Cullen was never given that much of a shot...

I totally believe Wade would make Condo the powerhouse he should be. He may have to give him a disability to keep that power in check, like I did in role-playing him. I still believe that Condo was more powerful than even Jan. *runs and hides from the Jan Fan Club*

hehe, run and hide! But it is true...I believe, anyhoo...

So what's Deadpool got to do with anything?

*imagines What If Deadpool wrote the Legion, and cancels that thought very quickly*

My current guess is that it's Star Boy.

Um it is Star Boy.

Kitson has confirmed that it's Thom.

Check page five or so of this thread for confirmation on who's who! Lots of classics right in front of our eyes on that cover, even if one doesn't immediately recongize everyone.

Cool.

I was going by hints Waid dropped in Baltimore. Hadn't seen Barry's confirmation.

Most of all, I would like to thank Mr. Kitson for posting here.

Secondly, let me echo someone's earlier post and say that I am absolutely thrilled that my four most all-time favorite Legionnaires made the cut for the initial team (Cos, Sun Boy - [HOORAY! Gone too long], Dream Girl and Element Lad).

I loved much about the DnA era, but I am very much looking forward to the WaK era.

Hope, a core value of the best Legion eras, springs eternal.

Is it definite that Vi will appear or is it possible that a shrinking character just a rumour among the other characters?

And there's no confirmation on T-Wolf either. It's going to be a long few months.

The more I hear about the new series, the more freaked out I am. At first I was really excited about the series, but after being let down by Waid's Birthright, I am getting a lot of bad feelings about this. I love Kitson's art...always have since the L.E.G.I.O.N. series, but my faith in Waid's writing has been shaken. I may just be nervous, but I sat through the reboot, and I really just don't want to sit through another series that may be rebooted the next time TPTB have a whim.

I *liked* Birthright!

And I don't think you can have a Legion without ties to the 20th/21st Century. First of all because of M'Onel, who is an essential character to any incarnation of The Legion of Super-Heroes. I'll gladly wait a few months to see him if his intro story is told in an excitingly new, yet familiar way. Remember that he helped establish most of the early colony worlds I look forward to a whole new chance for the Legion to meet the 20th Century heroes. If nothing else, keep Jenni around (don't wipe Bart's cousin out of continuity!), show M'Onel, and I guess them might have to address Ferro and which team the 20th century heroes met.

Personally, I'd like to see Superboy visit at some point, at least in a way similar to in the early postboot. It's going to be confusing, believe me. Who thought the clone (I always liked him) would outlive an two incarnation of the Legion when they introduced him?

I think a hermetically sealed 31st Century comic where they only know of the 21st Century heroes through history is boring and sad. Superboy, Valor, XS, Ferro, meeting Superman and the others in the lie of duty... these things make it extra fun. It establishes the Legion as a prominent team in the DC Universe(as opposed to Power Company). I'm an anal-retentive fan, so I love tie-ins and crossovers, so long as the Legionnaires are written in character and continuity. And so long as the story is pretty good.

I even enjoyed the Team 20 story in LSH, though it dragged on. But one problem for me was that it was a random selection from the team, so we missed out on a lot of other possible events with regards to team members' interactions with the 20th century. Ayla was a highlight of that story for me. Personally I'd like to see M'Onel on a team that goes to the 21st century, and of course he will go back with the team at the end and not stay around and release his past self because that would ruin it for me. Dream Girl in the 20th Century would be great too. I want to see Vi/Atom Girl meet Atom, Karate Kid and Nightwing, Superman... KARA ZOR-EL... etc. Either the old stories happened or we need new ones. And because character interaction is such an interesting and frustrating thing when there are 20-30 memers of the team, it's good to have smaller teams at once, so the panels can be devoted to that rather than trying to draw everyone in. So if it rotates between teams (like in the old days) we get to see more quality, albeit less quantity. I liked the focus in Legion Lost, and one of my biggest problems with DnA's writing is that they write the characters as plot tools and don't think about the characters' personalities in choosing which of them they have doing what. And it seems like they didn't have a plan to follow through on all of their subplots that we were just HOLDING OUT, *HOPING* would bear fruition. In character-driven subplots, the ending serves to advance the character as much as the story. So why did we waste our time reading the Mekt subplot (although I can say that I didn't buy Legion Worlds #2, probably the first Legion comic I skipped buying since I started reading, and Ayla is one of my top favorites. I do however still need to find one of the books from the LSH/GL crossover, and a few of the appearances in SHOWCASE COMICS especially part two of the Brainaic crossover. Will reward generously.)

