A quick word -- So…as the history of the LSH progressed, members kept being introduced, especially in the early years. If you think about it though, the introduction of each new member must have had social consequences for the group as a whole—especially as seen in relation to other events occurring at that time both in terms of Legionnaire-related things (re: Death of Lightning Lad) or social things (re: Jo and Tinya start going out). Having historical hindsight is also beneficial, as we know later how things turned out and can make some connections that might not be self-evident early on. Of course, what the writer intended when he wrote something could by and large be entirely inconsequential. Who cares if they meant for Luornu and Tinya to be good friends and maybe Vi feel a little left out? It sure might seem like that with 40 years of retrospect and character development!
Superboy
I was wondering if it was even necessary to do a Superboy one of these, since it almost goes without saying at how much he influenced every single aspect of Legion life, most definitely including the social aspects. But I’ll get into it anyway, or at least a quick overview. I do think he influenced every Legionnaire he served with though, but I guess we’ll get to those relationships when we get to those threads where those Legionnaires joined (I’m thinking the Tinya/Jo relationship in relation to Luornu’s crush on Superboy, etc.).
I think Superboy’s joining the team was a culmination of the earliest days of the Legion, and nothing could have pleased the founders and early team members more. I think Superboy got along great with everyone almost right away, and his natural charisma and non-exclusive complimentary attitude of others helped forge this. I think the founders would have gotten along great with them, and I can even see Superboy feeling a bit in awe of them at first, despite them feeling the exact same thing in him.
Luornu’s crush on Clark is something I can see early sparks of and then building into a roaring flame, as she fell more and more in love with the idea of her and him together. Later, this crush would become more burning, once Luornu’s close friend Tinya starting dating Jo, whose powers were similar to Superboy’s, and who I believe would have been good friends with Clark and Mon all along (I see Mon always being Jo’s best male friend, but we’ll get to that in his thread). This goes along with antoher line of thinking I’ve had since we started these, that the Mordru story where Tasmia and Lar start falling for one another as Luornu realizes her crush on Superboy will never amount to anything at the same time incidentally coincides with the shift in Lu and Tinya’s friendship to the Tinya/Tasmia friendship (from a variety of reasons).
I see Superboy always being one of Brainy’s best friends. In fact, I see Brainy as one of those that Clark was closest too in the Legion, and I’ve always enjoyed this friendship. Of course, Kara and Clark’s friendship is obvious, even though the time dramatics of it are slightly strange.
All in all though, I see Clark as friends with everyone: Tinya, Gim, Cham, Lyle and all the rest—and it would stay that way throughout his membership. Even Wildfire, who didn’t join until much farther along always seemed to have a unique relationship with Superboy.
The Greatest Hero of them all indeed!
Thoughts? Posted by He Who Wanders on :
I've always thought that Superboy joining the Legion would be like George Washington time-traveling to join the present-day U.S. Army, or Elvis Presley joining a modern rock 'n' roll band. The Legionnaires were in awe of Superboy, period.
How much of that awe translated into real friendship is left to our imaginations. As you indicated, Cobie, Superboy was polite and friendly with everyone. But real friendship means allowing for the other person's weaknesses, and, occasionally, getting on each others' nerves. One of the few times this happened, where red kryptonite or some ruse wasn't involved, was in ADVENTURE # 341, when Superboy scolded Matter-Eater Lad after the latter scolded Brainy for inventing Computo. But M.E. Lad demurred immediately. (I wonder what would happen if President Washington scolded a certain other George W. -- but I digress.)
Still, I have no problem with your interpretations. They make a lot of sense, particularly your speculation of a Superboy-Brainy friendship (which puts ADV. # 341 in a slightly different light). But I do think that Superboy's closest Legion friend was Mon-El, who, after all, was his "big brother," in more ways that one.
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
I always wanted to see more of the Ultra Boy/Superboy friendship. They sped through space together so often, you'd think they'd be 'fast' (sorry) friends.
Jo's one of the Legionnaires that made repeat visits to Smallville, dating from his first appearance. Yet, I don't really have a feeling for what their relationship might've been like.
