Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes What can be done to save the Legion?

Whether you believe (as I do) that the current incarnation of the book is creatively crippled, the sales information cannot be doubted; the Legion is selling near or at cancellation levels. Something else else has to be done, and it's up to you (and you, and you, and you, and me) to do something about it.

What do you think might be done to 1. Make the book creatively satisfying for YOU 2. Financially successful for DC.

Do the two conflict, or do you feel what works for 'you' would work for most?

Go as far as you want -- creative direction, character make up, creative team composition.

I suspect some combination of all three would be necessary to make the Legion successful again, to get eyeballs on the book.

I'll post my thoughts later, so as not to dominate/prejudice anyone else!

New creators - both a writer and artist who have never, ever worked on the Legion before. It's time for a brand new voice & direction. And it would be better that it was one that I don't expect or predict.

More sci-fi oriented.

Tone & atmosphere can shift with stories and plots, but the scope should be large and grandiose. It's 1,000 years in the future and spans all of space. While times can be bright or dark, the epic scale should be present. Likewise, regular stories "bringing things back down to Earth" are needed to compliment such a thing.

A mixture of long form storytelling and short term adventures.

Stop trying to please fans of continuity. Spend at a minimum the first 12 issues (probably better to do 24) telling their story without spending much time on the past. Only then can a reconciliation with the past be worth pursuing.

If you're going to interact with the DCU, don't let the rules of time travel or continuity box you in. Do in on the Legion's terms. Personally, I'd limit it to Superman-related franchises only, but applying those kind of arbitrary rules are the kind of thing that needs to be avoided.

Focus on the new. New adventures. New subplots. New relationships. New villains and antagonists. New political problems. New social turmoil. Take the classic characters, whether 50 or 30 or 10 years old and apply them to new settings and see what magic can develop.

Lastly, find a roster size you can manage. If its 17 heroes, do it well. If you can do 25 heroes, do it. But manage it. The Legion *should* be large, but they need to adjust the cast & roster size so it makes sense to the creative team.

Personally, I'd love to see one of the upcoming sci-fi geniuses at Image or Dark Horse have a shot. Someone like Brandon Graham or Ken Garing, who most people who haven't heard of. Just let them run wild and tell their stories.

Some good points, Cobalt Kid, and I echo them even as I doubt whether some are possible. Specifically, I have my doubts that Levitz is going to be ousted before the book is canceled, but I really believe that to be the one irreplaceable element; he needs to get off the book (Giffen in addition would have made the book more successful, and did, but he's gone now and this is where we are).

Reboot -- In other words, you'll only be satisfied by getting "your" Legion back?

Well crap, Cobie just basically said everything I wanted to say. I will say though that I think a focus on character development would be highly valuable. A few issues here and there that are devoted to showing us who these people are. DC can't just rely on everyone knowing and loving the Legion characters to gain/keep fans. If I were to pick up the books right now I wouldn't like any of the characters because very little of their personalities shows in their interactions. Anyone who writes the Legion needs to infuse a new sense of who they are to really help the book succeed.

Pretty much. I have no interest whatsoever in preboots, threeboots, retroboots, 52boots or whatever. Obviously, much of what Cobalt says holds true - them actually using the version I'm interested in would be a starting point, not the be-all-and-end-all, but it's the only thing that would actually make me give it a chance to begin with.

Gotta agree here. Seeing this version of the Legion again is probably the only thing that might save it for me. I've said it once and i'll say it again: the people who were teenagers in the 90's are a large part of who is buying comics now. We grew up on this Legion, and I think a lot of us would come back to see them again. Just sayin'.

There is no saving the LSH until a Grant Morrison or a Geoff Johns or a Jim Lee decide to work on it. Lesser-knowns won't cut it this time.

The franchise has become a bad rebooted-too-often joke. I am thinking it NEEDS to go away for awhile. I don't want to cheerlead this mess anymore.