By the way, nobody bit on my comment about Atom Girl (Salu Digby... Waid alluded to her being around, but he seemed to be joking)... Hasn't anyone else noticed that the members of the team most prominently missing are the Legion Espionage Squad's core membership, minus Chameleon? I hope we see Lyle, Salu, and Luornu. I think maybe it's Salu's (It will be weird not calling her Vi) turn to lead the squad. We can do without watching her slowly blossom into competence. I think an increased presence of the squad will allow a good way to give them on-panel time without having to worry about them being sometimes out of place in combat. I don't want anything to happen to Lu, and in combat against say the Fatal Five, she's a more statistically likely target.

Finally, I'm for two monthly books, spin-offs, and a Valor miniseries. I hope people buy the reboot, because the lack of sales are the reason DC can't commit to the Legion book like it should. I don't understand people who say they love the characters, but would rather banish them to oblivion than not restore continuity to pre-Zero Hour and probably pre-Magic Wars.

You know I liked Birthright also especially the new Lex.
The new Kara Zor-El shouldn't be tied to this but Lar Gand as Valor or M'Onel or Marvel Lad should be tied to this.In Teen Titans 16 Superboy disappears into the timestream with that Legion no longer existing then he winds up in the new 31st Century.Simple.
So Ferro should also be the 20th Century kid the Legion met and maybe Sister Andromeda can be in this Legion.I know I'm going to buy this Legion because even if Waid gets everything maybe this could work.

Well, I came in postboot, but I would rather banish the LSH to oblivion than see Waid's reboot. Because I love *these* characters. Kinda-sorta-similar-but-not-quite-the-same charcaters with antiquated Lad/Lass names just don't cut it.

Why should support something I despise the concept of, don't like the look of, and don't want to support?? It's not the same continuity, ergo I get a "doesn't matter" note from my doctor.

The Legion is dead to me.

I understand how you feel, Reboot. The 1994 reboot ended up being DC's special little way of ripping the Legion away from my imagination (and thus my purchase power) through their transformation into bizarre bright & smiling zombie cheerleaders of a far less interesting future. No one at DC seemed to understand what made the 30th century work, at least for me, and miming "similar-but-different" events was just painful and got old fast ("no, in this version, XXX doesn't die when we put XXX in the same situation" or "no, in this version, your favorite character is a XXX"), like watching fondly-remembered older actors try to make a comeback by being 'cool' and 'modern' (i.e. starring in an action movie or a romance film with an actor 1/2 their age who miraculously doesn't notice the wrinkles, freckles, stodginess and other age indicators in the senior actor).

I hope Waid has some chops on this (the man did write Kingdom Come and the best Fantastic Four in ages), but when looking at his Birthright sales and his partial responsibility for the 1994 reboot I hated (no offense, folks-who-love-it), it doesn't bode especially well. I think he tends toward consistent hero-driven stories, largely lacking an edge (at least for me). For instance, while I enjoy his Fantastic Four in trades, there aren't any particular moments I return to and think "Whoa, that's amazing/trippy/heart-breaking". Whereas, I was dazzled by, talked about, and proudly showed off the scene in Morrison's JLA where Batman beats Prometheus by reprogramming the villain's nervous system with Stephen Hawking's.

I will say that I am tired of missing the Legion and having to re-read runs of Legion books that have been out of print for over 10 years. I want to find something in DC's future - the 30th century part, at least - worth investing some time, money and imagination in. You hear me, Waid? (Kitson, I have more faith in as a science fiction/adventure/super hero artist.)

I don't know about others, but when I say that DC's mistake is trying to connect the Legion TOO TIGHTLY into DCU monthly continuity, I mean that there's a lot of room between now and 1000 years from now. LOTS can happen and do in frighteningly short time periods - changing the way people think about and act out their lives and histories. In my life, I've gone: from 8-tracks to CDs (not even at MP3 or DAT yet), from Big Wheel play tricycles to Monster Trucks, from 35-cent monthly comics to 3-dollar monthly comics, from Republican to Democrat, from American Midwest kid to global traveller (with the well-worn thoroughly stamped passport to prove it), from crazy party-boy to grad student, from learning how to use the phone to learning how to use the internet and computers, amongst many other changes. That's just me in 32 years; the Earth has gone through more in 100 and will go through uncountable others in 1000 more. Why limit the Legion to what the DCU is today?

Then DC should try to put out a book that sells in the current marketplace. Whether it's because of format (trades vs. monthlies, size, pricing, coloring, etc) or creators lacking name-recognition or crippling editorial policies or shrinking audiences, Legion hasn't ever recovered from the 90s comic sales crash. DC rushed a haphazard reboot 'solution' which never resulted in consistent sales growth.

I like DnA on lots of other books (and only occassionally on Legion), but I have to admit: their other books got cancelled too. They're great on mini-series - brilliant for the most part on those little contained pieces - but their series don't last in the American direct marketplace.

