quote:Originally posted by Ricardo: [QB] 14) Just because you don't know what to do with a character is no reason to kill the character...
15) ... unless it's Karate Kid.
Says the guy...that truly is hilarious...he or Paul Levitz played a role in killing every Legion character killed in the book up till about 1993...it's easier to list the ones they didn't kill...
Supergirl, Invisible Kid, and Ferro Lad. Those are the only ones they didn't kill between the Legions founding and 1993. All the otehrs...killed by mssrs Levitz and Giffen acting together or separately.
And in the case of Giffen...he was stopped from killing even more of them....
Hat Trick Shvaughn...
Among others.
Levitz and Giffen combined and separately killed probably close to 20 long standing or important Legion characters.
They've got no ground to call anyone else about killing...as they pretty much ushered the trend into the industry in the early 80's...and Paul Levitz still subscribes to the theory that characters need to be killed to have an emotional impact...which to me just proves his limitations as a writer.
Ironically enough, his greatest story(and Mr. Giffens as well most likely), they did not kill a single major character...too bad they lost sight of that.
I'm not sure which one killed more...Levitz or Giffen, but I just know Giffen would have killed the most if he hadn't been stopped....and he didn't stop at characters either...he killed Earths and moons.
[ November 22, 2008, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Blockade Boy: How long did those two have impact on the book compared to others?
Far more than Tom McCraw, Tom Peyer or Edmond Hamilton - as much as fans of ADV-era Legion might argue. Legion became a hot property with Levitz, no question about it. It doesn't mean it had its great moments before that (Shooter's run, for instance). But it didn't even had its own title before that. Legion was a sub-product of Superboy. As for the killing, Ferro Lad started it. Or even worse: Lightning Lad started it - WAAAAAAAAY before Levitz.
From: Brasil | Registered: May 2008
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posted
I love Levitz and Giffen, and all of their runs. But saying they had 'a far bigger impact' than Edmond Hamilton? That's pushing it. There might not even be a Legion or any sci-fi superheroes without Hamilton and Otto Binder.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
There wouldn't have been a Captain Future without Hamilton, and thus, my whole childhood would have been a poorer time... but well, Hamiltons Legion merits? Have to look em up...
From: Bamberg, Germany | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
I'm pretty sure Shooter has been a part of more Legion stories than Giffen...Shooter's killed one character in about 80 something issues he's written in 40 years....and it was a character he created. Although he is about to kill another one.
Still Shooter has created just about all of the memorable Legion Villains outside of the Time Trapper, and more than his share of memorable Legionaires...
Conversely, Giffen has been a part of about the same number of Legion stories and his kill count reads:
Blok Sunboy Mon-El(later resurrected) Rond Vidar Chameleon Boy Karate Kid 3 times Princess Projectra Laurel Gand 2 of Duo Damsel's bodies(resurrected one of them)
And I didn't even name any Villains...
And he's created I think maybe 5 memorable Legion characters...in spite of one of the longest associations with the team.
Levitz is similar although not quite as bad as Giffen...but he still killed way more than he created, and way more than any other creator aside from Giffen, per story written or total. IMo his kill specialty was Villains, the really good Villains..and he tended to kill them permanently...and like Giffen, he created probably less than all but a handful of creators that ever worked on the book....inspite of the longest tenure on the book.
He killed way more than he created...unlike Shooter, Siegel, Hamilton...and even Mark Waid and Gerry Conway.
Sorry...I don't really want to see either of these guys on the Legion that just got brought back...
Maybe an elseworlds where they can kill all the characters they haven't killed yet
Ultraboy's never been killed yet right? Maybe they can take him out once...
...maybe Giffen can blow up the Solar System and then the Universe of the Elseworlds Legion he is writing, since that's about all he didn't blow up yet...then he can kill Karate Kid 14-15 more times, since a segment of Legion fans actually seem willing to pay money to see that...they could make it a maxi-series where he kills Val every issue for a year. They could charge 3.99 per issue for it...because creativity of that caliber is worth 4 bucks an issue...and a good time can be had by all that way.
