Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Avengers Thread

This was a fun time to be an Avengers fan. Great stories and lots of great interaction among the members. I always liked Black Panther and the Black Knight as well and Hawkeye was always a favorite (as were Black Widow and the Swordsman who would come along shortly)

How did the Green Lantern feud play itself out, and who were the writer and editor involved?

I think Englehart, in the one Yellowjacket story he was able to write before he quit Avengers, had a good handle on Hank, and if he had stayed he would have found a way to make Yellowjacket work. Claremont wrote both Yellowjacket and Wasp very well in Marvel Team-Up. It's really Shooter's fault for hijacking the character and using him to deal with his own demons (IMO, Shooter is the godfather of the Chuck Austen school of superhero writing). Gruenwald made things even worse when he ordered Englehart to turn Hank into the WCA's non-superpowered mascot. Stern's morally ambiguous female Yellowjacket II had the potential to develop into yet another reformed villain if only Stern hadn't been fired from Avengers and black-balled at Marvel for almost 10 years. Harras did a fantastic job of bringing Hank back to superheroics as Giant-Man (the Avengers had a major crisis and needed all the help they could get, so Hank suited up and drank down the giant juice -- simple but brilliant). But when Busiek put the character through an endless series of contortions to bring him back to Yellowjacket, it only proved that Yellowjacket's moment had passed. In an Englehart chat I participated in last year, he said that a few years ago, he submitted a proposal to Marvel for a mini-series that would have given Hank a brand-new superhero identity. Marvel, in their "infinite wisdom" (HA HA) never even responded. I'm holding out for Hank to survive Civil War and to eventually -- finally -- have his day of glory.

It's sad that none of the young-ish hot-shot writers of today seem to have a clue on how to do it right.

Avengers Volume One # 61-88

With Janet and Hank on their honeymoon, the remaining three members -- Vision, Black Panther, and Hawkeye -- spent their time helping Dr. Strange battle the forces of nature (literally) in # 61 and foil an attempted coup in the Panther's kingdom of Wakanda in # 62. These would be John Buscema's last issues for a year, and sadly they would also be the last time Buscema was inked by Klein, who died not long after.

In # 63, Thomas brought back Janet and Hank, but the focus of the new story arc was squarely on Hawkeye, who decided that the team needed muscle and he should be it -- so he became Goliath II. IMO, this was one of the worst decisions Thomas ever made, because it completely took away the character's everyman appeal. But that's only one reason I'm not fond of this story -- there's also the matter of Gene Colan's art (he was perfect for Dr. Strange, but completely wrong for Avengers).

The next story (# 66-68) was better -- Vision was revealed to have a pre-programmed command to rebuild his evil creator into Ultron-6. The first two parts were drawn by Barry Windsor-Smith, and as heavy as the Kirby and Steranko influences are, I personally like this early work much better than his more celebrated art of the 1970s (I do like the X-Men stories that he did in the 1980s). The artist on the finale (who would also draw the next four issues) was Sal Buscema, younger brother of John Buscema. Sal lacked John's draftsmanship and was better at drawing monsters than people; his real strength was energetic storytelling, but that showed up more in later work, such as Defenders and Hulk.

Thomas then came up with one of his most epic stories (# 69-71), as the Avengers became caught up in a time-space adventure involving Kang and a new villain, the Grandmaster. The story heavily featured the Black Knight, which is always good.

I don't much care for most of the stories that followed -- after introducing Zodiac (one of my least favorite villain teams), Thomas pulled a Denny O'Neil and started addressing "relevant topics" such as racism, feminism, and others. Still later, he introduced the Squadron Supreme, and my opinion of Marvel's JLA analogs is the opposite of my opinion of Marvel's LSH analogs, the Imperial Guard (in other words, I don't like them). The only issues between # 72 and # 87 that I like are # 75, # 76, and # 84 -- all three featuring Arkon, the interdimensional barbarian warlord. Thomas & John Buscema always had a flair for this sort of character. As added bonuses, # 75-76 bring back Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch, while # 84 features the Black Knight and has my favorite Avengers appearance of the Enchantress.

# 88, a Hulk crossover co-plotted by SF writer Harlan Ellison, was a step back in the right direction. But Thomas was just getting his second wind, and the real event was just around the corner -- the Kree-Skrull War!

Re: Buscema hating doing superheroes.

I wonder if that is why half the team on his 2nd run looked like Conan characters?

Hercules, Namor, and the Black Knight. And then Thor ofcourse. And also one of my favorite arcs (if not my fave) Assault on Olympus. There was like 2 or 3 costumed superheroes in that...the rest seemed to be out of a sword & sorcery type book.

Assault on Olympus is a favorite of mine, too. The art doesn't remind me of sword & sorcery, though. I think it suggests what Wonder Woman's book might have looked like if John Buscema had ever drawn it -- Athena herself looks like Wonder Woman in battle armor. (Buscema actually did draw Wonder Woman once, when she guest-starred in the second Spider-Man/Superman crossover.)

Ooooh... we're moving toward the early 100's, when I first started reading the Avengers

Avengers #61-88

We’re of like minds (again) about the majority of this little run, Stealth. While there were some high points, this kind of seemed like a lull b/t Thomas & Buscema’s excellent 50’s, and the upcoming Kree/Skrull War. I have to say, I really enjoy your comments on the artists (pencilers *and* inkers), as that is something I generally put towards the back-burner when I read comics.

Some random thoughts:

- I love those two ‘Hank & Jan are on their honeymoon issues’. I just really liked the Black Knight & Dr. Strange guest-starring and seeing Wakanda, but really, its just the cool chemistry b/t the Panther, Hawkeye and the Vision that makes these issues so great. In fact, this chemistry would continue to peak my interest even when the actual plots aren’t that great.

- I’ve always hated Hawkeye becoming Goliath II, and thought this was kind of a bonehead move. Also, it just made things more confusing when looking at it via historical hindsight. On a side note, I agree with most of your assessment of Hank Pym’s treatment over the years in regards to his various identities. I don’t mind him all *that* much as Yellowjacket, but prefer him as Goliath. I’m hoping for the chance for him to finally shine too.

- The Ultron-6 story was pretty awesome! With Iron Man and Thor being there to show just how serious a threat Ultron had become. Great, great cover to the issue where he’s blasting back the entire line-up. I’d say this story cemented Ultron’s place as ‘Co-Best Avengers Villain’ besides Kang.

- I really like that Gene Colon Swordsman issue. I never really looked at it from the art point of view, but the reason I love it is because this issue (#66) was the one Avengers Comic my Dad and I were missing for almost my entire childhood until he finally got it when I was about 18. Now I kinda have a soft spot for it once I finally got to read it.

- The switch from Yellowjacket and the Wasp to the return of Quicksilver and the Scarlett Witch is interesting to me, in that I don’t mind it despite my love of Hank & Jan, and I feel like Avengers fans of the day wouldn’t have either. Despite Pietro’s cool appearance in Spider-Man in b/t their departure and return, the two hadn’t really appeared in awhile and it was a worthwhile trade to get them back in return for giving up Hank & Jan. It also shows an early example of how rough it is to keep married characters interesting for long runs at a time.

- I too have never cared much for the Squadron Sinister/Supreme. Are the Lethal Legion issues during this period? Man, my Avengers memory isn’t as sharp as my Spidey one . Any team with Man-Ape, the Living Laser and the Grim Reaper on it is one I might actually route for!

- I love how the Valkrye became such an instant sensation that they went and made her an actual character in that Enchantress issue. IIRC, that takes place in Salem, right? Around this time lots of Marvel comics took place in Salem for some reason or another (I suspect Rascally Roy was behind this). Thor was fighting Loki and the Absorbing Man in Salem in his own series roughly around this time.