I'd like to have seen a storyline featuring only Legionnaires that debuted in Superboy stories before they were Legionnaires. Mon-el, UB, Star Boy-- anybody else? Supergirl, of course.
I always thought Supes should've been really proud of Star Boy-- as Thom 'soldiered on' with his 'mere' gravity powers after losing abilities almost identical to Kal-el's own. That might be a motivation behind Superboy's impassioned defense of SB when he was kicked off the team (one of my favorite Superboy/LSH moments). At the same time, Kal-el'd never think of Thom's grav powers as 'mere', though. At least not deep down. The fact that he respected the 'weaker' Legionnaires, while simultaneously wanting to protect them is a big part of his character.
I feel Superboy always had a *huge* respect for Saturn Girl. I think she was probably his closest friend among the Legion gals.
Another should-have-been relationship that never quite appeared centered around the parallel of Krypton and Trom. Last of sons of planets-- I can imagine Superboy and Element Lad commiserating on the anniversary of one or the other planets' destruction... no dialogue needed.
Cham's status as 'alien' among the humans might've struck a chord with Kal-el-- especially later in his career.
Another thing I wish we'd seen more of was how Superboy took inspiration from the Legionnaires in his later life-- I always took that to be a sort of unspoken background to the formation of the Justice League, or at least to SuperMAN's participation in it.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
HWW- I definitely agree that Mon was Superboy’s best friend in the Legion, his ‘big brother’. Mon’s very existence was just so cool in that it gave Clark that outlet as a teenager, in having something similar to a family member from Krypton (or Daxam, as fate would have it).
Todd- I wish we saw more b/t Jo and Clark too. I can almost see them as two ‘popular’ kids for different reasons that had a very strong mutual respect and like for each other. Jo’s budding friendship with Mon (which I see as something always there, given both of their pseudo-loner natures) would have maybe helped push more of a friendship b/t the two.
I really like your thoughts on Superboy being proud of Thom after losing his mightier powers (and partly why he was so passionate about his defense). Like Lash said in an earlier thread, it always made me smile when I thought about how the superman-ish powered Legionnaires defended Thom by saying the lesser powered Legionnaires have more at risk by not being invulnerable. I wonder if Superboy’s evident ‘being proud of Thom’ was something that could have spread to Mon and Jo? reiterate of course that this is all speculation, which is why I find it so fun
Agree totally on Imra/Clark. Massive respect and most likely his closet friend of the girls (adding more to the mystique of ‘Iron Butt Imra the Ice Queen’, by being friends with Superboy, who seemed so distant and awe-inspiring, and Brainy, the ultimate loner?).
Your thoughts on Trom also make me consider the ‘orphan’ story where all the Legionnaires with no parents work together. I can see that as much more of a bonding experience than the issue let on, especially afterwards in the scenes we didn’t see. To know that someone like Superboy shared the same hurt might make him more human and approachable to them.
Love your thoughts on Superman and the JLA, which I never really considered before. Now I will always look at it that way Posted by Tamper Lad on :
When reading the Superboy stuff, I'm really struck by how different the silver age Ka-El is from the Byrne version. Though they kinda mitigated it in the 70s and 80s that never changed.
Superboy was never really human was he? As much as he respected the Kents and was friends with Pete, Lana and the rest, he could never truly be himself. I think Peter David really nailed it when pre-crisis Superman told the angel Supergirl that he was lonely in Many Happy Returns.
So the Legion was a place where he could be and have friends as himself. Sort of like science camp for nerds. Because of this he was much more approachable to the legionnaires than they might have believed because of his legendary status. Ka El would have had something in common with each of the legionnaires.
His respect for Saturn Girl and B5 must have been enhanced because they were the two that managed to cure Lar, something he tried in vain to do his entire life. The guilt of what he did to Lar must have eaten away at Superboy/man which would have been his frame of reference to his relationship with Mon-El as Superboy.
Ka-El was universally loved by the team and they no doubt greatly influenced his development into an adult. I wonder if his involvement with the Legion was just as important in lending them credibility with the authorities early on.
