I liked it. Too bad we couldn't have Francis Manapul art on the inside. Click Here For A SpoilerDream Girl's back at the end. Posted by Superboy on :
Click Here For A SpoilerAm I on Super-Crack or did this issue bear almost no resemblance to the solicit, right down to the creative team?
The summary as seen on the DC Website:
It's the final issue! The climactic conclusion of the Universal Annihilation War is here and every Legionnaire, every reservist and even the United Planets' Young Heroes battle to save existence. Also featuring the return of Cosmic Boy, the death of a longtime Legionaire and a gorgeous wraparound cover!
Posted by Acid Digestion Lad on :
Wait...gwuah?? Okay now I gotta go get this book.
Posted by Vee on :
quote:Originally posted by Superboy: Click Here For A SpoilerAm I on Super-Crack or did this issue bear almost no resemblance to the solicit, right down to the creative team?
The summary as seen on the DC Website:
It's the final issue! The climactic conclusion of the Universal Annihilation War is here and every Legionnaire, every reservist and even the United Planets' Young Heroes battle to save existence. Also featuring the return of Cosmic Boy, the death of a longtime Legionaire and a gorgeous wraparound cover!
Probably the same stuff I'm apparently on. This issue is nothing like that at all. I found it to be rushed and unsatisfying for the most part. No Shooter story to end his Legion run, no Manapul art which made it distracting. No conclusion to most of the plot threads that have been lying around for months. No Princess, no Timebr Wolf, no Cos, no "every Legionnaire, ever", no Young Heroes.
The only 2 positive points are a one panel shot of Wildfire and the return of Nura.
I for one am very disappointed and how this was handled.
Posted by Semi Transparent Fellow on :
Sounds like Shooter and Manapul told DC to f-off and went on strike. Don't blame them, really.
Posted by Superboy on :
Click Here For A SpoilerIt wasn't what I was expecting, but I am glad they brought Dream Girl back if nothing else.
Eh...I'm glad they didn't kill Phantom Girl as well. I wasn't really too excited about that.
It's actually kind of a happy ending for this Legion.
I'm really amazed they didn't bring Cosmic Boy back though....that is the huge difference to my thinking.
That could be revealing as to just what has transpired...they decided to use that Cosmic Boy subplot in L03W or elsewhere and rewrote the issue to remove it. This could be basically everything Shooter intended minus the return of Cos, the death of whoever(Phantom Girl I assume) and the huge suppoorting cast. If they did redo this issue on the fly, leaving out the huge cast makes sense for time purposes. And I'm kinda glad they didn't kill Phantom Girl.
It was a hokey hacked out ending but it could have been a lot worse. It could have been a senseless death filled hacked out ending.
No doubt...we'll hear from Shooter at some point exactly what was supposed to happen and what didn't. Posted by Superboy on :
Click Here For A SpoilerI do think it's ironic that one of Shooter's creations takes center stage in the conclusion of Final Crisis this week, yet Shooter himself is regelated to a complete afterthought as a writer in the same exact week.
Not to mention the Parasite takes the stage in Superman this week...and he's also a Shooter creation.
I'll bet they end up using some of Jim's stuff from this run elsewhere in the DC Uni and in future versions of the Legion though...they always have before. And that's the true indicator of Shooter's talent and creativity.
Posted by stephbarton on :
Wait, what happened? I don't get my comics till this weekend (LCS is too far from where I work for me to go on workdays) so I was debating, to be spoiled, not to be spoiled, and now it sounds like the spoilers I'm getting are all all wrong.
So serious, what's the lowdown because I think my expectation bubble just got burst.
Posted by Tromium on :
Dan Didio is a contemptible fraud. I am mailing this issue back to him, demanding my money back. He took it on false pretenses.
I hope Mr. Shooter will join us someday and tell us how *his* story was supposed to end.
Posted by Superboy on :
Click Here For A Spoiler First of all, Cos didn't return, there was no appearance by all major supporting characters and other superteams from this run, and no good guys died except for a UP Diplomat who was deleted.
Basically, the plot is like bad rewrite of Tron or the Matrix. The Destroyers are souless virtual beings who don't actually exist in reality and only exist in a virtual reality of their creation because they uploaded their consciousness into that virtual reality long ago and their physical forms are long since dead. They consider reality evil and are out to eliminate all life from the real Universe. Anything they find of interest or of value is scanned up into their virtual reality while it's physical form is destroyed. Brainy uploads the consciousness of Garth, Imra, Violet, Invisible Kid, Ultraboy, Starboy and Gazele into avatars in the virtual reality to fight them, since the Destroyers can't be fought in reality as it is sort of a virtual virtual reality to them. As this is happening Invisible Kid hands Brainy a cd rom disc and asks Brainy to alter his avatar, making him more adult, muscular and handsome to impress Gazelle since she has never seen him.
Meanwhile...Colossal Boy and Chamelon Boy are embroiled in some meaningless side battle of little or no true consequence to the story.
Back in the virtual reality, heroes are doing ok but starting to lose the battle, the Destroyers converge on Brainy and the unconscious real bodies of the Legionnaires in his lab. The Destroyers pileon on Brainy and whup up on him and kill the real bodies of the Legionaires but as this is happening, Lyle who hasn't been able to keep Gazelle off of him with his artificial enhancements, and is getting kind of sick of not being liked for himself, tells Brainy to undo the changes to his avatar. Brainy, now protected by his force shield from the onrushing Destroyers, tells Lyle that he doesn't have time for such nonsense and then Lyle points out that the program he gave Brainy to change his appearance contains the code to create changes in the virtual reality, so Brainy goes a-ha and uploads his force shield into the virtual reality to protect the Legionaires.
So the good guys win but their real bodies were all destroyed. Luckily for us though Brainy had created perfect clones of their real bodies and now downloads the Legionaires consciousness back into the cloned bodies. As he is doing this he also hooks himself up to the machine and downloads Dream Girl from his conciousness into a perfect clone of her body and she's back and she can see again. She says the gang is invited to a wedding and Brainy sheepishly agrees. Smiles all around.
The End.
Oh yeah, when Brainy uploaded his shield he actually did change Lyle back to his true appearance in the VR and Gazele while pretty upset and stunned at first, gets over it once he proves he is an alpha male in spirit by saving all their virtual butts with the program he gave to Brainy.
That is the first summary I have ever written so apologies if it is lame.
Basically the run ends on Dreamy's prediction of her and Brainiac being married coming true.
If I didn't know better I'd think Mark Waid ghosted this issue.
Who is Justin Thyme(the credited writer for this story) anyway?
[ January 28, 2009, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Posted by Superboy on :
Dan Didio is a contemptible fraud. I am mailing this issue back to him, demanding my money back. He took it on false pretenses.
I hope Mr. Shooter will join us someday and tell us how *his* story was supposed to end.
Wouldn't surprise me if Justin Thyme was Mark Waid...
Edit: or Tony Bedard
[ January 28, 2009, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Posted by reckless on :
"Justin Thyme" sounds like the comic book world's answer to Alan Smithee (the official DGA pseudonym used when a director pulls his name off a film and unofficially used in other entertainment industry credits).
