Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION The Anywhere Machine The Star Wars Episode VII Thread You're Looking For -- Warning: Super-Spoileriffic!

No offense, Fanfic Lady. I was not accusing you of speaking for me, only accusing you of oldsplaining to someone who is equally old.

Old. So old. This is my new Life Motto:



I probably do see more movies than average. Two of my roommates in college were film history majors, after all, and I think it had an effect on me.

I don't think it's unfair to compare TFA to the original movies, especially for a film that is targeting original trilogy fans' nostalgia so explicitly. Some of the repeated plot beats from New Hope and Empire Strikes Back did seem a bit forced a times, such as Han confronting Kylo Ren on a catwalk overlooking a giant chasm or the rebels targeting a weak spot on a giant planet destroying ship. That's why I think the second half of the film starts to fall apart since it's obviously trying to BE the original films and it ignores the first half of the film that was largely taking new and unexpected turns with the Star Wars mythos.

That's a charming story! I look forward to hearing what your step-brother thinks about the movie.

Yeah, that's the thing. Obviously, there's no comparison with the broader cultural impact that the original movies had in the milieu of the late 70s, but my problem is just from the point of view of ten years from now, how much of this film is really going to be all that memorable. I'm not going to be thinking, "Hey, remember that scene with the cantina with all the aliens from A Force Awakens?" or comparing anything to the catwalk confrontation from Episode VII, because those are tropes that already have more familiar reference points. The stuff that is actually kind of memorable in the movie are stuff like the cool shots of the wrecked ships in the desert, or Finn's introduction (which I think would've been even cooler if we hadn't got all the shots of him in Stormtrooper gear in the previews and it truly came out of nowhere), or even BB8. But all that stuff is from *very* early in the movie.

I will say, though, that Han Solo has to be my favorite character to ever originate on film. He's the coolest guy any kid could ever imagine himself growing up to be. While I won't pretend that I didn't want to be a Jedi, I always thought he was the coolest. I cried when he was stabbed and fell into the abyss. It's like a part of my childhood died with him.

I'm not necessarily complaining that Han was killed off. There's a certain poetry to how he served the Ben Kenobi role in this one in many ways, and this was the most personal someone's corruption to the dark side has ever felt with how it played out.

But it was damned sad for me.

I must be easier to please than a lot of you because while I recognise and agree with many of the criticisms raised in this thread, they didn't affect my enjoyment of the movie at all.

Because everyone loves a list at this time of year, here are my goods and bads (or lights and darks, if you will ) of The Force Awakens:

LOVED:

* BB8 - What an awesome little droid! I was not an R2D2 fan at all when I was a kid, so I was pleasantly surprised at how into this guy I got. The design is simply fantastic and I loved its little moments of humour (the "thumbs up" scene! haha).

* Chewbacca - Another character I wasn't hugely fond of in the original trilogy. I don't know if they've re-designed his costume to allow the actor to express more emotion through his eyes or facial expressions or something, but something seemed different, and more engaging, about him. And I liked it a lot!

* Han Solo - As Fanfic Lady (I think) mentioned upthread, Harrison Ford seems like he's been phoning in performances for years now so I was also pleasantly surprised to see him add some of his old twinkle and spark to his portrayal of Han. I must have been the only person who didn't see his death coming too so that was a sad but exciting surprise. I love that the filmmakers weren't afraid to kill off such a major and popular character but I'm sorry we'll now never get to see a reunion scene between him and Luke.

* Kylo Ren - I don't get any of the criticism of this character *at all*! He was probably my favourite new character in the movie! First of all, I very much appreciated that he wasn't an all-knowing Darth Vader redux. This may sound like heresy, but Darth Vader was probably my least favourite character in the original trilogy. (Ironically, it wasn't until I'd watched them again after watching the much-maligned prequel trilogy that I was able to summon any sort of empathy or interest for him and his story.) But everything about the dangerous and angry but also tragic and slightly pathetic Kylo Ren has me invested. IMO he's very much a teenager without being annoying in the way that so many teen-aged characters are - he's trying to live up to the legacy of his family (grandfather) but filled with self-doubt and anxiety, he hates his parents but secretly loves them, he's lonely and looking for a friend to join him (Rey), he's prone to fits of temper when things don't go his way. Haven't we all been there? He also looks and sounds really cool and has 1) an awesome light saber; and 2) the cool ability to stop laser fire mid-air! What's not to love?