When it DOES come back-- for the love of SPACE, just tell GOOD STORIES. WRITING GOOD STORIES ISN'T THAT HARD... people have BEEN DOING IT FOR DECADES... and the LSH HAS SOOOOO MUCH BACKSTORY TO DRAW FROM.... *exasperated arm flailing*

I was going to start a similar thread. How would you end the Legion?

ha! I think Giffen detractors and fans alike can agree on one thing, Giffen can END a Legion. So why not bring him in, do a big four parter where he destroys everything. He could probably do it next issue.

Burn the house to the ground and let it sit until someone has a good idea for it.

After that I would like to see something different, more of an intergalactic police force with espionage, swat, and intelligence divisions. I heard soem writer, not sure if it was Brian Vaughn or not ... but the quote is "comics need to be less comicy". I think it would be nice to have a little less super hero tropes which dont work for me so much sense wise in an advanced civilization with so little crime. Back in Giffs early days ... there were supposed to be like 3 Science police officers for Earth.

So what are the Legion for? Maybe they ARE the ENTIRE police force of the galaxy. explorers and inventors as well. Maybe even a necessary and violent evil of the UP society. unpopular because they represent a savage past.

Maybe they're the parents, not the kids Mr. Waid.

Maybe society has advanced so much, the LSH are the only ones that know how to do anything anymore! heh heh. Anyway, there's a whole slew of new directions to go in ... that aren't cliches.

I also think those crazy Silver Age stories are somehow very appropriate to today's modern "indie" comics scene. They were bizarrely futuristic, bizarrely brutal, and a bit cute(sy), and set in a creative and unknown background.

I would bite off my own arm if it was any tie to present time DC! I always hated the big three and what I loved about the Legion was that it wasn't "DC" so much. My childhood Legion did have Supergirl but that's alright. She was cool.


Otherwise I would almost agree with bringing back DNA's Legion. I HATED and still do HATE the Archie Legion because of the art and the rehashing of stories in a cliffs notes manner but ... DNA had saved it ... brought some excitement to it ... and then it got whited out ... The story feels UNFINISHED.

Whereas as much as I love my "originals" I feel like their story was finished in the 5YL or before.

But after this retroboot fiasco (or are we on retroboot 2 now) I wouldnt want DC's hands on anything really ... much less a Zombie version of something I used to like.

Regarding "big names", I'd be worried they'd bring in more bad than good. Someone like Johns will just tie the Legion closer to the DCnU and try to make it match this ambigous "classic Legion" in his mind. Someone like Morrison will scare as many people as intrigue them. It'd be the classic short term sales bump with subsequent dip.

I think "big name artist" (of which there sure aren't that many anymore) + brillaint, young up and coming writer would be a better combination. Someone who could dig in and man the franchise for a decade.

Too bad DC editorial would probably screw it up. The days of a Big 2 comic gradually going up in sales over a 10 year period of time may be over. Only Image (and Dark Horse) seem to be able to do that anymore. Instead the Big 2 play the marketing game up never-ending sales declines only alleviated by short term bumps.

The trouble is when and if it does come back, the Legion will be another reboot. I would assume the next incarnation will look clear different from the versions most of us hold dear. I'd rather see the changes happen in story than with another cancellation. Perhaps a mass slaughter to most of the team members trying to save the universe would do the trick. Then a new team could be formed from the three or four surviving members.

If I had a choice on who the core of the new Legion would be I'd choose Tellus, Gates, Dawnstar and Lightning Lad. That would give some diversity and yet continuity with what has gone before. Perhaps the next go around could be more sci-fi focused.

I also agree that a big name writer would have to come on board along with a name change of the title to make it feel brand new.

I loaned the trade paperback of the first issues of the 52 Reboot to my friend, who is a major Batman/DC fan because of movies and other media (to the point that she doesn't like watching Marvel products) to see if she could get into it. She appears to have liked the stories, but she told me she preferred reading about characters she already knew because she had to look the Legionnaires up online. We are in a period of media inflation. If people can't understand a comic book they can simply read another one or watch a movie or TV show or play a video game.

