posted
I'm with Lash on this one. The first 12 - 13 issues are some of the most rereadable issues of the Justice League for me. There's good action, bickering, and humor.
Sure not all of the personalities are 100% on target, but the overall tone was unbelievable. The initial Booster/Beetle relationship in Paris were a hoot. The manipulations of Max (before being transformed into a robot/evil mastermind.
J'onn having a dry humor, and learning to love Oreos...not CHOCOS or whatever stupid thing they call them now.
From: Turn around... | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I also have a soft spot for the JLofA Ultraa saga. Remember reading this way back before I was really into comics.
From: Turn around... | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by CJ Taylor: 2: GLC I put this on my faves list because Kyle Rayner is in it, and he's a favourite character. If he left the book, so would I.
Sorry, just need to point out my frustration
From: Denver, CO | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Set: Other heroes that, IMO, suffered from campy or one-note characterization include powerhouse Martian Manhunter (who's like a shapeshifting Superman with a dash of Phoenix!)... Guy Gardner, who was always an unlikable ass, was the only character that felt like he was being portrayed correctly.
Okay, what was wrong with J'Onn's JLI-era characterisation? Seriously, I don't see that he was particularly "campy or one-note" at any point.
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
posted
Neither do I. In fact, he was probably fleshed out more in JLI than his entire 30 years of prior history at that point. He had been a one note character in his original Detective appearances and JLA appearances from the 50's all the way until JLDetroit, and it only then that we really learned anything about him. JLI took some of that and really expanded on it. The run provided some more in depth underestanding of some of his well-known aspects today: the sense of isolation; a tender-caring fatherly approach to several of the less powerful and newer JLAers; the "heart and soul of the JLA" idea; the enjoyment he takes in humanity's quirks, including people's sense of humor (and his attempts to understand it).
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
Here's what I remember of the JLI's characterizations throughout the issues I read, and I certainly didn't read the entire run;
Booster and Beetle hung out together and were comic relief, not interacting as much with the others.
Fire and Ice hung out together and didn't interact as much with the others.
Mister Miracle and Big Barda hung out together and didn't interact as much with the others.
Martian Manhunter went off by himself a lot, avoiding the others, and expressing bewilderment or even exasperation (I remember this as the era of 'short-tempered J'Onn') at their antics and shenanigans.
Guy Gardner antagonized everyone, including the normally unflappable Captain Marvel and J'Onn.
Captain Marvel seemed utterly clueless, and the butt of Gardner's snarky cracks, like Billy Batson wearing his dad's clothes and not at all like a supremely confident elder statesman among heroes with the 'wisdom of Solomon.'
Doctor Light seemed to hold most of the rest of the team in contempt, and the feeling seemed to be returned.
Red Rocket was comic relief, being a stange pastiche of a bad Russian cliche (like Chekov, but even more over the top) and a drunken Irishman, until he died and stopped being funny.
With the factions of Booster/Beetle, Miracle/Barda and Fire/Ice, and a bunch of other moody 'don't play well with others' sorts, alongside a perplexed Captain Marvel, it felt more like Justice League: 90210, full of bitchy cliques that didn't much like each other, than a superhero team.
I don't remember really well (since all of those comics got sold off years ago during a house-moving / 'everything must go' spree), but I believe that this era was the one that turned Captain Atom from a likable character in his own book into an overbearing jerk in the Justice League.
The only character that I think got boosted by her appearance would be the Black Canary, who finally was portrayed as a confident senior League veteran (who also came across as a bit flummoxed by the shenanigans of the newbies, IIRC), and not as 'Green Arrow's crimefighting appendage.'
Registered: Aug 2006
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Now, forgive me if this topic starts sounding more like "Lardy's Soapbox" than a Roundtable, but I hope it'll lead to some stimulating conversation as a jumping-off point. Here goes:
I have kind of a Reverse-Cobie thing going on with my comics experience. While Cobie has been openly expressing his discontent with DC's creative direction of late, I've generally been enjoying DC's stuff (or what I read of it) quite a bit lately. On the other hand, Marvel has been generally leaving me cold lately. So cold that I'm seriously considering dropping pretty much every Marvel title from my pull list! Why? (time for a numbered list of reasons--YAY!)