- I remember thinking that the Harlan Ellison story wasn’t really so great, especially after they had his name all over the cover. Much cooler, in this young fan’s opinion, was that the Falcon was actually guest-starring and the Hulk was back. I haven’t read this story in years though.

"These would be John Buscema's last issues for a year, and sadly they would also be the last time Buscema was inked by Klein, who died not long after."

I just read how Carmine Infantino wanted to "improve" the look of Mort Weisinger's books, and so got rid of several of the older inkers-- INCLUDING Klein. WAS HE OUT OF HIS MIND??? DC's BEST inker (in my opinion) and he went to Marvel (and took a pay cut) for THAT reason? D'ja ever feel like some people just get promoted above their best station?

"there's also the matter of Gene Colan's art (he was perfect for Dr. Strange, but completely wrong for Avengers)."

I understand Gene Colan, Barry Smith & Sal Buscema were all "filling in" because Stan wanted John Buscema for something else... SILVER SURFER? That ONE decision really showed a serious lack of judgment & reveals an unfortunate moment of out-of-control ego. NO ONLY was Jack Kirby offended that he was never even told about the book until it hit the stands (HE wanted to do a Surfer series himself), NOT ONLY did the SS book NOT SELL in the long run (too pointlessly downbeat & depressing), but AVENGERS had to "put up with" lesser or inappropriate artists in the meantime as a result. That said, I feel Sal's BEST work was in the late 60's/early 70's-- he seemed to slowly decline, PROGRESSIVELY, over the course of his entire career. But when John would come back to replace Sal, you could see it was ALWAYS a huge improvement.

By the way, anybody ever get the feeling Jim Shooter had Gene assigned to THE AVENGERS much later, JUST because he was so wrong for the book, and JUST so he'd have more of an excuse to get rid of him (or harass him so much he'd leave on his own)?

"How did the Green Lantern feud play itself out, and who were the writer and editor involved?"

AVENGERS was never QUITE as badly treated as GREEN LANTERN. AVENGERS kept having good periods interspaced with the bad, despite the continual turn-over of writers & artists. When Gruenwald & Stern took over in the wake of Shooter's DISASTROUS 2nd run (which was more ego-trip than anything else) the book settled into a LONG, stable, creative period, only derailed when Gruenwald decided HE wanted to write the book himself (by having a writer who'd do what HE wanted).

GL had been messed with since the mid-60's. The book lost its whole focus, its original creative team, most of its supporting cast... and as a result (I feel), its sales. NO WONDER as a last-ditch desperate move, they let Denny O'Neil do whatever the HELL he wanted. Like the abrupt change on X-MEN (also drawn by Neal Adams-- HMM) it didn't help, and the book was canned. Over the years, it was revived, but it never seemed to really find itself again, at least, until Steve Englehart (HMMM!) came in (in mid-story) and "fixed" things. Steve has said his run on the book was the FIRST time sales ever DOUBLED. I believe him! Then some FOOL decided because GL was now so popular, they'd use it to "anchor" the ACTION COMICS WEEKLY anthology. Steve wasn't interested, and WALKED. The series-- PLUMMETED, worse than ever. Some editors should have their brains examined. Slowly, GL recovered, but near-irreparable damage (over decades) had been done.

Andy Helfer (who oversaw Englehart's run) took over from Denny O'Neil, causing writer Jim Owsley to leave, as his views differed so drastrically from Helfer's, and he felt their friendship was more important. So in came new writer Gerard Jones. HE looked at the train wreck Hal Jordan's career had become, and wanted, right then and there, to replace him with a NEW character (just as Roger Stern had done with STARMAN!!!). But Helfer convinced him not to, and together, they hatched a LONG-TERM scheme to bring Jordan's career some "closure", and eventually, after he'd come to terms with his life and those pesky Guardians, have him replaced with a new, younger character. It didn't work out that way.

I read most of Jones' run. I liked a lot of it-- the way Hal "came back" from the brink, the way the GLC began to come back together, the way they had different artists rotating on stories focusing on the different GLs. But his "Mosaic" story made NO SENSE at all to me, and made me drop the book-- until Jones wrote me a PERSONAL letter asking me to give it another try! Wow. I did. It got better.

After coming back from the brink, the book was successful once again. And THAT's when Helfer (perhaps foolishly) moved on, and his assistant-- Kevin Dooley-- took over. For about a year, thinkgs continued nicely. There was a GL-Flash crossover done as a loving tribute to the 60's. There was a story about a cosmic villain named "Entropy" that I SWORE was intended as a new origin for The Time Trapper (no dice). But then Dooley started flexing his muscles. Hal began appearing ALL-- OVER-- THE-- PLACE. There were like 4 GL books, plus Hal making guest-appearances like crazy. They were doing with Hal what they'd been doing with Superman & Batman. And I felt they were KILLING him with over-exposure. Instead of more success, apparently, it had the reverse effect--sales DROPPED!!! I kept hanging on, but even I was getting sick of it. And they lost ALL their regular artists, and started having different guys on almost every issue.

One more annoying thing about this run was, there seemed to be some running sub-plot mystery going on that was very vague, and left unresolved. Turns out I was right. Jones intended to bring this to a head with his next story: "EMERALD TWILIGHT". He never got the chance.

At the LAST minute, Dooley decided to change the direction of the book-- and the character-- a direction Jones had been working toward for 4 WHOLE YEARS (and which he never would have done in the first place, had it not been for Helfer's urging). Just as Gruenwald had tried to make Stern write a story Stern felt would violate every character involved, Dooley wanted Jones to tell a story that would violate not only Hal, but EVERYTHING he'd spent 4 WHOLE YEARS building toward. He refused. Dooley replaced him. The result was appallingly badly written, and divided GL fans for the next DOZEN years or more. Jones soon got sick of the whole industry, and pretty much dropped out. Dooley-- who had the NERVE to proclaim himself "GL's #1 fan" in a GL Archive book-- EVENTUALLY left DC. Sometime after he did, other, saner heads finally prevailed. Hal Jordan is back, and in the process, EVERY SINGLE GL character is better-written than they've been for ages-- maybe ever. But it never should have HAD to happen that way.

Cobie, the Lethal Legion issues are indeed in that run -- # 78 & # 79. I skimmed over those issues just now, and I think I may have underrated them; and as Prof mentioned earlier in this thread, John Buscema & Tom Palmer really outdid themselves on # 79 -- I had forgotten that several drawings from that issue were used in "How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way." Regarding the Valkyrie/Enchantress issues, # 83 (the one I don't like for revealing Thomas's ignorant views on feminism) does not take place in Salem, but in Rutland, Vermont; real-life Rutland resident Tom Fagan, a comics fan, threw Halloween parties which were often attended by comics fans and comics pros; Thomas wrote Fagan into this story as a tribute. # 84 (the issue I do like), takes place in Arkon's dimension, where Enchantress had fled to after her plans in the previous issue were foiled.

Prof, thank you for the Green Lantern info. Between Mike Grell's departure from GL/GA in the 1970s, and Hal Jordan's return in the 2000s, I only have a few issues -- all of them from the early 1980s, by Mike W. Barr and Keith Pollard, because I'm a fan of both creators. It's obvious I didn't miss much, although sometimes I think of trying the Steve Englehart issues (because I've heard so many good things about them) and the Marv Wolfman issues (because at the time, Wolfman was on his New Teen Titans hot streak); in both cases, the reason I haven't tried them yet is because of Joe Staton.

Spellbinder, since the Avengers early 100s are special to you, I'll dedicate the next two reviews to you.