Either that or they should have to write the Legions they left others to write...
[ November 23, 2008, 02:01 AM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
I can understand the reservations about having the old team come back to a regular legion book. I would love some fresh blood that doesn't destroy everything too.
Maybe an option could be a mini series. Marvel has done a few Iron Man projects with David Micheline and Bob Layton. For old time fans of the series when it was under their direction, it was like finding lost issues.
Maybe we don't need to go completely back, but rather just pop in for a visit.
Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
No...no...hell no...uh uh...NO...Nada...not in this lifetime...not in any of hawkman and hawkgirl's lifetimes...no no....nope...NO KEITH GRIFFEN ON A REAL LEGION BOOK EVER AGAIN...
he enjoys killing KK too much...and can we also remember he had a hand in Una being eaten by RATS!!!! NO...KG on a legion title ever...again. Love what he did with the legion in the past...but no not on another book again...no.
-------------------- Bring back the super-cousins
From: nyc | Registered: Jul 2003
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Silver Age Lad
Part-time member living in another century
posted
What Keith Giffen did good:
1980s art/plot contributions Plot for 5YL
What Keith Giffen did bad:
Artwork on Magic Wars and 5YL Killing KK three times Retconning Luornu as Triad for no reason Killing 'Una' Kid Quantum Garth/Proty Shvaugn/Sean Destroying Earth in a pique with DC The trial of Polar Boy The Subs Special
From: Ancient Kingdom of Northumbria, UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
Is there somewhere on line where the entire column can be read?
Count me in on the pro-Giffen side. The "TMK" era is what drew me into the Legion, and it's pretty clear from reading the stuff that followed his departure that his ideas were the main component of what I liked.
-------------------- Chaim Mattis Keller ckeller@nyc.rr.com Legion-Reference-File Lad
From: New York, NY, USA | Registered: Nov 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Silver Age Lad: What Keith Giffen did good:
1980s art/plot contributions Plot for 5YL
What Keith Giffen did bad:
Artwork on Magic Wars and 5YL Killing KK three times Retconning Luornu as Triad for no reason Killing 'Una' Kid Quantum Garth/Proty Shvaugn/Sean Destroying Earth in a pique with DC The trial of Polar Boy The Subs Special
Funny, the bad part is my good part. Bad part of Keith Giffen was leaving the book, actually, to some not-so-good fill-ins.
From: Brasil | Registered: May 2008
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killing of Una Kid Quantum (since it was in the 'new' history post Mon-EL punch...hey his was the first recon punch eat that superboy-prime...it was in a new timeline of sorts so it was true in this legion history and not the original...same with proty-garth...could say the same for Shvaugn/Sean...but at the same time HATED THAT CHANGE). Destroying Earth...not so bad
And Am I the only one who wished he drew Legion #50 with the time trapper's "death" to have been more like his Pencil work in the Great Darkness Saga?????? It would have been a more memorial story with greater impact I think. Esp that last image of the Time trapper's robe blowing in the wind on that rock spike.
-------------------- Bring back the super-cousins
From: nyc | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Fandom still divided after so many years... in some parts it's even the same discussion than ten years ago on Legion-List. Those were the days, eh Ricardo?
But I guess some things never change. I'll never be a Reboot lover as well, even though I intend to someday reread it... when I'm done with all the other stuff I intend to read and reread like JSA, L.E.G.I.O.N., Love & Rockets, Fables......
As far as Giffen goes, I liked most of his stuff pre- and post-5YL. I also liked his art on 5YL, which is strange cause I'm normally a fan of classic "beautiful" art like George Perez is doing... but I liked Giffen and Pearson. The only things I did not like were the "over-the-top" elements which were Profem, Garth = Proty and the idea of making the Clones the real Legion... glad that we did not have to live though that last one...
From: Bamberg, Germany | Registered: Feb 2007
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