This issue sounds incredibly lame after all that build-up. Click Here For A SpoilerSo you're saying there is no resolution to the Projectra plot? She just nearly kills Tinya, scrambles Imra's brain, and sends Brin away -- and none of that is addressed? I suspect TPTB were concerned that the outcome of Shooter's run would have messed up Lo3W (especially if they killed a character), so they rewrote Shooter's original story. Hence, the pseudonym for the writer. Posted by Askanipsion on :
quote:Originally posted by googoomuck: I liked it. Too bad we couldn't have Francis Manapul art on the inside. Click Here For A SpoilerDream Girl's back at the end.
How is the art inside?
Click Here For A SpoilerIs Dream Girl still blind and powerless? Does Nura look good in the issue?
Click Here For A Spoilerso a member dies, who is it? Posted by Superboy on :
quote:Originally posted by reckless: "Justin Thyme" sounds like the comic book world's answer to Alan Smithee (the official DGA pseudonym used when a director pulls his name off a film and unofficially used in other entertainment industry credits).
Yeah it's definitely a fake name, and we have no idea who actually wrote the story. I've been pretty surprised to find out some of the writers that have written these sorts of stories under a fake name before though.
The reason I think it might be Mark Waid or Tony Bedard is that with a book that has fans like the Legion, not to mention the large cast, they usually bring in someone who knows the book and they give them a fake name because the story is going to suck and the fake name protects the writer from embarrasment and fan backlash....I assume it's still a paycheck though.
For instance...when James Robinson "allegedly" nearly left the Superman title a few months ago, the first guy they called for damage control was, "allegedly", Mark Waid, because he knows Superman like few others. And he's been the company man when it comes to the Legion ,since, well pretty much his entire Legion career has been towing the company line.
Click Here For A Spoiler Somehow, the happy ending(read no deaths), the marriage prediction come true...I just sense Waid's presence here.
quote: Click Here For A Spoiler
So you're saying there is no resolution to the Projectra plot? She just nearly kills Tinya, scrambles Imra's brain, and sends Brin away -- and none of that is addressed? I suspect TPTB were concerned that the outcome of Shooter's run would have messed up Lo3W (especially if they killed a character), so they rewrote Shooter's original story. Hence, the pseudonym for the writer.
That's exactly what we are saying. But you know...it may actually have been a necessity because of LO3W, not just an insurance policy.
[ January 28, 2009, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Posted by Superboy on :
You know now that I think about it...the end result is kind of sinister even though I don't think it was intentional.
Click Here For A SpoilerSince the Destroyers were soulless because they uploaded their conciousness into their selfmade VR and their physical forms died...that means the 7 Legionnaires(and Dream Girl) that went into the VR and had their physical bodies destroyed are now soulless as well. Unless Brainy can clone souls.
[ January 28, 2009, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Posted by Sir Tim Drake on :
I don't so much mind that Shooter chose not to write this issue -- in fact, I applaud him for not wanting to write the story on DiDio's terms.
However, I wish DC had had the decency to tell us that this comic book didn't match its solicitation.
I have bought almost 10,000 comics over the past two decades, and this is the first time I've ever wanted to return a comic book for a refund.
Posted by Superboy on :
quote:Originally posted by Semi Transparent Fellow: Sounds like Shooter and Manapul told DC to f-off and went on strike. Don't blame them, really.
I don't know if Shooter will be doing more DC work but Francis is a DC exclusive and is working on several projects for them:
To bad I didn't read this first because I bought 4 issues with the plan to get them signed by Jim Shooter at the NYC Comic Con next weekend ... well that was a waste of money ...
it's the worst Legion story I've ever read and an absolutely horrible way of ending this run ...
the Shooter legecy deserves better ... like this run or not there is no excuse for this and I don't blame Shooter for not putting his name to it ... DC has shafted LSH fans once again!
Posted by Superboy on :
quote:Originally posted by Sir Tim Drake: I don't so much mind that Shooter chose not to write this issue -- in fact, I applaud him for not wanting to write the story on DiDio's terms.
However, I wish DC had had the decency to tell us that this comic book didn't match its solicitation.
I have bought almost 10,000 comics over the past two decades, and this is the first time I've ever wanted to return a comic book for a refund.
It's extremely unprofessional...unfortunately I am used to it with the Legion to the point that it doesn't even faze me anymore...
It's not like the Reboot, 5YG or even Pre-Crisis Legions were given proper sendoffs either. The Reboot was unceremoniously erased by the guy who created it and was even handling the 3boot.
Posted by Exnihil on :
quote:Originally posted by Sir Tim Drake: I don't so much mind that Shooter chose not to write this issue -- in fact, I applaud him for not wanting to write the story on DiDio's terms.
I wonder whether that even was the case, or whether Shooter did write a story that was pulled after his "come clean" interview a couple of months back.
Either way, I am just disgusted at the way this was handled. It was an absolute bait and switch.
Posted by Ricardo on :
I have no words for what this junk means. The only thing that makes me glad is how right I was from the beginning on the hack job TPTB were doing to Shooter and Manapul's run. I doubt Mark Waid would do such a crappy stuff (for one, he is not a DC employee anymore, and he would come back to be a wirter for Superman, his dream job, not to be Justin Thyme). I'd say it is someone so ashamed of doing this thing he wasn't man/woman enough to put his name on the cover. So I don't really care who wrote this because DC was too coward to admit and apologize for this mess.
Posted by Sir Tim Drake on :
To add insult to injury, this issue is a crummy, rushed, poorly written, illogical piece of hackwork. Given the very high expectations I had for this issue, I have to say it probably is the worst Legion story ever.
I hope no one needs any further proof that DC doesn't give a shit about its customers.
Posted by Disaster Boy on :
hmm. i flipped through it. solely because it was the last issue of this boot. i wish they would've done a kicknass 12 or 24 issue elseworlds and left it at that rather than this trailing off.
Posted by veryvery on :
edit: DISREGARD THAT, I AM BAD AT READING.
but no, manapul did not tell dc to f-off, he's got a lot of stuff lined up with DC <3 recently announced superman/batman 2 parter, for example, and he did the origins and omens thing in action comics 0 next week
Posted by Superboy on :
quote:Originally posted by Ricardo: I doubt Mark Waid would do such a crappy stuff (for one, he is not a DC employee anymore, and he would come back to be a wirter for Superman, his dream job, not to be Justin Thyme). I'd say it is someone so ashamed of doing this thing he wasn't man/woman enough to put his name on the cover. So I don't really care who wrote this because DC was too coward to admit and apologize for this mess.
No offense, but every other time in Legion history something like this has happened...Mark Waid has been a part of it. He has been the hatchet man on the outgoing version of the Legion, every time it's been hatcheted. Even if all he was there for was the hatcheting.
IMHO...this is freaking Shakespeare compared to the Zero Hour hatcheting, and I didn't even like the 5YG.