* The mystery - Keeping the audience guessing as to who or where Luke is/was in both the marketing material and also throughout the movie was a great hook IMO. I'm a sucker for a good mystery and I was engaged all movie with seeing how this one resolved. Unfortunately, see below for my thoughts on how it got resolved.

* Rey, Finn, Poe - I really liked all three characters but my order of preference is as written. I completely bought into Rey's character and thought the actress did a great job. The internal conflict in Finn could have been more developed but I really loved that he was this much less than perfect character (especially in comparison to the other two) basically just bluffing and stumbling his way through the events in an attempt to get away from the story, but whose heroism and inherent goodness kept dragging him back into it. Poe started off great (though Oscar Isaac's hair bugged me a bit, he looks so much hotter with the shaved head he had in Drive) but my interest waned the instant he started whooping and hollering around the sky. I *hate* those sort of "Ra-Ra" characters that are so common to American movies.

* The visuals - The practical effects, the special effects, the 3D, the alien designs, the armour designs, the ship designs... everything about watching this movie was a complete treat for my eyes and for that reason alone I probably still would have loved it.

* The nostalgia factor - I loved seeing so many little cameos of original trilogy characters and concepts. Admiral Ackbar! Nien Nunb! The hologram chess set! Chewie's crossbow! That imperial 'Walker' vehicle Rey was sitting under! The old Rebel pilot helmet Rey was wearing in the same scene! That little black box droid on wheels that the Imperials use! The way the Millennium Falcon was introduced! These and so many other little moments hit me right in the feels! Are these the same moments that others are referring to when they complain about "nostalgia"? I don't get it if so. To me, these elements are just little easter eggs connecting the characters and elements of this movie to the lore and history of the previous ones. If the "nostalgia" complaint is in reference to the rehashed plot then yes, I agree with you (see below) but I honestly cannot see how anyone could complain about any of the elements I've mentioned above.

* Snoke - Mysterious. I like that. And I really hope he is as giant as his hologram projects him as.

* The humour - This film had a lot more funny moments than I was expecting and I appreciated them.

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DIDN'T LOVE:

* The recycled plot from A New Hope - This is my biggest criticism. Everything from the desert planet opening scenes to the orphan becoming wise with the Force to the visit to the cantina for help to the villain in black guided by a mysterious master to the Death Star version 3 to the destroyed planet to the trench run to the wise, old mentor who guides our heroes to their destination and then dies... and on and on and on. Almost every story beat and plot point in this movie had been done before. And yet... for some reason, I was completely OK with it. And ironically, the one completely original scene that doesn't really have a parallel with any of the scenes from the original movie (the chase/action scene with the bounty hunters and the gross tentacle creatures on Han's ship) was easily my least favourite scene in the whole movie. So it just goes to show that the writers can't win! haha

* Luke's reveal - What a letdown! I was so hoping he would make this grand, amazing entrance. I was hoping we'd find him using some cool, previously unseen Force power like flight or something. And instead he's just... standing on a hill somewhere. I wanted more from you Luke, dammit! I still do love that we didn't see him all movie until the final scene though. And I can't wait to see what they do with him in Episode VIII.

* Captain Phasma's screen time - Someone else I wanted more from! She'd better come back for the sequels because she was criminally underused here!

* Maz Kanata - I was excited when I heard about this mysterious new character that Lupita Nyong'o was playing... and then she turned out to be this boring old expository character that could have been portrayed by any old human woman rather than wasting time and special effects to create this one. The grumpy barman from A New Hope was more interesting than she was! What a shame Bea Arthur wasn't still alive to reprise her role from The Christmas Special.

* New background characters - As mentioned above, the new major characters were great. But there weren't enough interesting new background characters for me to obsess over. A New Hope had so many - Jawas, Sandpeople, Walrus Man, that clumsy fridge-like droid... but no one really stood out from the background in this one. I got super-excited when Finn went off with those two merchants or whatever from Maz Kanata's cantina (especially the one that looked like Spanish conquistador spray-painted red!) but after that initial glimpse, we never saw them again.

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I think I might be forgetting one or two other small gripes but it doesn't matter. The goods far out-weighed the bads with this movie IMO and I am a happy Star Wars camper.

I agree. Even in a franchise filled with force-wielding lightsaber-dueling good guys, Han's personality just made him stand out as uber-cool.