The Diamond list (which, granted, doesn't pick-up Trade Paperback or Manga sales) consistently includes as top-selling writers: Bendis, Millar, Morrison, Straczynski, Loeb, Jenkins, Ellis, Claremont, Rucka, Smith, a few others. If you want a book to go through tremendous growth, then make sure you hire people who have a shot in doing it. In Waid's favor, he & Weiringo have done a spectacular job of doubling Fantastic Four sales. If Legion could match that title, Waid & Kitson would have a hit by DC standards.

I guess the difference to me on whether it's a reboot or not is if they're leaving the door open to returning to the current continuity.

In my mind it's like this... Marvel cancells Daredevil but, a couple months down the line Ultimate Daredevil is scheduled to start up. Ultimate Daredevil is a new comic with no ties to the old continuity but it doesn't wipe out the old continuity, either, and a 616 Daredevil comic could happen.

They won't. They will never, EVER deboot, either to the ZH team, or to any version of the preboot. The most they'd do is reboot yet again to make it more like an earlier version...

The difference with your example (and that precise scenario has actually occured, albeit with Elektra rather than DD) is that tales are still being told in the MU, even if they didn't include "Daredevil." No stories will be being told in the ZH 31st Century.

"Reboot, preboot, deboot, DAS BOOT." Regardless of what happens with the LSH, we'll all be fans. Catch the LSH train guy.

Not all of us - I'm off for good. This & the mess they're making of GL means I'm no longer buying any DC Comics, nor am I likely to in the forseeable future.

Really, this is going a long way to souring me on comics completely...

How come Reboot can post things like this and no one has a go at him? Eh? But if I do it everyone feels they're within their rights to tell me to shut up!

Saying something negative or criticizing IS different than attacking your fellow posters.

NONE of us should attack the other. And if you're going to criticize assume that the person you're critiquing is reading it and have a little respect.

I'm deleting 4 of the above posts here. Pov's first post is gone because even if you disagree with someone's point of view you should never call them a name here. The others are responses to that so they are gone.

Let's all show some respect!

Nightcrawler:

I hope my comment wasn't taken as an attack on Reboot and I very much hope I didn't start anything nasty.

I just wanted to make the point that we all love the Legion and even if we don't like what's currently going on, that doesn't change the love.

Peace and love to all.

QL

what do you pick up, reboot? just curious since we share a lot of cynicism about comics in general, and much of the big 2's shenanigans in particular

That's a creative method of expressing your opinion, Somebody!

For all the excitement I feel regarding the new series, there's also sorrow and some pain that the old one has ended. I felt awful when I read here about Legion World being (possibly) destroyed - and find myself vainly wishing that somehow we could get a happy resolution for Shikari and the old team - some on-going elseworlds or alternate-dimension-Legion series.

Sorry, QL. The post that I'm referring to has been deleted. But, I'd like to keep my post here as a reminder.

Right now? Not much - just a couple of peripheral X-Books (Academy X & MadroX). Every time I get invested in something, it seems to get cancelled or changed beyond all recognition...

Cuz Reboot has always taken the Devil's advocate role here at Legionworld. I haven't taken offense to any of your posts, it's just your opinion.

I will certainly miss the postboot ZH Legion. It gave us some great characters like Gates, Kintiex and XS. However I am willing to give this new Legion a try too. Lets just see what happens in the first year. Maybe they are telling us somethings just to misdirect us. We just ahve to wait and see.

They won't. They will never, EVER deboot, either to the ZH team, or to any version of the preboot. The most they'd do is reboot yet again to make it more like an earlier version...

Seems likely that they would when the series reaches it's final issue if not a success.

Like for example.

(1) V4 isn't gone but lost in the timestream of hyperspace like v4 Brainiac 5 said would happen. The fading was probably them leaving Shikari's view.

(2) There was no indications that the timeline was altered, so Kid Flash's mom would be safe.

(3) Having Shikari enter this other universe shows that they put in a fail-safe, since she has the power to track down the v4 Legion in hypertime and lead them to their home universe, which may happen when the new series reaches it's final issue with help from v5 Brainiac 5 to get her into hypertime.

The new series based on an alterante timeline where things and people are diffrent seems interesting, but I see no longevity in it. It'll probably last for 12 to 22 issue and they'll probably go back to v4 because these reboots aren't acually working.

The Superman comics don't seem effected by Birthright, even by sales, good or bad, and the writers will probably stay away from stories that would show the origin, because it wasn't an acual success.

Right now the series is running on "hype", but with Waid prematurely overestimating the series success and doing a poor job at promoting it in the interviews that sadly make no sense, this version will probably go away for a while and come back as an elseworld limited series from time to time. Waid seems too focued on the "glory" of the heroes, instead of the "reason" of the heroes from the way he described it.

