cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: I think the bad stuff that Levitz did is, at least, ordinary bad writing. It wasn't retconning, and it wasn't done just to promote the author's pet theory regardless of logic.
You'll find few fans who think that having Shadow Lass sleep with Earth-Man was a good idea. But making Garth into Proty was a whole other category of bad.
Ken, I would certainly count stuff like Cham's hostile relationship with his aunt as retconning, or maybe a retcon of a retcon. Either way, for every cool thing that Levitz did last time out, there was at least one other thing that made me wonder what the hell he was thinking.
As I said, I haven't attempted to read all of 5YG as a continuous narrative, so I can't really judge it as I would some other works I've seen.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
I'll take Proty-Garth over drunken Imra sleeping with and mindwiping Rokk any day.
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: I'll take Proty-Garth over drunken Imra sleeping with and mindwiping Rokk any day.
Was Imra supposed to have retroactively, somehow, "known all along" that the Garth she'd married and had kids with wasn't the original version?
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
It's actually left ambiguous as to whether/how much Imra knew. She certainly had recognized the change in him after his resurrection, but whether she suspected the truth isn't clear.
It's also not clear whether it was only Proty after the resurrection, or some sort of combination of Proty and Garth.
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
Thanks. I guess I'd have to read the whole thing before I decided how high it measured on the Creep-O-Meter.
As for the drunken mind-wipe thing... [scowl] What they call this on feminist fan boards is "slut-shaming." It's like we were being informed that female sexuality is so inherently immoral that it's a logical transition from a drunken one-night stand to wiping the memory of somebody you know to hide your shame... which seems so much more about the author's hang-ups than anything to do with how women might view our sexuality in the "ideal" future.
Really, the passage of time has only increased my contempt for that line of thinking, and what it says about TPTB in comics and how they view women.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
quote:Originally posted by cleome45: Really, the passage of time has only increased my contempt for that line of thinking, and what it says about TPTB in comics and how they view women.
The reaction to Shady and Earth-Man occasionally trod that line, as well, IMO.
If Sun Boy hooked up with Beauty Blaze or Flare, it would be all high-fives around the clubhouse and 'dude!' and, depending on the writing, the only question might be whether or not she would be magically redeemed from her evil ways by the power of his luvin.'
(Like Emma Frost and Cyclops or Diamond Lil and Madison Jeffries are sometimes portrayed to be.)
There's always been a double-standard, and sometimes it's obvious, and sometimes subtle.
Brainy can be an elitist jerk, and it's apparently a more popular characterization than his original one, but if Shady is an elitist jerk, it's because she's 'bitchy' or 'cliqueish.'
More recently, both Chemical Kid and Dragonwing have expressed both the same dismissive devil-may-care attitude about the Legion and it's rules, and both have also been seen to have a bit more depth than just 'the troublemaker,' and yet he seems (to me, anyway) to get far more of a pass for that attitude than she does.
Rebelliousness or disrespect of authority in someone like Chemical Kid seems to still be seen by some as a right and proper 'leaving the nest' / 'growing up' stage for a young man, while it's seen as more improper and 'uppity' and 'ingrateful' in a young woman like Dragonwing.
Some of that, on the other hand, I think comes from Chemical Kid having gotten his 'rounding out' as a character earlier, in the Adventure bit set on Phlon, while Dragonwing has just now gotten fleshed out a bit, leaving six months or so for the bad first impression that the both of them made to set in harder for her.
Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by MLLASH's *glare*: As a whole, I LOVED the TMK and TM minus K era, even if I did not like every single development and issue therein.
I stand with my twin from another universe on this one. I may not have liked every single thing that they did, but I loved the overall feel of it.
It was deconstruction that was going to turn into a reconstruction...only editorial interference reared its ugly head in a way that left them scrambling to fix problems that were never really broken to begin with. Trying to correct the ship took a lot of effort...that could have been better spent forwarding what they wanted to do.
From: Turn around... | Registered: Jul 2003
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
[snip]
quote:Originally posted by Set: ...If Sun Boy hooked up with Beauty Blaze or Flare, it would be all high-fives around the clubhouse and 'dude!' and, depending on the writing, the only question might be whether or not she would be magically redeemed from her evil ways by the power of his luvin.'...