Avengers Volume One # 89-108

For Princess Crujectra

The first few issues of this block are mostly setup for the Kree-Skrull War, and what's amazing is how busily plotted and relentlessly paced they are: Captain Marvel! Rick Jones! Kree Sentry #559! Ronan the Accuser! Annihilus! Goliath II enslaved! Yellowjacket and three fellow scientists devolved into cavemen! An evil politician stirring up anti-alien hostility! Captain America, Iron Man, and Thor disbanding the Avengers! (Or did they?) Even though the art in these issues shows just how mediocre Sal Buscema can be when he's rushed, Thomas's writing definitely rises above the art.

Of course, the main destination of all this buildup is to Neal Adams' brief but astonishing Avengers run. It's hard to choose the best Adams work out of everything he did for both Marvel and DC in the late 1960s/early 1970s, but I always end up coming back to these Avengers issues. They are simply awe-inspiring in all senses: draftsmanship, dynamics, anatomy, design, storytelling, etc. Credit must also go to Tom Palmer for his peerless inking and coloring, and to Roy Thomas for keeping Adams's wild ideas coherent and cohesive. I first read The Kree-Skrull War twenty years after it was originally published, when I bought back issues of the 1980s Prestige Format reprints -- it was still impressive after all that time, but I can only imagine how spectacular it must have looked when it first came out! Space opera like it had never been done in comics before!! And I think it's worth noting that almost all of the main elements of this story -- Kree, Skrulls, Inhumans, Ronan, Super-Skrull, Annihilus, Supreme Intelligence -- had debuted a few years earlier in Fantastic Four. That's why it really annoys me when people complain about the Shi'ar and the Starjammers being brought into Avengers during the Harras/Epting era. So what if those characters and concepts had been mainly associated with the X-Men? IMO, history repeated itself with Operation: Galactic Storm -- another extraordinary space opera in Avengers, and this time with a proper third act.

Re: The Kree-Skrull War's lack of a third act, it's truly a tragedy that Thomas and Adams had some kind of falling out, resulting in Adams walking away and Thomas scrambling to wrap the story up. (Prof, do you know any details about what went down here?) At least they got John Buscema to draw the final installment, such as it was. # 97 would be the last Buscema/Palmer issue for more than a decade, and I think it could be seen as marking the end of an era for Avengers.

If Thomas had left at the same time as Buscema and Palmer, it would have been a good thing, because I feel that Thomas's last few issues were mediocre and uninspiring. The Hercules/Ares/return of Hawkeye story (# 98-100) seems to me like it was hastily put together, and Barry Windsor-Smith's art doesn't help any. I've always been turned off by BWS's tendencies for excessive detail and ugly faces, especially since his worst flaws became hugely influential (i.e. the Image founders). Thomas's final four issues were all unremarkably drawn by Rich Buckler: # 101 is a second Ellison collaboration, but it doesn't work at all; # 102-104 are a deadly dull wrap-up of the Sentinels plot thread from Thomas's second X-Men run, ending his Avengers run with no real sense of resolution.

That's why I find Steve Englehart's first four issues (# 105-108, Avengers vs. Savage Land mutates, Grim Reaper, HYDRA, and...the Space Phantom, unseen since Avengers # 2) so refreshing. He quickly wraps up almost all of Thomas's dangling threads, especially regarding the relationship between Scarlet Witch and Vision. In fact, Wanda comes across as more assertive and more confident than she ever had previously -- Englehart was truly the first male comic book writer who knew how to write convincing superheroines. And the art in these issues is excellent: John Buscema pencils the first one, with capable inks by Jim Mooney; a large number of pencils handle the next three issues (Rich Buckler, George Tuska, Jim Starlin, Don Heck), with Dave Cockrum's inking as the common thread (not to leave out Joe Sinnott, who also contributes some inks). I think Englehart really sells himself short when he criticizes his early Avengers issues -- they're not perfect, but they have such vitality.

I started buying GL regularly when DAVE GIBBONS-- my favorite DOCTOR WHO artist-- got on board. This was the same issue Len Wein took over as both writer & editor. As he'd done on THOR (at the END of his run), Len decided Hal had been in space too long, and wanted to do the latest in the then-trendy "back to basics" fad of having Hal, back on Earth, back at Ferris, back with Carol, back fighting 3rd-rate super-villains. (He's an intergalactic COP, for God's sake!!!!!) Okay, it was actually not that bad, and anything drawn by Gibbons is bound to be a notch above the usual. But Len pulled this STUNT wherein Carol, despite her knowing Hal for decades' worth of comics by then, STILL could not get it thru her worse-than-Lois-Lane head that being GL was important to Hal, it was who he was. So she gave him this "ULTIMATUM" (in the worst possibly way that no doubt made feminists embarassed to have her on their side). HER-- OR THE GLC. And the IDIOT picked HER. The issue he turned in his badge and gun ("Mr. Garrison!! Teachers aren't ALLOWED to carry guns!" "Oh, I guess I can keep it, then?") Arisia had tears in her eyes, because, as it ought to have been obvious by then... SHE was in love with Hal. (NOT in a POSESSIVE, "You're MINE, you DO what I SAY or ELSE!" kinda way... shudder) The Guardians-- who'd already STUCK it to Hal by forcing him to spend an entire year in space away from Carol, NOW decided to STICK it to Hal AGAIN-- by very publicly appointing the hot-headed JOHN STEWART (who Hal did not like at that point) as his replacement!

AND... just as when Len broke up the FF in a year-long story and jumped ship in MID-story... Len had Hal quit being GL and-- wanna guess? Anybody?

Yep-- Len jumped ship-- IN MID-STORY.

Decades later I read that Dave Gibbons wanted to do space stories. When he discovered that just about the ONLY thing Hal wanted to do was stories on Earth with Carol & Ferris Aircraft... well, he got disgusted and pretty soon, decided to leave. Len, hearing the news, decided (FOR NO DAMN REASON!!!) that, HEY, he'd leave too! (Grrrrrrr.)

Andy Helfer got onboard sometime around here. Thru the most REMARKABLE luck, there was exactly ONE fill-in issue. A month later... Steve Englehart & Joe Staton debuted. Steve recently said that Andy told him, do what you what, it doesn't matter. Whatever anybody does, the sales never change on this thing. Steve-- DID what he wanted. The sales-- SHOT UP!!! Damn.

Steve did his homework, FIGURED OUT Carol Ferris from decades of inconsistent and incompetent writing-- and then, GOT RID of her. Shortly after, Hal was a GL again. Shortly after, Arisia declared her love. I swear, Staton's art may be what you'd call "cartoony"-- but when he drew HER, it was like magic. I know he must really love that character. (He was the 1st one to ever draw her, after all, back in the TALES OF THE GLC mini-series Mike Barr wrote.) Now I know some people over the years got VERY uncomfortable, in the same way people got uncomfortable about Jerry Lee Lewis and Wynona Ryder in the movie GREAT BALLS OF FIRE... but dammit, THOSE are among my all-time favorite GL comics!!!

Steve's a LOT more forgiving about certain artists than I am. I did NOT like the guy who filled in for Joe when they were doing MILLENNIUM. For that matter, I found MILLENNIUM one of the most UNREADABLE things ever perpetuated. It took company-wide-crossovers to several whole new levels that we've ALL been suffering for since, and to no good results I ever saw. And right after, ACW happened... YEESH. Before you knew it, Denny "drag 'em thru the mud" O'Neil got his DIRTY paws on the series again (as editor) and he started his run by MURDERING John Stewart's wife in the very 1st episode. Son of a *****!

You know-- generally, stuff like this can't happen when creators OWN the characters they create. Maybe that's why I've slowly gotten more and more disgusted with Marvel & DC over the last 2 decades.

