Legion World Forums LEGION OUTPOST Mission Monitor Board Coming Out

I'm undecided. Hope that's okay!

Fifth grade was a pivotal point for me. Long before I knew I was gay, I gradually lost my faith. While I appreciated the moral teachings I was learning at my church, I questioned the existence of God and pretty much gave up on him.

But I could never quite call myself an atheist -- things seemed to organized to be completely random, but it was clear to me there was no supreme being pulling any strings.

And then in a college history class, I read Ben Franklin's autobiography and became acquainted with deism, which is the notion of a "clockwork god," a being or power that set the universe in motion and let it go, without any day-to-day manipulation.

Since I believe in ghosts, I'm still working out the afterlife, but deism fits my nonreligious view.

I think my parents were more upset that I came out as not Christian than coming out as gay.

I would say I am still in the ;Christian' camp, but I find myself having a really harder time with "organized religion" the older I get.

Everyone has to reach their own conclusions in life about God. I'll let ya know when I run out of questions...

I left the Catholic church at 18, about the same time I figured out that I liked guys as well as girls. At the time, it wasn't so much a disbelief in God that pushed me out, it was my lack of faith that the church represented God's wisdom. There were too many contradictions in the moral teachings of the church. Soon after, I started reading more on the evolution of the church and discovered how many of those teachings and practices were doctrinal rather than dogmatic and that pretty much sealed the deal.

These days, I'm more influenced by Carl Sagan's logic regarding God. If you tell yourself that the universe is too complex to have come into being on its own, that it needed an organized intelligence to create it, then you have to ask the next logical question: where did that intelligence come from? And if you say "it was always there" or "it came into being spontaneously" then why is it necessary to explain the universe? Why can't those phrases simply apply to the universe itself? He explains it better in Cosmos, of course.

All that said, my own belief is much like what Seymour cited above. A good friend of mine is fond of saying "the universe is God's terrarium." I guess I was Catholic long enough that the very concept of God is rather imprinted. I don't need God to explain the universe, but I use him to do it anyway.

With all the stories told here, I would feel disingenuous and a bit cowardly not to come out myself.

I've identified myself as a Christian on a couple of threads here. I haven't mentioned yet that I'm a minister. But wait...there's more. I'm a Baptist minister. It's true. I'm not a preacher (though I've delivered a number of sermons); I'm the director of music, and the director of spiritual formation, in my church, and that has been my vocation.

I was born and raised Baptist, so to borrow Director's Lad's phrase, I'm probably Baptist Christian "imprinted". Like most of you, my studies of world religions and my own questions about how the world works opened other ways of looking at life. Although I'm still in the same "faith" I was raised in, it's really a whole different understanding and awareness that's come as a result of my questions and experiences.

Just so you know, I'm not the kind of angry, hard, judgmental Baptist the media like to show. There are many of us who have to fight that stereotype. That's a big reason I haven't come out here till now. It's a hard thing for folks to get past sometimes.

It's funny, Quis. The first people you "out" your (non)belief status to is this online community, while for me, everyone who knows me except this community is well aware of my belief status. Until now, anyway.

Quis, you said, "My non-belief is part of who I am." Yep. And my belief is part of who I am. We all grow better when that's okay.

Wow, LT. A Baptist minister? I would never have guessed. Thanks for sharing. l

This really is a fascinating thread on so many levels.

I love that Viridis says he discovered that he was a pagan. That is such a cool way of looking at it. It's what you were all along and you found it. It's similar to how I feel about Anglicanism (very long story short: The Episcopal Church in the USA is part of the Anglican Communion).

I knew about Tracker. He "came out" as a Baptist to me when I quoted the hymn "O God, Our Help in Ages Past" in the Quotes Without Context some time ago and we realized we had church music in common, albeit that he's a professional and I'm an amateur and that we are in different traditions. I understand his reluctance to share. I don't think I've made much of an attempt to hide my religion here, but I mostly try to keep it to references to the choir and "you're in my prayers" when someone is in a difficult time.

And, yes, I love that we can have civil sharing about our own beliefs without the feeling that anyone is trying to convert anyone else or argue the point, but then I'd expect no less of this community.

Baptist here. And not of the fake inbred Westboro variety. It kills me that a small group of family and friends like Westboro can draw so much attention and make the word 'Baptist' into something to be reviled by many.

I haven't been to a church service in many years but I would attend one and even join a church if I found one I liked.

Like Lancesrealm, I have asked myself the hard questions. The answer I have found is-- there is no way to answer them.

But, it pleases me to believe in God. It gives me hope to turn to prayer in times of dire need. And when something good happens for me, I have been known to utter the occasional "Thank you Jesus". These are things I can find joy and peace in.

Sadly for many gay folks, there has been so much antigay sentiment in churches associated with gay being "abomination". Well, also listed as abominations: tattoos, eating shrimp and many other things everyone does every single day. Those were old Levitical laws that were rendered moot when Jesus came onto the scene, as so many Pastors like to forget. And let us remember: "Thou shalt not be a flaming polesmoking faggot" is NOT one of the 10 Commandments.

