Roll Call
0 members (), 33 Murran Spies, and 13 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Time-Scope
Kill This Thread LIII - There's a Joker in Here!
by Gaseous Lad - 05/21/24 05:53 PM
Legion Trivia 6
by Gaseous Lad - 05/21/24 05:47 PM
I'm Thinking of a DCU character Part 6!
by Chaim Mattis Keller - 05/21/24 04:58 PM
Fatal Five in DC August Solicits
by Sarcasm Kid - 05/21/24 12:27 PM
The 2nd All Avengers Thread
by Ann Hebistand - 05/21/24 10:16 AM
The Non-Legion Comics Trivia Thread Pt 5
by thoth lad - 05/21/24 08:47 AM
Postlo3w stories *LATEST UPDATE 19 MAY*
by Harbinger - 05/21/24 03:08 AM
Legionnaire Mastermind
by Invisible Brainiac - 05/21/24 12:27 AM
Omnicom
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 16 1 2 3 4 5 15 16
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #953205 07/08/18 11:42 AM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,483
Tempus Fugitive
Offline
Tempus Fugitive
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,483
Comments

Originally Posted by Cramer
The only complaint is that the return of the lost Legionnaires is unexplained. It's a big gap from where and when we last saw them, but perhaps the writers consider the readers sufficiently creative to make up their own connections.


Without having read that DC presents issue, I just took it that they went through the conveniently tagged Earth-portal and that was them back. Karate Kid’s death Is mentioned, but there was no ceremony. It can be a writing issue to always move onto the next new story, without closing down the impact of the previous one, beyond a couple of lines of dialogue. In plotting, Brin’s subplot continues the story, and KK is mentioned. But there’s not a scene devoted to one of the fallen. I see HWW makes a similar point. I think they might have learned a lot form the villains and then Ayla. But again, these are things we should have seen. The LSV ended and came back form Orando in a whimper.

Originally Posted by Cramer
One other minor point is the characterization of Dvron as the not-too-bright rookie. It's a common type of character, but, given that there are so few SP officers, why wouldn't each one be among the best and brightest? Does Dvron have connections?


It's a shame that the upcoming plot didn’t reveal him to be a descendant of Olsen or something.

Originally Posted by Cramer
… Nura and Thom are separate. Computo is malfunctioning, overpouring a drink…

If we both noticed, there’s definitely something going on.

Originally Posted by Cramer
…but it does illustrate Jan's reluctance for physical contact. He mentions secrets; we can only guess what they may be. Given what we know now about Shvaughn, this panel has a certain poignancy. The facial expressions alone could have told the whole story .

Ah, Jan’s secrets. So many possibilities in light of later events.

Originally Posted by Cramer
The Hong Kong mission brings back the Sklarian raiders and continues primarily with the lost team - Jan, Vi and Cham along with Jacques and Ayla.

Good point about three of the mission team having been a focus from the bulk of the Orando mission onwards. You’d think they were due some leave. A good point about why Jo is left behind. That would extend to Tinya as well.

Originally Posted by Cramer
The Sklarians are stealing organs for transplant; when we last saw them, they were appealing to be given the same level of tech as other U.P. members and were, it appears, denied. One can sympathize with them to some degree, but they're painted exclusively as villains here.

Having their past hinted at would have raised the story quite a bit, I thought.

Originally Posted by Cramer
There's a good sense of continuity within the story, weaving in old plots and starting new ones. There are plenty of futuristic details in the artwork. All in all, a very satisfying issue.

It wasn’t until I was going through the party scene that I really realised how well linked it all was. Brin, Laurel and RJ plots along with Cos (well, a look from Cos), Yera/Vi etc all pack out the main story.

Originally Posted by HWW
Vi's portrayal in this story is very interesting. She approaches Yera to give her a what-for, only to be reduced to babbling when Yera remains calm and refuses to be baited. Vi's self-righteous anger has to go somewhere, so she takes it out first on Blok and then on the Sklarian swatter. Vi really needs to sit down with a therapist.

Ayla also strikes me as someone who feels the need to overcompensate. She comes off as being overly aggressive on the mission to Hong Kong and confrontational with Chief Zendak during the party. This could also be why Ayla wears her costume at the party, to drive home that she's back as a Legionnaires.

Both Vi and Ayla have gone through serious and traumatic experiences. Both have ended long-term relationships. Both may still be trying to find themselves.


I think that sums up where both are nicely. Yera holding her ground was something of a twist. A good assessment on the rest of the team too.

Originally Posted by HWW
The full-page party scene is a classic…
I’m the odd sentient out on that one. There’s loads going on and I usually like that. Maybe I’m repressing a memory of being caught on the train turning a magazine in another direction and what that suggested to the other passengers. smile

This issue is fine, and has all the usual hallmarks of a Levitz issue. I’ve just found the main storylines of the last three to be a little flat. But a flat Levitz issue, is still pretty decent stuff. Particularly with Lightly coming into his own on the book.

I had been wondering about where the Protean thing went, and I see that our memories pretty much match. I do agree that Brin is being picked for what he can do, rather than for any particular closeness with Val. Although there could well be Lost Legion stories of Lone Wolf Brin finding more of a place within the team, through training with Val. Plenty of other members have mentioned similar training.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #953242 07/09/18 05:50 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 16,853
Time Trapper
OP Offline
Time Trapper
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 16,853
Quote
Cos makes the point that the whole team is exhausted. Now I’ve been wondering in recent reviews just what the main team has been up to while the focus has been on the Orando team. Although the mission in this issue is a relatively small one, it does go some way to answering that question. Lots of smaller missions gradually taking their toll on the team.


Good point, the small missions adding up, especially with a reduced team and people still feeling the effects of Darkseid, as well as the emotional drain of the missing Legionnaires.

Quote
Nira is certainly quick enough to agree, following her realisation, whether precognitive or not. She passes comment in an offhand way, (“well, then, I suppose I go along with you, boys.”) but I do think there was something deeper going on there.


Because she already knew how it would turn out? Or perhaps had already made up her mind but let the others think they'd convinced her.

Quote
It’s nice that she defers to Wildfire to get this organised. Fortunately Cos was going to let Wildfire into his plans ages ago, so all the recruitment has been sorted out… oh, it hasn’t because that subplot went nowhere.


There's a plot limbo land where unpublished panels explain all.

Quote
As Nura resumes the meeting the lost legionnaires return. Blok seems terribly smiley, leading me to suspect he’s been replaced by something else or he’s off his rock-er


Ouch! for the pun, but I hadn't noticed the smile.

Quote
The rescue is a nice set up page to Erin’s reunion with Jan. It’s a quiet scene fitting well with all those moments they’ve had. Zendak’s nephew goes from being a little scared to being a little bit ignored. Look for Symyn Zendak to become a slightly less patient chief of the SP when he grows up.


Odd he didn't call her Officer, but "lady". The little touches like making this kid a Zendak add a depth to the Legionverse.

Quote
The scene did spark off fears among Legion world that Jan had accidently killed Tree Lad, who was on protective duty on key Legion allies. Considering Jan’s state of mind, some thought Jan had decided to settle a few scores, in keeping with Ayla and Vi of this period.


So what did Tree Lad have against the kid?

Quote
Lost Tales here include Rond’s comment leading into a Doctor Regulus taking over the Time Beacon; Jacques wearing Kid Eternity’s belt around his neck as he continues to look into the origins of the Dream Demon; Computo’s glitch links to other recent errors and a bigger story; and Zendak really being there to investigate the murder of Tree Lad.


Or find out why Tree Lad tried to murder Symyn.

Quote
I’d have liked to have seen some scenes with Vi and Chameleon Girl n later volumes, but Legion Lost put paid to that.

Even though they patched things up, to some degree, in 5YL, you wonder if resentments didn't linger on both sides. Perhaps the 5YL rapprochement was the result of consuming some of those Winathian mushrooms.

Quote
Levitz likes using corridors to link Brin Londo scenes.


Interesting. Symbolic of...Brin going nowhere? Between lives?

Quote
Jacques “Plot Furthering Kid” Foccart is the one to return with some evidence.


He and Tinya are often the ones to figure things out or see the crucial bit of information. Maybe it has something to do with their extra-dimensional powers.

Quote
The mission was of the standard variety, with Levitz putting in a procedural approach across the scenes that worled well. The group gave themselves away completely during the embassy infiltration, which stretched credulity.


Too tired after their recent adventures, they got sloppy. And lucky, since the mission still worked.


Quote
It's a shame that the upcoming plot didn’t reveal him to be a descendant of Olsen or something.


Wow! They missed that one, with all those 20th century descendants showing up.


Holy Cats of Egypt!
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #953306 07/09/18 10:39 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,483
Tempus Fugitive
Offline
Tempus Fugitive
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,483
Originally Posted by Cramer
Originally Posted by thoth
Nura is certainly quick enough to agree, following her realisation, whether precognitive or not. She passes comment in an offhand way, (“well, then, I suppose I go along with you, boys.”) but I do think there was something deeper going on there.


Because she already knew how it would turn out? Or perhaps had already made up her mind but let the others think they'd convinced her.


I definitely think it's the former. I like to think that it's linked in to something she sees regarding her future with Thom too. While the outcome of their relationship is some time away, the arc has been going on for some time too.

Originally Posted by Cramer
Originally Posted by thoth
It’s nice that she defers to Wildfire to get this organised. Fortunately Cos was going to let Wildfire into his plans ages ago, so all the recruitment has been sorted out… oh, it hasn’t because that subplot went nowhere.


There's a plot limbo land where unpublished panels explain all.


Wildfire could have done with a positive subplot. We'll see how much involvement he has in the try outs soon though.


Originally Posted by Cramer
Originally Posted by thoth
As Nura resumes the meeting the lost legionnaires return. Blok seems terribly smiley, leading me to suspect he’s been replaced by something else or he’s off his rock-er


Ouch! for the pun, but I hadn't noticed the smile.


Blok: Unbalanced minion of the Dark Man after all.


Originally Posted by Cramer
Originally Posted by thoth
The scene did spark off fears among Legion world that Jan had accidently killed Tree Lad, who was on protective duty on key Legion allies. Considering Jan’s state of mind, some thought Jan had decided to settle a few scores, in keeping with Ayla and Vi of this period.


So what did Tree Lad have against the kid?


It turns out that Zendak was investigating a villain from within the Legion. That villain had anonymously threatened his family, and so Tree Lad was helping protect it. The scene we see look as though Erin and Jan are just helping the nephew. But Jan had actually killed Tree Lad and then returned to the scene to assist Erin. We saw Jan about to confess to Erin later on. But that chance was interrupted.


Originally Posted by Cramer
Originally Posted by thoth
Levitz likes using corridors to link Brin Londo scenes.