And while it's no longer his dream job...it is his pet, just like we go to the vet when it's our pets time to go, Mark Waid always seem to be around somewhere when a Legion dies. He calms it while they give it the injection, tries to make the transition smoother so to speak. And he is the foremost Legion expert in the industry. And Waid didn't leave DC because he wanted to(and neither did Jim Shooter), they stopped giving him assignments...or so I heard(he didn't willingly leave the Brave and the Bold). Mark Waid would love to get more assignments from DC, I'm sure...and so would Jim Shooter. It's much more important to them than whether or not this version of the Legion gets hacheted IMHO...if it was that important to them they'd have never been a part of it in the first place.
[ January 28, 2009, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Posted by veryvery on :
ok i only bought this because i thought cos was going to be in it and that manapul was drawing it... just flipping through... wowwww....
this is the sound of a train wreck, and then another train wreck falls through time and mid air to land on THAT trainwreck. i'm breathless. i'm having a hard time getting through it... that's how bad the art is...man i'll check back in after pushing this into my brain.
Posted by stephbarton on :
This SUCKS! Ugh, they didnt' let Shooter even TRY to finish his run, they cut the run short for a Legion title that isn't even half-way out of the gate, and then they don't even give us the real issue 50?
Man, that is ridiculous. Well, I'll still check this out, but this is just...just...disappointing. I loved issue 49 and was really looking forward to see the threeboot at least end on a high note, but seems like we can't even get that.
Posted by Disaster Boy on :
this and final crisis are really making me wonder about DC. i guess the still got my money for legion of three worlds.
Posted by Superboy on :
quote:Originally posted by stephbarton: This SUCKS! Ugh, they didnt' let Shooter even TRY to finish his run, they cut the run short for a Legion title that isn't even half-way out of the gate, and then they don't even give us the real issue 50?
Man, that is ridiculous. Well, I'll still check this out, but this is just...just...disappointing. I loved issue 49 and was really looking forward to see the threeboot at least end on a high note, but seems like we can't even get that.
All you need to know is:
Click Here For A SpoilerLyle hands Brainy a CD Rom to program in the alterations to his avatar for upload to the 4 dimensional immortal evil virtual reality dimension whose inhabitatns are on the verge of extinguishing all life in the Universe.
A CD Rom. I kid you not.
And oh yeah, Lightning Lad reacts to Dream Girl's return from the dead(not to mention the destruction of his own physical body) like the entire thing was Chameleon's latest practical joke. It was just like out of the Silver Age. Resurrection and being rendered soulless...all in a fun days work in the Legion. *Ha Ha Ha*
IMHO, only a great writer could be this bad intentionally.
[ January 28, 2009, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Posted by veryvery on :
i can't breathe. oh my god. that was hilarious. oh my god. that was horrific.
ohhh god. wow. just, wow.
haha. i guess i'm glad for the happy ending, as amazing and nonsensical all that was... i didn't read the last two issues but... wow, it felt like i didn't need to at all.
i wonder how close this is to shooter's intended ending. i mean, that MUST be what the meance was and their motive, right? because... they DID have "data ripper" things... and they WERE called that since the beginning so i wouldn't put all the blame for this in poor "last minute writer" person's hands. (also, the idea that mark waid wrote this is crazy. his name sells and if he wrote it they would put it on the cover, guys. just cuz you don't like him means he wrote it hahaha wow).
likely suspect: a couple editors. that's who usually has to do stuff like that.
at least no one was raped ! and dream girl came back.
hahaha oh god.
Posted by veryvery on :
superboy, that's the best summary ever.
Posted by rouge on :
Wow, that was bad.
What's even worse is for some reason I kept thinking about Ricardo while reading it. I even turned to my wife at one point and said "You know, there's this guy online whose head is going to explode when he sees this."
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
WHAT THA HOLY FRIGGIN 7 LEVELS OF FECAL MATTER BUTT DRIPPIN SLEAZEMONKEY HELL WAS THIS INCREDIBLE PIECE OF COWTURD BATEXCREMENT TOECHEESE SHITE WHAS THIS!
IT JUST...
SHOOTER HAD A DECENT RUN GOING, NOT THE GREATEST BUT DECENT AND DC BASICALLY TOOK THIS TO THE TOILET AND USED IT TO WIPE THEIR HAIRY A....
I'VE TRIED TO BE DECENT ABOUT DC AND DIDIO, BUT THIS RANCID DIAREHHA FROM AN INCONTINENT CAMEL DESERVES TO BE BE SENT BACK TO THEM AFTER PASSING THROUGH THE ANAL CLEFT OF A RABID YAK!
I've seen better writing from a third grader that ate his own boogers and spit on the page!
Posted by Ricardo on :
DC simply lied everything about this issue. Everything. It was supposed to be a special 30 page wrap-up. Shooter had it done. I have no idea who that artist is (he probably has the same skills I have. Page 2 makes me almost puke: characters are all out of anything related to perspective and proportion. What is Saturn Girl doing there? Some special yogi thing? Then, on the other page, the whole concept Shooter created is "redone" to see fit to a completely different thing. I'll return as I finish the whole thing, but so far, it is probably one of the worst books I've ever read. And I thought this kind of attitude from DC was forgotten in the mid-70s... Way to go, Didio!
EDIT: the story is awful. It's probably the worst written book since Green Lantern #48. Or Dan Vado's Justice League. Or Beau Smith's Warrior. But it is worse than that because it is more than just the plot: the whole dialogue is trite. What is that super-tough Invisible Kid on page 6? Or Brainy on page 15? The book reduced everything to a Click Here For A Spoilermonster invasion! What the hell happened on page 16? Click Here For A SpoilerIs it that Lyle became the super 10-year-old?
And that ending... oh, don't get me started. It is unfortunate that I am in Brazil, but I'd return it to DC for false advertising and for doing what they did. I hope to see some backlash on Didio SOON through Newsarama and CBR.
[ January 28, 2009, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: Ricardo ]
Posted by veryvery on :
oh god i'm still giggling about how bad this was...the cd...
i wonder if they kicked him off after that interview... since, yes by that interview, it seemed like it was written, yes? or maybe we were reading it wrong and he was kicked off BEFORE finishing issue 50? any ideas?
i was expecting some sort of tie in to LO3W/the new legion or something....
as for the solicit, ricardo, dude, it's not like they can foretell the future. stuff happens. i don't think dc intentionally meant to mislead its readers. those solicits come out very far in advance, i don't know if we've had this dicussion before but that's diamond's need for a billion years in the future solicits, and everyone is diamond's bitch :/ when i did write ups for solicits they were really far in advance, even though we were a tiny company. they HAVE to be.
i'm really surprised by this, i guess they thought L03W would be on time and wanted to end it at this time. otherwise i'd think they'd push the deadline back, you know? but i think didio is trying to have books on time where he can. i guess l03w is the bigger/much more complicated/important thing so more time was given to it...
since we're throwing out theories...
the people that feel like shooter's being horrifically dishonored, i think you're missing ANOTHER possibility here: that what was originally planned might have been something really. really. really bad. because guys. think about it. THIS...replaced whatever shooter made. REPLACED. maybe there was some editorial decision made here, guys, where they thought THIS was a better idea/solution than SOMETHING ELSE that was already going on.