Ugh. Don't give them any ideas. (And I thought that Emma Frost's change was supposed to have been jump-started by the deaths of her Hellions or something. But I haven't kept up on X-Lore in the past twenty years. It just doesn't interest me, and neither does Scott/Emma.)
quote:...Brainy can be an elitist jerk, and it's apparently a more popular characterization than his original one, but if Shady is an elitist jerk, it's because she's 'bitchy' or 'cliqueish.'..
FWIW, I run into a lot of fans my age that really don't like the more dickish version of Brainy. And the younger fans that gravitate towards the cartoon version are mostly familiar with a character that only did truly awful things while possessed by a villain. I think most of the fans I'm describing here are female, so make of that what you will.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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quote:Originally posted by cleome45: As for the drunken mind-wipe thing... [scowl] What they call this on feminist fan boards is "slut-shaming." It's like we were being informed that female sexuality is so inherently immoral that it's a logical transition from a drunken one-night stand to wiping the memory of somebody you know to hide your shame... which seems so much more about the author's hang-ups than anything to do with how women might view our sexuality in the "ideal" future.
Yes, it was real slut-shaming when Superman wiped Lois's mind in Superman II.
Of course, you could easily spin this the opposite way: when a woman wipes a man's mind of sex, it's slut-shaming and shows how badly the media treats women. When a man wipes a woman's mind of sex, he's violating her for his own convenience and it still shows how badly the media treats women.
This is one of the things that bugs me about feminist criticism--often it's a no-win situation where no matter which sex is on which side of the scenario, it gets spun as being anti-woman in some manner.
I'll also point out that in the case of Earth-Man, racism is a more "realistic" sort of evil than many comic book villains (even if the target of his racism is fictional), so the audience is much less inclined to forgive him for it. Besides, he never repented; it's not as if he said he wanted to be good and we're just trying to figure out if he's sincere.
Registered: Apr 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Sketch Lad: ...I thought sad and difficult stories were well told. I suppose that makes me a fan of the era.
I am definitely a fan of the era, for that exact reason.
I really hate the prevalence in comics these days to make EVERYTHING grim and dark, but I don't necessarily hate a grim or dark story just because it goes to uncomfortable places. For all that the 5YL universe was a horrible place to live in a lot of the time, the core Legionnaires of that period never once lost their ideals. Rokk, Vi, Ayla, Cham, Jan...despite their friends being killed, despite the Dominion winning Earth, despite Earth eventually being destroyed, none of this was enough to stop them actually behaving like heroes. And there were light moments and moments of genuine victory in amongst it all. So yeah, I am a big fan of that era, and I would in fact say that era is what made me fall in love with the Legion and their universe. Before that I had always liked them, but not really followed them regularly or anything.
Having said all of the above, I do recognise that there were things that were handled badly....it's problematic that Brainy knew Dawnstar was Bounty the whole time and that other Legionnaires must have figured it out too yet they did nothing about it, and also that the Legionnaires who knew Furball was Brin didn't seem to be all that fazed by his degeneration into essentially a loyal pet...characters like Devlin, Ivy, Celeste and Bounty a lot of the time were fifth wheels when you got the impression they were supposed to have a lot more relevance...
Also, I have despised what Bendis did with the Avengers from Disassembled on and feel that they are only now as a franchise and as characters BEGINNING to recover from that, so I definitely understand why people would hate what TMK did to the Legion even if I personally love it...
-------------------- Read the alternate adventures of the Legion after Legion of Three Worlds! postlo3w
Registered: Nov 2009
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: Yes, it was real slut-shaming when Superman wiped Lois's mind in Superman II.
Uh, what? Superman didn't wipe Lois' mind because he was ashamed of himself for having sex with her. He wanted to spare her having a broken heart. And by the way, it was the wrong thing for him to do, even though he did it out of concern for her feelings.
quote:Of course, you could easily spin this the opposite way: when a woman wipes a man's mind of sex, it's slut-shaming and shows how badly the media treats women. When a man wipes a woman's mind of sex, he's violating her for his own convenience and it still shows how badly the media treats women.