Posted by jimgallagher on :
One relationship that I'd like to see explored is the one between Supergirl and Superboy. If Supergirl really was a member first, how did Superboy react when first seeing her? How did the Legion introduce them? How did Supergirl react to Superboy's induction? Was she jealous? His joining meant she was no longer the most powerful team member. She may have thought of the Legion as her special place, away from Superman's protective and ever watchful eye. IIRC, Supergirl's presence had not been revealed to the 20th century world when she joined the LSH. Being part of a galactically famous group would have been exhilirating to a young girl living her life in secret. She would've known from Superman that Superboy would end up joining sooner or later, but would she welcome it or dread it? Or a little of both? How would her place with her super girlfriends change with them fawning over her more famous cousin?
The relationship between Superboy and Mon-El also intrigues me. Superman felt guilty his entire life that it was he who imprisoned Mon-El in the Phantom Zone, after he had poisoned him with lead, and struggled for years to find a cure. Yet Mon-El came back to visit him in Smallville more than once when he was Superboy. The 20th century Mon-El would still be in the Phantom Zone watching himself spend time with Superboy. Did the Mon from the 30th century ever think about his stranded self? Did Superboy think about him? Did he forget Mon's visits after he left because of Supergirl's post hypnotic suggestion? What about the other people who met Mon-El? Pete, Lana, the Kents, etc.? Did the Kents get hypnotized too? Or did they have to keep secrets from Superboy about Mon-El's fate and visits?
Posted by Korbal on :
Suggest a re-read of SUPERBOY #204 ("Who was Anti-Lad?") which is set during this period of time. In it the Legion does seem disappointed, but hardly heart-broken that Superboy does not become a Legionnaire.
Posted by SouthtownKid on :
Aside from the huge impact of Superboy being introduced into the Legion, it may actually pale compared to the enormous 20-year impact of Byrne et. all's un-introducing him to the Legion (or it may not...I'll have to think about it more).
Certainly, the rest of the pre-boot stuff spent a LOT of time trying to fill the Superboy-sized vaccuum left by his absence. It seems like they constantly had to stuggle to stay ahead of the domino effect caused by his not having been real (and eventually, not even being fake, to simply not being), altering previous stories, drastically alrering characters such as Mon-El, etc....
When Superboy became Pocket Universe fake Superboy, it still kind of worked...but outside editors just kept taking it further.
As far as social consequences of his induction into the Legion, I agree with others that there was definite hero worship involved. But I think they got over it and began thinking of him as an equal fairly quickly, because there was little hesitation to kick him and Supergirl back out of the Legion in that Adventure-era story where Kryptonite dust rings 30th century Earth. And I seem to remember them kicking Supergirl out at least once before that (due to red K aging her older than the official Legion cut off age...? Been a while...).
edit:
quote:Originally posted by Korbal: Suggest a re-read of SUPERBOY #204 ("Who was Anti-Lad?") which is set during this period of time. In it the Legion does seem disappointed, but hardly heart-broken that Superboy does not become a Legionnaire.
Haha, I just reread that story at your recommendation (thanks, Archives!), and Anti-Lad's dad sums it up perfectly:
"We must do something, son! We cannot leave things as they are... with history never recognizing Superboy as a Legionnaire! He's destined to play such a vital role with them that the entire course of history will be thrown out of control without him!"
[ July 28, 2005, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: SouthtownKid ]
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
quote:Originally posted by jimgallagher: One relationship that I'd like to see explored is the one between Supergirl and Superboy. [...] How would her place with her super girlfriends change with them fawning over her more famous cousin?
Very interesting questions, Jim. Perhaps this is why the Legion saw so little of Supergirl.
quote:The relationship between Superboy and Mon-El also intrigues me. [...]
Ah, this is a conundrum! One can only hope that seeing himself from the future gave Mon hope as he watched from the Phantom Zone.
Kal must have engaged in some selective amnesia. Otherwise, why bother searching for a cure for Mon, when he knew he'd ultimately fail?
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
quote:Originally posted by SouthtownKid: And I seem to remember them kicking Supergirl out at least once before that (due to red K aging her older than the official Legion cut off age...? Been a while...).
