Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Before Watchmen

not sure about LXG, but I'm pretty sure that's the case for Watchmen, and probably for V too.

I admire his conviction, but at the same time he can afford to pick and choose his battles. Ideally, any creative person should be able to.

Kesel makes a lot o sense, especially back in the day. Yes, BW coming out now is less potentially damaging than if it had come out in the late 80s (or indeed any time right up until the movie was still in theaters).

Yes, it is probably safer now, and yes, some amazing talents are on board, and yes, Watchmen was based on the Charlton characters, and no not every Moore project is as ideologically pure/consistent with his stance on others doing Watchmen....

But just as Moore changed the Charlton characters to fit his vision, so too could the Watchmen characters be modified into fresh characters for this new project; the weight of the creators could carry it, and free it from having to tie into the original Moore/Gibbons work. The only reason not to do this is to ride on Watchmen's coat-tails among fans and presumably the larger public (which presumably is what the Warner execs want, to prep for prequel movies).

Since the suits have presumably given marching orders where Levitz and Kahn would not go, we can either condemn everyone following orders and/or participating by their own choice, or accept that if prequels have to be printed, these do look pretty damn good, and be thankful that lesser-quality spinoffs (or *shudder* post-Watchmen sequels) have not appeared ere now. (Can you imagine an 80s Joey Cavalieri/Don Heck Night Owl? A Gerry Conway/Carmine Infantino Rorschach series?)

I still hold a lot of respect and appreciation for Moore, and will hopefully never simply fall into the "well, he signed a bad deal" view. And I support his right to be critical of projects that violate his principles. But it seems a lot less black/white than he may wish it to be, and I'm not going to point fingers at any who support or create these works. I won't be rushing out to buy them, but if they hold up over time I may read them at some point.

If this is the case, then it probably says a lot about how well-off he might be from the comics (and many many trades sold) themselves.

If he is content with just the cash those made (or as I suspect: continue to make) for him, then good for him.

It would have been a public relations coup for him though, if he HAD accepted royalties and then donated them to the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund, or to elderly creators in need...

^ I think his share of the royalties ended up going to the co-creators/artists on the projects - Lloyd for Vendetta, Gibbons for Watchmen, etc.

My faulty memory seems to be telling me that I picked this info up from an interview with Gibbons himself, where the interviewer made mention of how Moore's principled decision greatly benefitted Gibbons. I could be wrong though.

If that is the case, good for him... that is the kind of thing I can support and respect.

Let's hope he got some income from the movie at least.

Yes, Moore refused royalties for Watchman and V, and they $$ went to his co-creators instead.

Moreover, he fell out with... I think it was Lloyd over V, after he never thanked him for it.

Refused royalties? What was his reason for that?

He didn't want either film to be made, and this was his way of protesting.

Ego.

He did not want his name used in association with it. I want to say I remember him deferring his royalties to the others that he worked with on the books. I could be remembering wrong though.

You know, if they were smart, they'd put a huge credit in the films,
"Adapted and made over the objections of:
ALAN MOORE"

I think even he'd be happy with that.

That would still have me laughing if they had done that.

I'm sure the legal department would have okayed that. not.

I am really enjoying this ... Minutemen # 1 and Silk Spectre #1 had excellent art and the stories referenced the darkness of the characters lives without going there and retelling those stories ... we get new stories instead.

Amanda Conner was perfect for the Sally Jupiter's story.

can't wait for Jae Lee's Ozymandias!

Is this not also a legal maneuver ... so in a future lawsuit, he can say he never agreed, and then claim he is owed much more?



Anyway, My thing on the controversy is ... Alan ... your fans want comics ... don't be a jerk, write them. or at least get out of the way.

I am not a fan of the original Watchmen. I thought it was over the top, and the whole nuclear thing was played out. (I confess I did just read it about 5 years ago)

also, I thought his depiction of gay characters was ... as if they were criminals or it was their dirty secret. Maybe, one could say it is accurate of the life style of some people at the time but ... i thought it was too 'sensational' or he was trying to be shocking or edgy rather than telling these character's honest stories.

Meanwhile, Mr. Cooke threw a line out there in MinuteMan #1 ... "Did you think those kids cared she was a lesbian? Would they be less thankful? Would they have owed her less?"

That was nice, if a bit forced as a redemption of the Silhouette ... and it goes to show what I like about Minuteman #1 and Silk Spectre #1 ... These stories are about heroes!

The original Watchmen wasn't about heroes at all. IMHO.

(I should probably duck!)

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and .... Adam Hughes!!! awesome!!! and Jae Lee dosn't do enough either ... he could draw the worst story and it would be beautiful. Darwin Cooke can drawn some fight scenes ... there is so much energy in the Silouhette's sequence! and he's a great writer too! The stories so far are really about the individual character's stories.