Long story short, I can understand why so many gay people are athiests. I do wish they could find they joy and peace I do in religion, but I *do* understand why they do not. And to be honest, I am a bit of a hypocrite myself for as I stated, I haven't been to church in many years.

Since you posted after this and said you do believe in God, I can only assume you mean the Gay closet here? How'd I miss that?

WELCOME TO THE FAMILY!

Jerry, if you've shared before about losing your partner, I missed it. I'm sorry to hear it. You've told us some great stories, and some hard ones, about your life together. Thanks for that. I believe, like you, that there is more good to come.

I came out after I finished reading "Stuck Rubber Baby". It made me think about how my brother's been out longer than me, while I was stuck in the "not straight, maybe bi" mindset, and the idea that if something happened to him because he's gay but I'm spared because I wasn't being honest wasn't right.

He was the first I told, then my parents and grandfather. I then told Candle, Nei, Viola, and Professor Thompson because they're my dearest, closest friends and I felt they had a right to know.

I didn't make it a habit of broadcasting I'm gay because, well, A. I've already made it a habit of gaining sympathy because of how crappy my home life can get and I didn't want it to turn into that, and B. I'm now honest about it but I don't consider it a big deal. I'm just gay, that's all.

I've just wanted to be casual about it.

I am very proud of you!! I think being casual about it is a smart way to go.

My li'l boobie is gay.
I'm so proud of you for sharing that with us.
I am actually in tears right now.

Damn it! Sarc, you've made your Aunt Rhino's mascara run!

I should totally go to Legion Tracker's church!!

If the presence of Dr. Mayavale in our universe isn't enough to prove there is no god, I don't know what is.

I identify as a Roman Catholic, and while I question a lot of the ins and outs of the Church itself, I firmly believe in God and the teachings of Jesus. It's provided me with tremendous comfort over the years. I certainly don't pretend to think I've got any real answers about the truths of the universe, but I find that in and of itself comforting.

I find for Catholics and any other religious people, a very healthy approach is to question the Church itself and it's teachings, keeping an open mind and recognizing that people tend to get things wrong. Sometimes I think frustrations with the Church itself pull people away from a belief in God, and that's too bad though quite understandable.

I'm a student of history, focused in Roman History, and a lot of that time has been spent researching early Christianity & Judaism simply because I find it fascinating. This entails a very honest approach and open mind to realize the church itself, the bible and the Torah are all man-made things. The Bible was edited by the Roman Empire for example, and is loaded with politics of Late Antiquity. For me, knowing these things actually helps me come to terms with my own understanding of religion and spirituality. 

Catholics get a weird wrap of being adherent to the Pope or the Church. But every Catholic I know seems to take the opposite approach, with a liberal amount of skepticism. Maybe it's an American thing. Or a New England thing.

Recently, my wife and I have been looking for a new Church. She used to go every week with her Mom and when her Mom passed it took the wind out of her sails a bit. Being in that same Church she went to with her mother was a little too painful, and the Priest himself always was a little too abbrassive, and a little too focused on abortion, which my wife and I can't stand. We've taken our time and actually have found a new Church, which we like because the Priest has really impressed us. An older man (as most Catholic Priests are these days), he was very open to us that he thinks the Church really needs to change; that the key factor is it needs to start being more welcoming. I like that attitude in a Priest. We spoke at length, about clergy being allowed to marry, about there being women pastors, about gay and lesbian members being more welcome, and other things. It lifted my spirits to talk to an older Priest who was progressive.  I know belief in God and religion are two different things, but they often go hand in hand.

Like a lot of others here, I believe everyone is entitled to believe what they want and I'm not a fan of trying to convert people to anything (except maybe comic books). Spirituality is something people need to find on their own, and I think it's more rewarding and more personal that way.

Well, you're a man and I'm a woman. I didn't want you to get the wrong idea.

I just want to read his review of Stuck Rubber Baby. I love that book!

---> ---> SK, Rhino <--- <---

I'm an elder in a Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) congregation.

My own journey has been complicated. I was raised Catholic, with all the "do this or you'll go to hell" theology (which I know does not represent the beliefs of a lot of Catholics, but it was how I was raised) -- a very simplistic view of the world, God, and religion. At about 17, I stopped going to church and adopted a more-or-less Deist perspective: God still existed in my world, but I did not trust organized religion.

Then I went to college, learned stuff, my mother died, I moved away from home and went to grad school, learned more stuff, and finally was thrust out into the "real world" to make my way as best I could. Moving to Kansas City made me want to reconnect with something meaningful, something "permanent," and so I joined my present church.

It's been a wonderful journey since then, but recently some of my old doubts and concerns have resurfaced. An atheist acquaintance of mine openly challenged my beliefs on Facebook. That led to a private dialogue between us in which he concluded that I and all people of faith are delusional and hypocrites (his exact words).