I think at this stage it would be instructive to look at Guardians of the Galaxy. Quite a popular title when Jim Valentino was writing it, then went downhill FAST afterward, ending in a scorched-Earth cancellation with the now thoroughly messed-up team stranded in an unknown time in an unknown universe.

And they have literally NEVER been picked up from that. The DnA version of the team was in the present day with a token alternate version of one of the originals. And that's the version Bendis is working with now, sans even the token Vance Astro.

The equivalent here would be a new L.E.G.I.O.N., composed of random DC cosmic characters with a token Cosmic Boy or Brainiac 5, a decade after the Legion's cancellation.

Before seeing Reboot's first post, my face hadn't lit up at a Legion picture in a while.

Whichever version of the Legion is being used though, I agree on the scale. You're exploring the 31st century, best take advantage of all that space and everything in it.

Make them feel like a real team of heroes that have faced death together many times. The halcyon Silver Age captured imaginations because of the "super hero club" feel. They need not be elitist, but they need to have a "family" vibe.



I'd have to disagree on the massive slaughter. Write out characters if you must, but at the very least keep them injured or have them leave for other reasons - these are wonderful characters who could be brought back for future stories. Frankly, I don't think it's so much the team lineup that is a problem, as a lack of imagination in utilizing said lineup to the fullest.

I think killing off Legionnaires is a powerful tool, and one that should be used -- but sparingly. Gimmicky slaughter, without weight or thought, invites gimmicky resurrection. If there is anything that might separate the Legion from the DCU proper, maybe it is that death more often sticks (for what it's worth, I'm not a proponent of dead-means-dead in the fictional universes, and believe the cyclical nature of the superhero existence to be a charming artifact of it's role as escapist fantasy).

DnA's Legion really started coming off the rails when it gave in to gimmick -- cheap deaths and cheaper resurrection with no plan and all shock value. When the creative team was replaced, I wasn't upset; I felt a change was needed.

So I wouldn't agree with the 'kill the Legion' gameplan, at least for me. I DO think Legionnaires should die, or be crippled, or retire as the story demands it, but the best way to ensure that such changes are lasting and meaningful is by making the story too good to ignore, and the 'sidelining' a meaningful part of it.

I'm also going to have to vehemently disagree with the idea that bringing back any previous version of the Legion, or rebooting anew, is the right way to go in the grand scheme (obviously everyone has their wish list, and I respect that for some on this board that is the only way to make the Legion palatable again...I just take issue with the notion that it is true for most). In fact, I'd argue that both of these options are just the kind of continuity rigamarole we (and by 'we' I mean DC comics, which we represent in the confines of this thread and this thread only -- do not start telling Didio what to do, he still doesn't know who you are) should take special effort to avoid.




What we have is what we have. We have the most recognizable, and the most historically successful Legion ever. They are a massive group with a lot of adventures behind them as an institution that fights crime across a galaxy and more, with some old members, some new members, and some part-time new and old members. This is our foundation.

From there, we work out, I think. If we want to make big changes, fine, but it's not with cheesy shortcuts like rebooting continuity or retrobooting continuity. We now have a consistent continuity that we can point people to that is simple and easy; Everything from their first appearance in Adventure to say the end of v3, and all the stuff since that Legion's return in Superman and the Legion and the Lightning-crossover whatever. In pointing people to the Legion, you need not even mention 5YL, Archie, DnA, Threeboot, etc unless they're interested in seeing 'alternate reality stories' of the Legion (and this isn't an issue of taste, but clarity; my personal favorite Legion is the Giffen 5YL, and Legion Lost/Legion Worlds is in my top 5 Legion stories of all time).

(And for the sticklers, I do recognize that not everything makes total sense and certain bits of continuity don't add up, that there might be better breaking points than the end of Vol 3, etc but really are these continuity issues worth quibbling over? Does anyone REALLY care? Does it hurt the integrity of the story, or the history?)

More later!