Interesting. Symbolic of...Brin going nowhere? Between lives?


Maybe they put Brin out at night, and he prowls the corridors. If you look closely at some panels of the HQ entrance, you can see the cat wolf flap.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #953317 07/10/18 03:35 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 16,853
Time Trapper
OP Offline
Time Trapper
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 16,853
Tales #322 Lost Among the Missing by Mindy Newell & Paul Levitz, art by Dan Jurgens & Karl Kesel, Colors by Carl Gaford, Letters by Ben Oda

[Linked Image]

An elderly priestess denounces Jhodan as having betrayed Kol by consorting with "the winged demon".

Dawnstar arises, while Jhodan and Ina sleep, and tried to fly with her damaged wings. She fails and Ina attacks her with a sword. They fight until Jhodan intervenes. He berates Ina; Dawnstar realizes that Ina loves him.

Brainy bathes in a pool. Spliff tells him his clothes stink. Brainy is thankful that Spliff is friendly even if he is a schizophrenic. He finds Spliff chanting and drawing symbols which indicate Earth along with symbols.

At Legion HQ, Nura tells Jan she's happy he's back as leader - and he admits he's glad as well. After complimenting one another, Wildfire bursts in, angry that Dawnstar is missing and blaming Nura for letting Brainy experiment with her tracking abilities. Jan defends Nura.

Jhodan stops their journey home to tell Ina to hunt for food since her prayers brought no manna that morning. He prays at an altar as Dawnstar is baffled by the demands of this religion. The sky rumbles and he appeals to Kol that he is loyal.

Back at the temple, the head priestess as riled up the warriors with her story of Jhodan's betrayal. As the storm gathers, she commands them to ride out and find Jhodan, but to destroy Ina and "the weirdling". She is saddened by Jhodan's fall, but proceeds to meet penitents. One describes a dream of a fish falling from the sky and disgorging a green-skinned man. The priestess is alarmed, thinking this signals the Time of the Infidels.

As Spliff chants, flying creatures drop a basket of pink globs from the sky; this is the manna that people eat.

Troops confront Jhodan. Dawnstar manages to fly away. Ina's loyalties are divided. As she sees Jhodan attacked from behind, she decides to help him and joins the struggle, picking up a fallen sword. A soldier traps her against a tree, then slips and falls on her sword.

On the Dark Circle planet, Dvron continues his spywork, having discovered something big, and tries to contact Shvaughn. He is being monitored by the Dark Circle and has been all along, falling into a trap they've set.

Spliff brings Brainy to a town, where people fear his green skin but his association with Spliff and a lick from a giant pet convince them that he's not dangerous. He enters a building and finds computer reels.

Dawnstar is inconsolable, blaming herself for the soldier's death. Jhodan tries to comfort her but a kiss is interrupted by Ina, who departs in a fury. Dawnstar considers that she might be able to have a life with Jhodan and they manage to exchange an understanding of each other's name.

At HQ, Thom arrives to take Nura to supper at a fancy restaurant, but she's tired, feeling grungy and only wants to rest. She calls him selfish and stomps off.

Brainy sees that the computer reels date from a time of the Great Wars. He hears people running toward a plaza, then sees them bowing before Jhodan and Dawnstar.

Comments:

This issue is a combination of doomed romance comic and continued world-building, with a bit of standard Legion fare thrown in. The mystery of Kol's planet and its connection to 25th century Earth only deepens.

We learn a bit more about the planet's culture, mostly the degree to which its harsh religion rules the people; there's not much revealed about any particular beliefs beyond obedience to Kol.

The manna suggests nourishment for a wandering tribe, seeking a promised land - but everyone here is settled. Possibly it appears in response to some prayer or chant in the wilderness; the children in town seem delighted to see it when Spliff arrives with some.

In a surprising twist of the primitive meets advanced culture story, it's Brainiac 5 who smells bad to Spliff rather than the reverse.

Dawnstar is horrified to have killed a soldier, albeit by accident. The cover is considerably more dramatic than the actual event of the soldier's death and I wonder if Jurgens was given story details which later changed. However, Dawnstar very quickly rebounds as her concern for and attraction to Jhodan strengthens. It does make you think there's some influence working on her emotions. Brainy seems oddly laid-back as well. He may suspect something is off, thinking that the manna causes hallucinations. On the final page, people bow before Jhodan and Dawnstar, although the Reverend Mother condemned them both: that's a good puzzle on which to end the issue. While it's credible that news hasn't reached this particular village, it's odd that Dawnstar has been viewed as a witch or a monster up until now; what's different about this village?

I seem to be missing something in the story: Brainy understands the speech of Spliff and the townspeople, while Dawnstar can make out no more than Jhodan's name. Does he have a better grasp of languages or are Spliff and the villagers speaking a recognizable dialect?

Back home, Nura and Jan are at last on good terms; Jan even defends her when she's verbally attacked by Wildfire. It's a relief to see Jan acting like the adult I remember from later issues. Whether it's the encounter with Wildfire and/or the tensions of leadership over the past year, Nura snaps at Thom. It doesn't look like any sort of permanent rift at this point, but she's the one moving away from him. She could be starting to contemplate her future as Naltor's High Seer (not sure if this is a given at this point) and appreciating the responsibilities she will have to bear; she's certainly had a good taste of leadership with the Legion.

It's an interesting issue for the details - in words and images - supplied about this strange world. However, it's a bit frustrating to have been given no answers about what's going on, only further questions.


Holy Cats of Egypt!
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #953377 07/10/18 02:42 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,483
Tempus Fugitive
Offline
Tempus Fugitive
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,483
TotLoSH 322

From a cover of a fallen angel, we now have one of a rising demon. It’s also a cover that gives away one of the issue’s big turning points. Still, it’s certainly dramatic. I remember wondering when I first got this, if it was Jhodan she had killed, even with the change of clothes. Just to give it that extra resonance. But it wasn’t.

I thought I had skipped an issue, and had to back to check. Last issue Jhodan and Ina were taking Dawny back to the Core. The villagers thought he was within his rights to do so. And Ina hadn’t told anyone of the problems.

Yet, our splash page has the reverend mother has declared Jhodan and Ina as traitors and deserving of judgement. How does she know what’s happened? The brotherhood also seem to know that there’s a bird-woman involved. How do they know this? Was Jhodan sent directly on a mission to bring her back last issue. If so, I don’t remember it being said. I do remember anyone who Kol doesn’t like faces either excommunication or death.

The splash page also has the face of the Blue Devil. One of my early posts on LW covered the link between Blue Devil, Kol and Hate Face

There’s a genesis story that tells of the “light of Kol” so it could be that the Core are the descendants of a crashed spaceship, while the locals are indigenous. Or that they are all descendants of the space ship crew, just that some had more senior/ key roles on it, and they are now the Core. Or the spaceship converted only some of the locals after a crash…

Behind the Reverend mother, we get a mix of technology and stonework, hinting again at the ship based origin for the Core. I wondered if there was any significance to the Reverend Mothers staff of office. If there is, I can’t think of it (unless it’s a converted Blue Devil trident of course). She later refers to it as The Crystal of Kol.

As to why Jhodan has suddenly run afoul of Kol, Dawny indicates that the two of them were intimate between last issue and this. After we saw them close to an embrace at the end of 321 Dawny says “last night, I felt I had known him forever” and “last night is gone.”

That could go some way to why Ina attacks Dawny with the knife, although her simply trying to fly would have been enough. It does also add weight to Drake’s outburst later in the issue. Their connection is so strong (turning up at the moment when Dawnstar was to find her partner is another example of this) that he knows something has happened and lashes out.

Dawny later refers to Jhodan as a friend. Perhaps Kol picked up that something was wrong from Ina’s prayers. Ina’s perspective on the matter might have made this a lot worse than it actually was.
Kol knowing what went on between Dawny and Jhodan would indicate it can survey its world. The space ship origins would suggest technology to do this. However, last issue Jhodan tells Ina that they are Kol’s vessels. Perhaps that’s to be taken more literally than it seemed. Something else else that marks the Core out as different form the others, could be something inside them or that has changed them. It would link Jhodan directly to the Core and then to the Reverend Mother.

Just before Dawny beats up Ina, Johdan calls his pupil off. Ina refers to Dawny as “it” while she’s a “she” to Jhodan. Both do this deliberately to show the other their feelings. Jhodan is always quick to impart his wisdom onto his pupil. She has always been wrong. But now the roles have changed. Jhodan knows he was wrong here as Ina stalks away with vengeance in her heart for the “weirdling”
There follows a Brainy beefcake scene as he bathes in front of Spliff, who has also moved his clothes. I wonder how many fanfics this one inspired. Perhaps Dawny won’t be the only one looking to return to Kol. smile

Spliff gives Brainy a big clue as to Kol’s origins. He draws out that men and women came from the third planet of the sol system.

Back at Legion HQ, Wildfire blames Dreamy for losing Dawny. He says that he thinks that she’s no longer a capable leader and that others called her “vain and selfish.” He’s about to go further before Dreamy and, as leader, Element Lad counter. There’s no apology and he stalks out thinking only about himself. It’s not a “I hope you’re well Dawny” It’s a Dawny, I know I’ve lost you. Lots of “I” in there. Just in the last review I was saying that Drake needed something positive. This goes in the other direction, reinforcing some of his worse traits.
The Core’s link to a surveying Kol seem to be confirmed when Jhodan stops to pray. It turns out that Ina’s prayers have brought no manna, presumably as Kol knows what has happened and informed the Reverend Mother. Dawny notes that the shrines are every 5km. Are those simply marker shrines, or part of Kol’s ability to keep in touch with it’s world? When Jhodan prays, the result is more direct and the skies turn an ominous red.

Funnily enough, Dawny would be front and centre when red skies sweep across everywhere is a couple of months. It would have been a nice throwaway had she made a connection between the two events.

The red skies add a spur to the Core soldiers tasked to bring Jhodan back, or kill him. The Reverend Mother sees it as a sign. The word balloons are mistakenly reversed for Rand and Lictio in one panel. As the guards leave, the Reverend Mother hears of a dream from one of the non-core people. He has dreamt of Brainy. It might be the thought of psychic phenomena in someone not in the core that shocked the Reverend Mother, but it seems just as likely that Brainy’s arrival is part of a prophecy she has knowledge of. That adds a layers of new questions to the story. Spliff also said he dreamt of Dawny’s arrival last issue. I thought he actually saw her, but perhaps it links more directly with what the local man’s dreamings.

Earlier, Jhodan mentioned that Ina’s prayers brought no manna. Now Spliff prays and Manna is delivered in a basket carried by four flying lizards. This would again suggest that Kol is able to connect directly with the world, and that it’s done through certain people. It would therefore suggest that Spliff was once one of the Core. Brainy mentions Spliff’s schizophrenia frequently. Perhaps this is a result of something Spliff has learned about Kol.

