quote:Originally posted by LardLad: Kent, that's a fairly small sampling of JSA reading to make that judgement, I think, but I can respect that. I'm guessing that maybe part of your problem with JSA is it's NOT the classic lineup. Most original JSAers are dead. Do you think that played into it at all for you?
Less the lineup and more the feel and characterization. I expect JSA to be better than the average team-book if I'm going to spend money on it.
quote:Originally posted by Reboot:
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: (sort of like the Black Canary mother/daughter works better if one ignores the original JLA story that intro'd it).
Well, that was completely zapped post-Crisis, wasn't it? (in favour of the younger BC having been a separate character all along)
My point exactly - it worked better just making it "all along" without the rediculous explanation.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by stephbarton: You know, about the age thing, I think it's time for a "middle" generation to be retconned into the timeline.
I mean, only my grandfather on my mom's side (since passed) served in WWII, the rest of my grandparents were all under 18 by the time the war ended. We are getting to the point where the fourth generation from then will be adults.
I certainly don't want WWII removed from the JSA's story, but I think instead of Allan Scott being the dad of Jade and Obsidian he should be the grandfather (well, Jade is dead but Obie isn't that old, not nearly as old as Superman and them) so he is from a "younger" generation.
But if you quietly slipped that extra generation in there I don't think it will be that big of a deal, just don't make any of this new "middle" generation (for lack of a better term) a villain or a secret uber powerful hero. They need to be slipped in quietly than mostly ignored except for the sweet cameo here and there because the gap is getting a bit much for suspension of belief.
Agreed... technically, by the time that could be enacted, they should be great-grandparents.
JSA is the WW2 'Greatest Geenration." Their kids should generally be Baby Boomers, mostly born in the 50s, but a few on either side. The grandkids should be born from the early 1970s all the way though the 1990s, but mostly around the mid-1980s. A fourth generation should be coming of age nowadays, with a few already well into their 20s or so.
Some 'slipage' is acceptable, of course... espeically if you let a few of the old guard remain magically younger.
I'd hate to see a generation just automatically inserted; I cannot imagine DC handling that well at all. I'd rather see it tried out in an Esleworlds/parallele Earth situation where all DC characters are fit into their proper eras (a Silver Age JLA and Doom Patrol, too), and work out the kinks before imposing it on the 'main' DCU... sort of like how Robinson's "Golden Age" was handled.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: I thought about this long and hard over the Summer...
Golden Age / WWII era – Justice Society, 7 Soldiers, Freedom Fighters, etc. – become All-Star Squadron in WWII, all the various aspects
Post WWII 1940’s – final JLA adventures; Young All-Stars, various other stories of Golden Age (re: Black Canary introduced post-WWII)
1950 – JSA disbanded, etc.
Early 1950’s – Blackhawks in the Korean War; Captain Comet, crazy science-fiction, Phantom Stranger, Congo Bill continues
Late 1950’s / Silver Age – Challengers of the Unknown, the Blackhawks continue to have adventures, Congo Bill becomes Congorilla, the JSA resurfaces; Plastic Man still having adventures, King Faraday in the Cold War
Thus, in the early 1960’s, the JSA comes out of retirement, and can “Sub-in” for the JLA in the late 50’s/early 60’s. Power Girl joins, they have children, etc.
...
12 years ago – Superman, Batman, Green Arrow, Aquaman adventures underwater/unknown to the world
...
You could have Hawkman and Hawkwoman/girl in their various incarnations throughout time.
...
Some good ideas, but I hate to see characters subbing for others in past eras just to 'fit.' The WW2 Wonder Woman should be *a* Diana (even if not the curent Diana), not her mother. There should be a WW2 Superman, even if no one but the JSA is allowed to remember him. There should be a Silver Age JLA. The classic Hal/Ollie stories belong in the early 70s, not in the mid-late 90s.
