Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities FINAL CRISIS (Official Thread)

Here's a link to a REALLY good interview with Morrison at IGN.

http://comics.ign.com/articles/950/950703p1.html

Luckily for Morrison, he explains everything pretty much as Rouge did.

This definitely was the last Grant Morrison story I ever read. I never liked the things he did, neither Invisibles, nor JLA, nor Animal Man, even his celebrated All Star Superman left me cold. I just don't like his cold, unemotional characterization and his incoherent writing.

But Final Crisis really was the climax of jibberish in my eyes. Thanks to Rouge, it may be possible to get some sense into this mumbo-jumbo, but I really don't think it's the job of some Internet board pal to explain to me the convoluted mind of a writer who has clearly lost contact with reality - it should be the job of this particular writer. And inside the book, not later in the Internet.

It certainly didn't help that DC complicated matters by doing off-spins which in the end were more important to understand the main story than anyone admitted in the beginning. Madraxx - who the hell is he??? - am I right that he did not appear in the main Final Crisis series until right in the middle of the Final issue?

I really have problems getting over the fact that a celebrated writer managed to transform the annual DC event - this year, even potentially important to the future of the Legion franchize, the only reason to buy it for me once I heard Morrison was writing it - into some James Joyce comic lookalike which might please the oh so vocal Morrison disciples, but leaves a large crowd of regular DC universe fans with nothing but huge question marks over their heads...

I simply don't get why writing major plot developments by NOT showing them - off-panel writing, yeah it's sooooo cool - can be considered genius, but I never was one to get enthusiastic about experimental entertainment... well, I did love 5YL, but it did help to know all the characters back then. Final Crisis was about the Tatooed Man, Anthro, Turpin, rankensteins Monster, Mister Miracle - the one I did not know, a Japanese Super Team, lots of other third- and fourth-stringers, and in the end, I really am embarrassed to confess that I can not make out how this ending will affect the DCU in the months to come - or will it at all?

Another question which really made the book unsatisfying to me: How come Batman, who was subjugated by Darkseids minions, suddenly is there standing in front of Darkseid killing him with a special weapon? Off-panel writing again, genius I just can't cherish?

What exactly happened to Darkseid, and what happened to the Multiverse - does it still exist, and simply the orrery has vanished, or what? Can you reach parallel Earths easier now that the Monitors have faded - thank you so much Rouge for explaining that part to me! - or may it be even more difficult?

And an editorial question: How can DC dare to publish a story relying so heavily on some off-spin stories like Supes Beyond and Revelation, and totally omit any hint to what happened there in the main series? No "meanwhile", no "what happened in another book we wanted to shove down your throat", no "as some of you might know, Madraxx appeard elsewhere than in the main series..."

Simply nothing! Are they so arrogant to believe that every reader is buying any crap they throw on the market labeled "Final Crisis" just like a dumb sheep?

I really will downsize my monthly DC dosage considerably now. They will not get my hard-earned money any longer until someone has the decency to actually put out some apology for this editorial and narrative nightmare...

If I ever bought anything but Legion (and that increasingly less often) I'd pare it down too. Even when DC does some big event that's coherent, it's usually sort of repulsive in some form.

Looking back over FC as a whole, the event really had a number of nice moments with some of my favorite characters.

I particularly liked the generally respectful and consistent characterization that Morrison gave the Marvel family, both in the main FC title and in Superman Beyond. Although I wasn't wild about Mary being turned into a pawn of evil, I'm glad she was restored at the end and wasn't killed off. Her and Freddie's willingness to stand their ground, even in their non-powered forms, spoke volumes about the essence of the Marvel family. And, as a big Tawky Tawny fan, I couldn't have asked for a more fitting showcase of the character. Too bad Uncle Marvel didn't have a cameo.

I liked the appearance of the Great Ten a few issues back, too. I'm really curious to see how the members of this team are doing. I think the planned ongoing's been shelved, although I'd like to see it some day -- or at least see the team appear hear and there in other titles.

Finally, I really loved the fact that Captain Carrot and crew were restored at the end of FC. I also hope to see them around the DCU from time to time.

oh rouge ;_; your power is mighty.

but i thought superman came back from his superman beyond trip literally a heartbeat later??!!

the only other possibility is that he gets returned from L03W months later than he should have (should have paid attention to the post-it notes in the time stream)

Just a few thoughts since rouge shed so much light on things ~

I'm glad the Monitors are gone.

I'm glad Darkseid and the other Kirby creations are gone.
(I loved Kirby creations in Marvel and Darkseid was a great villian, just not in DC. The only two times I enjoyed him was in the Great Darkness Saga and in the Phoenix crossover.)

I liked the music angle ~ I've always been a music of the spheres fan and loved Tolkien's creation story of the singing of creation (in the Silmarilian, if I remember correctly.)
Morrison's concept borrows heavily form that, I think.