Two days later and the Core meet Jhodan. Dawny flies away, and Jhiodan prevents any arrows being shot at her. Ina has a true conflict of loyalties, while Dawny returns when she sees Jhodan about to be stabbed. Her feelings for Jhodan quickly outweigh her wish to leave the planet.

Although she’s injured, Dawny’s main asset is her speed. We’ve seen her flying an opponent through a ship’s hull before. But here, having dispatched one enemy, she doesn’t take to the sky once again for another attack. Instead, she picks up a sword. There’s an excuse of fighting by the rules of the people there. But we don’t see her use blasters or anything of the Khunds when she’s facing them. There’s what’s supposed to be a dramatic moment when one of the soldiers makes an unlikely slip onto Dawny’s sword. It’s self defence, but it’s the Legion and Dawny knows what a death at her hands means. That’s Jacques and Dawny’s action both having resulted in a death recently. Is the no killing rule becoming blurred? I look forward to Thom judging at the trial. smile

Speaking of Thom, one of this issue’s subplots is another brush off at the hands of Nura. Once again, Thom wants to do something together as a couple while Nura is thinking of Legion commitments. It’s becoming quite a repetitive scene. While Thom is indeed thinking about himself as much as the relationship, there comes a point that Nura is also only thinking about the team, and her place in it, and not the relationship. Rocky roads ahead, and I don’t mean that Blok gets involved (for Cramer who so enjoyed my last Blok pun smile )

There’s an ad for Crisis #1 in this issue (and last week’s Baxter issue). Dawny is one of the characters featured. Having killed, and found a new love, I wonder if readers are thinking that her time with the Legion could be coming to an end? The lettercol suggests that they will be going through some changes and Wildfire thinks that he’s lost her. (it also mentions a “long promised Titans-Legion crossover” That would be a lot later on in the end. It also answers why Drake is in the team if he needs a suit and confirms that Blok was never human, despite that dialogue in an early appearance).

A distraught Dawny (who thinks of Wildfire again) is comforted by Jhodan. Here, they are about to kiss and, seeing them, Ina stalks off breaking her ties to Jhodan. If she didn’t hear Jhodan and Dawny a few nights before, I wonder what happened to give Dawny all those deep thoughts. Jhodan is conveniently stopped from going after her, as Dawny wants to treat his wounds. That should give Ina a position in the finale issue.

The manna that Spliff collects he gives to others in his home village. He dispenses wisdom along with it, reinforcing that he’s likely to have been one of the Core. Exploring the village, Brainy comes across a temple with starship parts. He finds an old reel from the Great Wars and tucks it away. He’s drawn towards a crowd in the town centre, where the locals are bowing to Jhodan and Dawnstar. Jhodan shouldn’t look too shocked. Locals were bowing to him a couple of times in the last issue, as he’s one of the Core (well, he was). Both Legionnaires had considered the other to have died, so there’s going to be a bit of relief in the reunion.

The other subplot in this issue concerned Dev-Em’s infiltration of the Dark Circle. He’s found out a few things, but is unaware that the Circle watch his every move.

It’s a well paced issue, and the absence of much of the Legion isn’t really a problem, much as it wasn’t in the Lar/Tasmia spotlight issues. Dawny continues through her arc of her feeling for Jhodan, now complicated further by a possible infringement of the Legion code. Brainy gets to indulge his curiosity, although there’s lots of internal dialogue pushing things along. Ina is probably the most interesting, as she is having to go through some very rapid changes. Her anger and jealously some of it rightfully placed have now led her to abandon her teacher. She doesn’t know that the Core are happy to see her die, so hopefully she’ll stay away from them for a while.

Her “not any more!” outburst at Dawny and Jhodan mirrors Drake’s “from now on, stay out of my way!” blow up at Nura and Jan. I think it sums up Drake’s emotional security and maturity quite well.

Li’l thoth’s Elsewhere section

… Um… li’l thoth seems to have had an off month this time round. I’d have got the Legion (although I didn’t get next month’s) and…

JLA- 237 – The old JLA meets the new, with a quite lame reason as to why they didn’t intercede following Aquaman’s decision to disband the JLA.

But that’s it. So, definitely not the Legion DC Presents at the time.

I picked up Crisis 1, with Dawnstar and Who’s Who 2 shortly afterwards (I’m having a little flashback of picking up a few early Who’s Who’s in one go). I thought I’d raced up to a lot of titles a bit quickly in recent reviews. I guess this was a gap between picking up what was on the newsstand with trips to the City. But how long is this gap?! How long?!
Of the ones I’d pick up later…

Atari Force – 16. All the action takes place on a ship. But there’s a lot going on across the team. With it’s interesting aliens and strong characters there are a few things that would fit in very well with the Legion. Lightle is about to bring in some of that to the Baxter book.

Um… Azrael makes an appearance while Gar looks to pin the traitor tag on Joey as the Terminator’s trial approaches. Like The Legion without Giffen, the Titans just loses that edge without Perez adding to the plotting.

I see World’s Finest had The Executrix as a villain. Also the name of a RPG villain I had from ages ago. >tsk<

I’d have picked up the All-Star Squadron and the Flash at some point, but neither are stand out issues. The Squadron go to a masked ball where they fight Night and Fog, while the Flash’s trial moves along like a version of The Turtle.

So…tune in again in a fortnight when li’l thoth might have got his dad to buy him some funny books!


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #953427 07/11/18 10:48 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 16,853
Time Trapper
OP Offline
Time Trapper
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 16,853
Originally Posted by thoth
Yet, our splash page has the reverend mother has declared Jhodan and Ina as traitors and deserving of judgement. How does she know what’s happened? The brotherhood also seem to know that there’s a bird-woman involved. How do they know this? Was Jhodan sent directly on a mission to bring her back last issue. If so, I don’t remember it being said. I do remember anyone who Kol doesn’t like faces either excommunication or death.


Possibly explained in next issue (don't recall either & haven't read ahead), but it's certainly a gap here. It suggests some surveillance ability - maybe the birds delivering manna have little cameras attached.

Quote
The splash page also has the face of the Blue Devil. One of my early posts on LW covered the
link between Blue Devil, Kol and Hate Face


That Blue Devil face does stand out from the others. You could be on to something.

Quote
Behind the Reverend mother, we get a mix of technology and stonework, hinting again at the ship based origin for the Core. I wondered if there was any significance to the Reverend Mothers staff of office. If there is, I can’t think of it (unless it’s a converted Blue Devil trident of course). She later refers to it as The Crystal of Kol.


I was looking for some significance here as well, but only got more unanswered questions.

Quote
Kol knowing what went on between Dawny and Jhodan would indicate it can survey its world. The space ship origins would suggest technology to do this. However, last issue Jhodan tells Ina that they are Kol’s vessels. Perhaps that’s to be taken more literally than it seemed. Something else else that marks the Core out as different form the others, could be something inside them or that has changed them. It would link Jhodan directly to the Core and then to the Reverend Mother.


The idea of super A.I. wasn't very widespread when this was written, but something like that would explain how the planet was surveilled, controlled and managed. When priests were initiated, maybe they got some sort of implant or tech device (which they would wear like a crucifex) to connect them all as part of the Core. Alexa, bring manna!

Quote
There follows a Brainy beefcake scene as he bathes in front of Spliff, who has also moved his clothes. I wonder how many fanfics this one inspired. Perhaps Dawny won’t be the only one looking to return to Kol.


Hah! They must have had some fun teasing the readers with that beefcake scene of the guy who's the most covered up in the Legion.

Quote
Back at Legion HQ, Wildfire blames Dreamy for losing Dawny. He says that he thinks that she’s no longer a capable leader and that others called her “vain and selfish.” He’s about to go further before Dreamy and, as leader, Element Lad counter. There’s no apology and he stalks out thinking only about himself. It’s not a “I hope you’re well Dawny” It’s a Dawny, I know I’ve lost you. Lots of “I” in there. Just in the last review I was saying that Drake needed something positive. This goes in the other direction, reinforcing some of his worse traits.


"Who's calling who vain and selfish?" Nura might well have responded. Drake comes off as obsessed - but it's implied that he does have some psychic link with Dawnstar, which he senses is faltering. But is he thinking she's physically dead or just lost to him?

Quote
The Core’s link to a surveying Kol seem to be confirmed when Jhodan stops to pray. It turns out that Ina’s prayers have brought no manna, presumably as Kol knows what has happened and informed the Reverend Mother. Dawny notes that the shrines are every 5km. Are those simply marker shrines, or part of Kol’s ability to keep in touch with it’s world? When Jhodan prays, the result is more direct and the skies turn an ominous red.


Wifi towers? I hadn't made the connection between the shrines and the potential for surveillance/connectivity, just saw them as another example of the demands of this religion.

Quote
Funnily enough, Dawny would be front and centre when red skies sweep across everywhere is a couple of months. It would have been a nice throwaway had she made a connection between the two events.


This also plays into the first issue's cover title, "Red Dawn", which I figured was just Dawnstar bleeding.

Quote
Earlier, Jhodan mentioned that Ina’s prayers brought no manna. Now Spliff prays and Manna is delivered in a basket carried by four flying lizards. This would again suggest that Kol is able to connect directly with the world, and that it’s done through certain people. It would therefore suggest that Spliff was once one of the Core. Brainy mentions Spliff’s schizophrenia frequently. Perhaps this is a result of something Spliff has learned about Kol.


Spliff as an ex-priest is an interesting idea which I hadn't considered. Too nice and gentle for the Order?

Quote
Rocky roads ahead, and I don’t mean that Blok gets involved (for Cramer who so enjoyed my last Blok pun )


I've unleashed a monster in the Re-Read threads!

Quote
Her “not any more!” outburst at Dawny and Jhodan mirrors Drake’s “from now on, stay out of my way!” blow up at Nura and Jan. I think it sums up Drake’s emotional security and maturity quite well.


What a pair Ina and Wildfire would make! Sounds like the basis for a conniving rom com movie. If Drake's body was destroyed as a teenager (and possibly an emotionally immature one), perhaps his psyche was also frozen at that time so that developing emotional maturity would be difficult.


Holy Cats of Egypt!
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #953480 07/11/18 03:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,483
Tempus Fugitive
Offline
Tempus Fugitive
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,483
Originally Posted by Cramer
Spliff as an ex-priest is an interesting idea which I hadn't considered. Too nice and gentle for the Order?


Perhaps that gentleness is what resulted in his current state, after he was shown/discovered some of Kol's secrets as one of the Core's brightest prospects. Perhaps he followed the ideals more thatn the truths behind the Arms of Kol.