Just to clarify: Supergirl wasn't kicked out. She was denied membership on her first application following the red K incident(ACTION # 267). She made the team on her second tryout (ACTION # 276).
You're right about the Legion not spending much time processing Superboy and Supergirl out in ADVENTURE # 350. They were all business in those days. But the team did give them a solemn farewell ceremony, complete with souvenirs they couldn't keep (whassat?).
[ July 28, 2005, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: He Who Wanders ]
Posted by SouthtownKid on :
quote:Originally posted by He Who Wanders: Just to clarify: Supergirl wasn't kicked out. She was denied membership on her first application following the red K incident(ACTION # 267). She made the team on her second tryout (ACTION # 276).
You're right about the Legion not spending much time processing Superboy and Supergirl out in ADVENTURE # 350. They were all business in those days. But the team did give them a solemn farewell ceremony, complete with souvenirs they couldn't keep (whassat?).
I must have been combining in my memory with when Sun Boy's powers went on the fritz. "No powers? Don't let the door bump you on the way out!" They even sent Bouncing Boy to Sun Boy's house to repo his mission monitor.
When I first read the reprints of those Adventure stories as a kid, I felt like more than worrying about whatever foes they were facing that month, Legionnaires had to live in fear of their fellow members pouncing on any little mistake, and booting them out of the club.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Yeah, back in the early days Legionnaires seemed to spend more time bickering, quitting, and booting one another out than they spent fighting super-villains.
I'm sure glad that's changed... Posted by SouthtownKid on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: Yeah, back in the early days Legionnaires seemed to spend more time bickering, quitting, and booting one another out than they spent fighting super-villains.
...and don't forget stranding them to die out in the middle of outer space in a rocket lifeboat with no food or water, or enough fuel to get to a habitable planet. Wacky Legionnaires...
But actually, those early Adventure stories, especially the John Forte drawn ones, are among my all time favorites, ranking right up there with Levitz's second/Giffen's first run.
(My apologies to Cobalt Kid for dragging the thread off-topic. Sorry...)
Posted by ferroboy on :
quote:Originally posted by He Who Wanders: Still, I have no problem with your interpretations. They make a lot of sense, particularly your speculation of a Superboy-Brainy friendship (which puts ADV. # 341 in a slightly different light). But I do think that Superboy's closest Legion friend was Mon-El, who, after all, was his "big brother," in more ways that one.
I agree about Mon-El and Superboy being real friends rather than just about anyone else. Still, the Legion conspiracy certainy shows that a few other Legionnaires felt they were very close to Superboy.
I think that the other time traveling Legionnaire - Supergirl - was much better with interacting with her teammates on a social level. She made friends and flirted with at least one other member. Maybe she would be a better fit for the Legion (if any 21st C member of the Superman Family had to join) than Superboy. Even Kon-El was largely annoying to the other Legionnaires and I doubt things would be any different with the Threeboot team.
[ July 29, 2005, 03:59 AM: Message edited by: ferroboy ]
Posted by jimgallagher on :
quote:Originally posted by He Who Wanders: Ah, this is a conundrum! One can only hope that seeing himself from the future gave Mon hope as he watched from the Phantom Zone.
Kal must have engaged in some selective amnesia. Otherwise, why bother searching for a cure for Mon, when he knew he'd ultimately fail?
Why didn't the Legion just go back in time to release Mon-El from the Zone? They could have saved him from 1,000 years of misery with one little trip in the time bubble. I know all that crap about not changing history, but they changed history every time they went into the past.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
quote:Originally posted by SouthtownKid: (My apologies to Cobalt Kid for dragging the thread off-topic. Sorry...)
None neccessary! I always enjoy an interesting conversation!
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
quote:Originally posted by jimgallagher: I know all that crap about not changing history, but they changed history every time they went into the past.
I've been trying to think of examples where the Legion changed the past, and how much they affected it. Going by memory, here's what I came up with.
1. (Most obviously) The membership of Superboy and Supergirl.