I bought the entire Neal Adams run of AVENGERS-- plus the Barry Smith issues-- as back issues about 25 years ago. Sometime later, the "deluxe" reprints came out, and while nice, a lot of detail & mood was lost in the reprinting.

I've read the story (known at the time as the "Skrull-Kree War"-- they renamed it after-the fact!) about 4 times now. You know, for me, it keeps getting worse. I'm not sure if it's the art, in which so much of the plotting and storytelling is tied up, or Roy's sense of plotting, or just Roy's mock-Shakespearean style of dialogue-writing (why he never worked on ST:TNG is beyond me). The whole thing doesn't really "take off" for me until they head INTO SPAAAAAAAAAAAAACE!!!! Then-- WOW.

I now tend to feel that Buscema is a more coherent visual storyteller than Adams has ever been, but having Buscema do a chapter here and the finale there renders a lot of the flow incoherent. From what I've read, Adams kept BLOWING DEADLINES. And, having done so, had the NERVE to be offended when they got Buscema to fill in for him. Which in turn, led to him leaving early (though, I'm not sure anybody but Adams & Thomas had any inkling the story ended before it was meant to at the time).

I only just got all the issues I was missing via ESSENTIAL AVENGERS this year. I'm of the opinion that the 2nd Sentinels story was SO intense, SO volatile, SO wrenching, that it should have been the LAST Sentinels story-- EVER. So having Roy do a 3rd one, and so quickly, was the startt of a BAAAAAAD trend. (For decades, I thought Dave Cockrum's Sentinels story was the 3rd one-- and that THAT should have been the last one, EVER. How many have there been since-- 200? 300???) At least Joe Sinnott's inks were nice.

Roy's dialogue got more and more annoying. When Englehart debuted, his early issues may NOT have been the greatest thing ever... but even with the very 1st issue, I found the dialogue MUCH more tolerable. WHAT A RELIEF!!! My memories of this are still very clear, because, it's been less than a YEAR since I read them (and for my first time ever).

I just wish the art had been more consistent. Apparently, Marvel writers at the time were "de facto editors". It was often the writer's job to line up the art team back then. Naturally, Stan & Roy had more "pull" than Steve. (This explains the large number of issues where Don Heck, Mike Esposito, Bob Brown, etc., were involved.)

By the way... I also managed to pick up every issue of X-MEN from #49 to the end of the run about the same time. Again, the originals look better than any reprints. And to me, Adams' X-MEN run is VASTLY superior to his AVENGERS run. It just holds together much better.

Avengers Volume One # 109-135 and Giant-Size Avengers # 1-4

For Princess Crujectra

After a bright start, the Steve Englehart era took many twists and turns on its voyage to pure brilliance. The 110s and 120s find artists of varying talent coming and going, while the plots and the selection of villains (Dormammu, Loki, Magneto, Ultron, Thanos, and Klaw on the one hand; Imus Champion, the Living Bombs, the Lion God, the Broglodytes and Zodiac on the other hand) are equally uneven. The high point of early Englehart is undoubtedly The Avengers/Defenders Clash, the first -- and one of the best -- multi-issue crossover between two comic books (Avengers # 115-118 and Defenders # 8-11). At the time, Engelhart was writing both books (and at the end of this storyarc, he left Defenders so he could concentrate on improving his work on Avengers.) Secretly manipulated by Dormammu and Loki into fighting each other while searching for the components of a mystical weapon named the Evil Eye, the Avengers and the Defenders eventually team up against the villains, defying them "TO THE DEATH" while the universe is turning into a monster-filled living nightmare. When the smoke clears, the Scarlet Witch is the only hero left standing, and she saves the day! If that's not a major turning point for Wanda, I don't know what is; Engelhart would, from this point on, develop Wanda further into one of the first superheroines with a three-dimensional personality.

Another strong female character would be an original creation of Englehart, who enters the picture in # 112: the mysterious Eurasian martial-arts mistress named Mantis. By # 114, Mantis and her lover, the reformed villain Swordsman have joined the Avengers. As the issues go on, the subplots of Mantis's origin and the Scarlet Witch-Mantis-Vision-Swordsman soap-operatics slowly take over the book, building to the stunning cosmic epic known as The Celestial Madonna Saga (# 129, GSA # 2, # 130-132, GSA # 3, # 133-135, and GSA # 4.) Englehart brings back Kang, unseen for a long time, and firmly establishes him as one the Avengers Top Three villains; his quest for the Celestial Madonna, who turns out to be Mantis, is opposed not only by the Avengers but also by Rama-Tut and Immortus, two of Kang's "other selves". From Earth to Limbo and back, from the return of Hawkeye to the shocking death of the Swordsman, from the origin of the Kree-Skrull conflict to the introduction of the Priests of Pama and the Cotati, from the full origins of Mantis and Vision to the awakening of the Scarlet Witch's full powers, and finally to the weddings of Scarlet Witch & Vision and Mantis and the Cotati-using-the-body-of-Swordsman...this story truly has it all. Even though my sentimental favorite Avengers epic is Harras & Epting's Sersi-Crystal-Black Knight-Proctor Saga, the Celestial Madonna Saga is a very close second, one of the most ambitious stories ever attempted in a superhero comic, and a model for many superhero stories over the last 30 years (including the Sersi-Crystal-Black Knight-Proctor Saga, which has more than a few homages to the Celestial Madonna Saga). And by the way, as long as I'm counting my favorites, I should mention that Operation Galactic Storm takes third place.

Art-wise, this block of Englehart issues has so many artists and is so wildly uneven, it necessitates a paragraph in itself. The high points are: Giant-Size Avengers # 2 (Mantis's revelation and the Swordsman's death) and # 3 (villains: Kang and the Legion of the Un-Living), both spectacularly pencilled by Dave Cockrum -- # 2 is inked by Cockrum himself with a lot of help from Neal Adams and others, while # 3 rises above weak-tea inks by Joe Giella; John Buscema guest-penciling # 124 (villain: Star-Stalker) and # 125 (villains: Thanos's alien armada), with Cockrum inking; Cockrum also inked Bob Brown's last issue, # 126 (villains: Klaw and Solarr). The low points are: basically any issue which Don Heck (who was dealing with personal problems) either pencilled or inked -- Giant-Size # 4 (Heck pencils) looks awful, but it works because of Englehart's brilliant script, so I would say the absolute worst is # 121 (villains: Zodiac) because Heck's inking does the unthinkable by making John Buscema look bad. Somewhere in the middle are: Sal Buscema & Joe Staton's adequate but stable short run, # 127-134 -- Staton, embellishing Sal Buscema's layouts, wisely reins in his cartoony tendencies and sticks to the Marvel house style; Bob Brown's better issues (specifically the Avengers/Defenders Clash and the aforementioned Cockrum issue); and George Tuska's typically bland pencils on # 135.

Finally, Roy Thomas made up for his weak last few issues by scripting some of the Celestial Madonna issues from Englehart's plots, and for writing Giant-Size Avengers # 1 (pencilled by Rich Buckler and nicely inked by Dan Adkins), which posited a possible origin for Wanda and her brother as children of Golden Age heroes Whizzer and Miss America. Considering what a disaster the children-of-Magneto origin turned out to be in the long run, this long-forgotten origin looks better every day.

And to think, I came in on the Zodiac story!

Kang had been gone a while, but not nearly THAT long-- he was involved in the Grandmaster story, after all, the one which introduced both The Squadron Sinister-- and funny enough-- The Invaders! (To THINK, Roy Thomas had to scramble for an entire ANNUAL just to "explain" why, during that fight, Captain America had his triangular shield instead of the round one. SHEESH!!!)