Another, very obvious possibility: i think most of this would have probably happened in shooter's version, but this was a more condensed version of it. this smells a lot like #47. read them side by side, i don't think it's that far off from shooter's version.
man. what a disaster. either way, too many cooks in the kitchen never make a good book.
gazelle's codename should be changed to "hedgehog".
Posted by Sir Tim Drake on :
quote:Originally posted by veryvery: the people that feel like shooter's being horrifically dishonored, i think you're missing ANOTHER possibility here: that what was originally planned might have been something really. really. really bad. because guys. think about it. THIS...replaced whatever shooter made. REPLACED. maybe there was some editorial decision made here, guys, where they thought THIS was a better idea/solution than SOMETHING ELSE that was already going on.
That is not possible. NOTHING could have been worse than this issue.
Posted by veryvery on :
did you READ #47?!!
Posted by Ricardo on :
veryvery
Sorry, but Shooter cannot do something as bad as this is. It's just that even when he was 13 years old, he wrote better than this. It's just that simple. Two: you can open DC site and it is STILL there: written by Shooter, art by Manapul. So, technically, it wasn't really well-planned. I'd go with the idea that Shooter's plans would "jeopardize" L3W (that awesome book about... Green Lantern and Superboy-Prime) and thus, since Shooter is a pro, but not spineless, he refused to do so much changing. Then comes who ever was walking on DC hallways to write that thing. It was probably the janitor.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Very, i have to disagree. I do think that the basic elements of Shooter's story were used, and possibly even some of what he wrote, but...
Its obvious that a lot was changed to drop the story from 30 pages to 22. It's obvious that there was a cut and paste effort here, and that if shooters stuff was used quite a bit of what he did was jettisoned, and therefore the basic story suffered. I will say that shooter probably wrote the basic storyline, but that someone somewhere did a hatchet job on it, and it shows.
And given that many of us bought the book even though it was a reboot we disliked, and that many of us were in fact enjoying what shooter was doing on a horrible restart, this was an insult to us, the customers.
I could have stood a five page narrative wrapup, a casefile telling the epic conclusion of the story and then the other items that the solicite stated, like a return of Cos, better than this horrible junk.
I can see a simple framing sequence, someone from the group that Waid Kitson used telling the story of the legion beating the data ripper creatures. The rest of the book could have been tying up loose ends. That would have worked much better. I wouldn't have liked it, but i could have understood it. This left out nearly everything from the run.
Posted by veryvery on :
oh wait. this looks much better to me now that i finished final crisis. oh my god. superman just Click Here For A Spoilerkilled darkseid by singing at him. maybe. i'm pretty sure
i feel faint. i'm going to go drink heavily and wait for this to pass.
NEXT WEEK ADVENTURE COMICS!! this was bad but...maybe manapul was saving up all his powers for that back up story!! let's look forward to hte future. use alcohol to help!
Posted by Blacula on :
Wow. I'm no fan of the threeboot but if it has indeed ended in the way you guys & gals describe then that is some seriously messed up s**t.
I feel really bad for all those people who were actually enjoying this run.
I definitely think you should kick up a stink about it too. Write to Newsarama. Write to CBR. Get your complaints heard. And get an explanation from Didio. If one of you can get a resignation letter from him too then I'll buy you a banyo fruit milkshake!
I haven't seen the art yet and though I'm sure it is probably as terrible as you all say, I think maybe we should go easy on the poor man/lady. It was probably a very rushed assignment for them too and not a true indicator of their talent (I hope).
Posted by Arm Fall Off Boy on :
...
I'm really stunned. I took one look at the wraparound cover and it was pretty striking. Then I took another look and saw "FINAL ISSUE!" It was like THE LAST ONE, YOU PATHETIC LEGION GEEKS!! WE KNOW YOU'LL BUY IT!! Seriously, how proud was DC to end this??
Page 1-With Garth's build up, I expected to see an innumerable crowd of Legionnaire wannabe's from the early part of this Threeboot, and then, I TURNED THE PAGE AND...
6 people pictured. What a letdown.
It actually took me to page 2 to realize it wasn't FJM on the art. The minute I saw the 6 people I realized-somebody can't draw crowds. Francis?? No. I saw Saturn Girl, and I went, "What the heck?!?!" The rest were passable, and I have to say though, it was better than #47, but so are most kindergarteners' art attempts. I didn't even notice the "Justin Thyme" credit.
The best art in the book was actually the NY ComicCon ad after page 5.
Speaking of the artist, he really likes to draw Saturn Girl's boobs. Just glance over them throughout. They're HUGE.
Honestly, the story itself. We now know why last issue was good-it was Jim Shooter going out with a bang. Honestly, I believe it was his massively detailed layouts/script. Then someone else came in and tweaked it, but just enough to where he couldn't begiven, or wouldn't want, credit. It was just rushed enough and confusing enough, but Brainy actually sounded like Brainy, as did some of the others.
Gazelle worshipping Invisible Kid? What is that all about? And when did she use any of her power? For that matter, what about Saturn Girl? How worthless was she? I had to get all the way to the end and more "What the Heck?" moments. Phantom Girl is suddenly peachy keen fine; The "One Evil" Princess was nowhere to be found; No T-Wolf; and throughout, Chameleon has antennae, which has been established in 3boot to only be when he encounters a new life form or shape to copy. Somebody didn't do their homework.
No Cos. Nobody died-good, but a lie. Every Legionnaire! I think I found my "Lies! All Lies! lie for today."
I think I would have preferred a white out.
Bad, very, bad, and very unsatisfying.
Count me in on the DC backlash. What a disappointment.
Posted by reckless on :
Why can't Shooter have a blog where he could reveal what really happened with this issue? That is a story I would love to read.
My guess is that he turned in a script that contained everything the solicit mentioned (as well as wrapped up the Projectra storyline). But that script may even have been what he planned for the original length Shooter intended. Then, Didio decided to condense everything, and had his hacks condense it into a single issue and come up with an alternative explanation for the Destroyers, because there sure was no way to do give them their full due in a single issue. I suspect some of the general ideas were Shooter's -- who the Destroyers are, how Brainy finds a way to "upload" some of the Legion, and how he brings them and Nura back to life -- but I doubt they removety reflect his vision for the story. (As I mentioned regarding 49, it seemed to me that the story was set up for a "hunt for Timber Wolf" plot ala S/LSH 239 -- with Projectra's attack on Tinya mimicking Brin's style, Projectra sending Brin away, and the other Legionnaires speculating that the missing Brin was the attacker -- but that got dropped with Tinya's "I fell" memory. I could see Shooter accepting that change and leaving his name on the script, but then removing his name when he saw how bastardized the final version of No. 50 became.)
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
Wow. I'm stunned and haven't even seen the issue yet. I don't think there's ever been such a unanimously condemned issue of the Legion.
It probably would have been better to just leave it all hanging with #49, and let the fans make up their own endings.
I also would like to read how Shooter intended - originally - for the story to play out.
Maybe I'll scan my issue, copy it to a CD-ROM and send it to DC. Or send it back shredded. Assuming it's as bad as everyone says.
Posted by future king on :
WTF??? What happened? Is this some sort of DC joke? I just picked up my copy yesterday but didn't get around to reading it until late last night... boy was I unpleasantly surprised!