Aside from the fact that the super-cousins knew of the existence of the Legion, the course of their lives was not really changed by contact with the team. Sure, the Legion was taking a big risk that Superboy and Supergirl would be adversely affected or even killed on Legion missions, but, fortunately, that didn't happen, or the Legion was able to cover its tracks by inducing amnesia.
2. The reserve and honorary memberships of Jimmy Olsen, Lana Lang, and Pete Ross.
Same as above; their future lives were not changed by Legion contact. They may not even have been allowed to retain their memories of the future, since (so far as I know) none of them ever mentioned the Legion after their adventures with the team ceased.
3. Mordru's invasion of Smallville (ADV. # 369-70).
A possible case where too many others would have learned about the Legion, unless the White Witch cast a spell to cause them to forget.
This does alter the past in two ways: If Lightning Lad didn't act, Superboy would have died (which would invalidate history, anyway). Also, Lex Luthor learned of the Legion's existence and later fought them on two separate occasions (ADV. # 300, 325). But Lex made suprisingly little use of his knowledge of the future. Perhaps the Legion knew this in advance and were confident that nothing major would come of his knowing.
5. Chameleon Boy helped Superboy protect his secret identity from Lana Lang (SUPERBOY # 93).
Another probable alteration of the past: If Cham didn't act, then Lana would know Clark's secret. The big question, however, is so what? Others have known Superboy's secret identity over the years (including Pete Ross), so Lana's knowledge would probably have had a negligible effect on history. (It's unlikely that she would have acted on the information in some negative way; she was a snoop, not a villain.)
There are other examples, I know, of the Legion affecting the present, but these are the ones that jump out at me. From these examples, I conjecture that affecting the past happens in degrees, and that not every contact with the past is signficant or produces significant ripples in the timestream.
On the other hand, Mon-El being released from the Phantom Zone in the 20th century may have caused a significant alteration. If, for example, he had become a hero (or resumed his career, per L.E.G.I.O.N.), or even fathered children, then history might have been drastically different.
[ July 30, 2005, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: He Who Wanders ]
Posted by jimgallagher on :
But the Legion saved Superboy/man's life several times by going into the past. Superman's death and the elimination of his descendants would've been at least as big of a change to the timestream as Mon-El's reinsertion into it. By saving him, the Legion did alter history significantly.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
I'm going to start the next one of these, but I like the line of thinking going on right now in this one.
Something I never considered before:
If the older, aged LOSV fought Superboy and the Legion (in a few stories), as well as Superman (with Lex and Brainiac), I wonder if they would have ever slipped in battle with the Legion to let them know they fought their older selves? That’s one hell of a conundrum in itself, and could have been possibly disastrous. I think the timeline for the LOSV (from their perspective) is very interesting, and I wonder how that story would fit in.
Posted by Korbal on :
The darker aspects of Superboy's relations with the Legionnaires was well depicted by an early Levitz story in which Kal-El's frustration with constantly being manipulated by his Legion comrades (albeit for his own peace of mind) is displayed in S/LSH #235. From the start, the Legion seemed to play subtle mind games with Superboy.
Posted by Thriftshop Debutante on :
Character development? Nah, see how the holos develop as Ma & Pa Kent's pride & joy works it in the latest PINUP MODEL competition.
Posted by Director Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by jimgallagher: Why didn't the Legion just go back in time to release Mon-El from the Zone? They could have saved him from 1,000 years of misery with one little trip in the time bubble. I know all that crap about not changing history, but they changed history every time they went into the past.
This just occurred to me too. Funny that I never thought of it in 25 years of Legion fandom!
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Hm...perhaps I should get back to doing these. I think this might have been the last one I did...
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
I just realized that I never responded to Jim's point about the Legion saving Kal's life numerous times, and how doing so changed history anyway.
Actually, I did address this point in my previous post, regarding Lightning Lad's rescue of Superboy from a kryptonite trap in SUP # 86. If Superboy died in that story, then history as the Legion knew it would cease to exist (e.g., Superboy would not grow up to become Superman and save the world countless times). So, somehow, the Legion must have known that they were destined to play a role in his rescue on that occasion (but not on numerous other occasions, where Superboy was saved by himself or someone else).