I'd rather see a vaguely "Groundhog Day" scenario where just a few of the heroes realize they and even their supporting casts are not aging, even though decades have been going by. They may craft theories and guesses, but never really know for sure (too much is over-explained in comics already).
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
My dream scenario for resetting the DC Universe goes something like this:
DC announces that is will cancel all titles (except Action and Detective) in six months. The writers all have a chance to finish up ongoing storylines. Then, one year after the cancellations, the DC Universe will relaunch with all new, starting from scratch, versions of their main franchises - with some new titles and characters added.
In the interim year, DC will publish several ongoing series and mini-series that take place on an alternate Earth maybe we could call it Earth DC. Earth DC is a real time Earth. It starts with the Justice Society forming in the early 1940s with the cast as originally presented in All Star Comics. These characters age as normal. This JSA appears in all new adventures, set in the 40s, in a new All Star Comics. Superman and Batman appear, for the interim year, in Action and Detective adventures set during the World War II era. The Dick Grayson version of Robin is a key character in terms of demarcation of the passing of time. I would introduce him as a ten year old in 1944. Whenever you wonder how old somebody is, your refer back to that reference as an anchor point.
For the interim year, DC will publish a team super-hero series set in each decade up through the present. These series would have some basis in how stories of that era were originally presented, but may have to substitute legacy characters for the Golden Age heroes who aged.
The titles and line-ups:
1950s Teen Titans Starting in 1950 with Robin, Supergirl (blue skirt Kara); Sandy, and Star Spangled Kid. These kids are kind of mentored by the still active JSA. A very young Dinah Lance sometimes accompanies her mother on mentoring duties and serves as a young sidekick and foil to the older Teen Titans.
Super-Heroes are outlawed in the mid 1950s and most go into seclusion or retirement. Both the JSA and Teen Titans disband. Superman marries Lois and Batman marries Selina during the late 50s seclusion era.
1960s Justice League of America Nightwing (Dick) and Superwoman (Kara) fill the roles of Batman and Superman in this resurgence of super-heroes. Wonder Woman is Diana from the original JSA. As an Amazon, she does not age. Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern (Hal), Flash (Barry), and Aquaman are founders. The team stays together for about 15 years with the new members being added at approximately the rate and times they were in the original series. Green Arrow, Atom, Red Tornado, Elongated Man, Zatana, etc. The Thanagarian Hawks join. The JLA Black Canary is the daughter of the JSA version. The one addition would be Batgirl (Barbara Gordon) who marries Nightwing.
1970s Justice League International As the old League folds, Zatanna forms a new team that includes John Stewart, Jade, Huntress (Helena Wayne), Black Lightning, Red Star and some of the Global Guardian characters.
1980s Titans They start out as teens featuring Flamebird (Jim Grayson, son of Nightwing and Batgirl), Wonder Girl (Donna Troy), Aqualad, Kid Flash (Wally), and Speedy. They are eventually joined by Power Girl (daughter of Superwoman), Lilith, Mal and Karen, Cyborg, Starfire, and Raven.
1990s Justice, Inc A new team that carries over with a few of the Titan members as adults. Power Girl is still around. Aqualad is now Tempest, Speedy is Arsenal. The anchor of the team is Superman II, the son of Clark and Lois. Vixen joins. Green Lantern is now Kyle. They mentor the Young Justice team Tim, Cassie, Bart, and Conner. (Note: Superman II is one of the sons of Lois and Clark his older brother disappeared mysteriously in the 1960s).
2000s Justice Society International A legacy team set in modern times. Some of the Young Justice kids grew up. There is new Batman from Argentina. Nightshade (the daughter of Flamebird and Starefire) is a member; One of the powerhouse characters is Indigo, the son of Power Girl and Tempest. A time displaced Nura Nal and Thom Kallor are part of the team. They reveal that the lost son of Superman is in the 31st century serving with the Legion.
The other ongoing series for the interim year would be a title called Passages. It would print stories about things like the death of Batman and Superman or the break up of the Justice Society and the Justice League. There would be one shots and some three issues mini series featuring solo adventures of the Earth DC characters set in the appropriate decade.
After the relaunch of the new DC Universe, the top two selling of the Earth DC series would be continued. Earth DC would still be featured in occasional specials for nostalgia buffs as the new DC Universe takes hold.
-------------------- No regrets, Coyote.
From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: [QUOTE]
I'd rather see a vaguely "Groundhog Day" scenario where just a few of the heroes realize they and even their supporting casts are not aging, even though decades have been going by. They may craft theories and guesses, but never really know for sure (too much is over-explained in comics already).
Have to say I'm not thrilled with this idea, or a general reboot (sorry, but I think the legion showed that reboots are bad).
Mainly I think that it becomes too ridiculous. It reminds me of when they tried to re-into Captain Marvel in the 70's. I appreciate them wanting to keep the WWII stories intact, but having a portion of the town stuck is Suspendium and all that was just, bad, in my opinion. I just don't like that story.
You could explain why the heroes don't age (or age slowly as has already been done) but doing that with their wives and then including their supporting cast is just too much.
I don't know what the solution is, I like the history and generational aspect of the DCU and I do agree that some stories really only work in certain time periods. But for those you just, don't think about it?
I will say this, I think that there are not enough generations between the original JSA'ers and the younguns (esp the surviving Infinators) but there are too many generations after the Silver Agers (or there are about to be, early reports make it look like Damian will be Robin, so that's four Robins (if you don't count Stephanie) for Batman so far).
Anyways, I really don't think there is a good solution for this problem, I think the most important aspect however is for the characters and stories to continue to move forward. I really think the things that kill a book most is when the writers spend too much time explaining what is going on or what has changed rather than moving the stories forward. (I feel that this is really what killed the Legion, not the removal of Superboy, but the constant retconning to try and explain how things had changed).
-------------------- Long Live the Legion!
Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
Steph, I would argue that the removal of Superboy LEAD to the constant ret-conning, but I think our discussion of the JSA has lead to a larger issue in comics: how should aging and the passage of time be addressed in serialized comics?
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by LardLad: Steph, I would argue that the removal of Superboy LEAD to the constant ret-conning, but I think our discussion of the JSA has lead to a larger issue in comics: how should aging and the passage of time be addressed in serialized comics?
True, I don't think it was absence of Superboy that killed the Legion, but rather the lengths they went to explain/change things due to that absence. But at a point we split hairs.
As for aging in comics, that's a toughie.
Really I think the sliding timeline works best. For stories that really only work in a certain time...well honestly I can't think of that many that rule applies to. The few I can think of either a) aren't refernced that much so the time isn't a big throw off or b) you just suspend disbelief and live with it.
Honestly, as much as writers like to think comicbook reflect the real world, they really don't that often.
Now I think the big problem we get with timelines in the DCU (and since I read mostly DC that's who I'll use) is JSA and sidekicks growing up or characters growing up
with JSA the big problem is not that they are tied to WWII (and it would be hard to seperate them from that age, especially since they are seen as "Golden Agers" and the Golden Age is linked with WWII).
The problem with sidekicks growing up is that it ages the heroes. The biggest problem is that DC keeps adding more sidekicks (Damian as the "new" Robin would be the biggest example if that rumors becomes true). Heck, Damian's existance is a problem because he is pretty old, and since Batman was, well Batman, when he was supposed to be born you just aged Bruce (unlike Ollie who had his kid before his GA career, thus not affecting the "sliding timeline").
Then you have characters like Dick and Wally, both have become characters in their own right, but both have been aged considerably and when you begin to think about Bruce has now become a lot older.
However, I think a lot can be done with suspension of disbelief, you just don't think about how old someone has to be, the trick is to not "lock" ages in (so avoid big age benchmarks) but also be cognizant of the limits of your fictional realm when doing things (like introducing Damian).
I'm for aging in comics, but I think you need to be aware of your limits. When Dick grew up as Nightwing (because the Bat books didn't want him) he basically forced the "aging" of all his peers. When Wally became the Flash and thus a full adult (even though he didn't act like it at first) this really forced another "aging" of that generation.
The trick now for DC would be to keep the middle generation (Dick, Wally) as the early to mid twenties yet still viable characters (get much older and bam, you have a problem).
Then they intro Jason, he dies, but then comes Tim and following him (in the 90s) you get the "next wave" of teen heroes, none sidekicks but all his peers. Thus if DC were smart they would keep Tim perpetually a teen, because once they age him they age an entire generation and then they have two post teenager generations and thus Dick and all them have to be aged yet again.
I think you need to keep things in bands, the Silver Agers are always peers of Batman/Superman in age (and experience). The young adults are the former Teen Titans (Dick, Wally, etc) and the teens are Tim and his gen. Try to add another band and your "sliding timeline" doesn't work.
So then you treat each character according to the band they are in. No character in the "teenager band" can graduate high school (or at least attend college, because now you're either in the next age band or just too darn close)
If anyone in the young adult band has kids (which chould be avoided except in biggest circumstances because writers can't write babies forever and kids age characters) those kids need to be kept under a certain age.
Now main characters can age, but any aging effects to these characters need to be thought out a lot before implemented, because if you age one Silver Ager you age the others, remember, Superman and Batman are there at the begining, and even though Hal and Ollie should be older than those two, they appeared heroicly at the same time and it is too hard to remind fans that even though Hal and Ollie are older, that doesn't make Bruce and Clark older. Using bands mean you all kind of age or deage together, regardless of actual starting ages.
As for the JSA, the big problem for me is their kids (which weren't the JSA pretty old when the kids were intro'ed anyways?). That is the problem because you have characters that I really think DC thought would be perpetual background players and never thought that introducing "kids" to spice up the franchise would create such a headache since people would care about Alan Scott and Jay and all in 2009.
You need some flexibility otherwise characters become stale, but at the same time if you are going to have a shared universe you need to be cognizant of the problems you face with aging one character. besides, you can have growth without aging characters too much.
Suspension of disbelief is a big part of comics, so if you say that all of Batman's career has taken place in 10 years I'll buy it unless you show me that Dick has aged 12 years. So work with the leeway fans will give you.
Again, JSA is a problem, but I think that's because DC thought that no one would care about these old guys long enough for it to be a problem.
Oh, and one last thing, don't tie characters who can't age into specific events. I love Captain Marvel, but you CAN NOT tie him in to the "dawning of the Heroic Age" because Billy HAS TO remain as a minor (it's part of the central concept of the character).
And I realized that I haven't really answered the question, but I think there should be growth in characters and sometimes aging accomplishes this (Dick could not be the character he is today if he was still Robin, the teen wonder) but you have to be smart about aging because you want to avoid making the character too old or having to reboot or reset the character.
-------------------- Long Live the Legion!
Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
By this time, you probably know my solution.
Set a fixed timeline. Let everyone age in real time.
Restart the whole thing every ~20 years. Seriously, this shouldn't be a problem. You should expect total audience turnover within that time anyway.
Over very long time spans, I don't see any use in retaining the same continuity at all. And so there's no need for flex-time in comics anymore. In its absence, we can have tighter continuity.
-------------------- Tom Strong, on nostalgia: "I suppose it's a ready substitute for genuine feeling." - Tom Strong #6, Alan Moore
From: Calgary, Alberta | Registered: May 2008
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posted
My solution: have two lines of comics. In one of them, the issue of time and aging is neither addressed nor acknowledged. The characters are evergreen. In the other, characters age in real time, they hand down their legacies to junior characters (sometimes) and when they die they stay dead. Obviously, these two would diverge fairly quickly, but that's okay.
Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
I agree largely with TK. Restart continuity every twenty to twenty-five years for the major characters. Relegate the old continuity to an "alternate earth" or something, where stories can still be told in it. That way you can still have some titles set in the old continuity after the transition.
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Continuity is something writers use to tell ongoing stories. Readers seem to have more and more issues with it as it gets bulkier and bulkier.
Don't reset it, just forget it. If a writer wants to use something from previous history to build a story, go write ahead. If something previously written would contradict a good story, ignore it. Just let writers tell their stories and not worry about contradictions or incongruences.
I'm a fairly new reader compared to most of the folks on this board, and definitly in this topic. But you guys certainly have examples in your collections of incongruent stories. Does it really hamper your enjoyment?
From: Denver, CO | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: My solution: have two lines of comics. In one of them, the issue of time and aging is neither addressed nor acknowledged. The characters are evergreen. In the other, characters age in real time, they hand down their legacies to junior characters (sometimes) and when they die they stay dead. Obviously, these two would diverge fairly quickly, but that's okay.
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: I agree largely with TK. Restart continuity every twenty to twenty-five years for the major characters. Relegate the old continuity to an "alternate earth" or something, where stories can still be told in it. That way you can still have some titles set in the old continuity after the transition.
I think we're all in full agreement, actually. Rather than doing a reboot in the same titles, as Crisis on Infinite Earths was meant to be, it would probably be more viable to launch it like Marvel's Ultimate line, keeping the original universe running at least for a while. But, as I've explained elsewhere, do it like Marvel originally intended the Ultimate universe: as a different fictional universe, not a different part of the same multiverse. The latter would eventually lead to crossovers, and to metafictionality bleeding over into the new universe. As pointed out by Cobalt Kid here: http://www.legionworld.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=001778 a worthwhile "Ultimate" universe has to have different possibilities from the main universe. Non-metafictionality combined with a fixed timeline (note that I don't say real-time - who says all series have to be set in the present?) would give DC that. And to go with it, an all-new set of writers. If DC ever does anything even close to this, I will certainly abandon what remains of my interest in the old universe.
quote:Originally posted by CJ Taylor: I'm a fairly new reader compared to most of the folks on this board, and definitly in this topic. But you guys certainly have examples in your collections of incongruent stories. Does it really hamper your enjoyment?
Even as a younger reader, I have to say: Yes. I can only ever look at comic stories on their own merit - and believe me, most of them aren't that good on their own. I'm drawn to long-running series - long-running coherent series. No comic I've ever read was part of such a series as far as I know. I love comics more for what I wish they could be than for what they are. I want continuity to be something more than "pick and choose", and I want it to be worthy of that status.
-------------------- Tom Strong, on nostalgia: "I suppose it's a ready substitute for genuine feeling." - Tom Strong #6, Alan Moore
From: Calgary, Alberta | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by CJ Taylor: I'm a fairly new reader compared to most of the folks on this board, and definitly in this topic. But you guys certainly have examples in your collections of incongruent stories. Does it really hamper your enjoyment?
Part of the fun of being a fan used to be figuring out inconsistencies. For example, the idea that Supergirl joined the Legion before Superboy originated in a single-panel discrepancy.
I think that a fictional universe should be by and large consistent, but allowing some things to remain inconsistent can be a boon. It allows fans to become actively engaged in coming up with their own explanations. (Anybody on this board ever win a Marvel No-Prize?) Do we really need to know, for example, why some Klingons have head ridges and others don't?
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
HWW:
quote:...Do we really need to know, for example, why some Klingons have head ridges and others don't?...
Make sh#t up !!
Sorry. Couldn't resist.
Actually, I don't need to know if it's just filler, but if it adds anything to the story at hand, then go for it.
While it's a hard pill for fans to swallow at times, when the next creative team comes on board, they have a right to ignore the last team's ridge-theory, or even substitute their own that's completely at odds with that of the last team. If they do this in service of a story that would have suffered without it, great.
Artists seem to get much more leeway on this front than do writers, which isn't really fair when you think about it.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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Hyperpath: Email this page to someone!
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