The people running DC may at first been excited by the series, but I think that some of that excitement got replaced by worry and probably had Waid and Kitson do some slight changes before it was too late. Like make v4 still exist and their Legion lost in hypertime, instead of erased, and have Shikari escape because of her tracking powers.

In other words, this unlimited series may end up being a limited series in a way, like Legion Lost, and things will probably soon go back to normal for v4 Legion after Shikari manages to enter hypertime again, find them thru her tracking power, and lead them home.

Cool. The fractured Legion symbol again. I like that a lot. Did you make that?
Coincidentally Somebody, you made it exactly the right size to make an avatar out of...do you mind if it gets added as an avatar selection?

They left it so open, Shikari could have made her way into Levitz Legion era, which was far more commercially successful than the 1994 Reboot.

I totally agree.
While I am a complete Legion geek - and needed to hear SOME reasoning behind the reboot - I should not be the primary target of EVERY interview Waid does (since his interviews are readily available online, it's not logical to think 'every interview is someone's first' like you hopefully consider a comic's monthly series). Waid - as the most high profile of the creators involved - should have different takes on the Legion ready for interviews to attract OTHER readers. Between his 'pull' and DC, he should be able to get on a wider range of popular fan sites (including those devoted to sci fi and fantasy), news sites and magazines to reach each possible reader market, rather than continue appeasing the 15,000 or so avid fans that stick with the Legion regardless (or even the additional 10,000+ readers DnA attracted to the book). To reach each possible market, you have to tailor your messages for them - what about the product will appeal to this particular group, what formats & venues will this product be available in, etc.

A successful marketing campaign should have various events/items rolled-out at key phases to maximize knowledge (and hopefully interest) in the product.

Um, did someone forget to make one of those for Legion?
Again?

Not at all. Here's a few that don't have bits of Dreamer's hair behind them

I've seen the idea that Shikari is a failsafe suggested before, and I don't think it holds water. Here's why:

DC doesn't NEED a failsafe to return the ZH Legion if it so chooses. All they have to do is go back and have Brainy figure out a solution. They can make up anything they like. They don't even need Brainy to do it - some Time Beacon could find them. It's comic book magic.

So since DC can pop back to THAT Legion any time they like, even without ANY involvement of Shikari, she's not a failsafe.

DC doesn't NEED a failsafe to return the ZH Legion if it so chooses. All they have to do is go back and have Brainy figure out a solution. They can make up anything they like. They don't even need Brainy to do it - some Time Beacon could find them. It's comic book magic.

The kind of magic that puts DC in the mess they're in. Brainy may have the brains, but that won't do him any good if he doesn't have the tools. They were forced into hypertime and he didn't have time to prepare. Shikari, with her tracking powers, were they're only hope to get back home and still is.

A good story is based on effort, to create a pattern that the readers can follow and not ask alot of questions about things that make no sense because the writer lacks focus. DC needs a level, a path, to bring back the v4, because the special reminded me of the final issue of the last LSH which led to Legion Lost. A story that was incomplete because it was going to another story which would end with things going back to normal.

The special didn't seem to have an acual ending for v4, if it did, then it was poorly written, and we really don't have the whole story on what v5 is suppose to be. Waid had been saying alot of things without thinking it seems, but he isn't the boss of DC. DC is probably planning for this to be like Legion Lost, but it's Shikari who's lost in an alternate timeline and must find a way back home.

This seems to be like a temporarly gimmick to attract readers who want to know how this will end and if v4 will be saved by Shikari, because of how the special was written. It had a "to be continued" kind of ending that involved v4 who still exist.

Again, DC could come up with dozens of ways to go back to the ZH Legion, without Shikari. So Shikari isn't a failsafe.

The only real failsafe is simply that the ZH Legion still exists at all.

You might not have liked the story - I wasn't thrilled with it myself - but even if DC wants to go back to the ZH Legion, they don't need Shikari to do it. She must serve some other purpose.

So since DC can pop back to THAT Legion any time they like, even without ANY involvement of Shikari, she's not a failsafe.

With all do respect, it "seems" most likely Shikari is a fail-safe because of her powers and why she was picked to escape while the other become lost in hypertime.

We could be wrong, but the theory is pretty sound.

This new v5 Legion is probably not meant to be an acual unlimited series. No matter what Waid says, if anyone can acually make sense of what he said, instead of saying they do because they want him to be right.

Sorry, but I need this here for future reference.

Nothing to apologize for Gary. I'd like to have it around for reference too.

I wonder why Sun Boy looks so great on that cover, but in the group shot he looks like a putz.

It is an irony -- though unintended and perfectly understandable -- that so many fans on this site believe that DC can/should go back to the Zero Hour (ZH) Legion when Waid's effort inevitably fails.