I also enjoyed that he tied the beginning of the series ~ the death of Orion/god-bullet with the ending moments, ~ death of Darkseid/god-bullet.
Only Batman would have thought of using the bullet again and only the Flashes could have got Death there in time.

Supes and the Miracle Machine was a clever touch.
My favorite panel in the whole series was when Kal told Mandrakk(whatever) that he was a solar battery!

The reast was just so overwrought and confusing,

How do you keep track of what's going on when you have a bunch of other books to bring in?
It just was a disaster trying to figure out who was who and what was what.

I hope Prime goes the way of the Monitors and Darkseid.
And like others here, I wonder what all of this is going to mean to the DCU and the Legion.

Finally caught up and read #6 & #7. All I can say is thank goodness Rouge is posting on Legion World. I did not really enjoy this at all.

Shady - I love the Tolkein story about the beginning of creation in the Silmarilian. I was so blown away by how unique that was when I read it for the first time two or three years ago.

Here's another very interesting article about Final Crisis and Grant Morrison and his whole style of writing that serves as kindofan addendum to the last one I posted -

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=20019

I don't normally read that blog but darn if he doesn't have some insightful things to say.

Whose lamebrain idea was it to create 4 post FC mini series, all 6 issues each? Does DC really think I'm going to buy any of these? I limit my comic spending every month, and I'm not about to add that to my budget during these tough economic times!

And Grant is hit or miss with me. This was a definite miss. Animal Man and All-Star Superman were both brilliant, Doom Patrol was bizarre but fun. I even thought Invisibles was inspiring up to issue #3 and then it completely lost me so I dumped it from my pull list. I had no interest in his Batman either. I don't need my comics to be mindless drivel, but I don't want to have to be on 'shrooms to understand the nature of reality in a Morrison book either. It's just not worth it to me.

I was really disappointed in this series as a whole. The only spinoffs I've even remotely enjoyed were the Rouges and Legion ones. Everything else has been drivel.

The idea that I'd bother to pick up one of these spin-off titles is laughable. Can't you just tell these will crash and burn?

FINAL CRISIS - still not 'final' yet!

Oh, c'mon... aren't you looking forward to FCA: DANCE ?

I'm waiting for:

FINAL CRISIS OF CONSCIENCE: The End of DiDio-tic Days

Yeah, I don't know what DC is thinking in starting this many 6-issue minis in the same month starring C and D level characters. (who really wants six issues of the Human Flame or the new Tattooed Man, let alone Super Young Team...?) They could probably condense all of them into a 4-issue mini if writers these days didn't drag everything out so much.

I just have to say, regarding to C and D level characters, Animal Man.

I'm excited by the Super Young Team. And Matt Sturgis writing the Human Flame- that has appeal. And for anyone wondering what kind of treatment a 6 issue mini can be, let me just point out the current Vixen mini. It's showing what a character can do when written well.

Comparing FC to COIE really showed how poorly the myriad of characters in FC were written. At least in COIE, we got a little sense of who most of the characters were. Sure, some of them just showed up in a panel or two, but at least most of them were named! In FC, you just get a whole bunch of characters standing in panel and doing nothing. After a while I gave up trying to figure out who was under which anti-life helmet, and just tried to enjoy the pretty, colorful costumes.

The heroes' storming of Bludhaven? Did NOT hold a candle to any of the battles in COIE. I just found myself not caring (although the one panel with Kimiyo Hoshi perked me up a little).

Oh, and what was the point of Libra gathering the villains? Didn't they just get everyone brainwashed by the anti-life equation anyway? If they did that to a) keep the villains busy/occupied so they'd be less likely to resist, or b) keep the heroes occupied, for the same reasons, that seemed pointless because the damned equation was sent through the Internet anyway! Oracle and Mr. Terrific were barely able to stop it. What a load of crap.

The only emotion I felt (other than confusion and annoyance) was a liiiiiiiiiiiiittle bit of despair when we first saw the anti-life equation taking over the world. After that, it was just a load of "whatever".

Oh, and what was the point of bringing in the 50 Supermen, Zoo Crew and Pax Dei? So they could intimidate Mandrakk into submission? Cause they didn't do jack squat!

I completely agree with you, double-chinner.

And speaking of the draft, here's another scene which COULD have been awe-inspiring. Instead, Alan just says, "I'm proud of all of you" or something like that.

That's it? That's freaking it? Granted, maybe Morrison didn't want to waste space explaining things the readers should have known, but it would've been nice to see everyone coming up with a game plan or something. So there would have been a point to this whole thing.

Okay, so MAYBE the gathering led to most of the heroes escaping from the anti-life equation. I dunno. Still seems like a lot of them were taken over.