Exactly how they knew this is unknown -- but it was probably the same manner in which Anti-Lad's father knew that "something" had tampered with history as he knew it, causing Superboy to be rejected by the Legion. Perhaps the Legion was monitoring history before we saw them do this in the story in SUP # 86 and saw Superboy die, which would have prompted them to go back in time earlier and save him.
All of which has nothing to do with the social aspects of Superboy and the Legion!
Posted by Blue Battler on :
You know, you can look at time travel one of two ways: you can either go back in time and kill your grandfather and alter the time stream or you can be unable to change history at all.
The Pre-Crisis Superman tended to operate under the latter restrictions: Superman was never able to save Linocln or prevent the Titanic from sinking or the great San Francisco Earthquake. When he tried, something would prevent it-- Luthor would show up with a handy piece of Kryptonite or something. (In fact, there was a story in the Superboy comic of the 80s where Superboy exiled himself to the past because he knew he would not be able to change history and felt he wasn't capable of using his powers properly.)
From that standpoint, I can actually see taking Superboy along on a mission as a sort of insurance for the Legion-- no matter how dire things seemed, you knew Superboy would survive-- so maybe you would too!
As for Superboy in the Legion ...
I really think the Legion served as a training ground for Superboy. With the Legion, he learned how to handle the kind of galactic threats that he would handle solo as Superman. Just having access to Legion combat training should have made a difference ...
On another level, it kind of hit me that the Legion was Superboy's internet.
The Pre-Crisis Clark Kent didn't have many friends at all. (Pete Ross and maybe Lana Lang.) The most powerful boy in the universe spent most of his time as a glasses wearing weakling who couldn't get a date to save his life. He wasn't chosen for teams, invited to parties ... he was pretty much Charlie Brown.
As Superboy, he had worldwide fame and adoration ... but he had no one he could hang out with. He had no peers.
With the Legion, the lonely nerd became the BMOC. The super human had people who knew what it was like to fly through space and feel vacuum on your skin. He had friends and girls who liked him. He didn't have to be the constant role model.
The one thing that I really regret is that the Legion never introduced the young Superman as a member. Why couldn't we have seen the college age Superman with the 20-something Legionnaires? How did he deal with the death of his parents?
A perfect opportunity wasted. Posted by Ollie on :
quote:originally posted by Blue Battler: The one thing that I really regret is that the Legion never introduced the young Superman as a member. Why couldn't we have seen the college age Superman with the 20-something Legionnaires? How did he deal with the death of his parents?
Hmm . . . this would have been an awesome 'last' Superboy story as his focus shifts to his adult responsibilities in his own time.
Though, since Supes and Bats were discussing flight rings in JLA, that may be a story that could still be told -- in some fashion.
[ December 04, 2006, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: Ollie ]
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
quote:Originally posted by Blue Battler: With the Legion, the lonely nerd became the BMOC. [...]
Interesting interpretation, Blue Battler. I can certainly see how Superman became the "leader" of all the super-heroes, not only the JLA, as a result of his Legion training ground.
Posted by Blue Battler on :
When you think about it, the PreCrisis Kal-El must have been a very lonely young man. He was the very first super hero of his world, and no one else on Earth could do anything like he could. Sure he had worldwide fame and adoration, but he had no one else who knew what it was like to fly under their own power or to be able to count the grains of dust on the moon.
And he was probably about as isolated as a boy in Midwestern America could be. He didn't dare play sports because it wouldn't be fair. He had to pretend to be clumsy and timid, so I'm sure that he never got invited to spend time with the other boys his ages.
When Pete Ross was introduced, Clark mentioned to his parents that he had always wanted a friend but he was afraid that it'd give away his secret identity ... Pete Ross proved to be so popular with the readers that he was brought back and proved himself worthy of keeping Superboy's secret. But he was the only real friend Clark had.
The Legion was really the only place where Clark/Kal got to be himself. He was the most powerful boy in the universe-- in his time anyway-- but I don't think he could have become the heroic inspiration he was if he hadn't had the Legion to help him become the man he was meant to be...
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :