posted
I'm very happy to see all the mad PAD love in this thread. I can't add much more than a few random thoughts:
- I notice nobody's mentioned PAD's run on Dreadstar. I'm not really surprised, but I really hope that someday it'll gain more recognition, as, in my opinion, PAD actually improved on Jim Starlin's original Dreadstar the same way that Walt Simonson's Thor improved on Lee & Kirby's original Thor.
- PAD did not quit Peter Parker The Spectacular Spider-Man. The Powers That Be forced then-Spidey-editor Jim Owsley (now known as Christopher Priest) to fire PAD because of a sh*tstorm between Marvel's editorial and marketing departments. As PAD was a marketing staffer at the time, he was aware of the situation and doesn't hold it against Priest.
- Young Justice and Supergirl came out while I was reading very few comics and wasn't following the industry or going to comics stores. I've had to severely cut down on back-issue purchases, but I like what I've read so far and hope to complete the runs in the future.
- X-Factor Mk. 2 was my favorite comic book for its first couple years, then I thought it went into a quality spiral, and I dropped it after # 35. The controversial childbirth issue was good enough to get me to Byrne-steal the book every month, but so far it hasn't recaptured enough of the magic for me to start buying it again.
- I can't wait for Fallen Angel Reborn. As with X-Factor, the first two years or so were pure gold, but I feel that the last few issues suffered from having to cram a long-term storyarc into a small amount of space; great ending, though, and I'm confident the relaunch will be back on form.
posted
Thinking about PAD a little more, I've kind of been developing a term for "PAD characters": these are specific characters within a series that PAD writes so well, they memorably stand out in your mind when you think about the series in retrospect. Its kind of hard to put into words what I’m thinking, but what I mean is, PAD usually writes his solo/team titles with an excellent analysis of the main character(s) and the emotional experience they’re having; he also provides excellent tension with the character(s) romantic partner (and in fact, I would say goes ten steps further in these scenarios but that’s another stream of thought); but he *also* provides excellent supporting characters that really shine in the series. Now don’t get me wrong: (1) these characters do not take over the book (re: they do not pull a fonzy)…otherwise we would probably hate these characters in retrospect. And (2) these are not the main character or the romantic partner; these are in addition to those long-standing archetypes.
For example (granted it’s a little harder to find in team books):
(1) Fallen Angel – this one is jam-packed full of them, but IMO Black Mariah has really emerged as a bonafide “PAD character” star. She’s my favorite character of the series, and almost every line of hers is either the funniest line in the issue, or perhaps the most emotionally poignant. And she doesn’t dominate the series at all, she’s purely a supporting character and will always remain that way.
(2) Incredible Hulk – Rick Jones might be the easy one to think of, but I would say that’s not true, since Rick is essentially a Marvel Heroes star anyway. Rather, I think Marlo is the type of character I’m getting at. She sticks out in my mind as the quintessential PAD character during his run: her very presence helped further develop all the characters and stories around her; she was awesomely funny at times; she was filled with tragedy and drama, and her scenes sometimes were whimsical and fun and yet at other times disturbing and poignant.
(3) Supergirl – I think ultimately Buzz developed as the type of character in Supergirl similar to the others. And honestly, I never really cared for Buzz myself, but I can see what PAD was trying to do…he certainly developed more than any other character in the whole run. I know some people (not on LW but on other boards) complained he was too much like Spike from Buffy but PAD has always said that was never intentional. It was only after fans made that comparison that PAD tried to play that up online to get Buffy fans to check out the sales-ailing Supergirl.
(4) Aquaman – Aquaman is chalk-full of these types of characters as well, but Dolphin is of course the one that sticks in my mind, even though the early issues flirted with the idea of a Dolphin/Aquaman romance (so yeah, I’m breaking my own rule ). But up until PAD took hold of her, Dolphin was basically a throw away DC character with one late 60’s Showcase appearance and then a few good bits of dialogue in Crisis on Infinite Earths #12. That’s right—she only appeared in basically two other issues prior (her most memorable thing was her cut-off shorts honestly until PAD took the character). He then used her perfectly: she went from being the reader’s POV person to someone questioning Aquaman’s actions to being his best ally and then when just maybe her presence in the book was getting repetitive, PAD used her to breath some fresh life into Garth much like he did with Orin.