I feel cheated and insulted, plain and simple. Shame on you Dan Didio and Paul Levitz as well (he is his boss after all) for letting this garbage make its way to the news stands/comic shops everywhere. Are we supposed to just take this? Is this how we are rewarded for staying with a title for 50 issues? THIS is how the DC senior staff caps off a 50th anniversary of a beloved franchise? Well I am very dissapointed, as well as everyone on this website. We got screwed over at the very last minute and didn't even see it coming. It was all kept hush-hush on purpose, just to make it sting all that much more I guess. This is truly what DiDio feels about the Legion, the fans, and the history of this great team in general ... there we have it folks, in the form of this lousy last issue. We didn't even get the decency of watching Shooter and Francis finish off their run on the title. Instead we get a "Justin Tyme" cowardly writer to spew garbage for 22 pages (instead of the promised 30) and a pathetic first year art student to draw this what should have been the comic of the year (with all the 50th anniversary anticipation)! Talk about spitting on all your loyal fans!
I am beside myself, I don't know what else to say...... Is there a chance that we will see a Shooter-written version in the future? One where everything promised in the solicits see the light of day? The Projectra arc, the death of a long-time Legionnaire, and the return of Cosmic Boy? Who knows? This can't be the last word can it??
The only plus was returning Dream Girl to life, although even with that I would have preferred for her to return with no memory prior to that wall falling on her and killing her. Instead we get a Nura who's in love with Brainy (huh?) and ready to get married! WTF????
I've said enough. I'm tired of everything. I don't even think its worth buying the last few issues of LO3W at this point as I don't want to be let down again. It can't happen for me. I like this franchise way too much to watch it dissolve the way DC seems to be stearing it to that end.
What an irresponsible way to run a comic business Mr. Didio and Mr. Levitz. Shame on you both.
Fini
Posted by Matthew E on :
I bet I know what happened.
But I don't want to speculate until I've read the comic, which won't be until this weekend. If I still think I'm right I'll mention it in my review on Legion Abstract.
Posted by jimgallagher on :
What utter crap! You all have been too kind in my opinion. I didn't even recognize Gazelle in her first panel appearance and she looks like a fricking Peanuts character in a few panels. And Lyle looks like he's about 8 years old! I was still thinking he was the doomed Legionnaire until the very last panel, because he doesn't appear among the other revived members. And the monsters looked like some grade school kid drew them.
If DC was going to rewrite the story, they should've at least rewritten the solicit on their site to match. What a blatant case of false advertising!
I want Didio's resignation now! And anybody else's who was involved in this drek.
Posted by Lad Boy on :
I could not make it to the CBS yesterday. So, the conclusion of this Legion era awaits me there today. I have some sympathy for comics industry professionals. It's a tough economy and comics purchases are easy for consumers to give up -- between online piracy and the probability of a favorite title being published in trade a few months down the road.
That said, my sympathy does not extend to the inept. It is precisely because of the tough sales economy that repeated editorial and marketing mistakes are unacceptable. This title, the entire Legion franchise, has been riddled with them.
Waid authors a reboot, but is so busy with 52 that his writing loses its focus.
A reasonably good cartoon is launched, with a marginally good Johnny DC title. Happy meal toys(generally only effective for marketing to pre-readers) are obsolete by the time they are released because of changes in the cartoon, and the Johnny DC title never gets in synch with the cartoon. Nor does the cartoon seem informed by any Legion continuity. Who the hell is Kel-El?
After Waid and Kitson's departure, the main title sputters inconsistently, losing almost all but hard-core Legion fans.
The Legion appears in a live action broadcast - Smallville - at precisely the low point of the main comics existence: a hastily assembled cancellation issue and the perpetually delayed Lo3W - a major Legion tie-in to a purported once-a-decade crossover event that is so late it has become irrelevant.
The Legion's appearance in a JLA/JSA crossover is a headscratcher and a little bit of a disappointment, but all things considered one of the bright spots of the past 5 years.
I may have to change comic book stores next month, because I can't see keeping enough titles to meet my current store subscription box minimum.
The threeboot Legion got me buy comics after a 15 year hiatus. Maybe it's just time for me to move on and start re-reading Shakespeare and Chaucer.
Posted by KryptonKid on :
I haven't read this yet. I have the curse of someone loyal enough to subscribe, which means I get every issue three weeks after everyone else. I fact, my copy of #49 arived two days ago. Anyway, DC still hasn't changed its description on the solicitations. Are they just blatently thumbing their noses at us?
Posted by the Maritimer on :
Words cannot express how disappointed I am.
When I saw the credits, I knew something was up. As most everyone here has said, it was a complete and utter rip off. This series ended at #49. I will never open #50 again unless I become senile and forget what it was about.
I wish I could email DC Comics to voice my displeasure, but they have no address I can find to send one to.
I have followed this series since the early 60's and have never felt this betrayed, not even after Zero Hour. I can't believe Paul Levitz let this sham go through. Paul, if you come to this site as an occasional reader, please do something to correct this.
Unless this is addressed somehow in Lo3W, we have all been had.
Dan Didio owes the Legion fan community a big explanation and/or an apology. I HOPE he is man enough to step forward in the very near future to do so.
Posted by jimgallagher on :
What really kills me is this crap was produced at the close of the Legion's 50th anniversary year! What a slap in the face to the Legion and its fans!
I want somebody's head on a pike.
Posted by Tromium on :
I believe Legion #50 was ghost-rewritten by some Didio peon to serve the purposes of Legion of 3 Worlds, which itself has been rewritten (the delays are due to radical story revisions, not late art).
Theory: Now Legion #50 takes place *before* LO3W -- the 3boot team was originally snatched from their reality sometime between #37 and #44 -- thus ensuring that the 3boot team meets its final fate in LO3W instead of their own series.
[ January 29, 2009, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: Tromium ]
Posted by Sir Tim Drake on :
I called my LCS and the owner told me that I could return the issue for store credit. If you were duped into buying this issue, you should call your store owner and see if you can do likewise.
Posted by rouge on :
quote:Originally posted by Tromium: I believe Legion #50 was ghost-rewritten by some Didio peon to serve the purposes of Legion of 3 Worlds, which itself has been rewritten (the delays are due to radical story revisions, not late art).
Theory: Now Legion #50 takes place *before* LO3W -- the 3boot team was originally snatched from their reality sometime between #37 and #44 -- thus ensuring that the 3boot team meets its final fate in LO3W instead of their own series.
I think there may be something to that. If the Princess goes over to Prime's team, I guess we'll know for sure.
Posted by stephbarton on :
Dan DiDio DC Comics 1700 Broadway New York, NY 10019
Don't just say it here guys (and gals) write a letter. I know I will (and I don't even have the issue yet, so I will wait until I've read it in my LCS, to decide if I want to buy it or not...)
But the sheer unprofessionalism of this stunt is pretty disgusting. Bad move on DC's part and I will let them know.
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
I
LOVE IT!!!
It was the perfect second (maybe third) part of a 1960's ADV Legion issue.
There were, cute aliens and and flying saucers and blasters!!! There were pretty girls who loved their guys and well just EVERYTHING!!!