I personally rank Heck-Tartag on GIANT #4 as the all-time low point. This is the one where George Perez said he thought the figures during the wedding scene "looked like Mego toys", and walked into the editor's office declaring, "I can do better than THAT!!!" And, so full of youthful arrogance as he was, he got the chance to prove himself! (And wouldn't you know, his first 2 issues they had Colletta on inks. AUGH!)

Oops!

Thanks for the correction. I've edited my previous post.


Avengers Volume One # 136-149

What could possibly follow The Celestial Madonna Saga? Wisely, Englehart chose to write a modest pair of back-to-back short stories that introduced potential members. It appeared that Wasp and Yellowjacket may be returning, and Moondragon, a guest player in the Celestial Madonna Saga, was thinking of sticking around. But the most memorable of the potential newbies was Henry McCoy, the former X-Man known as the Beast. Englehart's first ongoing superhero gig had been the Beast's short-living solo series in Amazing Adventures. Before Englehart took over, the Beast had become a tortured soul with a monstrous appearance. Englehart tossed all the angst out the window, instead choosing to emphasize the Beast's eloquence, intelligence and wit; in fact, Englehart himself has admitted that the Beast became his fictional alter ego, and that if he could have shown Beast smoking pot, he would have. Despite its quality, the series sold poorly, and Englehart had to wrap up the plot in an issue of Incredible Hulk. And when the opportunity presented itself for Beast to join the Avengers, Englehart seized the day.

The first post-Celestial Madonna issue, #136, was actually a fill-in issue, reprinting one of Englehart's Beast solo stories guest starring Iron Man. Fill-ins would be frequent for Avengers throughout the rest of the 1970s, and into the early 1980s.

Issues #137-138 find the team fighting the cosmic villain the Stranger, who, in a Wizard of Oz twist, turns out to be the Toad impersonating the Stranger. Wasp is injured during the battle, and is hospitalized in #139, where her stalker, Whirlwind, disrupts her recovery. Yellowjacket figures out that Whirlwind is Wasp's chauffer, and attacks the creep. But it is Beast who saves the day, while Yellowjacket grows uncontrollably in #140, necessitating the Vision to phase into Yellowjacket's body with the cure. All four of these issues are unremarkably penciled by George Tuska, made even more unremarkable by Vince Colletta's inks.

# 141 is where Englehart really hits his stride, and with him every step of the way is George Perez, the first semi-regular Avengers penciler since John Buscema. Perez spent the 140s saddled with fair-to-middling inkers: Colletta, Grainger, Esposito, but the raw talent was there from the start, and could never be completely obscured. After thirty years, it's nice to see a Marvel book with art that clearly has been influenced by the best of both Marvel and DC up to that time (just as when Perez moved to DC in the 1980s, it was neat to see DC books with elements of the Marvel house style in the art.)

Englehart's scripting definitely took a turn for the quirky here, with a seven-part storyarc (interrupted by a two-part fill-in by another writer in # 145-146) involving the Avengers uncovering corporate corruption and getting trapped in the Squadron Supreme universe, where DC in-jokes abound (my favorite is Lois Lane and Lana Lang sunbathing on a roof). The highlight of the story is the transformation of Patsy Walker (the breakout star of Marvel's by-then-defunct romance comics line) into a superheroine, Hellcat. Englehart had previously written Patsy into the Beast solo stories, and bringing her into Avengers was one of his best decisions. What can I say about Hellcat as written by Steve Englehart except that it's wonderful, delightful, superlative? Hellcat was the ultimate wish-fulfillment character for fangirls. One of the reasons I don't like J.M. De Matteis is because of what he did to Hellcat when he was writing Defenders -- the character was so damaged that even Englehart himself could not undo the damage when he wrote a Hellcat limited series in 2000.

The secondary plot involves a few Avengers tracking Kang through the timestream all the way to...the Old West?? These scenes, IMO, are where the quirkiness gets too thick -- they anticipate the same problem I have with Englehart's West Coast Avengers run. But as long as Englehart sticks to the primary plot, this storyarc (retroactively titled The Serpent Crown when it was recently collected in a TPB) is pure pleasure.

Just as I consider the end of The Kree-Skrull War to be the end of an era, I also consider the end of The Serpent Crown to be the end of an era. Corporate and editorial politics would lead Englehart to temporarily leave Marvel, and in my opinion Avengers didn't completely recover until the Roger Stern/John Buscema era -- more than 100 issues later!

Looks like I’ve gotten behind on this thread! Glad to see you’re keeping this wonderful thread alive Stealth (and thanks for reminding me! )

Avengers Volume One # 89-108

Set-Up for the Kree Skrull War – Even the issues preceding the Kree-Skrull War are a blast to read, and I really love Captain Marvel and Rick Jones involvement. It really gives you a sense of the Marvel U during this time. Like others, this is one of my favorite times in Avengers history too, and the Kree-Skrull War and later Englehart issues make the Avengers one of the best Marvel comics of this entire era. Stealth, you’re absolutely right in that a great deal of these concepts were old Fantastic Four ones that came into play here and the combination of that and the involvement of Cap, Iron Man and Thor really make this a ‘Marvel Universe’ spanning story.

Phenomenal Neal Adams art! Like said, all too brief!

The Kree-Skrull War itself – what a great, great Avengers story, and the beginning of a long tradition of great space epics for the Avengers. I love that in addition to the current Avengers, the five original members were a part of the story. As usual, IMO, the shining participants among the Avengers were the Vision and Hawkeye, and to some degree the Scarlett Witch. There is no doubt that the Vision emerged as the ‘star’ of the Avengers right around here (indeed, he was Marvel’s most popular character in the 70’s besides Spidey and the Thing). I love the issue with Hawk Pym resuming his Ant-Man persona and going inside the Vision. Really, I can go on and on about the Kree-Skrull War, but its all been said before.

Avengers #100 – even as a kid, I could tell this wasn’t the greatest of stories, but the notion that all past Avengers were included, even the Swordsman made this issue just a blast to read. Seeing Hercules again and returning Clint to Hawkeye (after the AWFUL decision to make him Goliath II) are good and I like the Hulk here, even if the Hulk during this era was the 70’s Hulk aka ‘the strongest one there is’.

X-Men/Avengers Crossover – this story stands out for two reasons that don’t have much to do with the story at all (like Stealth says, kinda dull). First, it is one of those rare X-Men appearances b/t the cancellation of their title (it got better) and the New X-Men, so that’s kind of cool. But more important, this story gets Quicksilver away from the Avengers for the first time that really sets him apart and sets him on the path that he’s taken to this day. Although very subtly, it marks Wanda becoming more of an Avenger and more in touch with the Vision, while Quicksilver embraces more the jerk persona that he’s always shown, as well as take his own path for a long time (despite coming in and out of the Avengers some more). If nothing better, at least these issues show some great beginnings to the Wanda/Vision romance, one of the greatest in Marvel’s history (if only a few current comic book writers would understand that—I’m looking at you Brian Bendis).

Enter Englehart – can you name five better writers than Swinging’ Steve during this era? I doubt anyone can. Englehart changed Wanda and you can feel his impact almost immediately. The Grim Reaper/Space Phantom arc remains one of my favorites, and I love, love, love the cover to #108 (at least, I think its #108). Plus, this has one of my favorite line-ups of all, with Iron Man, Thor and Cap back, and with the Panther, Wanda and the Vision in full force (and Hawkeye before he leaves briefly). The minor tweaks to come will turn the Avengers into one of my favorite line-ups of all time. Also, as Stealth says, great art all around!