I don't understand why this would be strange to you. Frankly, when I tune into a traditional superhero book, I don't want to see this kind of behavior from anyone. (Hey, if it's horror, black comedy or a Vertigo book, that's something else. I may not be into that stuff in general, but I can see the value of it. Depending on the author/artist.) Do you honestly think that what most feminists dream of is an "equal" world where women run around brutalizing and brainwashing men out of revenge? Let me be blunt: if that's what you think, you don't understand feminism. I've hung out on feminist boards for years, and the only people I've seen advocate that kind of thinking are trolls.
quote:This is one of the things that bugs me about feminist criticism--often it's a no-win situation where no matter which sex is on which side of the scenario, it gets spun as being anti-woman in some manner.
That's because there's this thing called patriarchy, Dude. In which men run most of the world and decide how the culture works for us all. That's the whole point: Women don't "win" regardless of who appears to be in charge. If it's all about power-over relations and not both parties starting out with equal power, there IS no "winner." So frankly, if the offending scenario in Legion had been: Rokk physically overpowers a drunken Imra and forces here to have sex with him, yes. It's still a crap story that indicates the person who wrote it has some major issues with women and their sexuality.
If you'd like to know more about it, I'd recommend a blog called Feminism 101. But please don't troll them. Anti-feminist trolling stinks.
quote:I'll also point out that in the case of Earth-Man, racism is a more "realistic" sort of evil than many comic book villains (even if the target of his racism is fictional), so the audience is much less inclined to forgive him for it. Besides, he never repented; it's not as if he said he wanted to be good and we're just trying to figure out if he's sincere.
I don't know what that has to do with anything else we've discussed. Furthermore, I've already gone on record repeatedly as being annoyed with that plot development. It could have been done in an interesting way, but it wasn't. It was there for titillation and shock value and nothing else, so far as I can tell.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: Of course, you could easily spin this the opposite way: when a woman wipes a man's mind of sex, it's slut-shaming and shows how badly the media treats women. When a man wipes a woman's mind of sex, he's violating her for his own convenience and it still shows how badly the media treats women.
Well...yeah. Both those examples ARE anti-woman. Can you honestly say one of them *isn't?*
I mean don't get me wrong, neither example is greatly complimentary to men either...in the example of Imra wiping Rokk's mind, there's an assumption that his big head isn't capable of overriding his little head, so she needs to take that choice away from him. Making men look like they're not responsible for their sexual urges IS historically an anti-woman tactic, because then it shifts all the responsibility/blame for sex onto the woman...but it also makes men look like easily manipulated animals with no self-control, which makes it weird to me that so many guys are more than happy to use that as a defence.
In the example of a guy mindwiping a girl...well hopefully, I don't actually need to point out how that makes the guy look bad...
It's not like there's only one way that you can display misogynistic tendencies; there's no reason one of those examples above invalidates the other, they can both be as lousy as each other...and being a misogynist doesn't automatically make you a champion of men either. Sometimes it's just symptomatic of a shitty attitude towards humans in general.
-------------------- Read the alternate adventures of the Legion after Legion of Three Worlds! postlo3w
Registered: Nov 2009
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quote:Originally posted by razsolo: Well...yeah. Both those examples ARE anti-woman. Can you honestly say one of them *isn't?*
Certainly you can call them both anti-human. But they can't both be specifically anti-woman. To say that they are is a double standard which says that whichever side is female is the one that is being treated the worst.
I see this sort of thing a lot. For instance, Earth-2 Robin and Huntress died in Crisis. I've seriously seen this claimed to be a sign of how female characters are mistreated at DC because Huntress is a woman and died.
Registered: Apr 2010
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: To say that they are is a double standard which says that whichever side is female is the one that is being treated the worst.
You don't listen very well, Ken.
quote:I see this sort of thing a lot. For instance, Earth-2 Robin and Huntress died in Crisis. I've seriously seen this claimed to be a sign of how female characters are mistreated at DC because Huntress is a woman and died.
If there are fewer women than men in comics, and if women are more prone to die, to disappear, to be depowered and maltreated in ways that have specifically sexual overtones --if they are not blatantly sexual-- then yes, it does have to do with sexist attitudes towards women.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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