1) The $3.99 price point is being pushed down our throats pretty much without any perks. I've said it elsewhere, and I'll say it again--love or hate DC's extra features, at least all of their $3.99 books have extra content for your extra buck. Very few of Marvel's do. Plus, they've pretty much foregone launching any new books or miniseries at the $2.99 price. All those new Avengers books coming this summer? All $3.99.
It's not that I refuse to buy any comic for $3.99 with normal content. It's just that Marvel's way of doing it is really pissing me off. I respect DC's handling of it. They could easily take Marvel's route here, but they're not. Heck, they're even dropping the extra dollar on titles when the co-feature leaves! Eventually, I know they'll all go up, too, but I appreciate what DC's approach has been.
2) I know it's all apparently ending now, but Dark Reign was a HUGE turn-off for me. Love or hate DC's recent big events, their storylines didn't absolutely permeate their entire line MORE THAN ONE WHOLE DAMN YEAR!!! Blackest Night may have seemed all-encompassing, but its tie-ins were mostly in either self-contained minis, the two GL books and a handful of books that could really use the sales boost. Absolutely NO intrusion on such great runs as JMS's B&B, Rucka & William's Batwoman, Morrison's Batman and Robin, Superman's New Krypton storyline, etc.
If you couldn't give a crap about Norman Osborne, HAMMER and all of that wretched storyline, well Marvel said, "Tough shit, bitch! Eat it!" At this point, I don't CARE that it's finally coming to a close. I checked out long ago!
3) The cancelling/relaunching of too many of my favorites. Iron Fist was a huge loss. Hercules is ending (yeah, there's a follow-up with Amadeus Cho). Nova and the Guardians of the Galaxy are apparently going on "hiatus" during the upcoming "Thanos Imperative" event (even money says if those books are relaunched afterward, they'll be $3.99). X-Factor's about to be forced back into whatever asinine X-over's going on.
The past two years I've gravitated towards the few books that didn't seem enslaved by Marvel's editorial imperatives. Slowly but surely, each of those are being pulled from under my nose.
4) I'm losing interest in some books that have been "old reliables" for me. Cap and Daredevil come readily to mind.
With Cap I think Ed Brubaker's running out of steam. Cap Reborn was really pretty underwhelming for such a 'big event'. And the issues since the numbering resumed? Blech! This "Two Americas" storyline's gotta be the biggest stinker by a MILE in Ed's resume. And the Nomad backup (which despite at least being one of Marvel's few attempts to give you something for the extra dollar) is pretty crappy and, tonally, is an awkward complement to the main feature.
Daredevil? After a promising start to Diggle's run, DD's going nowhere fast. The direction of DD crossing morally shady eras was filled with promise, but so far, Diggle's taking the path of least resistance in his approach. A lot of safe choices, I'd say. And this is a slooooow moving tale, which will only get slower as DD's going bi-monthly for awhile. Sorry, but I'm unlikely to be patient with it, despite some terrific artwork.
So here I am on the precipice of telling my comic book guy to dump virtually everything. The only things I'm a lock to keep getting are Brubaker's Criminal and Incognito series. I'll also likely finish out the current Punisher Max arc and maybe beyond with the solid creative team of Jason Aarons and Steve Dillon. Everything else may be expendable. If I push the button, I'll get only the occasional Marvel trade or back issue--secondhand and for below retail if at all possible so as not to benefit Marvel directly from my purchases.
What would I do with the money not spent on Marvel's? Well, I doubt I'll buy less comics! Instead, it'll free up my budget to buy more DC's, more Vertigos and to sample and discover new indie comics!
Thoughts on any or all of my points? Facing similar or different crises in your comics-reading habits? Perfectly happy with everything?
Well, let the Roundtable spin!
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I'll engage in the conversation though I know you kind of know where I stand (and hope others weigh in as well).