I also agree with IB / disagree with others on the massive slaughter. There is no need for it. Simply remove them from the cast. The writers don't even need to give the fans an explanation for it. Make them *want* to know. That worked great for the Walking Dead with Morgan, where fans were dying to find out what happened to him...and two years later the payoff was tremendous.

Regarding the preboot / postboot / etc: for years and years and years, all I wanted was for the "original" Legion to return. Even during the postboot, which I absolutely loved, I always in the back of my mind wanted to see the original "preboot" Legion again. During the threeboot, I craved it more than ever.

And then they came back...kind of. And I learned that "kind of" will always be the case. I also learned you can never go home again, an obvious lesson I should have seen coming. Since their return in Action Comics this "original" or "quasi-original" or whatever you want to call it Legion does not feel like the original Legion. And nothing ever will.

I'm afraid that will be the same if the postboot Legion ever came back.

We simply cannot go back again to any era. Those era have passed. Too much destruction reduced things to rubble.

At this point, we can only move on and work / change what we've got.

So I'm done wishing for the original Legion or the postboot Legion, or any type of Legion from the past. Because it'll never be as good as it was and never feel quite right. Instead, I'd rather have something for right now.

The Legion IS, I think, troublesome. A sprawling cast, an unrelatable sci-fi setting, an inability to tie into the crutch of ongoing continuity and guest appearances. These can be great strengths, I think, if executed flawlessly...but, when not, they tend to be weaknesses.

I'm sure it's every writers' dream to get their own corner of the comics universe to play with, unencumbered by the movements of your contemporaries, but those books tend to be a harder sell, short of an obvious lead in (video game tie ins, Smallville). Crossovers sell -- they boost sales. Guest appearances boost sales. The concept of a book 'mattering' to modern continuity, even absent crossovers, seems almost malignantly vital to the survival of any ongoing title (look at Robinson's brilliant Shade maxi-series, which barely had the heat to complete, despite a flawless execution; because it existed on the periphery of DC continuity).

That said, I firmly believe that a high level of execution CAN tip these into strengths; it's just a matter of getting the right balance, and the right approach. Hickman performed a similar feat on "Fantastic Four", which only vaguely related to any ongoing continuity events, and primarily told its own story. Yes, a gimmicky 'event' of its own was required to bring the numbers up to notable levels, and frankly the Legion doesn't have any individual characters with which they could replicate said gimmick, but even before that - and certainly after - sales were at reasonably stable and high levels (for the franchise).

It can be done with the Legion.


I think the elements of a perfect Legion book have been scattered around various attempts throughout the years. The closest, as I see it, was Giffen's 5 Years Later run, but that was perhaps too adult, too impenetrable, too ambitious, and ultimately Giffen and the Bierbaums weren't doing very 'stable' work (moments of complete brilliance, but punctuated by stretches of mediocrity when Giffen wasn't directly involved in either the plotting/dialogue/artwork).

What made Levitz’s contribution so exceptional is that he was planning stories out not just 12 issues, but YEARS in advance, we’ve plots and subplots over the better part of a decade, it seemed. The meticulous detail with which he catalogued his work, mapped his progression, meant that he could rotate the spotlight to various characters, giving each of them their due. And this long term planning allowed everything that happened to feel organic. Characters and character relationships developed over years, with a realistic, measured rhythm. Events never felt like they were done for shock value, or to see what worked, but had been built to over the course of months at minimum. There was a natural, gradual escalation of threat.

No, this isn’t the only thing that made Levitz’s Legion such a success, but it’s the one thing that his Legion had that all others have lacked. His Legion was partially successful because it had a healthy dose of soap opera, which he did quite well. But other Legions have had the same soap opera – most notably the archie legion under Peyer, Waid, etc – and didn’t fare nearly as well, either in the open market or the critical theatre.

Giffen brought with him a genius concept engine, with some extremely forward thinking ideas. It’s clear, especially from their separately done work, that he was the Big Concept guy, more in line with Grant Morrison and Warren Ellis than the traditional superhero writers of the day. His characters were complex, subtle, and often deeply tragic.