Originally Posted by Cramer
What a pair Ina and Wildfire would make! Sounds like the basis for a conniving rom com movie. If Drake's body was destroyed as a teenager (and possibly an emotionally immature one), perhaps his psyche was also frozen at that time so that developing emotional maturity would be difficult.


In his return to the Legion after "sacrificing" himself as ERG-1, Drake looked to possess one of the living. Flight rings contained something that prevented him targeting a Legionnaire, but he was seemingly able to try to do it to anyone else. Not only does Ina not wear a flight ring, but she's begun training to be a Vessel of Kol. I could see them having to inhabit the same body or have a Raymond/Stein / Captain Triumph / Randall and Hopkirk sort of relationship, but with much more bickering.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #953566 07/12/18 08:41 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141
Not much between despair and ecstacy
Offline
Not much between despair and ecstacy
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141
Tales 322

The cover introduces us to the newest Legionnaire . . . Dark Dawnstar!

I can’t help feeling that the cover plays on the riff of Jean Grey: the beloved female superhero who was given too much power and turned evil. If that’s not a trope, it should be one. The cover grabs my attention and makes me curious as to what happens inside. Too bad it’s based on a lie, or at least a gross distortion of what really happens.

By this time, of course, it was common knowledge that Marvel and DC used covers to entice readers by overdramatizing or outright misrepresenting stories. And, as fans, we accepted this because it was Marvel and DC, like a god who can do no wrong. Besides, we fans were smarter than that. We knew what was really going on, and we just played along. We would have bought the Legion if photos of Ronald Reagan had graced the cover in his underwear.

Today the cover feels like a cheat, which it is. And that’s a shame because I feel my intelligence as a reader isn’t being respected. Why not show Dawny leaning distraught over the man she’s inadvertently killed, if it’s necessary to spoil the spoiler at all?

All these reactions, and I haven’t even got to the story yet.

I, too, thought I’d missed an issue. The story begins with a new character, the Reverend Mother, delivering a long-winded monologue that vaguely hints of Jhodan now being regarded as a heretic for running off with Dawnstar. But wait, how did the Reverend Mother know this, and is that what Jhodan really did? The last issue ended only with Jhodan taking Dawnstar under his care. There was no indication that anyone (other than the jealous Ina) regarded him as doing something wrong.

Word travels fast on Jhodan’s world, and in mysterious ways.

Perhaps we’re meant to wonder how the Reverend Mother knows what’s happening—just as we’re meant to wonder why Dawny and Jhodan fell so fast for each other. Perhaps some sort of telepathic influence is going on in this world. But I’m reminded of Alfred Hitchcock’s admonition that a story teller never lies or withholds information from the audience. The characters may not know there’s a bomb under the chair and that it will go off in five seconds, but the audience should know this.

As a reader, I feel crucial information is being withheld from me—information that would not only help me enjoy the story but understand it.

Contrast this cold opening with Brainy’s actions later in the story. When Brainy encounters Spliff’s village, they fear him because he’s green. But when a local animal takes a liking to Brainy, they figure he’s all right. It’s a strange scene, but we accept it because we’re right there with Brainy in regarding it as strange. If he finds it odd, we do, too. He’s our viewpoint character—something lacking from the opening scene.

In fact, it’s through Brainy that we come to appreciate just how bizarre this world is. Spliff prays and winged creatures deliver food. The villagers ignore Brainy once they accept him. Wandering the village, Brainy discovers an altar made of materials too advanced for this culture and—the biggest surprise of all—three computer reels underneath the altar.

There are many mysteries afoot here, but only some of them are delivered in a comprehensible manner. Newell seems to have made a common mistake of novice writers: She knows so much about the world she’s created that she forgets readers don’t already know this, as well. This is why we need Brainy (and, to a lesser extent, Dawnstar) to make sense of things for us.

As for Dawny, she does what all good captives do and tries to escape. It goes badly for her. However, she gets a second chance when the Reverend Mother’s forces beset Jhodan. I like this portrayal of Dawny as someone who initially takes advantage of the confusion to escape and only then goes back to help the man who helped her. We’re used to Legionnaires always doing the right thing. It’s refreshing to see one struggle with her choices.

The running subplot, of course, is that Dawny and Jhodan are besotted with each other, but I find this less interesting than the reaction it provokes from Ina—who finally breaks with her teacher. Ina had better turn out to be a major thorn in Jhodan’s and Dawny’s sides; otherwise, all this build-up will have been for nothing.

This issue advances the storyline in several very intriguing ways—and it comes full circle when Brainy and Dawny are reunited at the end (which leaves us with another tantalizing mystery of why the villagers bow down to Jhodan and/or Dawny). The focus on just two Legionnaires is both refreshing and irritating (insofar as Brainy’s constant internal monologue goes). And the mystery over how Jhodan’s world is connected to earth (Blue Devil?!) makes me eagerly anticipate the next issue—something I couldn’t say for any part of the LSV War.

As for subplots, I feel sorry for Thom. Last issue, he came across as somewhat selfish in wanting to spirit Nura away for a vacation while she was struggling to hold the team together. This time she’s no longer in charge and he makes another attempt—an expensive one, I imagine—to take her out. She again cuts him down, accusing him of being both immature and selfish. In truth, it is she who is being selfish—complaining about her hygiene needs and belittling a man who has gone to so much effort to show her a good time.

Nura and Drake are made for each other. In an untold alt-universe story, Dawny runs off with Jhodan while Nura marries Drake. They can spend their years arguing over who is most vain without ever having to get intimate.

Dev-Em’s inclusion is for Legion completists. Levitz, like all good fans, doesn’t like to throw away an obscure character, so he gives Dev a mission and reminds us of his brief connection with Shvaughn. Reading this now, I find I don’t care enough about Dev to wonder where this is going.

The Tales run of original stories rapidly approaches its end and does so with high quality stories and risk taking, even if the delivery comes across as somewhat shaky.


Check out my new Power Club website!

The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #953582 07/13/18 07:13 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141
Not much between despair and ecstacy
Offline
Not much between despair and ecstacy
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141
Originally Posted by FC
We learn a bit more about the planet's culture, mostly the degree to which its harsh religion rules the people; there's not much revealed about any particular beliefs beyond obedience to Kol.


It is indeed a harsh depiction of religion, which was very much common at the time. It suits the needs of the story, though, and Jhodan's world is in a sort of dark/middle ages, in which fear and intolerance rule and any hint of dissent is swiftly punished. It makes a nice backdrop to reveal Dawny's and Jhodan's characters and the mystery Brainy discovers.

Quote
The manna suggests nourishment for a wandering tribe, seeking a promised land - but everyone here is settled. Possibly it appears in response to some prayer or chant in the wilderness; the children in town seem delighted to see it when Spliff arrives with some.


Good point about the people being settled yet still relying on "manna from heaven." It does appear that the winged creatures brought food in response to prayer--food in a basket, no less!

Quote
I seem to be missing something in the story: Brainy understands the speech of Spliff and the townspeople, while Dawnstar can make out no more than Jhodan's name. Does he have a better grasp of languages or are Spliff and the villagers speaking a recognizable dialect?


Good question. I read it that Brainy recognized the dialect and, with his computer mind, possesses some understanding of it, while to Dawnstar it is completely foreign.

However, it would be realistic in earth terms if Spliff's village spoke a different dialect or even language than the ruling religious class.

Quote
. . . Nura snaps at Thom. It doesn't look like any sort of permanent rift at this point, but she's the one moving away from him. She could be starting to contemplate her future as Naltor's High Seer (not sure if this is a given at this point) and appreciating the responsibilities she will have to bear; she's certainly had a good taste of leadership with the Legion.


Another possibility is that she's upset with him for not backing her during the Legion meeting in Baxter # 9. Nura remains something of a cipher--out of touch with her own emotions, perhaps, and preferring to focus on things she can control: her hygiene, her hair, etc.

Originally Posted by thoth
Behind the Reverend mother, we get a mix of technology and stonework, hinting again at the ship based origin for the Core. I wondered if there was any significance to the Reverend Mothers staff of office. If there is, I can’t think of it (unless it’s a converted Blue Devil trident of course). She later refers to it as The Crystal of Kol.


Good eye for detail! (I hadn't even noticed Blue Devil until you pointed him out.) There also appears to be a row of "computer reels" similar to the ones Brainy later discovers.

Quote
As to why Jhodan has suddenly run afoul of Kol, Dawny indicates that the two of them were intimate between last issue and this. After we saw them close to an embrace at the end of 321 Dawny says “last night, I felt I had known him forever” and “last night is gone.”


Interesting interpretation. I thought Dawny's comments only referred to her feelings toward Jhodan when they first met.

Quote
Ina refers to Dawny as “it” while she’s a “she” to Jhodan.


Wonderful bit of dialogue here.


Check out my new Power Club website!

The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #953601 07/13/18 12:17 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 16,853
Time Trapper
OP Offline
Time Trapper
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 16,853
Originally Posted by HWW
Perhaps we’re meant to wonder how the Reverend Mother knows what’s happening—just as we’re meant to wonder why Dawny and Jhodan fell so fast for each other. Perhaps some sort of telepathic influence is going on in this world. But I’m reminded of Alfred Hitchcock’s admonition that a story teller never lies or withholds information from the audience. The characters may not know there’s a bomb under the chair and that it will go off in five seconds, but the audience should know this.

As a reader, I feel crucial information is being withheld from me—information that would not only help me enjoy the story but understand it.


The question comes to mind of how much the reader has to be shown. We should be able to fill in some blanks, but need some indication of the connections. In mystery stories, you may only find out at the end what happened, but the logical clues were (or should have been) there all along for the reader to piece together. The crucial information which was absent in this story would have made for a much smoother read had it been included. I don't think it would have taken much in the way of dialogue to point us in the right direction. If all is explained in the next issue, that will be something of a cheat.

Quote
Nura and Drake are made for each other. In an untold alt-universe story, Dawny runs off with Jhodan while Nura marries Drake. They can spend their years arguing over who is most vain without ever having to get intimate.


Hah! But you might be onto something there - like the marriage of two spoiled, self-centered celebrities. At least Dawny and Jhodan would be happy. Wildfire is able to inhabit the body of others (on occasion), so one wonders if some compromise couldn't have been worked out. I'm not sure to what degree Jhodan and Wildfire have the same personality. They're both rather demanding and arrogant.


Holy Cats of Egypt!
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #953667 07/14/18 03:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,483
Tempus Fugitive
Offline
Tempus Fugitive
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,483
Comment Comments

Originally Posted by HWW
Word travels fast on Jhodan’s world, and in mysterious ways.