While I know he does not represent atheists other than himself and while his methods were totally unacceptable, he did get me to question what I truly believe and why. One point he made was that I was raised in the Christian faith and so that is what seems real to me (he used the term "brainwashed") -- and he is right: Had I been raised Jewish or Buddhist or agnostic, those worldviews would likely have been the ones I returned to.

I remain convinced that there is something out there, something larger than this world and our limited perceptions of it. Wayne Dyer (that guy with all the PBS specials) calls it the universal mind. I still call it God. Too many blessings have happened in my life to discount them as coincidence or happenstance.

I am still troubled by many things. Every time I see needless suffering or injustice, I wonder why God lets it happen. The answers I've been given (free will, God has a purpose for suffering, etc.) do not seem satisfactory. Yet the notion of a universal mind/God helps focus my attention on the hope that this world is not all there is, and that suffering, however terrible, is temporary.

That's my very incomplete journey so far.

One aspect of my denomination I deeply appreciate is that we do not judge others who believe differently than we do. We recognize that we don't have all the answers. Instead, we seek unity among all of God's people (which, of course, is everyone).

[snip]

Personally, I grew weary of the judgement brigade years back. One thing about Judaism: its traditions are not evangelical. Faith is something you speak about in depth amongst other Jews only. To push your faith on others and seek converts just isn't done. So I've decided not to be an evangelical atheist. As with Judaism, my actions can speak for me. I don't want to "win" anyone over, be anyone's leader, or have them agree with me because they feel bad. That's no way to live.

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Every time I see needless suffering or injustice, I wonder why God lets it happen. The answers I've been given (free will, God has a purpose for suffering, etc.) do not seem satisfactory.

I admit that's a major reason that I dropped faith. All my life, I found it sort of strange that I should be required to love anyone who hands out rewards and punishments based on a mysterious "plan" that makes little sense to me personally. If I thought such a being was real, I think I'd flee them, much as in the physical realm, we're cautioned against forming close ties with people who abuse us while claiming that they're doing it out of love.

When I decided that I was spending more time failing to untangle the contradictions of faith than I was drawing comfort and feeling kinship with others over it, I decided that it was time to just let go. Ironically, I have more "inner peace" as an Atheist than I ever did as a believer.

I've seen atheists on-line who do this, calling God a fairy tale, etc. and I think "Dude, you don't convince someone of your points by insulting them and what they believe."

I think those atheists have either been hurt by religion and/or really believed at one point in their lives and now feel that they had been lied to. Kind of like what you said HWW, the "Do this (or Don't do that) or you'll go to Hell" line. Then they find out that whatever "it" is, it isn't bad. I would say this is why lots of gay people turn away from religion. Of course as an atheist, I see turning away from religion as a good thing and I seperate religion from spirituality. I do know that lots of people get a sense of comfort, purpose, & community from being religious or spiritual and I know that a lot of people do good things because of their religious beliefs. One thing that does annoy me is those people who think that a person can't be good or moral without believing in God. Most of those people had betrayed me when I was Dr. Mayavale.

I don't know much about Judaism, but I admire that aspect.

(One thing I regret about my otherwise overwhelmingly positive college experiences is that I never had the opportunity to take a course in comparative religions. There is always the possibility of taking such a course in the future, of course.)

My "faith education" sort of evolved from seeing God as the cause of our suffering or punishment to seeing God as a being who lets us make our own choices and live with the consequences. Granted, that's not much better.

It seems to be a Catch-22 situation. If God intervenes in every situation (and does so in such a way that removes all doubt of his involvement), then what incentive do humans have for solving their own problems? God becomes the ultimate helicopter parent, making sure Johnny can't fail.

On the other hand, if God allows mass murderers to go unpunished, babies to be born addicted to crack, and people to suffer from cancer, AIDS, and other diseases, God is, what? A negligent bystander?

I think part of the problem is that we (all human beings) have a very limited view of what we want God to be like. If God does what we want him to do (e.g. cure diseases, catch murderers, help me pass my history test), we have "proof" that he exists. If these things do not come to pass, we have "proof" that he does not exist. And when good things happen to us, we feel we're being rewarded by God. When bad things happen, we feel God is punishing us for some sin.

The fault, I think, lies within us, not God . . . specifically with our desire to want things our way (even if our way includes world peace, etc.).

I'm glad you've found "inner peace," cleome. Sometimes letting it all go is the best we can do.

Yeah. The odd part is that by judging me and other people of faith, my acquaintance exhibited the same behaviors he accused us of.

Somewhere in the Bible it says that you can't help your brother with the splinter in his eye if you have a log in yours. Alas, in all of his scrutiny of Bible verses to prove its contradictions, he never seems to have come across that line.

I agree. Religion has been invaluable to society in terms of codifying traditions and codes of conduct for how people treat one another. But religion, like any other human institution, is subject to human error and corruption. When people place a religion itself above its moral teachings and the right to study and question its tenets for themselves, they abdicate the right to think. No religion should advocate that.

You totally should!

Then we could have a covered-dish supper and invite rickshaw and Lardy.