And Tawky Tawny beating Kalibak? Priceless. I actually liked it (although I had to order the little voice screaming in my head that this was another improbability on top of all the other improbabilities being shoved down our throats )

And I'm a bit ashamed to say that it took me five minutes to realize that it was Joan, Linda and the kids who were with Ollie, Dinah, Babs etc. at the "Hall of Justice (League HQ). I blame it on the writing. And why wasn't Iris with them? Okay, it was so Barry could use truuuuuuue looooove to bring her back. Or I guess whichever hero saved Joan and Linda didn't bother to get her because her husband was dead, unlike the husbands of the other two

I'll give you a beer, but I'll be damned if I can even attempt to give you an explanation

Oh, there are Spin-Off series? I haven't even noticed them. Must have developped a blind spot for anything tainted by Morissons "genius"...

As for Invisible Brainiac, you're totally right. I did not care a single bit about what was happening as well. The confusion I felt, but I did not care for the heroes (?) featured cause the one half, I did not know at all, and the other half, I met during my 30 years of DC reading but could hardly recognize. And if I don't care for the characters, I don't care for the story, and that's something that I definitely witnessed a lot with Morissons stuff.

I recently read some Superman: All Star Superman 1-6 by Grant M., and Action Comics 837-840 by Geoff J..

What can I say? Morissons writing left me cold... again... his Superman was far out of this world and I did not care one single bit if he was dying. Johns Superman actually made me care, which surprised me cause I never was a big Supes fan. His writing somehow drags me into the story and I really get excited to see how it will be turning out.

Why that is, I have no idea. But it's a definite fact and reason enough for me to never get in touch with any of Morissons gibberish again.

Three of the four spin-offs interest me (The Human Flame holds no interest), but the writers are unknown quantity for me, and there's been poor results when others run with Morrisson's ideas in the past. Since they're all six issues, it's like DC is inviting us to trade-wait on them anyway.

Yeah. Even though I was pretty disappointed in Final Crisis itself and was initially completely turned off by the thought of 4 six-issue spin-off series' that would remind me of that mess, now that I've seen what they're all about I'm actually *really* interested in them.

They all sound really different and intriguing to me. If I wasn't completely broke I'd probably buy all 4 of them. As it is, I'll probably just stump for whichever gets the best reviews and then pick up the other 3 in cheap back-issue bins or something.

I know I'm late to this party, but just wanted to share my views of Final Crisis.

It was a really awesome story, not necessarily a good event in terms of organization, which does not bother me as much. As I was reading the other posts for this thread, I can totally see why people were not comfortable with the idead that this was not a 'Crisis' like the prior two. The rationale explanation, at least me, is that Morrison and DiDio wanted this event to be unique among the Crisis trilogy, and there's nothing wrong with trying something new. Mad props to Rouge for the annotations. Worldie after my own.

My favorite bits and pieces from Final Crisis:

1) Batman lives only he's at the start of time
2) Darkseid dies and becomes the seed of New Genesis in the emergence of the Fifth World
3) The Monitors retrench from the Orrery
4) Superman rebuilds the Miracle Machine (from memory, I might add) and saves the Multiverse
5) The Flashes are back, reversing their deaths from the prior crises
6) Everyone on Earth now knows of the existence of the multiverse, which gets rid of the 800 lb. gorilla for future stories involving the Multiverse

And I know having and establishing our own opinions is subjective. But what do not get is why people call this s@#%. It is a different kind of writing styling that does require the reader to think and read above their usual frame of reference. And if you do not like that, that's kosher, but for what FC was, it was a well-constructed and metatextual story.

Like ververy and Blacula, I was not a fan of any Kirby concepts until finishing this series. And sometimes people would gloss over it because of their own personal indifference. Now I am fully immersed in all things Kirby with my Fourth World Omnibus.

Those were my two-cents. Although this not a form of elitism, for all the flamers out there, instead of getting angry at the event for not meeting certain expectations, you can ask the other worldies on the forum for help understanding it. Here's also a CGS episode with complete annotations for Superman Beyond 1-2 and Final Crisis 7:

http://www.comicgeekspeak.com/episodes/files/cgs-episode573.mp3

Okay. Read this finally. I had only grabbed the first issue all those years ago, and due to budget constraints...never went any further with it.

I honestly liked it. I read the collected hardcover, and know that there are at least three other comics (2 Superman & Resist) in it which I believe help the overall understanding of the story.

The story itself is a high concept to be fair, and requires a level of just going with it on the first read through. I have it for another 3 weeks, so I plan on reading it again and trying to boil my thoughts doen on a few of the things involved.

I can see how, and would have been in that same camp at the time, many peoplel were frustrated with this series...sinceit required several one offs to get the full story. That I find poor on DC's part...which is one of the things I have an issue with the last several years worth of crossovers from both Marvel and DC...too much happens outside the main evert that have an impact on the main narrative.

More thoughts later...