And the followers of Kol went out unto the world, spreading the Word of Kol with haste, as they liked a good gossip.

Originally Posted by HWW
As a reader, I feel crucial information is being withheld from me—information that would not only help me enjoy the story but understand it. … Newell seems to have made a common mistake of novice writers: She knows so much about the world she’s created that she forgets readers don’t already know this, as well. This is why we need Brainy (and, to a lesser extent, Dawnstar) to make sense of things for us.


A bit like Cramer, I was holding off until next issue in case everything ties up nicely. I wish it was only novice writers that fell into this one. smile

Originally Posted by HWW
I like this portrayal of Dawny as someone who initially takes advantage of the confusion to escape and only then goes back to help the man who helped her. We’re used to Legionnaires always doing the right thing. It’s refreshing to see one struggle with her choices.


That’s an interesting spot. Dawny comes from a professional background, before she entered the Legion Academy. Being a bronze age recruit may also give her a slightly less earnest approach. It’s good to see the writers make each member stand out.

Originally Posted by HWW
Ina had better turn out to be a major thorn in Jhodan’s and Dawny’s sides; otherwise, all this build-up will have been for nothing.


She better get her act together, or she’ll be Ina lot of trouble! smile

Originally Posted by HWW
…and it comes full circle when Brainy and Dawny are reunited at the end (which leaves us with another tantalizing mystery of why the villagers bow down to Jhodan and/or Dawny).


As they bowed to Jhodan at the start, I took it to be the same here.

Originally Posted by HWW
Nura and Drake are made for each other. In an untold alt-universe story, Dawny runs off with Jhodan while Nura marries Drake. They can spend their years arguing over who is most vain without ever having to get intimate.


And Nura can always use Drake’s visor to see her reflection! A definite Lost Legion tale. What a leadership team they’d make!

Originally Posted by HWW
The Tales run of original stories rapidly approaches its end and does so with high quality stories and risk taking, even if the delivery comes across as somewhat shaky.


I’m going to miss the Tales. I’ve been enjoying them more than the Baxter one.

Originally Posted by HWW
It is indeed a harsh depiction of religion, which was very much common at the time.


Do you mean that religions were depicted harshly at the time this was written or that it’s a depiction of feudal life under a harsh religion of medieval times?

Originally Posted by HWW
Originally Posted by cramer


The manna suggests nourishment for a wandering tribe, seeking a promised land - but everyone here is settled. Possibly it appears in response to some prayer or chant in the wilderness; the children in town seem delighted to see it when Spliff arrives with some.


Good point about the people being settled yet still relying on "manna from heaven." It does appear that the winged creatures brought food in response to prayer--food in a basket, no less!


As we have hungry, desperate tribesmen at the start, yet manna from heaven, I wonder just how much of the suffering is controlled by Kol. A populace forced into subservience through hunger/fear may suit it and its followers’ purposes.


Originally Posted by HWW
Originally Posted by cramer
Good question. I read it that Brainy recognized the dialect and, with his computer mind, possesses some understanding of it, while to Dawnstar it is completely foreign.


However, it would be realistic in earth terms if Spliff's village spoke a different dialect or even language than the ruling religious class.


I was thinking that Brainy’s recognition comes form the time he spent with Superboy back in the Adventure days. For someone with such an interest in Time Travel and trips to that era, it seems logical that he’d learn the language. Dawny went back to the 20th century during the Reflecto saga, but she didn’t interact with anyone there.

Incidentally, the Legionnaires that were walking around Smallville thought that feisty Lana Lang would make a good match for Wildfire! A Drake-Lana-Nura love triangle?!


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
thoth lad #953683 07/14/18 07:00 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141
Not much between despair and ecstacy
Offline
Not much between despair and ecstacy
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141
Originally Posted by thoth lad


Originally Posted by HWW
It is indeed a harsh depiction of religion, which was very much common at the time.


Do you mean that religions were depicted harshly at the time this was written or that it’s a depiction of feudal life under a harsh religion of medieval times?


I meant the former, though I've been struggling to think of examples. smile


Quote
I was thinking that Brainy’s recognition comes form the time he spent with Superboy back in the Adventure days. For someone with such an interest in Time Travel and trips to that era, it seems logical that he’d learn the language. Dawny went back to the 20th century during the Reflecto saga, but she didn’t interact with anyone there.


Good point about Brainy visiting Smallville. I think it's been established that the Legionnaires' earplugs act as universal translators (which, like other technology, probably wouldn't work on Jhodan's world), but it makes sense that Brainy would study the languages of places and times he visits. The last time I recall him visiting the 20th century was in issue 198, when he and Element Lad interviewed witnesses of Superboy's encounter with the Persuader and Emerald Empress. It might have been easier to conduct interviews by speaking the actual language rather than relying on a translator.

Quote
Incidentally, the Legionnaires that were walking around Smallville thought that feisty Lana Lang would make a good match for Wildfire! A Drake-Lana-Nura love triangle?!


The Legion missed a great business opportunity by not starting a matchmaking service for disembodied blobs of energy.


Check out my new Power Club website!

The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
He Who Wanders #953707 07/15/18 01:34 AM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,483
Tempus Fugitive
Offline
Tempus Fugitive
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,483
Originally Posted by He Who Wanders
Originally Posted by thoth lad

Originally Posted by HWW
It is indeed a harsh depiction of religion, which was very much common at the time.


Do you mean that religions were depicted harshly at the time this was written or that it&#146;s a depiction of feudal life under a harsh religion of medieval times?


I meant the former, though I've been struggling to think of examples. smile


Definitely a differing mileage on "harshly" smile

Originally Posted by HWW
Originally Posted by thoth
Incidentally, the Legionnaires that were walking around Smallville thought that feisty Lana Lang would make a good match for Wildfire! A Drake-Lana-Nura love triangle?!


The Legion missed a great business opportunity by not starting a matchmaking service for disembodied blobs of energy.


Do you have a misunderstood personality and sometimes struggle to contain yourself? Then come to Legion Love. We're open any time, and we mean any time. So why wait to get the partner of your clingy obsession dreams?


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #953721 07/15/18 07:21 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141
Not much between despair and ecstacy
Offline
Not much between despair and ecstacy
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141
Originally Posted by thoh
Definitely a differing mileage on "harshly" smile


I'm not sure what you mean. Religion is always a contentious subject, and it's easy to depict its followers as narrow-minded, unyielding, and dogmatic (which many of them are). However, religions have also provided people with a framework for understanding their world and behaving appropriately towards one another. Many followers of Jesus Christ, for example, look to him as a role model for how to conduct themselves in the world (helping the poor, healing the sick, welcoming people who are less than perfect). Religion, like any other human institution, is a mixture of good and bad. Like politics and business, it is used to control people and keep the powerful in power. Also like those institutions, much good comes from religion (building hospitals, fellowship among people who previously felt lost, etc.).

The depiction of religion on Jhodan's world is very much on the harsh side from what we've seen. The ruling class dominates the peasants, and transgressions are swiftly punished. Yet this is counterbalanced by the depiction of Spliff and his village. When Spliff prays, food is delivered ("ask and ye shall receive"). The villagers seem happy if eccentric and are not terribly bothered by a strange-looking foreigner in their midst. How they receive Brainy stands in sharp contrast to how the Septi received Dawny. Could it be that some of Kol's followers are not as intolerant as others?

Perhaps this is meant to be a balanced depiction of a primitive culture dominated by religion. It reminds me of the even-handed manner in which Star Trek and Babylon 5 often dealt with religious themes.


Check out my new Power Club website!

The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #953722 07/15/18 08:03 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141
Not much between despair and ecstacy
Offline
Not much between despair and ecstacy
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141
Thoth's reflections on the other comics he was reading at the time reminded me that I used to keep my own "Top 40" chart for comics. I rated issues in terms of story and art quality (or how I understood quality in those days). I read about 30 titles a month and they were overwhelmingly Marvel and DC. (I had just starting to make forays into other publishers.)

Here is my Top 25 (plus two) of January 15, 1985:

1. New Teen Titans # 7 -- DC
2. America Vs. Justice Society # 4 -- DC
3. Star Trek # 13 -- DC
4. Legion of Super-Heroes # 9 -- DC
5. Jonni Thunder, A.K.A. Thunderbolt # 2 -- DC
6. All-Star Squadron # 44 -- DC
7. Elementals # 3 -- Comico
8. Batman & The Outsiders # 19 -- DC
9. Badger # 5 -- First
10. Dreadstar # 17 -- Marvel/Epic

11. Nexus # 8 -- First
12. Avengers # 254 -- Marvel
13. Captain America # 305 -- Marvel
14. Iron Man # 193 -- Marvel
15. Infinity Inc. # 13 -- DC
16. Power Man & Iron Fist # 116 -- Marvel
17. Amazing Spider-Man # 264 -- Marvel
18. Dalgoda # 3 -- Fantagraphics
19. Fantastic Four # 277 -- Marvel
20. Secret Wars # 12 -- Marvel

21. Tales of the Legion of Super-Heroes # 322 -- DC
22. American Flagg! # 19 -- First
23. Marvel Tales # 174 -- Marvel
24. Blue Devil # 11 -- DC
25. Green Lantern # 187 -- DC
26. Thor # 354 -- Marvel
27. Flash # 344 -- DC

So, I thought highly of LSH 9 even then, but was less fond of Tales 322 (my current opinion is reversed). DC was clearly on a roll in those days, as their titles dominate the Top 10. I was less enthused by Marvel's offerings; hence, they are grouped in the middle.

One of my standout memories from this chart is Dalgoda, an off-the-wall science fiction series about a dog-like alien who interacts with humans. ("Dalgoda" spelled backwards is "a dog lad.")


Check out my new Power Club website!

The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #953735 07/15/18 12:45 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,483
Tempus Fugitive
Offline
Tempus Fugitive
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,483
I agree it can be contentious, he typed ploughing on regardless smile I’d like to run with your point on “Jhodan's world is very much on the harsh side from what we've seen” I’d suggest that alongside any harshness in the writing about Kol, we have also an idealistic perspective of religion. Unity has been achieved from many faiths, with all still having a place in current practices. There is a priesthood that actively rejects corruption in effectively upholding the religious and secular values of a society where there’s no separation of church and state. Finally, there actually is a higher power at work on Kol.

The people on the ship that crashed/ landed on Kol (it seems that this is what happened) look to have come from a wide range of religious and racial backgrounds. Centuries later, their descendants use language and practices from each of those religions and there’s multi-racial representation (well, it’s still an ‘80s comic book, but it’s there). Somewhere along the way, a single religion was formed, uniting all of the others. Each of our religions espouses peace, so that unity on Kol could be seen as a great achievement. There’s unity across the planet.