Avengers Volume One # 109-135 and Giant-Size Avengers # 1-4

Since so many good comments have been made, I’ll just through in a few more:

- The Black Widow joins for one issue (#109) – this is fun for me (with DD included too), even though Natasha joining in this point in her career is obviously a mistake. But I’m glad she ‘officially’ joined here, since she’s so important to Avengers history. Something else else I did recently was reread all her stories in Daredevil and I’ve fallen in love with the idea of the two of them as a team (just like I love reading Cap when it starred him and the Falcon together).

- Avengers/Defenders – what a fun story. Hulk/Thor, one of the best pair-ups for a fight in all of Marvel. Namor/Cap, which rocked! And smack in the middle of it all: Hawkeye, as usual! Great story.

- There’s a cool little Klaw/Panther story in here somewhere, and despite the impressive line-up of Avengers I liked that the Panther was not forgotten and had some good stories before his eventual departing the team in a few issues.

- Mantis/Swordsman – the entrance of Mantis & the Swordsman truly mark one my favorite eras of the Avengers. I love the character of Mantis, from her attempts to ruin the Wanda/Vision romance, to her role as Celestial Madonna, and how she was so important that Marvel’s best had to defend her time and time again, and how she’s such a strong-willed, kick-ass character that she can do it without them. I also like when she says ‘This One’ . I think the Swordsman here is brilliant and his death is one of the best in Marvel’s history.

- The Celestial Madonna Saga – I have many, many favorite Avenger’s stories, but I don’t think I could ever argue with anyone who said this was the greatest Avengers story of them all. It has *everything*. I mean, really, death, weddings, drama, Iron Man & Thor fitting in seamlessly despite their own comics, Thanos, Kang, Kree, Skrulls…it makes you want to catch your breath. Simply comic book magic. (Just like Stealth, my fave is the Sersi-Crystal-Black Knight-Proctor Saga ). Part of me still cringes whenever Mantis is used b/c I feel most don’t get her right, but an even bigger part of me is waiting with great impatience for her return in some great, majestic story in the future.

- One other thing I love, is when Iron Man and Thor are on the roster and are in charge of the team. Cap being the team leader has been done *so* much, that I find it very refreshing when Iron Man and Thor are involved, and I especially love when these two characters get a chance to interact with other Avengers from other eras. Any line-up with Iron Man, Thor, Wanda, Vision, Hawkeye, Mantis with the Black Panther or Cap is one that will have me in pure glee.

Avengers Volume One # 136-149

These are some fun issues, although like you say Stealth, the quirkiness is in full effect towards the end of Englehart’s run. But this was such a rich time for the Avengers, that some things stand out:

- Beast – IMO, Beast is never better than when he’s with the Avengers, especially Wonder Man, although that would come later. In fact, all these years later (and all these stories) and I’ve never really liked seeing him in an X-Men line-up, even for a Marvel Silver-Age traditionalist like myself. He’s so much fun, and so energetic that he really steals the scenes.

- Moondragon – one of the most annoying heroes in Marvel, and thus, one of the most interesting. Although what she did to Quicksilver come years later is probably the worst, I can’t help but want to strangle her when she’s convincing Thor to leave the team! But yet, its so hard to deny the drama and dynamic she brings.

- Hellcat – Though not one of my absolute favorites, I can see why people would love her completely, and her introduction in the Avengers continued the tradition that Mantis & the Swordsman started of new rich characters of this era joining up. I’m glad she’s back ‘to normal’ these days, although I wish I would see her more.

- Yellowjacket & the Wasp – These are two of my favorites and seeing them return marks another transition for the Avengers. I really like how the Vision inside Hank is a play on the earlier Hank inside the Vision story during the Kree-Skrull War. Its this era here that any one reading the Avengers know that beyond the ‘Big 3’ the real core of the Avengers are Hank, Jan, Clint, Wanda, Vision, and even Black Panther & the Beast. Very rarely would another hero encompass that to the same degree (possibly Wonder Man, and Ms. Marvel to a lesser degree, the Black Knight, etc.)

- Perez – IMO, the greatest comic book artist since Jack Kirby and nothing short of amazing. His earliest issues are spectacular, as are all of his issues in almost any era in almost any comic.

- The Serpent Crown Saga – this saga isn’t really up there for ‘greatest Avengers story’ contender, but its fun and its good enough to maintain enjoyment. Seeing Kang so soon after the Celestial Madonna Saga heightened his sense of villainy, and I really enjoy the notion of the Two-Gun Kid and Hawkeye being such good buddies.

This really is the end of an era, as #150 marked the end of Moondragon & Hellcat in the Avengers, Kirby’s return (which I personally enjoy, although I’m sure some not as much) and a different kind of story-telling in Avengers that wasn’t so sharp when it came to character moments. Definitely though, #98 - #149 mark one specific segment of Avenger’s history, with the Englehart issues being some of the best super-hero team book stories ever told.

"All four of these issues are unremarkably penciled by George Tuska, made even more unremarkable by Vince Colletta's inks."

As if countless issues of Tuska art being inked by Mike Esposito weren't bad enough, there was that period when it seemed almost EVERY issue with Tuska art was inked by Vince Colletta. (sigh) That said, it seems Steve Englehart managed to play to Tuska's strenghts-- "blunt, brute force" tension & action. There was a brief running joke where the characters went on about the problems they faced, and The Beast said, "The super-biz is LIKE that, though." Later, when Hank flies into a fit and yells, "It's madness-- MADNESS!!!" Beast replies, "The super-biz is LIKE that, though." What a welcome relief he was to all the overly-serious pretentiousness!

I, of course, had NO idea of Hank & Jan's long solo-career history over all those years, so the revelation that their chauffer was Whirlwind (formerly The Human Top-- one of Stan's STUPIDEST villains, EVER!!!) meant nothing to me-- nor did the fact that, apparently, Hank & Jan were the ONLY people who didn't know by then (the readers, apparently, were in on it for many years before Hank figured it out-- which in retrospect, makes him seem stupid). I have a fond memory of the scene where he grows to huge size, and as Whirwind is trying to fly away, Hank smashes his fist through the side of a brick building, yelling at the top of his lungs, "YOU OWE ME, MISTER!!!" What a change from the "scientific" type! No doubt stuff like this "inspired" (he said-- SARACASTICALLY) the C*** that Jim Shooter pulled later on-- but it was NOT called for.

George Perez-- incredibly-- was once on my "worst artists" list (along with Bob Hall, Alan Kupperberg, Frank Robbins). He got better though. WAY better. I still recall the Grim Repaer story as THE issue where, for the first time, I didn't see any drawing mistakes. YIPEE! Nice to see someone get the chance to "learn on the job". Nobody ever gave ME that chance...

Like Beast, Hellcat was a delight, and it was a shame to lose her from AVENGERS so soon.

Moondragon is one of those characters that is so "personal" to the one who created her (in this case, Jim Starlin) that MOST writers have never "got" her right. Steve Gerber (in DAREDEVIL, where I first saw her) is, to this day, the ONLY writer I've ever seen who treated her in a way I'd consider proper. Sadly, while for the most part back then it seemed Englehart could do no wrong, with Moondragon, he did, and STEVE-- of all people-- set her on the path that EVERY OTHER hack writer has followed, each one treating her WORSE than the one before!! There was a SILVER SURFER graphic novel that Starlin wrote (in the late 80's, I think) where, for the first time in nearly 15 years, somebody (her CREATOR, of course) wrote her properly again.

I was getting really fed up with the CONTUNUAL fill-ins and changes in creative line-ups. The 2-part "Assassin" story-- written by Tony Isabella (the FIRST time he "calmed down" and treated a story "seriously", without getting over-wordy and joking it up) impressed me-- it just never should have appeared when it did. (In fact, while it was supposed to have been GIANT #5, I had a lot of trouble, based on WHO was a member in that story, trying to figure out WHERE it "fit" in continuity!! Don't you hate that?)