A couple of comments:
- Absolutely no defense for $3.99. That's just plain annoying.
- All those books that got canceled or are on hiatus (which I also love) are from sales, not because of editorial edicts. I wish fandom would wake up and buy them too.
- I posted elsewhere that I thought Siege is better than Blackest Night. I stand by that. Now, I don't think either was the greatest thing ever, however, neither was that bad. But Blackest Night could have been told in 4 issues considering the entire middle seemed to go at a snails place without an iota of character moments (and to steal one of your phrases, was "Geoff Johns porn"). Siege at least is a pure 4 issue extravangza--every page has something for it. Plus the emotional impact we were supposed to have felt close to worthless to me (two scenes notwithstanding) because all of DC's crap these past few years have desensitized me to it.
- New Avengers is better than any single DC superhero team out there right now. The only one coming close is Doom Patrol but its not there yet. And New Avengers is by no means my favorite Marvel Comic. But it gets a bad rap and I figured I'd make at least one statement to anger *someone*.
- I think right now, Marvel is a better company than DC. I'm glad they beat them sales-wise because DC doesn't deserve to be #1. I like a ton of DC titles and I dislike several Marvel titles, but when it gets right down to it, the only company that is inciting my ire on a weekly basis is DC Comics and here are my reasons: Outsiders, Teen Titans, Titans, JSA & All-Stars, Power Girl, Magog, Cry for Justice. Lian Harper. DAN DIDIO.
Marvel is no saint by any means. And in fact, I think the Vertigo offices of DC, Image Comics, Dark Horse and Dynamite are all much more respectable comic book companies more inclined to acquiesce to some real creative integrity without being beholden to shareholders and larger corporate motives. However, Marvel is at least trying and in many places succeeding.
. . . Now, all that being said, the Marvel vs. DC thing isn't really all that important to me. A few months ago, when I was at my lowest in terms of caring about comic books, He Who Wanders told me to just start finding comics I liked in other places and find some real enjoyment in this hobby again. And I did. So I say, if you don't like 'em, drop 'em . Buy more Vertigo. Buy more Image, Dynamite, Boom!, Dark Horse and IDW. There are a ton of great comics out there. And there are a ton of great collections being turned into TPBs.
We, the consumer, don't owe the industry anything. They dug this whole they're in themselves and if the whole thing burns down, it shouldn't be use left holding the bag. We don't owe anyone anything by supporting monthly sales if they won't give us a product to believe in. So take your exra $$ and spend it on one of IDW's colletions of some 80's indie thing that sparked your interest. Whatever you review--I'll be here to comment and I can be convinced to buy anything.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Obviously, Des, I knew a bit what your views would be as I labelled myself the "Reverse-Cobie" from the outset. But it's nice to see you put them into words, nonetheless.
Like yourself and your qualifying of your praise for Marvel with certain reservations, I feel similarly with regard to DC. I freely admit that DC has LOTS of issues that need to be addressed. However, it just comes down to the fact that I'm simply not enjoying most of the Marvel books I'm buying while I am most certainly enjoying most that I'm buying from DC.
The key word here is "buying". I'm not (or no longer am) buying any of those DC titles you mentioned. And if none of them are up to snuff, I'm not losing one iota of sleep over it. JSA hurt a little bit to let go of, but once I made the decision to, I felt fine. After only a couple of months, I'm not even compelled to flip thru them any more.
On the other hand I'm suddenly struck by how I'm just suddenly disinterested in Marvel's universe. In hindsight it's not really that sudden, but the being struck was sudden and hit me all at once. It just hit me that either I'm not crazy about any Marvels I'm reading, or the ones that I am crazy about are all getting the can simultaneously! That's just too damn much money wasted on stuff that's not doing it for me at all! Meanwhile, there's all kinds of interesting projects popping up at DC and various indies that have me itching to buy them. I certainly can't afford to spend any more on comics, so something's gotta give.....
Seriously, I doubt I'll cut every single Marvel title out, but it'll probably coming down to less than five.