A more realistic view of our religions suggests that, instead of peace, they have engaged in every atrocity possible. So even if that was carried out on Kol, it couldn’t be any worse that what we’ve seen here. That there was a united outcome is to their credit.

The Arms of Kol live an ascetic life. Their temples are the largest buildings around, but this is partly because they’re formed from the starship that brought them to the planet. The Arms of Kol, or the Core, are rigorous in their self-discipline and, importantly, self-awareness. We see a lesson that self-indulgence is not a thing that is looked upon kindly, indicating an order that acts in service to Kol rather than in the advancement/desires of any individual. “The Core holds no special privileges, we are his vessels, nothing more.”

As you point out, HWW, every human institution contains plenty of people who would act only in their own interest. It only varies in the degree to which the organisation involved is content to support it. On Kol, as the Core are also enforcers (no separation of church and state here), so the rigorous enforcement is even more important.

The lesson of the local person giving the bowl of flowers is a good example.

At first glance, it looks as though Jhodan is being harsh when he throws their gift of flowers to the ground. But we’re shown the lesson through Ina’s reaction. All the people of Kol have duties to perform. That applies just as much to the Core. By not performing them adequately, the locals try to gain favour by providing a gift to The Core.

While the people of Kol bow before its priests, it shouldn’t be mistaken for them bowing to those priests. They are worshipping Kol. Jhodan’s lessons to Ina are quite clear. There’s “The Core holds no special privileges, we are his vessels, nothing more” again.

It’s essentially a bribe to curry a more favourable outcome. Ina would have accepted the gift, and that fundamentally changes the relationship between her duties as an Arm of Kol and everyone else. If that happens, the system begins to fall apart, with some being treated differently to others. Jhodan knows this and strongly reminds Ina of these principles. Jhodan is not punishing the locals. He enforces no punishment to them. He’s telling them, and Ina, of their responsibilities and that that those duties cannot be bought out of.

That the system has survived as long as it has without obvious corruption, is an ideal that we’ve not come close to.

The continuation of The Core’s practices without obvious signs of corruption is all the more remarkable as their god really is at work there. The Core are no group of charlatans peddling absolutions and salvations, while waving sacred relics of starship parts. Their direct observance of their beliefs brings tangible returns, such as in the delivery of manna.

The idea that there are direct rewards available, adds another layer to the incident with the villagers and the bowl of fruit. If The Core can be bribed, or otherwise look favourably on a place, then that town may really do better, possibly to the detriment of others. More manna, more rain etc.

Having a deity tangibly at work is a pretty idealistic outcome of any belief system. That it’s not descended into disaster due to the vessels of that god is quite something. Perhaps it’s the knowledge of a direct god that keeps everyone, including the Core, in check. Never mind flammable shrubs to help deliver messages. On Kol, as Ina is discovering, there will be no manna if your mind has darker motives. And there’s no hiding that, which puts it above anything we’ve got.

Kol has all sorts of variety in its people. We’ve seen fanatical tribesmen, overly penitent villagers and others who are much more relaxed in their lives. We’ve seen Core members who are questioning, others who follow without a thought and initiates of have a lot to learn. There’s hatred of “the other” and “the heretic” which we know about only too well. But Jhodan and some of the Core show that there’s hope there too.

It’s a world where technology has not reached the levels of other parts of the UP. But it would be doing the locals a disservice to think of them as backwards. If anything, I think the austerity brings the religious overtones of the story more into focus.

It may well turn out that its Awian plugging herself into the cryogenic chamber of the starship’s captain for advice and using the ship’s systems to enforce those instructions. But that’s not to say that there aren’t things there that our world couldn’t learn from.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #953756 07/15/18 05:56 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141
Not much between despair and ecstacy
Offline
Not much between despair and ecstacy
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141
Very well put, thoth. You made me consider things from a new perspective.

You're right that the rejection of a gift is not a punishment. Jhodan's reason for rejecting the give makes perfect sense.

Your post gives me new respect for Newell, who must have been aware of these ideas (or at least a very good observer of such cultures) when she wrote the story. The idea of the planet being a very successful and long-lasting integration of church and state went right over my head.


Check out my new Power Club website!

The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #953830 07/16/18 03:28 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,483
Tempus Fugitive
Offline
Tempus Fugitive
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,483
Loved seeing your Top 40 HWW! Hopefully there will be more of those? You were getting quite a lot of what were considered to be the top Indies.

I've never read Badger, but the art always looked good. Likewise for Nexus, which I have only one or two of, if that. I know of Dalgoda mainly through the ads I've seen in Amazing Heroes back issues. No surprise since it was the same publisher. I've picked up some of the Elementals and American Flaggs over the years. I think the first one I picked up was post Chaykin, but the earlier ones are better. With All-Star Squadron, America vs JSA, Jonni Thunder and Infinity Inc, Earth 2 was well represented. When I got the other issues of America vs JSA, it was fairly verbose. Infinity Inc struck me the same way. But they were packed with comic book history, which was a gold mine to a newer reader. It's no surprise that The Flash was hanging in there, with the trail still going on. Had you been reading the JLA?

1. New Teen Titans # 7 -- DC
2. America Vs. Justice Society # 4 -- DC
3. Star Trek # 13 -- DC
4. Legion of Super-Heroes # 9 -- DC
5. Jonni Thunder, A.K.A. Thunderbolt # 2 -- DC
6. All-Star Squadron # 44 -- DC
7. Elementals # 3 -- Comico
8. Batman & The Outsiders # 19 -- DC
9. Badger # 5 -- First
10. Dreadstar # 17 -- Marvel/Epic

11. Nexus # 8 -- First
12. Avengers # 254 -- Marvel
13. Captain America # 305 -- Marvel
14. Iron Man # 19 -- Marvel
15. Infinity Inc. # 13 -- DC
16. Power Man & Iron Fist # 116 -- Marvel
17. Amazing Spider-Man # 264 -- Marvel
18. Dalgoda # 3 -- Fantagraphics
19. Fantastic Four # 277 -- Marvel
20. Secret Wars # 12 -- Marvel

21. Tales of the Legion of Super-Heroes # 322 -- DC
22. American Flagg! # 19 -- First
23. Marvel Tales # 174 -- Marvel
24. Blue Devil # 11 -- DC
25. Green Lantern # 187 -- DC
26. Thor # 354 -- Marvel
27. Flash # 344 -- DC


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
thoth lad #953848 07/16/18 06:50 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141
Not much between despair and ecstacy
Offline
Not much between despair and ecstacy
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141
Originally Posted by thoth lad
Loved seeing your Top 40 HWW! Hopefully there will be more of those?


Thanks.

As they say, there's more where that came from. smile

Quote
I've never read Badger, but the art always looked good.


The Badger was about a hero who was mentally ill, which made me uncertain how I was supposed to respond to the character: with pity, with laughter, etc.? In hindsight, I wish I had given it and some of the others (esp. American Flagg!) more of a chance--but they were so different from the mainstream super-hero diet I had fed myself for a dozen years that I didn't know how to take them. Had I read these after college and literature courses, I might have appreciated the incredible diversity, experimentation, and points of view available in the '80s.

The one indie on this list I kept up with was Nexus, which at least had the outer trappings of a super-hero (plus an off-the-wall science fiction setting and irresistible supporting characters like Sundra, Judah Maccabee, and Tyrone). Nexus # 8, I believe, even guest-starred The Badger. (Both series were written by Mike Baron.)

Quote
When I got the other issues of America vs JSA, it was fairly verbose. Infinity Inc struck me the same way. But they were packed with comic book history, which was a gold mine to a newer reader.


Agreed. Roy Thomas was a very verbose writer, but his JSA, All-Star Squadron, and Infinity Inc. were a universe unto themselves in terms of continuity and history. In fact, they were almost the opposite of the Legion as they were set in or tied to the past yet had complex, interweaving stories featuring large casts of characters.

Quote
Had you been reading the JLA?


Yes. In fact, there are quite a few titles absent from this list because the next issues hadn't been published in time for my "deadline." According to my list on the back of the chart, I was waiting on Crisis on Infinite Earths # 2, Fury of Firestorm # 35, JLA # 238, Superman: The Secret Years # 4, Tales of the New Teen Titans # 53, Iceman # 4, New Defenders # 142, and Wally Wood's T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents # 2.



Check out my new Power Club website!

The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #953864 07/17/18 06:42 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 16,853
Time Trapper
OP Offline
Time Trapper
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 16,853
LSH #10 Election Day by Paul Levitz, art by Steve Lightle & Larry Mahlstedt, colors by Carl Gafford, letters by John Costanza

[Linked Image]

Sun Boy, Wildfire and Invisible Kid protect the three candidates chosen by computer to run for Earthgov President: a man from Mexico, a wealthy man from India and a young woman student from China. A Khund warrior attacks each one and is defeated by the Legionnaire. In the fight, Invisible Kid suddenly and unwittingly teleports himself and the Khund into outer space, killing the Khund, who does not have a transsuit.

Above Earth, Element Lad, Dream Girl, Blok, Star Boy and Chameleon Boy join SP ships to watch for a possible Khund invasion - and engage in some debate and bickering. They pick up Invisible Kid after his teleportation disaster.

In Tokyo, Timber Wolf contemplates Karate Kid's will, which will leave him a share of the Orando's credits left behind when Projectra took the planet into another dimension - after he performs some very dangerous task. Karate Kid's Sensei offers to accompany him.

On a vacation asteroid, Lightning Lad and Saturn Girl discuss returning to the Legion and the joys of parenthood.

Cosmic Boy announces that he plans to take an extended vacation with Night Girl on Kathoon and hints at making several changes in his life.

Colossal Boy and Yera enjoy an evening with his parents, when another Khund bursts in to murder Marte Allon. Colossal Boy fights him off, but passes out from his injuries.

Mojai Desai celebrates his election to President and is congratulated by a shifty looking character named Vid Gupta.

Comments:
Two things really stand out in this issue: Jacques causing the death of a Khund assassin through an uncontrolled new power and the promise of trouble to come with Vid Gupta.

Vid Gupta is a classic cliffhanger; we learn just enough about him to know that he's got evil plans. That glint in his eye made me think momentarily of Computo (like the sparks around Danielle Foccart as she left Legion HQ), although I know how the story turns out. Computo will eventually take over a Presidential Assistant in DnA, but for now, he could be a Khund agent. Another candidate that might come to mind is the guy who has a history of meddling with the Presidency, Universo. I doubt that I put the pieces together when I first read this story, however.

The Legion has been flirting with the killing question and here we have a clear case of a member directly causing a death. Jacques wasn't in control of this new power; although he had no intention of killing the Khund, it's questionable (in hindsight) if he should be an active member until he fully understands his power set. He's admitted previously that he doesn't understand or know all he can do. While I groan a bit at yet another new power, the situation presents very interesting practical and ethical questions (which I don't believe the Legion really address in future issues). Legionnaires are fretting over potential new members' inexperience and here's a full member who's a wild card.