Of course, the very creation of the ZH Legion suggests this CAN'T and SHOULDN'T happen.

After all, the ZH Legion was created after a similar Limbo-like send off to the original Legion of Super-Heroes, which at the time had almost 40 years of history, continuity, and character development under its cape. At the time that ZH happened, I kept thinking that the new Legion was just some flashback and soon we would get the "real" Legion back. Of course, we never did.

Now, we see the passing into Limbo of the ZH Legion, a group with a much shorter and less illustrious history, both in creative and financial terms. If Levitz didn't bring back HIS Legion, he sure won't bring back the ZH Legion, especially given how poorly the book has sold for so long. They've had their run, and now they are out to comic-book pasture.

At some point, I think, to really enjoy comics, you have to start viewing the characters as ideas--archetypes, if you will, rather than as real people with real histories. The idea of Saturn Girl, the icy, unemotional, telepathic control freak, is more important than a particular Saturn Girl who arrived in Metropolis Spaceport in July 2994 AD and sat in seat 10F of the space cruiser, having dined on Pluto Pretzels and Kona Juice.

Because comic books are a serial medium relying on archetypal characters, you really have only two choices -- the characters never really age or develop, but are interesting enough as icons to make reading their adventures every month worthwhile. Or, you allow the characters to age and develop, in full knowledge that every generation or so you will have to start over, because you will progressed too far from the original inspiration that attracted everyone in the first place.

The Legion has a tough location on this narrative continuum because it is a large team book. Therefore, few if any of its characters have the iconic power of a Superman or Spider-Man. The group interaction is what most readers enjoy. However, group interaction implies personal development, which at some point moves the characters too far from their source.

My hope for the Waid/Kitson Legion is that they play up the iconic aspects of the book AND make its characters more interesting. Then, you have the potential to do what has been successful for books like the Avengers and JLA over the years --you regularly shake up the roster to give the book a continual renewal of character interactions and individual narrative threads.

I've been waiting for a long time for somebody to understand this. It's such a simple concept, yet most comic book readers can't get it.
How would you like your own timeline, doublechinner ? I still have some good tickets around; "lord of time of your owm timeline", "successful evil overlord of your own timeline", "illusionist snake-princess of your own timeline" (not exactly sold out), and the very rare "I-can't-believe-John-Byrne-is-still-a-great-writer timeline". Choose one, if you want.

I'm sort of at peace with the reboot now, just as long as the issues are as good as that preview. For neatness' sake I'd like to see a little follow up to the dangling thread that is Shikari, but as much as _I_ think it'd be fine for the two or more LSH versions to discreetly co-exist, I imagine that would be counter productive to the whole reboot. Expect them to turn up in a few years as a hypertime footnote, or in some crossover. Or maybe in the "Crisis 2" we're hearing rumours of.

In the meantime I'm just going to try and enjoy the new version (And I say this as someone who was _horrified_ by the idea of a reboot).

Trapper!!!! What a generous, magnanimous offer from someone as busy, all-powerful and malevolent as yourself! I hardly know what to say! I thought about asking for "King of All Sandwiches," but it's taken. How about "Duke of All Dumplings, especially those various Asian, steamed, pork-filled dumplings with a spicy/sour sauce?" Um...dumplings...

I am excited to see new Legion stories that remain true to the spirit of the Legion and its characters, whatever that means. As a comics reader of 30+ years, I usually worry much more about character continuity than plot continuity, but it is true that Waid and Kitson are restarting both. I am most annoyed by violent character "rape," as David Gerrold referred to it (boy, you could say ANYTHING in the 70s), when a character I feel like I know well suddenly has a new flaw, capability or viewpoint that springs up out of the blue (see: Cosmic Boy and Church of the Last Son). That said, I liked much of the reboot characterizations (I echo the frequent appreciation for Invisible Kid, Karate Kid, and Umbra), although Snecki is pretty much unforgivable and tarnishes everyone who agreed to use the character. Most of all I want such compelling characters and stories that my beloved Legion will not lie in intensive care, on life-support, for years on end. Give us the future, and make it sell, dammit!

For the record, I'm still not buying, Byrning or reading this, and I'm still "_horrified_ by the idea of a reboot".

the ZH Legion was created after a similar Limbo-like send off to the original Legion of Super-Heroes

PU Legion faded from existence, because Time Trapper was messing with the future timeline by using the pocket universe as a bypass. The timeline reverted back to what nature attended.

ZH timeline was saved and it's Legion is roaming out of control in hypertime. They, and their timeline still exist. The new series is based on an alternate timeline that has a simliar past that Shikari, who has tracking powers, is stranded in.