That old mean Lafong got just what she deserved.
I was SOoooo scared when those monsters were tearing up the bodies and Brainy was just laying there...dead. But Brainy, he recoverd somehow in time to save the day, just like always.
You old farts looking for plots and stuff just wouldn't get it.
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
ps: The art, I really did like the art. I realize a new artist coming in would have difficulty with the more familiar to us characters but I thought those serviceable and everything else I thought expressive and other-worldly, and of course the coloring held true.
The cover was as awesome as I expected it to be from solicits so hopefully that held to everyone's expectations.
Posted by Acid Digestion Lad on :
Ya know I read a bit of it online and..just...Enh, it was really a let down especially because i was hoping for what we were proimsed. Granted I knew what I was getting into reading the spoilers here but still >_< It kinda bugged me.
Posted by stuorstew on :
For me the worse part was not even in the main story. It was in the next issue box which says:
We greatly appreciate the support of our loyal readers!
If this is how they reward loyalty I would hate to see what they do to everybody else!
Posted by Bevis on :
I've just seen the key pages on scans daily.
I for one am not even going to think about paying a penny for that insult to the intelligence. The writing is awful, the plotting bears almost no relevance to what's gone before and the art is shockingly bad, even if it were rushed (which it clearly was) there is no excuse for DC to release something as appalingly bad as this. It's an insult to the buying public. Even if it weren't the last issue of a series it would be a complete slap in the face to readers. As a final issue it's just a complete indication that the high ups at DC don't give a toss about the characters, the current creators or the Legion fans.
Posted by perezflo246 on :
I SHALL SAY THAT FINAL ISSUE.REALLY STUNK .THE WORST WRITTEN & DRAWN COMIC OF MY LIFETIME.YOU SHOULD ALL BE ASHAMED TO END IT THAT WAY. JUST COMPLETE JUNK.
Posted by Tromium on :
The only thing Didio has accomplished by his latest act of fraud is to confound, enrage and alienate fans more than ever before, and eliminate any chance the Johnsboot mock-original LSH ever had of being accepted as the definitive Legion. By screwing Shooter, he also screwed himself, Geoff Johns and the very future of the franchise.
Posted by Matthew E on :
quote:Originally posted by Tromium: The only thing Didio has accomplished by his latest act of fraud is to confound, enrage and alienate fans more than ever before, and eliminate any chance the Johnsboot mock-original LSH ever had of being accepted as the definitive Legion. By screwing Shooter, he also screwed himself, Geoff Johns and the very future of the franchise.
How do you figure? I mean, I'm in no position to either criticize or defend, not having read the comic yet, but I don't see how LSH v5 #50 reflects on Johns's retroboot at all. What's the connection?
Posted by insanelad on :
dilemma: I trust all of your opinions, and if you say this issue is a huge steaming pile of poorly-digested manure, I believe you.
... but ( and I cringe as I type this), is it bad that I still want to buy it so I have a complete run of the sreies? After reding all yoru comments, I don't think it'd be even worth reading it, if only to experience the horror and revulsion for myself. I liek the suggestionthat the series ended with 49 and we make up our own ending.
This whole think reeks. What about rewarding fans, let alone customers? What about having pride in a quality product?
My conspiracy theory: they knocked out a deliberately bad issue to wipe 3Boot from everyone's memory so that the Post-Crisis Legion can swoop in, save the day and claim to have been the 'real' Legion all along and that the other versions were inferior multiverse copies. Oh, wat a shame, they're dead, we'll make nice statues out of them and get back to the business of being Superman's wacky future chums.
DC - go and die in a hole somewhere. Where are my copies of the X-Men?
Posted by Rockhopper Lad on :
Rocky's putting on his philosophical hat now.
I won't be able to get to the CBS till Saturday. I'll buy it and read it. I probably won't like it.
The Legion will return. It has one of the most loyal cult followings in all of pop culture, let alone comics. Sometimes it will be good, sometimes not.
As for DiDio, Time Warner, DC's parent company is a for-profit business. Clearly, if his editorial policies are alienating fans and causing dropping sales, eventually they'll give him the old heave-ho.
Having to wait patiently for these things to come to pass stinks, I realize, but what choice have we?
Meantime, we still have 50 years worth of Legion stories to enjoy and re-enjoy and this wonderful online community to sustain us.
Can I get a Long Live the Legion?
Posted by insanelad on :
Long Live the Legion!
Posted by Superboy on :
quote:Originally posted by insanelad: dilemma:
... but ( and I cringe as I type this), is it bad that I still want to buy it so I have a complete run of the sreies? After reding all yoru comments, I don't think it'd be even worth reading it, if only to experience the horror and revulsion for myself. I liek the suggestionthat the series ended with 49 and we make up our own ending.
This whole think reeks. What about rewarding fans, let alone customers? What about having pride in a quality product?
My conspiracy theory: they knocked out a deliberately bad issue to wipe 3Boot from everyone's memory so that the Post-Crisis Legion can swoop in, save the day and claim to have been the 'real' Legion all along and that the other versions were inferior multiverse copies. Oh, wat a shame, they're dead, we'll make nice statues out of them and get back to the business of being Superman's wacky future chums.
DC - go and die in a hole somewhere. Where are my copies of the X-Men?
This is going to be the most talked about and remembered issue of this entire run...for decades.
LSH #50, an issue that will live in infamny.
And just who was Justin Thyme? More than just an inker at Marvel? A writer too?
I still stand by my comments that it takes a great deal of talent to write something this bad. There just aren't that many modern writers capable of stepping into the Silver Age like that.
Most of the guys in the industry today are incapable of anything beyond a bad Frank Miller impersonation.
So pulling off a Silver Age story, and stabbing Legion fans in the hearts, while simultaneously making it appear to be a passable story that will get by DC editorial and fufill the edicts of the re-write..
This definitely was not written by a hack though it is a piece of hacking IMHO. It was deliberately bad.
And for some reason I just get the impression that the writer had an evil grin on his face as he typed the final words.
Posted by insanelad on :
so why nake it deliberately bad? What do they stand to gain from it?
Do they think that by making this versionof the Legion bad it will legitimise any version that comes after it? Seems like a longshot as it leaves such a bitter taste in the mouth of any Legion fan, and a non fan will probably be thinking 'wtf?' and be turned off the whole concept.
Also, doe sit seem a bit odd to do this when L.E.G.I.O.N. is being relaunched?
really, really strange. Maybe the whole of DC is on acid and this seemd like a good idea at the time?
Posted by insanelad on :
apologies for very bad typing skills
Posted by Superboy on :
quote:Originally posted by insanelad: so why nake it deliberately bad? What do they stand to gain from it?
Do they think that by making this versionof the Legion bad it will legitimise any version that comes after it? Seems like a longshot as it leaves such a bitter taste in the mouth of any Legion fan, and a non fan will probably be thinking 'wtf?' and be turned off the whole concept.
Also, doe sit seem a bit odd to do this when L.E.G.I.O.N. is being relaunched?
really, really strange. Maybe the whole of DC is on acid and this seemd like a good idea at the time?