We learn why Val was so rich, but not whether he shared half the spoils of Orando's wealth with Jeckie, or was just accorded a portion of it. His dangerous mission is still unspecified, so that keeps us interested, although it threatens to veer into cliché territory with the wise old teacher joining the quest.

The status of the three founders continues to be uncertain. I find this is dragging on a bit long, especially for Rokk, who is indeed a tease regarding his future plans. The case of Garth and Imra is far more understandable, torn between the desire to serve in the Legion versus devoting time to their child.

The Earthgov election process has been seen before, when Marte Allon was elected. It's refreshing to see a diversity of characters proposed for the Presidency and a ridiculously short campaign period, although the idea of a computer choosing them in this current age of A.I. (not to mention Computo running around, acting wacky) is worrisome.

The way our world has gone global, I wonder how much ethnic difference will remain in 1000 years but the Legion comic up to this period presented distinctions between Earth's races and societies. It seems a bit quaint now.

The fight scenes between the Legionnaires and the Khund assassins are well done and reflect the personalities of each Legionnaire but are personally of less interest than the promise of troubles to come


Holy Cats of Egypt!
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #953880 07/17/18 12:51 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,483
Tempus Fugitive
Offline
Tempus Fugitive
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,483
LoSH v3 10

The cover is overly busy. The Khund and the poster work. But then we have three Legionnaires in close, mid and long shot added. A space scape and a Legion cruiser are needlessly put in too. Only the first part works.

But the cover does introduce two of the Earth president candidates to replace Marte Allon. So, seeing one of them on the first page isn’t a mystery. The opening scene where Dirk stops a Khund assassin is supposed to inform the reader of an assassination plot while having a light tonal touch. The Khund is no match for Dirk who electrocutes him in the candidates off bedroom pool. The guy looks charred, but the incoming Science police look to prevent yet another violation of the Legion code against killing. There is the question of how the Khund got as close to the candidate’s bed as that, and why he didn’t just take a pot shot at him while engaging Dirk. The answer is simply that it enable Levitz to get everyone in the one room to move the plot along.

The plot is that Earth selects its candidates by computer. They are then given a day to campaign before the vote takes place. A Khundian terror team has targeted the candidates, and some see it as a diversion form an invasion. There’s no mention of who created the programme. Nor is the Khundian actions seen as an act of war. It’s as if it’s just the sort of thing the UP has to put up with. It does lack even the flimsiest deniability.

Blok acts as everyman to get most of this explained. Behind him Dreamy makes a snide remark and Element Lad calls her on it. Perhaps this comes from her last encounter with Thom, when she was thinking about how important the Legion was. Just an issue ago, the two seemed fine, but there is tension there.

Jacques stops the second attempt. He seems an odd choice to stop a cyborg Khundian assassin. It turns out that his invisibility power doesn’t work against Khundian optics either. If that applies to a lot of systems, then a sci fi world could be a problem for his effectiveness. It seems he’s there to push his own subplot further forward. With the Lyle Norg subplot out of the way, Jacques opens another portal to an unknown realm. No dream demon pops out, which must be a relief. The Khund isn’t interested and moves in for the kill. Unfortunately for him, Jacques warping abilities activate when he’s threatened to a certain level (but after Darkseid – actually I wonder if there could be a connection between them activating and the Boom Tube technology he went through in GDS). Jacques teleports him into space, killing him.

With Dawny killing someone in Tales, and Jacques here, it looks as though it’s going to be a busy time for Legion trials – Judge Kallor presiding.

We don’t learn much about surprised candidate one. Candidate two, Leung, has written a paper on streamlining government. That makes me wonder just how much bureaucratic fat there is in the UP. How do they all feel about a computer using a paper to point it out to them? The third candidate Mojai Desai is much more confident. His family have been leaders since the time of caste (see also The Dominion) He seems to be in a position of some power already that enables him to bestow wealth and comfort. That makes me think about Leung’s paper again.

Wildfire is the Legionnaire who stops this assassin. For a moment it looks as though he’s going to have problems when he’s attacked by a plasma weapon. But he absorbs it and defeats his foe at the cost of much of Desai’s home. Wildfire does nothing to ingratiate himself to Desai’s family, putting his feet on their table during a meal, and ignoring their conversation. He’s not exactly a good will ambassador for the team. But what do such things mean to Drake? He doesn’t eat, as he’s been trying to tell their serving droid. What family connections does he have now? E only has the Legion and he’s been waiting for a battle with the Khunds. No little part of this is wrapped up in his ego, which took a battering the last time he faced a Khund. There’s a lot to learn about Drake in this scene. The Lightle visual of his suit having absorbed the energy is a favourite.

Elsewhere, Garth and Imra who are enjoying being parents (did one of the creative team have a kid around this time?) , but also considering their place as Legionnaires. They’ve spoken with each other, with the other founder Cosmic Boy, and with Brande. Cosmic Boy also takes the successful resolution of the Khund attacks to announce his leave of absence. We get another nice little reminder of Shady and Lar’s Talok adventure (keep linking those books), as Cos tells the others that “it’s the beginning of several changes in my life that will make sense.” Despite one of those things being a need to “shake them up—to change things around here” and that he’s been going on about new members for ages, he tells Cham that the search for members isn’t one of the reasons for his LOA. Right Cos. As we’ll “find out in due course” some of the behind the scenes things for Cos wouldn’t quite work out as intended.

Cos is leaving a little early. Although their lost team mates returned, Brin immediately took LOA and now Cos is going. Later, Gim is injured. As the team were previously exhausted, there’s not a huge difference form how things were.

Lightle showing us groups on either side of the holo-call was a very nice touch.

There’s a sting in the Khundian plot. With the Legion called back form a potential invasion and the three candidates protected, the Khunds strike at the outgoing president, Marte Allon. Fortunately, Gim is there. His powers are neutralised in a way that makes you wonder why the Khunds aren’t better at destroying Legionnaires. But Gim is more than his powers and his sheer strength of will is enough to defeat the Khund. He’s shot in the shoulder by the villain’s multi-setting blaster. Gim remains a bit of a target no matter what size he takes. That Adult Legion story still echoes around. While it would have detracted a bit from a very strong scene for Gim, it could have also provided Yera with an opportunity to show her skills.

Desai’s confidence was well founded and he’s duly declared the election winner. At his side is vid-gupta, with a villainous (and distinctive) twinkle in his eye. Vid-Gupta (clue in the name) is known to Desai. Considering the plans Vid-Gupta has, I’m reminded again that no one asks who programmes the election computer. I doubt vid-gupta would have shown up at the side of the other two candidates. That means the computer has been tampered with. How long has that been going on and how often will it happen again, are questions could be a long time in being answered.

His comment about never having been referred to as “too kind” before is a bit on the nose. Normally, that would result in further questions. But it’s a finale here, to show just how villainous he must be.

There’s an interesting exchange between TInya and Vi. Vi is focused on the power, guts and immediate threat of the Khunds. It reflects the approach she’s taken since her return. Tinya has a broader view, pointing out that while the Khund failed their actions certainly drew a lot of effort from the UP.

Continuing the Orando plotline, Brin meets Karate Kid’s teacher, and we find out that Brin has inherited billions from Karate Kid, as his heir, Projectra has moved the planet elsewhere. There seems to be plenty of danger in fulfilling the terms of the request. But Brin is prepared to do it. It’s good to see him sense the approach of Sensei, and also to move away from the sometimes moping, sometimes comedy duo with Blok routine. Points to Levitz for not just settling in on one view of a character, which is all too easy to do.

This issue actually turns out to be another chapter in a wider plot that started when Marte Allon announced her resignation. The Khunds are useful distractions to put some of the pieces on the board. Considering the tension Levitz raised between the UP and the Khunds in Omen/Prophet, it would have been nice to have seen some repercussions following their actions here. That there weren’t any, is another sign that they were there for other reasons.

Despite the dangers they face, there are plenty of lighter moments. Dirk with other things on his mind while protecting his candidate and the reaction of Leung’s family, and Tinya’s reaction to Cos.

The subplots are particularly strong in this issue: A possible violation of the Legion code, Brin’s dangerous task and the founders possibly stepping back, with Cos actually taking an action towards it. All help support the main plot, which is neatly segmented and marked as part of a larger story to come. Similar in structure to a lot of the issues we’ve seen, but just a bit more engaging than the Controller story.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #953884 07/17/18 01:39 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,483
Tempus Fugitive
Offline
Tempus Fugitive
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31,483
Originally Posted by Cramer
I doubt that I put the pieces together when I first read this story, however.


I might have seen Universo on a cover by the time the newsstand version of this came round, but I’d not have known the background. Occasionally Who’s Who would give a clue, but “U” is still a ways off in that title. On the plus side, everything I’m reading in the Legion at this time is fresh, as I’m being introduced to everyone. The stories have to stand on their own two feet, but don’t compare between a villains’ appearances.

Originally Posted by Cramer
The Legion has been flirting with the killing question and here we have a clear case of a member directly causing a death. Jacques wasn't in control of this new power; although he had no intention of killing the Khund, it's questionable (in hindsight) if he should be an active member until he fully understands his power set. He's admitted previously that he doesn't understand or know all he can do.


I agree completely. The Legion have rejected plenty of applicants who can’t control their power. Imagine if Jacques was in an Adventure tryout. The invisibility would be fine, but when hordes of tentacles came out of the portal Jacques had just summoned, Dirk would be on his feet and saying “Rejected!” in no time. There have been hints up unto now. So it’s negligent that these had not been investigated. What if it was Element Lad’s transmutation powers malfunctioning, or Wildfire irradiating a street every now and again. They would be isolated until it was solved.

Originally Posted by Cramer
While I groan a bit at yet another new power, the situation presents very interesting practical and ethical questions (which I don't believe the Legion really address in future issues). Legionnaires are fretting over potential new members' inexperience and here's a full member who's a wild card.


Jacques has often been a Legionnaire I’ve had problems seeing fit into the missions we see. He did well in the recent espionage mission. His gimmick is often to push plots forward. But that’s a writing device rather than a character finding a real role within a team. I don’t think it was until v4 that I thought he had a skillset.

Originally Posted by Cramer
We learn why Val was so rich, but not whether he shared half the spoils of Orando's wealth with Jeckie, or was just accorded a portion of it. His dangerous mission is still unspecified, so that keeps us interested, although it threatens to veer into cliché territory with the wise old teacher joining the quest.