Now, we see the passing into Limbo of the ZH Legion, a group with a much shorter and less illustrious history, both in creative and financial terms. If Levitz didn't bring back HIS Legion, he sure won't bring back the ZH Legion, especially given how poorly the book has sold for so long. They've had their run, and now they are out to comic-book pasture.

We're not really sure of that. by reading the Special you can see that they have a way back to Zero Hour because of Shikari and the fact that V4 Legion still exist and need to be rescued from Hypertime. It's kind of like Valor being trapped in that phantom, or whatever it was called, zone for a thousand years, but perhaps in comic time they'll be stuck for a month if the new series fails live up to it's hype and it may fail since Waid seems to be too unfocused on what will attract readers and too focused on thinking it's going to be god's gift to all comic books.

To me this seems to be a retelling of old stories in diffrent format. New villians, new costumes, but same Archie taste. I got a feeling that this book will be canceled by issue 12 because Waid made too many promises and seems to say anything to gain attention.

This is like a cheap gimmick made to look spectacular, but will probably end up a stinker after issue 2 or 3 when the "hype" dies out, even if Waid is writing it. Not all his works and ideas were succuses and this may end up in that list.

It's obvious that Waid is too focused on the "glory" of the super-hero, instead of the "reason". The real solution for Legion is to broaden the 31st century area, but Waid will surely make the same mistakes where it seems that the Legion are the only heroes in the whole wide universe and the trillians of trillians of poeple of the universe are too helpless to take care of themselves.

DC needs to wake up and look out the window to see what's going on. It's like they're living in a closed box.

Hmm. I disagree.

I'm thinking this will be a take on the LSH that *finally* takes off.

Maybe not. We'll see. But I hope it does.

As good as the stuff we've seen so far is, I haven't seen anything that'll make me think the non-Legion masses will stand up and take notice. It might create good word of mouth based on its quality, but I haven't seen any "hook" that'll pique others' interest.

I hope we see more promos that emphasize that this isn't just a "superhero team" - maybe more of those takes on 31st century advertising that hints at the world Waid is creating, but make them ads for the Legion somehow. The book needs something to make people try it out!

I don't know. I've heard a few people who are non-Legion fans say that they're interested in this book. The Titans/Legion Special also didn't hurt.

Hi guys
Good news is that initial sales are way, way above anything LSH has achieved for many a long year - (more than double the highest it achieved in its last two runs if I understood the figures correctly -) so definitely a whole lot of new readers ARE jumping on board - our task as creators will be to keep them with us

BTW the Titans/Legion Special was apparently the highest reordered book from any company for that month!

Also a really big compliment/relief for me was that Jim Lee told me in Texas that he really liked what he'd seen so far- and we all know how big an LSH fan Jim is!

My memory is not what it used to be but if its DOUBLE what we sold in the last run thats a heck of an increase. So whats that then around 55,000 to 60,000.?



And praise from Jim Lee too.

To borrow a phrase from these boards

<font size="30">WOOHOO</font s>


Ahem. sorry i shall return to grumpy old man mood now

Last two runs? That's Legion Lost (or maybe Worlds) and The Legion, right?

Bearing in mind usual disclaimers about North American estimates only...

http://www.legionworld.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002307#000000

Okay, I know For No Better Reason slipped a bit, so the absence of those figures is not significant. That would make the benchmark The Legion #1 (estimated from inital, not final as now, orders as 28350). Meaning that, in comparable figures, LSHv5 #1 would be looking at 60-65000.

Which, in the September estimates (the latest available) would place it between 20 and 23. Squarely on top of Teen Titans (which I suspect is retailers literally looking at their TT orders and saying "same again please"), and just ahead of Chuck Austen's JLA. Which is a jump on where it was, but for the amount of publicity it's been getting, less hot than it might have been. And certainly not "making LSH DC's #1 book" Mr Waid...

Well I might be prepared to give WaK the benefit of the doubt here a bit.

By Septembers estimates we can see that (If we accept and place the Legion between JLA and Teen Titans) there are potentially only 5 DC comics which would list above the Legion. These are Teen Titans, Batman, Superman, Identity Crisis and Superman/Batman. Now call me an optimist, but I think that’s pretty good for a series that has a reputation for being impenetrable to new fans. After all, we can discount Identity Crisis from the list as it will come to an end soon. That leaves the Legion up against Teen Titans, and the big two, Superman and Batman. Not too shabby, as it would put us ahead of the other big icons such as Wonder Woman, Flash and Green Lantern. And if the stories and art justify it then it is not beyond the realms of possibility for the Legion to get to first place in the list of DC comics.

So far so good I say. But, as with every comic, we will need to see what happens after first issue fever is over and sales settle down.

Jim Lee for Legion back-ups!

Then see how quickly this book gets to #1!