Could be the writer had some kind of axe to grind either with DC or the Fans.
I don't think Didio said, make this incredibly bad and alienate the fans.
I think he probably said something like, this and this have to be changed and the writer either thought that was a stupid idea and wrote the story in such a way to exploit the flaws in the request, and deliberately make Didio look bad while still technicially fulling the request(I could see Shooter doing this one easily). Or, he was just plain old sick of the Legion Fans and Didio said, look the fans hate this run so just give it a happy ending and tie up the main loose ends relevant to L03W, and the writer perhaps denfranchised with past Legion writing experiences said, you know, they're gonna hate no matter what we do, they already do, and the writer possibly is tired of hearing complaints by the Legion Fans and decided to pour some salt in the wounds behind the curtain of anonymity, just to prove his point.
This may come as a surprise to my Legion brethren, but we aren't exactly the easiest fan base to please.
Waid figured his departure would be celebrated...
Bedard I think made some sort of statement that no matter what you do, a segment of Legion fans is going to despise you.
And while Shooter was pretty concenred with fan reaction to this run he got roasted on this forum with regularity.
Giffen was the first roastee...
The segment that is going to dislike Geoff Johns' run is already pretty apparent.
The thing is, while it's definitely DC's fault, they started scrwing with the book 20 years ago and created these fragmentations, they aren't the one suffering really, we are.
But one thing I can easily see...the sales figures, the discontended fans, the continuity hassles, the legal hassles, the fact that the art requirements for this book make mincemeat of most artists...
The Legion, at least as it has been for the past 20 years, is clearly more of a headache than it is worth based on the returns it gets.
And it is all DC's fault, they were the ones who paved paradise and put up a parking lot.
I do expect them to issue some sort of apology, but really they aren't that worried about it impacting sales of future Legion projects IMHO. If anyone is worried about it...it probably is Didio, but he's the net whipping boy/scapegoat over much bigger things as well.
Anyone in the know of how the Legion works is probably not that worried
For instance Tromium predicts a backlash all the way to LO3W...Well, 20k fans read this book monthly, 60k read LO3W. If all 20k fans cease to buy L03W because of this, they still have a Legion title that sells @40k, twice as much as this current Legion title.
I wish the Legion fans worked the way Tromium predicts, but I've wished that for a long time and it's just not true in my experience. DC could relaunch this same Legion next month with Justin Thyme as the writer, and it would still sell about that 20-25k level. Sometimes a little lower, sometimes a little higher, but basically right there.
[ January 29, 2009, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Posted by Superboy on :
Just out of curiosity...
What would be the reaction of Legion fans if it were to turn out that Jim Shooter wrote this story and deliberately wrote it in such a way to piss off the fans and make Didio look bad?
Who is the villain then?
Because there is a very good chance that is exactly what happened and Shooter is one of the few capable of nailing the Silver Age style to a T, while simultaneously being offensive and knowing just how to outrage Legion fans...all the while technically fulfilling a contractual obligation...
And I have seen that Justin Thyme name on projects before, at Marvel.
Posted by Bevis on :
I thinks it's been mentioned in the thread already, but Justin Thyme is the comics equivalent of Alan Smithee in films in that it's the generic name used if a creator wants their name taken off a book. It could be almost anyone, including Shooter.
If it is Shooter then he deserves to be villified for writing such a pile of rubbish but that doesn't excuse editorial letting it pass or the art being so appaling. If the creative team walked away for whatever reason before #50 was done so DC had to rush out an issue to fulfil the solicit then they should just have delayed it a few weeks and got something at least half decent out instead.
'should' being the key word there. It's not the first time a comics company have thrown out a half-arsed rush job to meet a solicitation or to complete a story they want out of the way, but it is probably the worst example of that that I have seen.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Until i hear otherwise, i will stick with my thoughts. I think whoever did it took a hatchet to Shooters storyline, gutted it and redid it to fit a 22 page book.
Shooter has been taken to task over this run, but he was also obviously putting a lot of work into it. His ideas were futuristic and inventive, he had a clear direction. I think if DC had given us the other four issues, it would have been a fine wrap.
I have all ideas that someone was told to take his stuff and pare it down, and he said "enough" knowing how bad it would be. Or, they had a contract with him and he was forced to do the cuts, but respected his name, the fans, and the book to much to want to be associated with it. I don't think that he would have stabbed those that were supporting what he was trying to do in the back.
As to the art...i haven't said and wont say anything bad about it because it looks like the artist had to do a rush job to get it out after Manipal left. Thats one heck of a tough thing to do.
Thats just the way i see it. I could be completely wrong, however.
Posted by the Maritimer on :
There is NO WAY on God's green earth that Jim Shooter had anything to do with that pile of steaming dung!
As the gentleman above said, someone distilled Shooter's finale to the bare elements and finished it off.
I can't believe Paul Levitz let that go through. He obviously didn't see it before hand.
If Didio didn't want Shooter's version to see the light of day, then he should have had the common decency and some courtesy to Legion fans to allow someone the time to tie up the loose ends and get some artist with more qualifications to render that story.
Thanks to the poster for the address to DC, but I'm going over DiDio's head and writing to Mr. Levitz.
Posted by Mr. Kayak on :
quote:Originally posted by Superboy: Just out of curiosity...
What would be the reaction of Legion fans if it were to turn out that Jim Shooter wrote this story and deliberately wrote it in such a way to piss off the fans and make Didio look bad?
i don't think a man and a pro like jim shooter would EVER do something like that. besides, shooter knows too well what it means to "work for the team" and just do as your company says. i'm starting to believe he was just treated badly as a person, or at least that he felt so.
quote:Originally posted by rickshaw1: Until i hear otherwise, i will stick with my thoughts. I think whoever did it took a hatchet to Shooters storyline, gutted it and redid it to fit a 22 page book.
i agree. i just don't understand why they didn't let shooter himself write the book. maybe he was so pissed off he just left in anger.
anyway, i'm too happy for this series to be over. i hated the 3boot with all of myself and now i feel like a nightmare is over (i know it can sound like i'm overreacting, but the legion is my favourite comic franchise ever!). i'm sorry for jim shooter, though, who i still like very much as a writer.
Posted by fjm on :
hey guys and gals I just wanted to chime in here and hopefully clear up a couple of things. I'll try to choose my words very carefully so it can't be misconstrued into something else entirely. I wished I had been able to say something about the last issue sooner but it's not my place to do so. But I will tell you all that we were not pushed off the book. We chose to leave, both for entirely different reasons. I'm not going to claim to know why Jim left, I'm sure he had his reasons. As for why I left, plain and simple, new opportunities arose for me which demanded my immediate attention. It was not an easy decision for me and I spent hours talking to industry friends even longer days mulling over it. I knew that a lot of people would feel let down by my abrupt departure but sometimes you just gotta pull that band aid off quickly. I came to the decision I did for many reasons both artistically and professionally. I've never felt more happy about the work I'm doing than I am now and these opportunities would not have been possible without the full support of Dan and the rest of the DC editorial staff. I realize that the situation was less than ideal but I hope you guys follow me into my upcoming projects as I think you guys will be very pleasantly surprised. Again thank you all so much for the support you guys and gals have given and hopefully I can count on you guys to continue doing so.