A wise old teacher with a name that handily matches his function. I can’t wait for The Doctor and The Engineer to pop up form the Authority. smile

Originally Posted by Cramer
The status of the three founders continues to be uncertain. I find this is dragging on a bit long, especially for Rokk, who is indeed a tease regarding his future plans. The case of Garth and Imra is far more understandable, torn between the desire to serve in the Legion versus devoting time to their child.


It just occurred to me that perhaps this is was part of the plotting session for the first year. The death of a Legionnaire in the opening arc and the removal of the founders in the closing one of the year. A membership drive opening the second. Everything in between is just pacing out the steps towards that predestined goal. It’s how a lot of books have been done since. And a lot of those plots drag on far too long. Maybe Levitz was ahead of his time, for better and worse on that one.

Perhaps I’m also underestimating what a big deal it was to have the founders transition into a new role in the team. Sure, other teams have changed members. The Fantastic Four had probably all quit for varying lengths by this point. But they’d be back. I don’t think Garth really came back this side of Zero Hour. With the Code against killing also under the spotlight and the membership drive, there is a feeling of lasting change within the book.

Originally Posted by Cramer
The Earthgov election process has been seen before, when Marte Allon was elected. It's refreshing to see a diversity of characters proposed for the Presidency and a ridiculously short campaign period, although the idea of a computer choosing them in this current age of A.I. (not to mention Computo running around, acting wacky) is worrisome.

It was really refreshing to see such a diverse group all selected for President.

Originally Posted by Cramer
The way our world has gone global, I wonder how much ethnic difference will remain in 1000 years but the Legion comic up to this period presented distinctions between Earth's races and societies. It seems a bit quaint now.


The way bronze age Legion stories would have it is that every ethnic group went to its own planet, ensuring diversity. smile What if centuries from now, babies are genetically modified to represent the ethnic cultures we have in our century, since in the future they’ve all but merged. It has both the quaint result and the sci-fi that we see in the Legion comics.

Originally Posted by Cramer
The fight scenes between the Legionnaires and the Khund assassins are well done and reflect the personalities of each Legionnaire but are personally of less interest than the promise of troubles to come


I agree. It was nice that it didn’t just focus on the winner and a straight line into the next part of the plot. Getting to see the other contenders, gave us a link to Jacques, Drake and eventually Gim subplots. Which I should have given some credit for in my comments above really smile


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #953970 07/18/18 06:49 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141
Not much between despair and ecstacy
Offline
Not much between despair and ecstacy
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141
LSH 10

I actually like the cover. It has a movie poster quality, and contains enough information to capture the various aspects of the story (which are also rather disconnected). Wildfire’s hand reaching through the Khund’s eye and unleashing a blast makes an arresting visual. Sun Boy’s flaming arc at the bottom adds a nice touch.

Oddly, the one candidate whose face is shot out in the candidates’ poster is the one who gets elected. I don’t know if this is meant to be foreshadowing, but, as I recall nothing comes of it.

It’s also odd that the Interlac word on the left-hand side of the cover reads “Vote.” Yet the candidates are all selected by computer as is the eventual winner. I’m unclear on who was voting or why it was necessary for Senor Lopyt to campaign.

1985 was not a national election year in the US, though Ronald Reagan began his second term as president shortly before this issue was published. I can’t help but wonder if this issue is meant to comment on the inefficiency and bloating of the US election process. In the Legion’s time, candidates are selected by computer, and those selected are not professional politicians (though Mojai might be). They cannot spend months or years campaigning, running media ads, and slandering the opposition. Strangely, Blok asks if humans cannot choose their leaders in a simpler manner, but that’s exactly what’s happened here. I wonder what Element Lad means by “we’ve tried.”

The concept of computers electing the president makes me think of the Electoral College and the recent debates over its validity. In the 30th century, elections have been taken even further out of the hands of the voting public. The “leveling” the Electoral College is supposed to create is taken to extremes. But, it was 1985, and we had much more faith in computers than we do now.

The story itself fails to grab me. It seems all over the place, even though there’s a consistent theme: The Legionnaires protect three candidates from Khund assassins. But that’s it. The Legionnaires are relegated to supporting characters in this story and we don’t get to spend enough time with any of the three candidates to care for them or their struggles. (Leung is the most interesting—a high school or college student who was selected because she wrote a paper on government efficiency—and who has a sister (or mother?) who playfully questions her decency. There’s so much more I wanted to know about Leung, but, alas, we are only teased about her and her life.)

A couple of plotlines are advanced—Jacques accidentally kills a Khund and may be the next Legionnaire up for court martial (after Dawnstar, of course); Rokk announces his leave of absence and hints at further changes in his life. (As a reader then, I thought he was going to propose to Lydda; I was disappointed when he didn’t.) There are several nice character moments. (One nice touch is that the Legionnaires are so highly regarded as professionals that it takes only one of them to guard each candidate.) But these are just crumbs of stories. There is no cookie.

This may be the first Legion issue in which I’ve admired the art more than the story. At best, the art and story have complemented each other for excellent narration and breathtaking visuals. More often, it’s the writing I gravitate toward, regardless of the quality of the art. But here Lightle shines (pun semi-intended). His faces are distinct and attractive. The action scenes move the story along with clear, concise images, and the mood is palpable, especially in the Brin/Sensei scene. (Kudos must also be given to Mahlstedt and colorist Gafford.) Unlike previous issues, in which Lightle seemed cramped to include so many visuals, here he has the space to stretch out and breathe. That’s one advantage of Levitz’s wafer-thin plot.


Check out my new Power Club website!

The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
Fat Cramer #953975 07/18/18 07:08 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141
Not much between despair and ecstacy
Offline
Not much between despair and ecstacy
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141
Originally Posted by Fat Cramer

Vid Gupta is a classic cliffhanger; we learn just enough about him to know that he's got evil plans. . . . I doubt that I put the pieces together when I first read this story, however.


This plotline built so slowly and over such a long period of time that I didn't put the pieces together, either. It's interesting to watch it unfold now, but rather anticlimactic. This sort of build up would work better in a novel or TV series, I suppose, than a monthly comic book.

Quote
The Legion has been flirting with the killing question and here we have a clear case of a member directly causing a death. Jacques wasn't in control of this new power; although he had no intention of killing the Khund, it's questionable (in hindsight) if he should be an active member until he fully understands his power set. He's admitted previously that he doesn't understand or know all he can do. While I groan a bit at yet another new power, the situation presents very interesting practical and ethical questions (which I don't believe the Legion really address in future issues). Legionnaires are fretting over potential new members' inexperience and here's a full member who's a wild card.


Good points. One might suppose that the Legionnaires have been stretched so thin with five of their members missing that everyone just took it on faith that Jacques had it under control (even though he would be the first to admit otherwise). Collective denial and groupthink are pernicious in any organization.

Quote
We learn why Val was so rich, but not whether he shared half the spoils of Orando's wealth with Jeckie, or was just accorded a portion of it. His dangerous mission is still unspecified, so that keeps us interested, although it threatens to veer into cliché territory with the wise old teacher joining the quest.


True, but this cliche, to me, is welcome. It reminds me of Brande and Cham back in 301, but Brin and Sensei are very different characters and have no prior relationship, except an indirect one through the deceased Karate Kid. It will be interesting to see their character dynamic.

Quote

The way our world has gone global, I wonder how much ethnic difference will remain in 1000 years but the Legion comic up to this period presented distinctions between Earth's races and societies. It seems a bit quaint now.


That's an interesting point about ethnicity disappearing. I suppose (and hope) there would still be some preservation of ethnicity, culture, and tradition, such as Jacques speaking French. Ethnicity defines who we are to a degree, and diversity should be celebrated. I would hope the 30th century would be as diverse if not more so as the present day.


Check out my new Power Club website!

The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21
thoth lad #953976 07/18/18 07:26 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141
Not much between despair and ecstacy
Offline
Not much between despair and ecstacy
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 24,141
Originally Posted by thoth lad
A Khundian terror team has targeted the candidates, and some see it as a diversion form an invasion. There’s no mention of who created the programme. Nor is the Khundian actions seen as an act of war. It’s as if it’s just the sort of thing the UP has to put up with. It does lack even the flimsiest deniability.


They are Khunds. They deny nothing. Of course, they have no brains, either, but . . . smile

Quote
Blok acts as everyman to get most of this explained. Behind him Dreamy makes a snide remark and Element Lad calls her on it. Perhaps this comes from her last encounter with Thom, when she was thinking about how important the Legion was. Just an issue ago, the two seemed fine, but there is tension there.


Dreamy's behavior is certainly enigmatic. When she so quickly backed down from Rokk and Thom's assertion that a membership drive was needed last issue, I thought maybe she had experienced a vision of Jan returning. But now she seems resentful of having to give up the leadership. In a way, though, it's fascinating to watch the disintegration of her relationship with Thom--just as watching a burning building is fascinating. smile

Quote
With Dawny killing someone in Tales, and Jacques here, it looks as though it’s going to be a busy time for Legion trials – Judge Kallor presiding.


A.K.A. Judge Dread? smile

Quote
The third candidate Mojai Desai is much more confident. His family have been leaders since the time of caste (see also The Dominion) He seems to be in a position of some power already that enables him to bestow wealth and comfort. That makes me think about Leung’s paper again.


It would have been interesting to see these two square off in a debate. Ah, missed opportunities.

Quote
Wildfire does nothing to ingratiate himself to Desai’s family, putting his feet on their table during a meal, and ignoring their conversation. He’s not exactly a good will ambassador for the team. But what do such things mean to Drake? He doesn’t eat, as he’s been trying to tell their serving droid. What family connections does he have now? E only has the Legion and he’s been waiting for a battle with the Khunds. No little part of this is wrapped up in his ego, which took a battering the last time he faced a Khund. There’s a lot to learn about Drake in this scene. The Lightle visual of his suit having absorbed the energy is a favourite.


Wildfire is put to good use here--his obvious lack of interest is meant to deflate the windbag, Desai. And Drake thinks nothing of wrecking the candidate's airborne home--the symbol of the latter's power and wealth--while preserving his life. The Legionnaires are reckless with private property, as we've seen before.

I agree about the visual. Stunning.


Check out my new Power Club website!

The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
Page 3 of 16 1 2 3 4 5 15 16

Link Copied to Clipboard
ShoutChat
Forum Statistics
Forums14
Topics21,023
Posts1,045,565
Legionnaires1,730
Most Online53,886
Jan 7th, 2024
Newest Legionnaires
Anonymous Girl, Mimi, max kord, Duke, CBSutherland2000
1,730 Registered Legionnaires
Today's Birthdays
There are no members with birthdays on this day.
Random Holo-Vids
Who's Who in the LMBP
duck458
duck458
Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 224
Joined: April 2006
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5