Faraway: Busiek on JLA for a JLA/Av followup'll give that a bump (I mean, the Sep figures are Austen), and you're forgetting Morrison's JLA: Classified and (eugh) Green Lantern: Rebirth. And you've got Batman only still that high because it's still riding on the dregs of Hush, and it's still above that point.

And the fact that it's picking up in mid-stream negates a lot of the restart potential. No-one's getting in on the ground floor here - first entrance is on floor 5. Again, negative. Plus there's the first issue drop (which, in the most optimistic case is 10%, and 20-25% are not uncommon).

Really, for a Day One restart, with the amount of publicity it's been given, this should have broken the 100k barrier (for the icv2 estimates) if it was to be a big success. It's going to make, in the most optimistic case, two-thirds of that. This is, for the claims made and the push given, a disappointment.

Was anyone *really* expecting this to be DC's number #1 book??? I know I wasn't! The Legion is just not that sort of property.

I'd be more than happy if this book got to about number #20 in the charts! That would be a fantastic increase in readership from the previous series and would make it safe from any cancellation fears. That's all I ask for.

I'm with you, Blacula. I'd be shocked beyond belief if this book hit the #1 spot. Still, Waid didn't say it would be #1 by the first issue, just that it would be #1. But I'm still skeptical, even though I anticipate this being a great book.

Just to clarify there, Rebirth is written by Johns, not Morrison. (I'm sure you knew that, Reboot.)

Yeah. Whatever Morrison did to the X-Men, at least he had the right idea when it comes to Green Lanterns...

I have to agree 100% with Morrisson. I see the old green lantern/arrow as very old and creepy.

Kyle and Conner are much cooler.

I don't see how 50 - 60k sales for a book that hasn't sold more than thirty thousand issues in, what ten years? is dissapointing.

How many books actually reach the 100K mark anymore? Damn few, if any.

Also...if we need more sales why not just kill the most beloved Legionnaire and add Batman, Superman, the Flash, Black Lightning, and Katana sort of a response to the New Avengers! Give them a time machine and kill Ultra Boy! (Jo being my fave as was Hawkeye)

Jorge

Let's not have Legion go down that road again. The TMK era wasn't exactly good for Legion sales given that it almost put a permanent end to any sort of Legion.

Actually, the TMK era had enough sales to warrant bi-weekly shipping for a bit on the main LSH book, plus launching a spinoff series(LEGIONNAIRES). They don't do stuff like that for poor-selling books, I wouldn't imagine.

Then why is it that the Legion had to reboot or die?

Giffen left with issue 38, his last.

The Bierbaums left with issue 50, their final.

So maybe we shold be looking at the team that replaced them? THEY are the guys whose storylines directly led into Zero Hour. Y'know, when Glorith was altering everyone's ages at random, everyone was adopting totally new and confusing identities and stuff? If there's finger-pointing to be done, let's point them there. TMK had nothing to do with those stories.

Then I'd say Giffen's loss of influence was what did it. After all, L* was hardly the best Legion book out there, and that was just T&M. But this does seem to fit in with where I saw the greatest declines in v4.

Giffen's leaving (in a fit of rage, leaving a destroyed Earth behind) was absolutely a reason why "reboot" was first brought up, I'm sure.

We disagree about Tom & Mary, I loved their issues of L* and their Giffen-less run on LSH too, for the most part.

Actually, wasn't Giffen the first one to suggest a full reboot (after the Superboy Edict?)

And the fact that McCraw & co were handed both books after the reboot suggests they weren't held responsible.

Yes, but when we mention Giffen we always have to bring up "The Hat Trick". That could be a very good reason why he didn't remain.

True. Giffen became disillusioned early on with DC's attempted stifling of his storytelling on LSH (thanks for nothing, Carlin) which led to the mini-boot (see TMK's LSH # 4, 5).

The Bierbaums were fired from both books and left out of the entire "start from scratch" Zero Hour talks. They would certainly have opposed it.

But that all doesn't change the fact that the book had enough sales to warrant twice-monthly shipping and a spinoff series-- during the tenure of Giffen and the Bierbaums, which is what we were discussing.

OK, that's true. I just tend to lump that whole era under one heading - despite its inaccuracies.

Yup, but it's not as if they had any responsibility to keep McCraw & co around either if they'd been held responsible for sales going right down.

I have to say - this STILL looks more like Triad than Shadow Lass to me, even now. Hell, it looks more like Triad than Triplicate Girl does!

(obligatary dig: "as if the Legion was created today?!" Even if you were going to demand a Girl/Lass name, no-one uses triplicate pads any more. And I can't think of any time I've heard a single other use of the word "triplicate" ever. It's a dead word. Obsolete even).

Beuracratically and legally speaking, you often "sign things in triplicate".