Poe Dameron is also cool but Han is still cooler.

As an aside, I also liked the Finn and Poe friendship. Just two guys who mutually respect each other. It's very refreshing.



I'm with you. I recognize the bad points, but they still didn't make me enjoy the movie less. Perhaps I am more willing to suspend disbelief




I think you hit the nail on the head there, Blacula

I have seen some complaints about how convenient it was for the Falcon to be on Jakku, for it to be the exact ship that Rey and Finn used to escape, and for Han and Chewie to be able to track it...

... but those are coincidences I'm willing to accept. (Besides, Han was already tracking the ship so it was just a matter of really, really good timing).

Also agree that Chewie was so much more endearing in Episode VII.

I think it is more the rehashed plot elements that people are complaining about in regards to the nostalgia problem than stuff like seeing Ackbar or Nien Nunb (which were really cool). Then there was stuff like the reference to the trash compactor which really fell flat for me (by contrast, the "Kessell Run" line worked really well). After awhile it just felt like they were trying too hard to say "Hey, remember how cool Star Wars was when you saw it the first time?" rather than showing us cool new stuff.

I'm wondering if some of the coincidences don't have more of an explanation than they seem. I'm convinced that there must be more to the Max von Sydow character than what we saw, and his having the map to Luke on the same planet as Rey, and perhaps even the Falcon being there are all connected (and I think we can attribute to the Force the fact that Rey and Finn end up taking the Falcon).

I have to say that I absolutely loved seeing Billie Lourd among the resistance staff, and wished we'd gotten to see more of her, especially interacting with Leia. By contrast, I found Greg Grunberg's presence slightly distracting for some reason.

LOL

I know what you mean re: Greg Grunberg, EDE. To me, he'll always be Weiss from "Alias."

OTOH, I think it's kind of cool that he appears in a sort of "Where's Waldo" capacity in just about anything that his childhood friend J.J. Abrams does.

Did anyone else love that Stormtrooper who sees Finn during that battle on Takodana and is like "Screw you Finn, I'm going to kick your ass for betraying us!"? It was so out of character for a Stormtrooper, yet it was hilariously awesome!

Yeah, that was great. Also, one of my favorite bits in the movie was when Kylo Ren was throwing his temper tantrum after Rey escapes and the two stormtroopers start down the hallway towards the room he's in, only to turn around and go back when they hear him.

Last complaint, I promise (well, not promise, but...), So if I understand the explanation, Ren turned on Luke, killed off his other Padawan's and Luke just... wussed out? Really? After all he's learned and grown, he just walked away? Leaving Ren and Snoke to run rampant and eventually kill off an entire system worth of people (Which like Alderaan, doesn't get much of a second thought, BTW)? There'd better be some serious explanations or repercussions on this one. I was never a huge Luke fan, but he's certainly proven to be more heroic than that.

My friends and I were discussing this idea: what if Captain Phasma challenged Kylo Ren to a fight to be Snoke's second in command and beat him? I think it would be really cool to finally see a badass female Sith lord on screen. (not counting Asajj Ventress since I think that stuff isn't considered canon).

Has anyone else been following the whole fiasco with Max Landis criticizing Rey? The Internet is going nuts!

I liked that more than the silly duel they got into. Maz urging Finn to use the lightsaber was a bit too much for me (though Finn using the lightsaber against Kylo later on was awesome and totally made sense).



That made me and the people around me chuckle!



At first I thought it was Snoke who turned on Luke, then he just snagged Ren and brought him along. Having Ren be the betrayer just seems too much, especially considering Ren's uncontrollable temper tantrums and the relative ease with which Rey used the Force to read his mind!

I do agree that Luke just giving up and disappearing is confusing and disappointing. And now a whole planetary system has been destroyed...

Was it explained how Maz came into possession of Anakin's old lightsaber? I assumed it was either still stuck in the Cloud City ventilation pipes or had fallen on the surface of Bespin?

I assume we'll get more explanation for Luke's actions in the next movie, so I'm willing to withhold judgement on it for the time being.

It seems to me you could make the same criticisms of Yoda and Ben after Revenge of the Sith, though.

No. Last we saw of it was when Vader chopped off Luke's hand and it went flying into the depths of Cloud City.

That's true, though with Ben and Yoda I think part of the justification is that Palpatine had taken control of the Empire and the clone army, so Ben and Yoda were limited in what they could do (plus we saw Ben try to stop Anakin and Yoda try to stop Palpatine in duels).