And as for team books, yeah, DC's are most certainly a mess. But DP is improving all the time as you say, REBELS is still highly entertaining and I'm optimistic that the new Legion series will be the best it's been in a long time. But I ain't sinkin' my funds into those Avengers books! Maybe I'll get the trades if they're wildly positively reviewed, but no floppies for yours truly there.
And I wasn't comparing Blackest Night to Siege directly (especially since I haven't read any of Siege), but more to Dark Reign. BN had a LOT of tie-ins, but at the same time, it only invaded the monthlies fairly minimally. As I said, it was only sales-challenged books that got direct tie-ins. At Marvel you couldn't hardly turn a page in a monthly without seeing Norman Osborne looking back at you. I know it benefits their shared universe concept and over-arching storylines, but for me it ruined and caused me to drop books that I had formerly been enjoying, such as Iron Man.
(By the way, Des, I'm curious to hear what you think of Brubaker's more recent Cap stories and whether you agree or disagree and to what extent. DD to, to a lesser degree.)
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I'm not going to be buying anymore regular sized $4 comic books. Just ain't gonna do it. And The $4 comics I do buy from DC are about to become fewer. I just this week put ADVENTURE # 10 back on the shelf and may drop JSA ALL-STARS. TEEN TITANS I already axed from my pull. The prices are out of control.
I *did* just pay $5 for the SHE-HULK SENSATIONAL 1-Shot, but that book is pretty thick.
I'm reading very few MARVELS regularly at present already: Mighty Avengers, GotGalaxy, New Mutants-- the second they hit $4, I'm out.
posted
I am most definitely a very fickle comic book reader. If a title goes on a dud spree for at most two issues I've dropped it and am complaining to everyone who will listen (mainly you guys! ) about how it's the worst comic in the world, and so on.
Often, on a nostalgia kick, I might pick up the issues I missed a few months down the line and find I really enjoyed them (case in point - the last few issues of Detective Comics).
So I guess my point is, all comics have bad periods - the question is how willing you are to ride those periods out? (Because, in the case of the Teen Titans franchise, you will have been riding it for a looooooooonnng time.)
On the other hand, I have dropped a whole bunch of franchises over the last few years and am extremely happy (and richer) for having done so. The JLA, JSA, Titans, Outsiders - I became the DC fan(atic) I am thanks to their team-books (especially the first three on that list) and once upon a time it would have been unfathomable to me to not have any of those books on my pull. But reading them became more aggravating than enjoyable and now I barely even care about them. Comics should be !FUN! (especially at these prices!) and if you're not experiencing that sensation from them Lard Lad then I wholeheartedly recommend that you ditch the ones you're not enjoying and try something new.
There's always back-issues if you feel you've missed out on something.
From: Australia | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
I look over the Marvel rack every week, and every week I see nothing that I want to spend money on. DC is getting most of my money...but it' not like I spend a ton.
Image gets some as well, and to be honest, the books I get from Image are my favorite.
I enjoyed Blackest Night. I enjoyed the ring promo, and tried a few books in the process. Didn't stick with them (although The Bug has gotten me back to Doom Patrol.) DC happens to house most of my favorites. Flash, Legion, Green Lantern. Flash and GL I have been enjoying, and LSH has kept me interested enough (barely) to keep with this dumb crossover. B&tB is an awesome title.
Spider Man, arguably a tie for favorite character of all time, is not a book I will support after what KJMS and Joey Q (mostly JQ) did to him. Started with the Gwen Stacey thing and finally just really lost me as a fan with One More Day. I just cannot care what happened after that (and I know there have been some good stories thanks to the library) I just cannot support that.
Another issue I do have with Marvel is that it is now BMB personal playground. He and JQ are running things the way they want to. Multi year storylines that link with the next, and affect the entire universe. Geoff does something a bit like that at DC (His GL stories...although those only really were told in his book and GLC, which led into Blackest Night and now into Brightest Day), and Didio has a stranglehold on things, but Robinson says he got the editors to agree to only destroy Star City (I believe him, if Dwayne M. is to be believed...the editorial mandates on JLA drove him from the book.)