My frustration reached its peak when, after spending an entire YEAR having The Avengers searching for a "new lineup", they finally reached #150-- and most of the issue was a "DEADLINE-DOOM" reprint! AUGH!!!

And then, the NEXT month, they announced Steve's departure! WHAT TH'...??? Was I pissed. I actually wrote Stan Lee a personal letter-- one that contained profanity (something I almost never do), saying I wished something could be done about the "chaos". He actually wrote me back, saying he'd look into it. MANY years later, thinking back on that, I dread the thought that my "request" may have-- in even the smallest way-- led to an obsessive, dictatorial CONTROL FREAK taking over as Editor-In-Chief. (AAAUGH!!)

DECADES after-the fact, I discovered that the "editorial interference" I'd read mentioned somewhere... turned out to be ONE person: Gerry "I'm only in it for the money" Conway. According to Englehart himself, Gerry got on his nerves SO much, he not only quit THE AVENGERS, and Marvel entirely, but planned to quit COMICS altogether (following a "brief" tenure at DC, doing JLA and BATMAN, which he'd more-or-less "warmed up for" when he did The Squadron Supreme and The Shroud). THANK YOU, Gerry Conway!!! (He said, sarcastically)

Back then, Steve was my FAVORITE "current" writer, working wonders on EVERYTHING he touched. Marvel, in a great many ways, was never the same after he left. The chaos caused by Conway and the many gaping voids he left with his abrupt departure (to think, had Steve hung in a few months, Conway would have been gone) left an opening for some really talented writers, like Dave Kraft & Jim Shooter-- though the latter seemed hell-bent on needlessly running characters through the mud, and his run on AVENGERS, partly thanks to Perez' out-of-control scheduling problems (taking on 4 projects at a time and blowing deadlines on all of them) meant the bright spots in AVENGERS came in erratic spurts. Oh well...

I just want to say thanks to Prof, Cobie and of course Stealth for this thread.

I'm really enjoying this and I hope you keep going and cover the ENTIRE history, up to and including, the current run.

Keep up the good work guys.

You're very welcome, WWC. Glad you're enjoying. And the best is yet to come.


Avengers Volume One # 150-177 & Annuals # 6-8

Originally intended as the introduction of the new lineup, issue #150 has only a few pages of new Englehart material, and the rest is a reprint of Lee & Kirby's # 16. And then...exit Steve Englehart, enter a most unwelcome Gerry Conway. Issue # 151 is a real Frankenstein's Monster of a story, with Conway and Jim Shooter both padding out Englehart's final bunch of pages. According to Englehart, the pages that he recognizes as his own are 3, 7, 10, 14, 15, 17, 22, 23, 26, 27, 30, and 31. The new Avengers lineup is a dissapointment: Jan & Hank AND Wanda & Vision in the same lineup? I don't think there should be more than one married couple in a superhero team; Hellcat lets Moondragon talk her out of joining the Avengers (NOOOOOO); Moondragon herself is one of my least favorite characters, so I have no problem with her own exit -- regrettably, it wasn't a permanent exit. And then there's the return of Wonder Man. I must admit I've never really been a fan of Wonder Man, mostly because I associate him with the decline of Avengers.

Perez is gone for # 152-153, where John Buscema and Joe Sinnott substitute with art that is far below both artists' standards -- but who can blame them, when they were working from awful Conway scripts? Conway's first Avengers storyarc, a convoluted mess involving the Living Laser, the Whizzer, and Nuklo, ends in Avengers Annual # 6 (the first non-reprint Avengers Annual since # 2), drawn by Perez with three inkers, all of them failing to do Perez justice. By the time Perez returned to the monthly book in # 154, Avengers had acquired the services of Pablo Marcos, a good inker AND an inker who stayed on the book for many issues. Which makes it a shame that Conway's second (and, thankfully, his last) Avengers storyarc -- this one involving the Sub-Mariner, Dr. Doom, and Attuma -- was just as bad as his first. Perez began missing deadlines again, and so # 156-159 have undistinguished guest pencils -- this time from Sal Buscema (# 156, # 158-159) and Don Heck (# 157). Conway left after # 157, a dreary, confusing stand-alone involving the statue of the Black Knight, went to DC, and wrote five thousand issues of JLA.

# 158-159 is the first storyarc by Shooter, and right from the start he establishes one of his recurring flaws -- the villain (in this case, Shooter's creation Graviton) is too powerful! Shooter's issues during his first run tend to follow a pattern: the Avengers are out-matched by a single, powerful villain who is only defeated by some plot contrivance. In addition to this, I personally find Shooter's Avengers stories to be unpleasantly fatalistic and depressing -- Claremont's X-Men stories have the same flaw, but at least Claremont had a fanciful streak and a certain technical flair, while Shooter had neither. The shame of it is, some of Shooter's early issues have really good art -- Perez/Marcos on #160-162 (villains: Grim Reaper, Ultron) and Byrne/Marcos on #164-166 (villains: Lethal Legion II, Count Nefaria). Perez/Marcos also did the first few issues of Shooter's worst folly, the ten-part Korvac Saga (#167-168, #170-177), which in my opinion is just as self-indulgent as its 80s companion, Secret Wars II. I'm utterly puzzled by the high regard in which the Korvac Saga is held -- IMO, it's badly structured and badly paced, it squeezes in a ton of pointless guest stars, it humiliates the Avengers by having the government take away the team's special privileges (those special privileges are what make Avengers such a great wish-fulfillment book in the first place), it has yet another hopeless battle against yet another ridiculously powerful villain, and it has what I consider one of the worst endings of all time: this story asks us to believe that a murderous sociopath was actually on the side of the angels all along, and it asks us to take the egomaniacal Moondragon's word for it! On a personal level, I consider the TPB of this story (which I got rid of after one reading) to be one of the biggest wastes of money in my life. I think it proves that Shooter needed a strong-willed editor like Silver Age Legion of Superheroes editor Mort Weisinger to produce good work; instead, he was editor-in-chief for most of his years at Marvel, and he indulged himself to a sickening extent. Finally, a few words about Shooter's Mary Sue, government suit Henry Peter Gyrich: I know he's supposed to be a character we "love to hate", but I'd rather eat broken glass than read any story with Gyrich in it -- I read superhero comics to escape from the ugly real-life realities of having to deal with jerks like Gyrich, not to be reminded of those ugly real-life realities!

On a happier note, Avengers Annual # 7 (taking place just before Korvac) is in this block of issues, to remind us of how great an Avengers story can be; this is the next-to-last installment of Jim Starlin's Warlock vs. Thanos saga (it concludes in Marvel Two-in-One Annual # 2, but Avengers Annual # 7 does work as a stand-alone), and it's also yet another excellent Avengers space opera. Avengers Annual # 8 (taking place right after Korvac), by Roger Slifer and George Perez, is a well-drawn but nasty little story about Dr. Spectrum's sentient power-prism run amok.

Avengers Volume One # 178-196 & Annual 9

Following the end of Korvac, there were three fill-in issues in a row, after which Avengers picked up where it left off, this time with David Michelinie as the (nominal) writer. Never quite as horrible as Shooter at his worst, this small block of issues is distinguished mostly for being...undistinguished. Nominal writer David Michelinie is my favorite Iron Man writer (or rather, co-writer with Bob Layton), but his Avengers stories are generally dull superheroics that could take place in any run-of-the-mill superhero team book. Additionally, Michelinie was great at writing non-superpowered women in Iron Man (most notably Bethany Cabe), but when it came to writing Wasp, Scarlet Witch, or Ms. Marvel, he was clueless (I don't include Jocasta because the very concept of this she-droid feels creepy and gross to me).