Not reading the "Before..." stuff, but thought I'd point out that Nuclear paranoia was EXTREMELY relevant at the time. There are a number of elements that probably don't age well, but as a snap shot of what 1986 was like, even an alternate reality of '86, Watchmen is highly accurate.

This was also very much a product of 1986 mentality for the depiction of gays, if anything more was slightly more progressive in addressing gays at all (other than as complete caricatures). Certainly his depiction of how they would have been portrayed by someone like Hollis decades before (when dealing with Silouhette), was completely in keeping with the times.

It's not. There are no real "heroics", just people acting according to their worldview. You have these six people with completely different views of the world whose perceptions are all challenged and no one is proven definitively right or wrong (this was the movie's biggest failing - taking sides).

well, I don't think it was extremely relevant. Gorbachev took office in 1985 I believe, and the Cold War had been going on for like 40 years at this point. We didn't have drills in case of nuclear attack or anything.


I think his gay characters are caricatures, of depravity. Another stereotype, that was going out of fashion in educated circles in the 80s. Besides, when its basically all the story they get, is how they are corrupt heros on the decline and they have all these secrets about their sexuality ... I'd prefer this not to be explored at all. He certainly didn't have anything nice to say.

At the time I don't remember the gay characters being any worse than anyone else, and so was happy to see them. As Harvey Fierstein might point out, the visibility was valuable.

I wonder if this series will be collected in individual trade paperback?

Just getting to read the first issues that are out.

Minutemen #1 was a very good introduction to the characters, with Hollis Mason (Nite Owl I) being our narrator.

We get his view on all of his teammates. Fleshing out a few of them a little more than the original book did. Nothing drastic, but filling in some holes.

The art is great. Darwyn does a faboo job as always in both the writing and art department here.

I checked out some scans from the various prequel books, and mostly my reaction was... meh.

There's no doubt the creators involved are very talented, but I was happy to leave this kind of thing to my own imagination and to that of other fans. No matter how good these books are, I'm afraid they're never going to measure up to the "mystery of the unexplained" that I already built in my head from reading the original stories.

I'd rather see the creators striking out on their own, doing something that has the feel of a personalized story, rather than something built to fit in with Moore's and Gibbon's original vibe. No matter how well the newer creators match it, I fear it still has a warmed-over, imitative feel to me. A good imitation is still an imitation.

I can appreciate that Cle, but on the other hand, if all creators did was new things that they wanted to, the very thing that drew most of us here would be long gone. If a creator feels strongly enough about a project...any project, then I say good for them. Most of the talent involved also do their own thing from time to time. But as Coleen Doran will tell you, you have to pay the bills sometimes and get the capital needed to go and do your own thing.

Silk Spectre #1.

Another good strong first issue. Does it tread any truly new ground...no, to be fair though, none of these books, as prequels) will. All they can do is expand on what was hinted at and make things clearer.

But it gives us a better look at what drives the second Silk Spectre, and why she feels the way she does about her mother. Darwyn does a good job of letting us know what pushed her to the edge.

Amanda Conner's art is gorgeous here as well.

I keep thinking of the lighthouse scene from Dylan Horrocks Hicksville graphic novel, and I'm honestly not too sure that's true. Or at the very least, if more creators had had more free reign twenty-five, fifty, seventy-five years ago, comics might not be in the ugly, ever-contracting, cultish rut they are (at least commercially) today.

But I realize that's all conjecture, you can't prove a negative, and so on.

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If a creator feels strongly enough about a project...any project, then I say good for them. Most of the talent involved also do their own thing from time to time. But as Coleen Doran will tell you, you have to pay the bills sometimes and get the capital needed to go and do your own thing.

Yeah, I know. But by the same token, my own finances are extremely limited. I'm likely to choose the product that's more about the creator themselves, rather than the creator imitating something else somebody before them did just as well, or better. Since I really can't have both.

When I saw the excerpts from the Silk Spectre comic, for instance, my initial reaction was: I've seen this almost image for image before, and it was better and fresher back then.

I've stayed away from the BW projects except for Minutemen, just as I intended when all the series and creators were first announced. I'm a big Darwyn Cooke fan, so having him writing and drawing that was a no brainer for me regardless of what the project was.

And, as expected, issue 1 was a good, solid, enjoyable read. Using Hollis Mason's narration/script worked very well for me. Cooke can just TELL a damn good story with style and flair, so it's very much worth the $4 cover price, imo. I doubt it will live quite up to other Cooke classics like DC: New Frontier or the excellent Parker GNs (the latest of which I bought hot off the press 2 weeks ago!), but I rarely get ANY book that displays such craft as anything Cooke does! I'm just glad to have so much output from him to look forward to!