I’m sure there are dozens of examples, including multiple in the various books, and that’s a tribute to how well PAD uses supporting characters. Its always done differently (he is an excellent writer after all and its obvious he doesn’t want to bore himself more than anything), but they are always the ones you least expect and they always change the scope of the series in subtle ways by affecting characters and story montages themselves.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
On the side-topic of PAD's Star Trek books, he had a line of 'New Frontiers' book that I tended to call 'Sex Trek,' because there was a whole lot of booty-callin' going on.
It got particularly confusing when the hermaphroditic engineer got involved, as s/he was canoodling at different points with both the male helmsman and the female doctor.
Unlike classic Star Trek, which had a bunch of normal people and Spock, the New Frontiers crew was full of more unique characters, much like the Next Generation crew (android, klingon, blind dude with super-visor, empath), which gave many of the main cast a special 'hook' of some sort.
The first one had a hamfisted tribute to Gene Roddenberry in it, but the remaining books picked up steam a bit and started fleshing out secondary characters, as well as introducing a few 'bridge' characters from previous series, such as the Vulcan doctor Selar (first seen in Next Generation).
If you're a Trek fan, they are a fun read. I haven't read a whole lot of Star Trek books in the last decade or so, but I think that PAD is the only writer to so far be allowed to write a series of book not set in one of the mainstream series continuities (i.e. you'll find a hundred or more novels set about the Enterprise of Kirk and Spock, or the Enterprise of Picard and Data, or Deep Space Nine or Janeway's Voyager, but not nearly as many books set on 'some other dudes ship,' let alone series of books about author-created characters on their own ship!).
Wow, I just looked them up on Wiki. I'd read the first three or four, but they're up to *seventeen!*
Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
One series he worked on that hasn't really been mentioned is Captain Marvel. I thought that one was pretty much a misfire from the get-go. I gave up on it after about a year into the first series and came back and quickly left again when it was relaunched.
I thought the character of Genis-Vell had huge potential after reading Avengers Forever and was really excited about the new series launch and PAD being attached to it. It started out decent, but it seemed like it was trying to recapture the Hulk vibe a little too much with the style of humor and the presence of Rick and Marlo. What killed everything for me was when PAD dove into Genis going insane and basically turning evil. I'm not saying there's no room for that kind of story, but for it to have been effective, I think it would have been better to establish Genis in a heroic light for a pretty good length of time before exploring him losing it. I felt I'd barely even begun to know this character before he was being torn down.
What was worse was that the arc just went on too long. If you're going to take the book in this direction, you'd better make it absolutely captivating. It wasn't.
I know the book got a lot of acclaim during it's life, but I just don't see it. I think that it hasn't been mentioned along with PAD's career highlights here speaks volumes.
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I was just thinking of "Captain Marvel" in relation to this thread. I also was really psyched about Genis after "Avengers Forever". Maybe Busiek would've been a better choice for the series, but aside from the artist making Cap too bulky and making that star on his chest too big, I enjoyed the series a lot! Yeah, it may have helped for Marlo and Rick to have stepped back a bit, but I thought it was a very entertaining series.
However, I also really disliked the turn the series took after Genis went mad in the second series. That wasn't fun or funny. It's too bad Genis met such a bad end - that horrible outfit in "Thunderbolts" then getting written off like that. He could've been a real heavy-hitter in the Marvel U.
From: New York, NY | Registered: Jul 2003
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There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
quote:Originally posted by DrakeB3004: It's too bad Genis met such a bad end - that horrible outfit in "Thunderbolts" then getting written off like that. He could've been a real heavy-hitter in the Marvel U.
Considering how much I didn't care for the original Captain Marvel, I've always been perplexed by how much I liked Genis and even 'Marvel Boy,' his spin-off characters.
Genis' 'death' is perhaps one of the few comic book deaths that logically sets itself up for a return. Much like Zemo's folding castle, Genis may be separated by vast gulfs of space and time, but he's not necessarily dismembered (as the rooms in the folding castle maintained some sort of permanant connection, even when separated by great distances), just trapped in many spaces at once.
I'd only heard of the character before Avengers Forever, but that story got me interested in him, so his appearance in Thunderbolts was a welcome thing.
Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
I consider Captain Marvel, counting the two series as one, to be the weakest extended run that PAD has ever written. Perhaps because it started during a particularly low time in his personal life (as Cobie mentioned earlier, PAD's first marriage ended during the late 90s) it was tainted from the start. Then again, didn't Young Justice start in '97? In that case, it's a mystery to me why Captain Marvel was so bad.
Which only makes me recommend PAD's Dreadstar run even more strongly. It's an action-packed cosmic extravaganza with the best art of Angel Medina's career, plus a superlative guest-artist job from a very young Steve Epting.
Dreadstar and, to lesser extent, Star Trek (I've only read a few of PAD's Trek comics and none of his Trek prose), are what keep me believing that PAD would write one hell of a Fantastic Four. Can't you just picture PAD re-teaming with Todd Nauck for a long run on FF? Yum.
quote:Originally posted by Stealth: Dreadstar and, to lesser extent, Star Trek (I've only read a few of PAD's Trek comics and none of his Trek prose), are what keep me believing that PAD would write one hell of a Fantastic Four. Can't you just picture PAD re-teaming with Todd Nauck for a long run on FF? Yum.
Damn straight, Stealth! Why the hell has PAD pretty much kept his hands off the FF when he has touched practically every other corner of the Marvel Universe?!?! The more I think of it, the more I wish he'd give the FF a shot. The FF, IMO, have pretty much stagnated ever since John Byrne left the series with two notable exceptions: Walt Simsonson and parts of the Waid/Weiringo run (honorable mention to Alan Davis's too-brief run).
I know PAD would just have to write the best Johnny and Ben ever and would probably have a terrific take on Reed and Sue as well. Hell, Franklin and Val would probably rock, too!
In addition I think PAD would build up the FF's supporting cast which has consisted pretty much exclusively of Alicia Masters for any length of time.
A PAD FF run (with Todd Nauck in tow) would definitely have my interest! I wonder if this hasn't happened before because PAD's completely disinterested or because of Marvel's continued insistence on pairing one of their flagship titles with creators who are either a terrible fit for it or just not top-flight talent?
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Lard Lad: ...Marvel's continued insistence on pairing one of their flagship titles with creators who are either a terrible fit for it or just not top-flight talent
It's bizarre, isn't it? Much as I dislike Mark Millar, I can see the logic of putting a writer with a wild reputation on FF*, but the results could charitably be called timid, as if Millar was overwhelmed by the legacy of Stan & Jack. And now they've given it to Jonathan Hickman, an indie writer chipping his way into the mainstream who had little or no previous familiarity with the FF.
PAD's old enough to have read Stan & Jack's FF as a kid, which I think is crucial to recapturing the SPIRIT of Stan & Jack's trailblazing run, while at the same time, he's too smart and too talented to go the retro route.
*If I were EiC of Marvel and I had decided to go the wild-writer route with FF, I would have hired Joe Kelly instead of Mark Millar. It would be either a trainwreck or the most exciting FF since Stan & Jack, and I think the risk is worth taking. But PAD's still my top choice for FF.
posted
I've got to agree that PAD on FF would be the most exciting thing to happen to PAD or the FF right now (for me at least). It seems a natural fit. PAD's imagination is such that he could provide vastly epic and *new* stories for them, yet keep the dynamic grounded in family. And like Lardy says, hopefully introduce a supporting character or three with some real staying power. Plus, I think he'd know the boring, tired old "Reed and Sue are fighting routine" was played out in the 1970s.
As for Captain Marvel, I thought about adding that to my posts before but kept it out because it really didn't fit with what I was saying. His run there is definitely different from the others, likely because of the aforementioned personal problems he was having at the time.
I don't think it was terrible, but it wasn't his best effort. On the whole, I was super-excited about Captain Marvel following Avengers Forever too; plus Rick & Marlo had been written out of the Hulk for about a good two years by then so it was exciting for the to be included too--I'm also a big fan of the fact that Rick kind of bounces between several titles every few years for like 40 years now. And I think the first half of his run was really great! Lots of action, funny dialogue, a sense of fun and some interesting dynamics. Yet it started to drift a little because of two things: (1) Genis himself never seemed to be able to evolve; he almost felt handicapped in that way. And (2) I hated that Marlo started to have feelings for Moondragon instead of Rick. I can see what PAD was trying to do but I really felt betrayed too, and I had loved Marlo's character up until that point. Rick Jones is a character that will last in Marvel--anyone who says otherwise is kidding himself. Kill him and he'll be brought back. Do something bad to him and it will be undone. History has proven that. But Marlo is not that way; make the readers dislike her and consider her career over...it would only be a matter of time where she would (hopefully) end up in limbo, since the other more likely scenario is her death or worse.
When PAD restrated the series with Genis going mad, the series really took a nosedive for me. But in addition to what we've talked about with what the Hulk, Aquaman and Supergirl were all going through during this period of PAD's life, there's another major contributing factor some people may have forgotten: Bill Jemas & Joe Quesada. During this period, PAD was literally “called out” by the powers that be of his own freaking company. He basically was suckered into competing with them in that contest to see which title would garner the most sales. And the kicker? Jemas basically made his all about sex and Quesada was “so busy” (note sarcasm) that he didn’t even write his and set it in the uber-popular ultimate universe. So what PAD had to do to compete was make Genis completely over the top, as well as make his story fit for a TPB—something all Marvel comics were doing at this time that was hurting almost every title because it was so forced. Those things were not PAD’s fault; his was the only career that would suffer if he lost. BTW, he did win and I felt glad about helping him because I bought like five copies of Captain Marvel #1 (relaunch). But he’s admitted that despite winning that little contest, all it did at the time was make him even more annoyed at the Marvel PTB, so he eventually realized he simply didn’t want to write comics for them anymore at that time (once Jemas left, PAD was back; it was clear Jemas was the asshole there).
So Captain Marvel came at the worst time for PAD to be writing for Marvel, but still, some of it was pretty good. I did like the character a whole hell of a lot, and I hated—HATED—what Fabian did with him in Thunderbolts. It also made me dislike Phyla for some time before DnA finally got me to warm up to her in GotG.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Genis really should have grown into one of Marvel's greatest heroes and taken his father's place, even exceeding him perhaps. To me, Genis was pretty much THE star of what I thought was an awesome miniseries in Avengers Forever. I know it's hard or even unfair to bind future Avengers writers to events that are shown in a story to be the future, but I really wish this one had come to pass.
I know that the right writer could take over Avengers some day and bring back Genis and make Songbird an Avenger as well, but it's very unlikely with all this damage done. And it's all PAD's fault, I'd say. Yeah, Fabian's the one who killed him, but PAD's the one who poisoned Genis's viability as a truly heroic character. PAD's done a lot more good than bad with characters he's touched, but I'd place this one squarely on the bad side.
In a universe somewhere where Bendis never took over and "disassembled" them and PAD never made Genis crazy, there's an Avengers lineup out there that features Marv, Songbird, a Scarlet Witch who never went crazy and a lot of other favorites we've been missing since the team got all gritty and depressing. I know Bendis's run has been undeniably successful, and it does have it's plusses (like elevating Luke Cage and resurrecting Jessica Drew as a viable character). But the New Avengers are not the Avengers at all. For starters, Wolverine has absolutely no business being there!
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
So with Blackest Night starting this week and it's focus on dead characters returning on my mind, I thought I might steer the Roundtable toward the topic of death and its obvious impermanence in comics. It seems lately we've had a rash of "resurrected" heroes in our comics, with Kon-El/Superboy, Bart Allen/Kid Flash, Barry Allen/Flash and Steve Rogers/Captain America all coming immediately to mind over the past year.
Barry, in particular, seems the most surprising and unnecessary given the fact he'd been deceased for over two decades and was very effectively replaced by Wally West in the role.
Kon-El and Bart were less surprising, though Kon's death being the exclamation point to a companywide crossover would be moreso than Bart's.
As for Steve Rogers, shit, everyone knew that wasn't going to last long, just as everyone knows that about Bruce Wayne. However, I'm a little surprised at the timing to bring Steve back. Bucky's turn in the red, white & ble seemed to have a lot more gas left in it, so I think Marvel could easily have waited another year or so before flipping that switch.
The larger issue is that death in superhero comics no longer holds any weight at all. It's getting harder and harder to become emotionally invested in the death of a character when we know the odds are against the event holding up. It seems the investment is now more on wondering how long it will be until the character returns more than anything.
I've read that the only deaths that seem to stick are Unlcle Ben's and Gwen Stacy from Spider-man's supporting cast. At the moment I might cautiously add members of the JSA and Titans to that list...though, really, who knows?
For the most part I'm really burned out by the whole thing. I must admit, though, that there have been a few resurrections that have pleased me: Hal Jordan and Ollie Queen primary among those. But there are those that just make me want to scream and tear up comics to vent my frustration: primarily Jean Grey and Norman Osborne.
What do you think about the impermanent nature of death in comics? Are there deaths that have raised your ire for being reversed? Returns that you applauded? How would you like to see deaths handled in the future?
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Batman? I thought he was shown to be put back in time, not dead? Did I misunderstand that?
Sales > story
Death can hold weight if it's permanent and dealt with but like any theme, it can become trite and it has. In most cases, I've considered the rebirths a correction, not the problem.
How would a world used to Superman, cope if he were gone? Good story. Nice "elseworlds." Conveniently replace him with 4 new supermans, bad story. Sales gimmick.
Gwen Stacy, done well. This board has discussed before that Legion stories do not spend enough time dealing with the results of disaster and Ferro Lad's death was an opportunity mostly missed that Spiderman didn't. Peter Parker was changed by that death. LSH pretty much went on as if it hadn't happened. One death is known only to a hardcore group of fans and another is comic book canon.
Other deaths I would consider done well and had permanent affects were Supergirl and Flash.
From: East Toledo | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I was thinking about this topic throughout the day, and I can't recall the point at which comic book death became meaningless for me - but it's been a while. It's something of a joke now in the medium, with some characters making comments about how they or someone else came back from the dead.
The problem with eternal life, it has been suggested, is that you wind up with a stagnant society. Old people have to die off to let new ideas take hold, only the impermanence of life lets us appreciate it fully, etc. Refusing to let characters die - major characters, that is - means less room for new faces, an often convoluted and eye-rolling explanation to support the resurrection, and a general inability of the DC and Marvel universes to develop naturally.
I think I would rather miss a character who died, and reread old stories, or have them produce new stories about that character set in the past or elseworlds. Ted Kord's death was well done in that respect, because in the issues leading up to his death, I really came to enjoy the character - then he was gone, and I did feel a bit of a tug on the old heartstrings. (Okay, so he came back in Booster Gold, but I haven't been reading that series, so I don't know if he's really back or if it's a time thing.)
posted
For me, the point at which comic book deaths became meaningless was the resurrection of Jean Grey back in 1984.
That was the rudest awakening for me. Prior to that, I thought comics "meant" something and that the stories carried some weight or significance. I also thought that there was an overall story arc, particularly at Marvel - something akin to a fictionalized history that was meant to take us readers somewhere. I was fully invested in this history: It made the characters and their world all the more real. It showed heroes as being truly heroic when they placed their own lives on the line and, infrequently though it may have happened, when they or their loved ones didn't come back from those sacrifices.
But in one fell swoop, Marvel erased all that. There is no growth in comics because these are fictional, commercial characters meant to sell a product. The stories have no intrinsic value other than "buy the next issue." That was the lesson I learned in 1984.
Oh sure, I denied the lesson. I pretended that it didn't have that much impact - the resurrection had to be a misstep - for a few years. But as time went on and more and more examples of genuine character growth were reversed (anyone remember Wanda and Vision's children?), I came to realize that that was in fact the lesson of Marvel: buy the next issue. Who cares about anything else?
DC's evisceration of the Legion's history during TMK sealed the deal for them, as well.
By then, I was reading a fair amount of comics from so-called independent publishers, and, as the '90s wore on, indies became the bulk of my buying habits. I still checked back in with Marvel and DC from time to time, but found little had changed. The nadir for me came during the much ballyhooed Death of Superman in 1992. The public ate it up. I saw it for what it was: a cheap publicity stunt. I felt like I had at last woken up and seen that the emperor had no clothes, and I was no longer the least bit interested in pretending that he did.
In more recent years, I've watched from the sidelines as Green Lantern died and returned, Green Arrow died and returned, and Bucky - who had long ago died - returned. Now, I simply yawn when I read that Steve Rogers and Barry Allen are back.
The sad part is that some truly wonderful stories have been told regarding characters who have died. The death of Captain America and its aftermath was very well handled. But the inevitable resurrection only cheapens the story and what his friends went through. It means ultimately that there is no growth for these iconic characters.
Perhaps that's as it should be. After all, lack of growth keeps the characters fresh for the next generation of comics readers and film goers (with increasingly greater emphasis on the latter). But it also means that comics have become cheap, shallow, and pointless artifacts in a culture that celebrates celebrity for celebrity's sake.
Sorry if this post comes off as overly bitter. In the end, comics are merely entertainment, and, as long as a good story can be told (as was the case with Bucky's return), then even death can be overridden. But, for the most part, dead characters should stay dead to avoid cheapening the stories and so comics can be taken in new and unexpected directions.
[ July 14, 2009, 11:17 PM: Message edited by: He Who Wanders ]
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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). But up until PAD took hold of her, Dolphin was basically a throw away DC character with one late 60’s Showcase appearance and then a few good bits of dialogue in Crisis on Infinite Earths #12. That’s right—she only appeared in basically two other issues prior (her most memorable thing was her cut-off shorts honestly until PAD took the character). He then used her perfectly: she went from being the reader’s POV person to someone questioning Aquaman’s actions to being his best ally and then when just maybe her presence in the book was getting repetitive, PAD used her to breath some fresh life into Garth much like he did with Orin.