In fairness, I think a couple of the stories are okay -- the battle against the Absorbing Man in #183-184, and the battle against the Grey Gargoyle in #190-191 (although the latter was plotted not by Michelinie but by then-Avengers-editor and future-Avengers-writer Roger Stern, and it's not the only time that Michelinie would have minimal input). And I think the first appearance of Taskmaster (#194-196) is better than okay, it's a good story that should have been the beginning of something better than what actually did follow. I particularly like the guest appearance of Scott Lang as Ant-Man II (a Michelinie/Layton creation who undeservedly ended up on the C-List and later became cannon fodder, because no writer other than his creators knew what to do with him). I think he had the potential to become to the Avengers what the Atom was to the JLA.

Art-wise, Avengers had John Byrne for #181-191 and George Perez for #194-196, but Pablo Marcos was gone, and a mixed bag of inkers (Joe Rubinstein and Gene Day on one hand, Dan Green and Jack Abel on the other hand) keeps this from being a highlight of either pencilers' career. In Avengers Annual # 9, Don Newton -- an underappreciated artist who did far too little work for Marvel -- takes an adequate Bill Mantlo script (villains: Mistress the super-computer and her robot guardian, Arsenal) and produces by far the best-looking issue in this block, especially the second half with inks by Joe Rubinstein.

This time, I gotta do in "reply" form...


"Jan & Hank AND Wanda & Vision in the same lineup? I don't think there should be more than one married couple in a superhero team"

Any idea-- was this Steve's idea, or Gerry's? Steve definitely had a thing for romance, especially if it involved unusual couples.


"Hellcat lets Moondragon talk her out of joining the Avengers (NOOOOOO); Moondragon herself is one of my least favorite characters, so I have no problem with her own exit -- regrettably, it wasn't a permanent exit."

Again-- Steve or Gerry? (Will we ever know?) Hellcat worked out okay in DEFENDERS, but dammit! she belonged HERE-- where George could draw her!

I LIKE Moondragon. But outside of Starlin & Gerber, NOBODY ever wrote her decently-- so it's easy to see why she's so disliked. (Hey, I'D do 'er.)


"Avengers Annual # 6, drawn by Perez with three inkers, all of them failing to do Perez justice."

I just remember it looks "okay", but the story had no zing, nothing special about it AT ALL.


"Pablo Marcos, a good inker AND an inker who stayed on the book for many issues."

I always considered him too overpowering, though Perez' pencils were so tight they did kinda work well together. If George ever slipped back to "layouts", watch out! This happened during that Byrne 3-parter-- the last chapter is clearly MORE Marcos than Byrne. Marcos actually developed a MUCH "cleaner" ink style when he got on STAR TREK: TNG many years later-- I was shocked!


"Sub-Mariner, Dr. Doom, and Attuma"

I just re-read this as part of my re-reading the entire run of SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP. As bad as THAT book tended to be, this story was possibly it's all-time LOW point! Rambling and confused. This is a "plot"???


"right from the start he establishes one of his recurring flaws -- the villain (in this case, Shooter's creation Graviton) is too powerful! Shooter's issues during his first run tend to follow a pattern: the Avengers are out-matched by a single, powerful villain who is only defeated by some plot contrivance. In addition to this, I personally find Shooter's Avengers stories to be unpleasantly fatalistic and depressing"

It's strange... at the time, Shooter seemed like a step UP from Conway (THANK YOU, Gerry Conway!!). I've never re-read any of that run, and mostly remember it for the chaos on the art front, because George kept blowing deadlines all over the Marvel Universe. It says a LOT about the "Marvel Method" that with Perez, Shooter seemed readable. The "Korvac" story was apparently as much George's idea as Jim's-- a real precursor to CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS and all the horrors that came after (and keeps coming-- AAAAAUGH!!!). But as soon as George left the book, in mid-story, it barely hung together at all. Shooter seemed more concerned with "story" than "good art", as witness the depths of ugly so-called "art" he plumbed in SECRET WARS II-- the all-time worst-ever crap from a guy who was MUCH more talented than that, Al Milgrom. (Perhaps the office atmosphere "inspired" him in a NEGATIVE way? I've seen it happen in drafting!!!)


"it squeezes in a ton of pointless guest stars"

George wanted the projected 12 issues to guest-star "EVERYBODY"!!! Never got that far.


"Shooter needed a strong-willed editor like Silver Age Legion of Superheroes editor Mort Weisinger to produce good work; instead, he was editor-in-chief for most of his years at Marvel, and he indulged himself to a sickening extent."

AGREED. Totalitarian dictator on one hand ("BECAUSE I SAY SO!!!") and someone no so-called "editor" under his employ could ever say "No" to.


"I read superhero comics to escape from the ugly real-life realities of having to deal with jerks like Gyrich, not to be reminded of those ugly real-life realities!"

I've written real-life SCUM into some of my own stories, and I ALWAYS do it to give them the come-uppance they haven't gotten (yet) in real life. As a friend said to me, "What's the point of writing if you don't play God?" Or, as I said to someone recently, "F*** with me, you end up DEAD in one of my stories."


"Avengers Annual # 7"

This was, I believe, the DEBUT of Joe Rubinstein, one of the BEST inkers of the last 30 years, and one of the few I can think of whose work has NEVER declined in quality in all that time! WOW! (Starlin's art had been SUFFERING from lesser inkers for some time before this.)


"Dan Green"

He started out nice, but by here, SUCKED-- BADLY. He was regularly MURDERING the work of every penciller he touched, including Byrne, Perez, Colan. When he took a shot at pencilling o DOCTOR STRANGE, I was blown away. DAMN! Who knew he was THAT good??? (And then he had the nerve to do a DS graphic novel entirely in watercolors! Holy cow!)


"Don Newton -- an underappreciated artist who did far too little work for Marvel"

This past month BACK ISSUE magazine did an issue spotlighting Don, one of my all-time fave BATMAN artists! It included a timeline of his career, and I had NO IDEA he'd made as many passes at Marvel as he had. For whatever combination of reasons, he NEVER seemed to "connect" with Marvel, and repeatedly kept going back to regular, steady employment at DC. Thank goodness! It's just possible that during Shooter's run as Editor-In-Chief, Don was TOO GOOD for Marvel!!!

Reading this thread has really inspired me to buy the Essential Avengers series, but I've just found an add for the complete run of the Avengers on computer disc.
I'm kind of torn.
If I get the disc it will, I imagine, mean I get perfect quality images and if I get the Essentials it will be black and white on poor paper.
The thing is I like READING comics, as opposed to LOOKING at them on a screen - if you can understand my distinction.
I'll probably buy the Essentials but I just wondered what you guys thought.

I love my essentials. I do miss the coloring, but with the early stuff you aren't talking about too much spectacular, there really wasn't much they could do. So it doesn't really take away.

Now see, for me, this is when I loved the Avengers most of all. Maybe it's because I started reading Avengers then as a kid. Maybe it's because I love George Perez. Maybe (probably) because it featured my favorite Avengers line up of all time (Wasp, Yellowjacket, Scarlet Witch, Vision, Beast, Captain America and Iron Man).

In any case, for me these were the best stories ever! Maybe not the most well executed, but conceptually I loved it. The Ultron issues were among my favorites (betrayed by Ant-Man; the dead or alive cliffhanger; the power of the Scarlet Witch; racing through the streets of New York, following Jocasta and the kidnapped Wasp). Those were a great read to a kid still in his early stages of comics reading.

To this day, Avengers 150 to 200 remain my overall favorite run of the series.