DnA’s Legion took a page from revamps like Grant Morrison’s JLA and Ellis’ Authority/Stormwatch and brought widescreen action to the book. That is certainly an element that had been there, in bits, with epics such as Great Darkness Saga and the Time Trapper throwdown, but it wasn’t nearly as emphasized until DnA came on. But their run lacked, crucially, the long term planning I mentioned earlier. That’s why something like “Legion Lost” and “Legion Worlds” holds up so well, while the Legion title itself became progressively more haphazard, began to rely on shock value and ultimately their removal was not only warranted, but overdue.


Waid’s second turn at the title attempted to blend two of the attributes I mentioned above – soap opera and big concept generation – but failed to do the first interestingly or convincingly, and failed to create any interesting, compelling antagonists for the team. Additionally, the lack of a long term blueprint was fairly obvious (and disappointing). Potential, sure, but squandered.

One thing that I thought Waid did well was that he attempted to make the characters feel…alien, or at least profoundly DIFFERENT, both from each other and from what we have come to consider ‘normal’. While previous iterations of the Legion had a few token ‘alien’ like characters, most of the main cast acted exactly as one might expect a JLA member to act. Under Waid’s pen, the character of Chameleon, for instance, was odd while still relatable. Leviathon was in fact a giant who could shrink. Titans could no longer speak with vocal chords.

Any future attempt at the title has to attempt to reconcile and merge all these positive aspects, but most crucial is that there most be some long term, multi year plan in place. Legion is a title that not only allows such a plan thanks to the insular nature of its continuity, but it demands it thanks to the sprawling size of its cast. Likewise crucial are the big concepts, the soap opera, and the wide screen action. All of these can be blended into what I think would be the perfect Legion of Superheroes comic book.

That's just it, isn't it? The current Legion - the original Legion - is what we have RIGHT NOW.

Let's work with THAT, but take it forward and turn it into something that exists as a reflection of today, or a natural progression of what we've had.

Cobie what you say about a Johns may be true, but it will probably take someone with the selling power of a Johns to get a relaunched title on the table in the first place.

LSH as we know it is 100 percent doomed and will be going away, possibly for a very long time. And whose fault is it?

Over on Facebook, I was recently told by an artist of a frustrating experience with the LSH... how every idea this artist had was shot down, and his former love of the title was replaced with frustration because Batman often has better tech than the LSH, and nobody currently at DC wants to let the LSH attain the potential it CAN reach.

Either Levitz or DC editorial is just looking to keep it business as usual, straight to Cancelville.

The New 52 is a joke. Make mine Marvel.

Yeah, with that editorial interference so ever-present in this regime, there is no way a franchise like the Legion can flourish. Until something changes at DC internally, it'll be like trying to push water uphill.

I'm going to take that 'artist' to be Keith Giffen, and that's god damn heartbreaking.

But I'm betting it's Levitz having a specific vision for what he wants to do with his Legion, more than anything. I can't imagine that anyone has any right to tell him what he can or cannot do on that book, editorially, given his previous status within the company, and the almost assured severance he got in terms of creative freedom for moving out of the Presidential role without any fuss.

The whole retroboot, imo, has been pretty much a disaster from day one. A pretty cool series could've been done picking up the day after the Magic Wars, and gradually introducing elements from later versions, but this thing has been so badly mismanaged, it's not even funny.

I see only two ways forward at this point:

1) A "next generation" scenario, with a series focused on the kids of the Legionnaires, with past continuity just left a bit hazy for the time being, but drawing upon ideas and bits from all previous incarnations.

2) Someone decides to do a kickass Superboy series, featuring the real "Superman when he was a boy!" Superboy, totally out of the mainstream DC continuity, and a new version of the Legion inevitably gets introduced as a part of that.

Perhaps they should just let a fan (or fans) write the Legion. Desaad's points about wide-screen action coupled with long-term plotting make sense, and so we need a skilled,experienced writer with love for the title AND GIVEN FREE REIGN BY EDITORIAL.