You do make a good point that more on Luke will be revealed, and i'm confident that an acceptable explanation will be given for his (in)action. Maybe he tried, but couldn't.

Four Millennials Watch Star Wars for the First Time

Blaze isn't alone!

And I'm shocked because these millennials are all about my age!

One of my favorite things at the moment: Emo Kylo Ren

As promised, this is the assessment of my 10-years-younger step-brother, who had never seen any of the previous Star Wars films:

“It was a good movie.”

He did have some observations, though.

• There must be an awful lot of habitable worlds in the Galaxy, considering with what impunity the First Order destroys (at least) a half-dozen planets, and two stars. Best guess is tens of billions die in this film.

• For a guy who doesn’t want to kill, Finn sure kills a lot of people. Mostly storm trooper “bad guys”, but he was a storm trooper bad guy. So why doesn’t he identify with them as much as the innocent villagers on Jaaku, who are strangers to him?

• Somewhat confused about light-sabers. Just how does a light-saber work? Why isn’t Finn cut in pieces? Also, twice a light-saber is used to stab, when it really seems like more of a slicing weapon. Also, Kylo Ren’s light-saber is clearly inferior to Rey’s: its containment field seems unstable, giving it a poorly defined edge.

• Vic identifies with Finn in one way: he also worked as a sanitation engineer (janitor) in college. Finn actually ought to have an intimate knowledge of Star killer Base if he worked there as a janitor. Janitors go everywhere.

• Vic had a little trouble with the familial relationships, but eventually figured out (a) if Luke and Leia are brother and sister, then Darth Vader is the father of them both (b) Leia and Han are the parents of Kylo Ren, therefore Darth Vader is his grandfather. Not too difficult, especially with all the exposition, but it took about half-way through the film before he got it straight in his mind.

• In the Star Wars universe, being a pilot is the epitome of cool.

• “Supreme Leader Snoke has a kind of wizard-of-Oz vibe going on, am I right?”

• Why does Luke Skywalker, the Last Jedi, look like the Trickster from CW Flash?

• If Maz has survived for the last thousand years, which means all the events of all six previous films and more, isn’t it likely that she is pretty good at surviving, and has made it through episode seven as well, despite the destruction on her planet? Are we supposed to think that?

• Maybe not so many people died after all. The planets in Star Wars seem really small. The habitable regions, at least those we see, are no more than a few dozen square miles. Otherwise, why does Rey stay in that crummy desert town on Jaaku, instead of going somewhere else on the same planet? Our Earth has at least hundreds of major cities.

• Pretty good film all around, he will probably go see episode eight, but did not really get choked up with the reunion of Rey and Luke at the end of the film. He felt it probably should have run as the scene after the credits.

Neil DeGrasse Tyson quote: “BB-8 is waaaaay cuter than R2D2. I guess I did just demote R2D2 to “dwarf cute” status.”

• Vic, however, is totally unimpressed with the cuteness of droids.

P.S.: You can relay the following message from me to any appropriate fangeeks: there is a very specific meaning for the phrase Mary Sue, and it does not mean “female protagonist that I do not happen to like.”

Thanks for sharing, Supe Pergirl.

I also don't find the droids particularly cute. I think their beeping is cuter than their forms, in fact.

Currently reading the novelization.

A couple of thoughts thus far:

--We get to see more of Poe's story in the novel. Unfortunately it's not all that exciting (and is weirdly placed in the novel), so I don't think we lost that much leaving it out of the movie.

--There's a scene where Unkar Plutt tracks Rey down at Maz's castle which serves as a setup for her firing her weapon with the safety on bit in the film (I remember thinking it seemed like something was missing when I saw that). I also serves to replicate another famous bit from the original movie, though, which is kind of annoying.

--Speaking of which, I hadn't picked up on the fact that the Falcon being brought on board Han's freighter (by a tractor beam apparently), was meant to parallel the scene of the Falcon being tractored onto the Death Star in the original film.

--There's a lot more of Leia, including a scene where she sends one of her aids to plead for more help from the Republic Senate (thus inadvertently sending her to her death). It fleshes out the political situation a bit more.

Overall, though, I'm about two-thirds in and I'm kind of liking the novel more than the movie. It seems better paced somehow, and, though heavily derivative in plot, somehow it's not bothering as much as the film.