posted
I'm with Reboot on this. Huge step back, going from one of DC's characters that mattered most to just another Bat-character third fiddle to Batman and Nightwing (possibly even Batwoman).
A new 'Oracle' and a new physically disabled character won't ever match up to what Babs became under Ostrander, Dixon and so many others.
I didn't care for how Babs ended up in the chair, but her Batgirl stories never held a candle to her Oracle stories (having read the vast majority of both).
Just my opinion though.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
One thing that get's me...you're all assuming that she is going to be a third fiddle to the other characters. Why? Why can she not have top tier status through all of this?
Not saying she is absolutely going to be the case...but why not? Gail is a powerful writer. She has bought into what they are doing and thinks it is a good thing at this point.
We also have not seen how/why she got out of the chair and back into the cape and cowl. Like most things of this magnitude...I'm waiting and seeing what happens.
From: Turn around... | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Here's the thing about saying "why can't she get out of the wheelchair". It's like asking "why doesn't Daredevil get his eyes fixed/replaced"? There's a thousand ways in the Marvel U that Matt could start seeing, but no-one ever brings HIM up as an example!
quote:Originally posted by Dev Em: One thing that get's me...you're all assuming that she is going to be a third fiddle to the other characters. Why? Why can she not have top tier status through all of this?
Because, as Batgirl, she's purely a spin-off character, and they NEVER get genuine "top tier status".
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
quote:Originally posted by Reboot: Here's the thing about saying "why can't she get out of the wheelchair". It's like asking "why doesn't Daredevil get his eyes fixed/replaced"? There's a thousand ways in the Marvel U that Matt could start seeing, but no-one ever brings HIM up as an example!
I think DD's different. His blindness has always been a part of his character from the get-go. Barbara was crippled two decades or so into her existence. Yes, DD could probably be cured by Marvel tech or magic, but doing so would undermine the essence of what he's ALWAYS been about!
quote: Because, as Batgirl, she's purely a spin-off character, and they NEVER get genuine "top tier status".
Was she ever really "top tier" as Oracle?
Look, don't take me as anti-Oracle because I'm not. I'm just giving the new book a chance because I love the character, and I love the writer. If anyone else were doing this (with VERY few exceptions), I wouldn't give the book a thought.
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
So...Nightwing is not top tier. Has not carried his own book, or even led the JLA. Did not take over for the Bat, if even as a temporary thing. Babs was/is just as top tier as Dick. As Oracle, a character that I have always felt was better than Batgirl by the way, has held her own just as well as Dick has...even though they are simply spin-off characters. Babs may not have the years behind her that Dick did as Robin, and then Nightwing, but she has potential to be great as Batgirl, just as she is/was as Oracle.
This takes niothing away from what they did with the character as Oracle. I hope they have a good story to tell, and plan to give them the benifit of the doubt. If it sucks and is a disaster...then I'll be the first to say it.
I'm interested to see how this came about...what history they keep, and how they explain it...if they even do. I hope that they do, and Gail seems to be hinting that there is a reason for this.
As far as Daredevil goes...his blindness is part of his origin. The accident that caused the blindness gave him his powers (at least that's the way I always read it). There is no saying that giving him back his sight would not negate the powers that loosing it gave him. Barbara was shot as a stunt in a comic years after her introduction. It wasn't like they had a plan for her with that little story arc. It wassn't until a few years later that John and Kim had a brainstorm that made her a fixture once more.
Even then, she was in the shadow of the Bat. he funded her. he supplied the tech that she utilized, at least in the beginning. So any heights that she hit as Oracle was as a spin off character as well. Thre's no saying she will not flourish here as well.
From: Turn around... | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Dev Em: So...Nightwing is not top tier.
Nope. [In fact Dick/Nightwing is doubly-screwed - in the shadow not only of Bruce/Batman, but himself as Robin...]
quote:Originally posted by Dev Em: I'm interested to see how this came about...what history they keep, and how they explain it...if they even do. I hope that they do, and Gail seems to be hinting that there is a reason for this.
Well, judging from the BoP solicit, that part of history is just gone...
quote:Originally posted by Dev Em: It wasn't like they had a plan for her with that little story arc. It wassn't until a few years later that John and Kim had a brainstorm that made her a fixture once more.
Oracle tagline: "Crippled by the Joker, Barbara Gordon chose to fight crime a new way, using her intelligence and building a network to enable others to do what she could no longer do herself."
Come up with a similar tagline for her as Batgirl that can't apply to a dozen other characters. How that Oracle came about really doesn't matter, just the result, which is a more interesting and more UNIQUE character. [Remember, also, that when she was shot, she'd ALREADY been written out because she had no particular hook...]
quote:Originally posted by Dev Em: Even then, she was in the shadow of the Bat. he funded her. he supplied the tech that she utilized, at least in the beginning. So any heights that she hit as Oracle was as a spin off character as well. Thre's no saying she will not flourish here as well.
But the point is that, as Batgirl, she's simply the Xteenth Batclone - we know that AT LEAST Bruce/Batman, Damien/Robin, Dick/Nightwing, Jason Todd/Red Hood, Tim/Red Robin and Kate Kane/Batwoman are still running around in the DCnU. [It's quite possible that Helena/Huntress, Cass Cain/Blackbat (only found out about that name the other day... really?!), Steph/Spoiler and others are still around too]. Moreover, she doesn't have the inherent character "hook" that most of those have - she's JUST a Batclone without an distinguishing feature.
Whereas, as Oracle, she has an actual character niche and hook not covered elsewhere. And any attempt to create a replacement Oracle will be in HER shadow, rather than her lying in someone else's.
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
posted
Batgirl: Having been crippled by the Joker and forging a new career for herself as Oracle, she has ought back and regained the ability to fight crime in cyberspace and the streets of Gotham.
Look. I happen to agree with you in the respect that I would rather see her continue as Oracle, and leading the Birds of Prey. But I am also open enough to check out the Batgirl book...why, because I am trusting Gail to tell a damned good story.
From: Turn around... | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
In order to do what Oracle does Barbara doesn´t have to be crippled. It wouldn´t surprise me in the least if the new Batgirl is both Batgirl and Oracle. That would certainly give her a 'hook'...
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
There just isn't a good solution to this. DC wants Babs to be Batgirl, so it IS a question of whether it is done well. I don't think it is fair to compare ancient Batgirl backup stories to contemporary Oracle stories. The only fair comparison is between Oracle stories and the upcoming Batgirl stories we haven't read yet. I think if you liked Gail's Oracle, there ought to be a decent chance her Batgirl will be goos, as well.
-------------------- ...but you don't have a moment where you're sitting there staring at a table full of twenty-five characters with little name signs that say, "Hi, my superpower is confusing you!"
From: Chicago, IL | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I wonder what happens to Cassandra, Stephanie, Proxy, Lady Blackhawk, and Helena B? its like that they are just blanked out of existence....
From: Hayward, CA | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
funny thing you mentioned Flamebird.... she'll appear in Batwoman and they changed the relationship by making them cousins instead of Aunt/niece. :\
From: Hayward, CA | Registered: Jul 2003
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