And I think that's a lovely Shadow Lass. She is somewhat exotic looking which I think is an important component of Shady's look.

One of the dangers of rebooting is that people have already pidgeon-holed characters into preconceived ideas/notions. When the writers try to take any deviations from those pre-existing character concepts, fans jump all over their back.

I think what is important for all of us to do as fans is that we approach this new version with an open mind and enjoy the stories on their own merits and not compare them to things that happened in the 70's and 80's. What worked back then for stories might not necessarily draw a big crowd of new readers today. That's not to say that they were bad stories, they were good but they were good in a different time period context.

As a hockey fan, I cannot compare Gordie Howe to Steve Yzerman, even though both were/are utterly incredible atheletes and both personified the true spirit of the game and their team like few others of their generations.

I'm sure that Mark will give some characters a familiar feel but he's also going to do a lot of new things with them. We, as fans, need to realize that and be prepared to embrace the change as well as the familiarity. That includes the artwork, which many have already stated that they already like.

Good points SK. I know I ususally like Mark's writing, he brought me back to the Flash for quite a while when usually the character doesn't do anything for me. I've seen posts both pro and con about his time writing the Flash but in general the reaction was overwhelmingly positive, the sales were good and he made the book interesting.

How often is "triad" used, other than in music theory?

"Triplicate" is at least descriptive of her powers, in that it indicates three copies of the same thing. A "triad" is a set of three distinct things.

The only 'Triad' I'd ever heard of before Luornu was the Chinese mafia-like gang. Probably just as well that Waid's distancing her from that association.

Yet more preview pages from v5 #1 are available at PopCultureShock .

Wow.
Don't think there's more to be said other than:
"Can't wait"
and
"wow again"

Charlie E/N

Thanks for the link Eryk. I check PCS earlier but had trouble getting the site to load.

That five page prologue in PCS has great artwork but really don´t say much about the series(even if page five is awesome). The other previews work better for me.
Still, I´m with A-N Boy, I can´t wait.

For some quirky reason PCS is blocked from my work pc. Bah!

Not to worry Matt. Here they are for those who can't access.

You mist a page LL.

hey LL, where is the last page with the Legion members raising with closed fists and shining Legion rings? There is one fist that I cannot figure out who - the one with orange sleeve with black cuff - anyone know who that fist belongs?

? Those were the only pages available at PCS. I'll go and look again.

That's what I get for navigating from the front page of the preview instead of clicking through each image. I've added the missing page.

And I've realized we are only missing page 6 to make all the pages from the cover to page 15 previewed so far. That's half the book.

MmmmNOPE, not gonna look! I didn't read the B&W advance copy in Dallas last month, and I'm not gonna spoil it now!

I -will- say that I'm looking more forward to issue 1 than I am Christmas...


(And -not- because Barry can FedEx my original art purchase to me... (STEVE!) )

I'm a little annoyed at myself for caving in over the earlier pages, but I'm not going near these ones. Honest. I will be strong! It's only nine more days...

:7

So, aren't there any left-handed Legionnaires this time out? Flight ring on the left hand used to be how Cos and maybe Imra were implied to be lefties. Hmmph!

wow !!!

those latest pages are cool !!! i didn't imagine the book starting off like that !!!

the final shot of the "Flight Rings" was great !!!

can't wait for this to come out [ just not sure when that will be in the UK, yet !!! i have a sick feeling i won't be able to get it, until the New Year !!! ]

Matthew.

Sounds like Timber Wolf! And that one all the way to the front right looks like it should be Mon with his golden arm bands. Shall we try to tag each arm with a name?

I've found that lefties make great lovers. Don't ask me why, but that's my personal experience. So we definitely need someone to join the Left-Handed Legionnaires Squad.

That what I thought, Vee. T-Wolf immediately came to mind. But I thought he wasn't going to show up immediately. Besides, do you really want him to be called Wolf Boy? Anyway, I tried to identify that arms in the "Who's Arm is this anyway?" thread.

Given the framing on page 5, I'm guessing page 6 is the other half of the image. Might even include a few lefties.

Lefties!!??

I would prefer lefties were kept out of my legion thankyou very much

You don't want lefties? Hasn't one of the goals of the Legion always been to promote diversity?

I'm a Righty myself, but I have several lefties in my family. And we've stopped making fun of them about it... most of the time.

Leftie Legion Lovers Unite!!! We demand parity! We demand justice! Boycott!!!

Maybe not a boycott. I still want to read the book. Still... Is it too late for a correction? Can we pulp this book for it's blatant anti-leftie bias?

EDE pointed out in another thread that the far left hand (black glove) isn't wearing a ring. Maybe there's hope!

But! Putting the left-handed man (or woman) on the far "left" side is just Righties way of marginalizing my people! We won't be silenced!!!