The thing is, at DC you also have Morrison, Dini, Giffen and others that play in the sandbox. Blackest Knight may have been a _universe changer), but it brought back titles with Brightest Day. I read about everything that is happening iin Marvel and DC...I cannot name anyone except maybe DnA (with the space titles) except those two who are doig big things there.
Just my 2 cents.
From: Turn around... | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I’ll add in a couple of specifics to follow up with what I said and other’s comments:
- I did forget about REBELS when I said New Avengers was better than all DC team books, but I still think New Avengers is probably a better comic—but only slightly. REBELS is actually pretty good. But it says something that I always forget about it. It needs to take things up another notch. Certainly still worthy of collecting though.
- You mention Daredevil, Lardy, and my thoughts no recent issues. Like you, I tend to get a good 2-3 months behind in my reading sometimes and that's where I am with DD. I think I haven't even brought home the last two issues from the CBS yet, so I really can't give an up to date assessment. I know where I left off I was really enjoying the hell out of the comic and considered it still a 'must-read'.
- I am quite enjoying Captain America, much more so than yourself and Reboot, who I know were liking the title but not pleased with recent events. I do recognize Captain America: Reborn was not as up to snuff as the regular Cap title, but I actually like Hitch's art so I didn't mind it as much. I also like "Two Americas", which I think is a way for Bru to write a strait-up Bucky/Falcon story that is relevant to current events in the US. My one complaint is its run about one issue too long. I'm looking forward to the "Heroic Age" storyline coming next.
- Some more specific comics from Marvel I've really enjoyed that you may or may not collect are the Hulk/Incredible Hulk/Red Hulk comics. I know that's asking a real lot of a reader to buy three titles (there is a fourth, She-Hulks or something that I'm not buying). But I actually think this is the most fun crossover I've read in a long time. See the thread for my, Reboot and Mystery Lad's thoughts. It's not perfect but every issue was certainly worth purchasing.
- I'm also saddened by the cancellation / hiatus / restart status of several titles, like Incredible Hercules, Nova, Guardians of the Galaxy and Agents of Atlas. I hope AoA's restart takes off because I liked the title, I hope Nova and GotG come back soon because I think both are EXCELLENT and I actually like the recent developments in Herc and think that was a very bold move, so I want to follow-up where Amadaus goes. One title I'm really disappointed in the cancellation is Spider-Woman which I felt was in the 'top 5 best Marvel titles' category. It was really freaking good! But that stupid web motion-comic--which are so incredibly lame to begin with--burnt out Maleev.
Basically, I can see your point about Norman Osborn being in so many titles. No argument here, it was annoying as hell and I'm thrilled its over. I hope Iron Man can get back on track because I've stuck it out. I think the recent storyline was an improvement. Thor also maintained a high level of quality despite being dragged into it for 2 or so issues.
I know I'm enjoying tons of Spider-Man stories these days, while some not so much, but I hardly can muster the energy to recommend someone collect Spider-Man if they're totally against the no-marriage continuity. That argument I leave to Marvel, not me.
The X-Men books are crap these days and the only one that is keeping things interesting is New Mutants. Even X-Factor has been feeling lame for awhile, and the new storyline seemed like a good step in the right direction but faltered pretty quickly for me.
So--that's where I am on several Marvel titles though I'm not sure if I was had a point to make or not.
I just feel like DC's "crimes" have been far worse than Marvel. Whereas, I can give a Marvel comic a 'quiet drop' for not being up to snuff, I actually am so outraged by the lack of quality and editorially direction from DC that I feel not only must I drop the comic book, I have to come here to Legion World and vociferously inflict over the top criticisms against the company.
The inverse of that is that while I feel DC gets it right some times (Brave and Bold, etc.), Marvel more often gets it right than DC does (Nova, GotG, Cap, Daredevil, etc.). The strategy for most of us is to cherry-pick the best stuff and when we accidently buy something we didn't like, or something we collect turns to shit, its our duty to lambast those sons of bitches that did it
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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