Posted by MLLASH on :
Well, thank space I decided to read the spoilers because I was bored....
I was all ready to avenge you all by declaring that for the first time ever, I was going to intentionally NOT buy an issue of LSH.
But then Blocks' review got me thinking. Is this a case of something being so awful that it is actually good? Is it a case of one man's "Desperate Living" being another man's "Schindler's List", or what?
I'm leaning toward it being a steaming pile I won't buy, but I'm open to other points of view.
Posted by Sketch Lad on :
I'm going to buy it. I'm quite curious after all the nasty reviews.
Sometimes, the early posters on new issue threads throw me way off, sometimes I totally agree. We'll see.
Thank you fjm, for posting. One thing I do know is that I'll miss your art on the Legion.
Posted by Mr. Kayak on :
quote:Originally posted by fjm: I hope you guys follow me into my upcoming projects
i will!
i really feel like you're getting better and better one page after another, not many pencilers out there have a "grit" like that. i was really amazed by the superman/batman pics i saw at newsarama! keep up the good work!
Posted by fjm on :
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Kayak:
quote:Originally posted by fjm: I hope you guys follow me into my upcoming projects
i will!
i really feel like you're getting better and better one page after another, not many pencilers out there have a "grit" like that. i was really amazed by the superman/batman pics i saw at newsarama! keep up the good work!
thanks Mr. Kayak! appreciate that! I've been working even longer hours trying to learn new techniques I'm glad that you're enjoying the results!
Posted by Sir Tim Drake on :
quote:Originally posted by fjm: hey guys and gals I just wanted to chime in here and hopefully clear up a couple of things. I'll try to choose my words very carefully so it can't be misconstrued into something else entirely. I wished I had been able to say something about the last issue sooner but it's not my place to do so. But I will tell you all that we were not pushed off the book. We chose to leave, both for entirely different reasons. I'm not going to claim to know why Jim left, I'm sure he had his reasons. As for why I left, plain and simple, new opportunities arose for me which demanded my immediate attention. It was not an easy decision for me and I spent hours talking to industry friends even longer days mulling over it. I knew that a lot of people would feel let down by my abrupt departure but sometimes you just gotta pull that band aid off quickly. I came to the decision I did for many reasons both artistically and professionally. I've never felt more happy about the work I'm doing than I am now and these opportunities would not have been possible without the full support of Dan and the rest of the DC editorial staff. I realize that the situation was less than ideal but I hope you guys follow me into my upcoming projects as I think you guys will be very pleasantly surprised. Again thank you all so much for the support you guys and gals have given and hopefully I can count on you guys to continue doing so.
You are a fantastic and very promising artist, and I'm very grateful to you for doing such a great job on this series.
As I think I stated above, it's not you and Jim I'm angry at; it's DC, for doing such a slapdash job with the replacement issue, and for not informing the fans that the issue wasn't going to match the solicitation.
Posted by Candle on :
Block's view WAS helpful and welcome!
I probably won't get my issue until Friday, though. sigh
I can imagine LEVITZ actually doing the rewrite, himself. I'm not saying he did, but I remember him doing something similar, changing the way the Legion, or an individual character, was going at the very last moment. Because of that, I can't believe that anything to do with the Legion 'gets by him', either.
And I think I remember when a certain editor decided that Jean couldn't kill Asparagus People without consequences and changed the course of comics, so this isn't the first time in comic history that last minute changes happened.
In the X-Men's case though, everything was written and drawn in such a way that only the last few pages had to be redone.
It sounds like fjm wasn't able to leave a finished book behind for editing.
I feel for everyone. We're all so invested in these characters. Especially we old farts.
But I really don't know how the Projectra storyline could really come to some solution in one comic. She was supposed to have KILLED Tinya! Her only Legion friend. If she could make Tinya remember it as a fall, why couldn't she do something like that BEFORE destroying her face and leaving her to die? Maybe if 4 issues but never in one.
I don't even know if the idea of a bunch of Legionnaires with no souls could end with anything but a superficial 'high' of getting married.
Brainy has done some presumptuous things in the past, but to take Legionnaires into a situation where he KNEW that their souls would be destroyed is just beyond belief.
Even if HE didn't believe in a soul, which is obviously his point of veir in this boot, how could he just ignore what the others might believe? Nura's 'soul' has been living within him for the past year of so. He just ignored that?
If I'd have been the editor, I couldn't let those implication go, unless I just let the whole thing float away in old time Legion shallowness.
Anyway, if nothing else this issue has generated some of the most interesting and wonderful comments I can remember seeing. Thanks.
Posted by Tromium on :
Francis, I wish you best of luck as well. Your contributions to the Legion have been nothing but positive.
I think the reasons Jim left were pretty well spelled out in his last interview -- DC denied him the chance to complete the story he envisioned. He couldn't even come close to resolving it as intended on such short notice. I fully respect his decision and don't blame him in the slightest for leaving it unfinished at #49. Those sad, beautiful 22 pages will stick with me for a very long time.
I don't know about anyone else but the one panel that infuriated me most in #50 was the one showing Lightning Lad with his arm around a beaming Saturn Girl, as if to say "Okay, sure, you sexually assaulted a guy in your head and I banged the President of the United Planets in the back of a limo, but that doesn't mean we can't be best pals!!" Posted by Positive Man on :
This issue was the most outrageous blow to the Legion lore EVER. Absolute cut and paste rubbish without any redeemable quality whatsoever. Even the Bedard stories or the worst issues of the reboot are better when compared to this one. I just reread the entire Shooter threeboot run (which I liked very much, much more than Waid's) and I refuse to believe he wrote it. It is, as many have said, a slap in the face of DC's customers (and if I'm old, that only means that I've spent more money with their products than it cost them to produce this drivel): Jeckie and Brin's story is left hanging, Tinya is back in action, Brainiac takes a very morally questionable course of action, nothing happens as it was described in the solicit for the issue. I gather that some elements of Jim's story were used to 'close shop' but they were obviously compressed and disrespected.
One thing is true: the idiots responsible for this trash will be long gone and this title will still exist. Long live the Legion, yes. But never mind these bollocks.
[ January 29, 2009, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: Positive Man ]
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
FJM, thanks for coming by.
Anyone in the business world understands that sometimes things happen to hamstring a person in their career, and that other times things open up to advance it, but there are usually strings attached. No one can honestly fault someone for trying to make themselves into a higher paid professional. I have no doubt that "mum's the word" was the edict. After all, you still wish to work for these people.
Please understand just how shocking it was to buy, to pay for, such a level of deception and low quality work.
I suppose one of the easiest ways to describe Legion Fan loyalty is to use the Nascar example. Some fans will actually stop using advertised products when a driver changes from one team to another, following the brand the driver now represents. Legion fans are the same. We have followed what has been given us in good times and bad.
I thought that you and Jim were doing very good work. You took a reboot that was not very well liked and while hamstrung by it, were telling very good, quality stories.
Delays happen, we the fans understand this. But there is absolutely NO reason that the storyline could not have been wrapped up and run concurrently with Lo3Ws.
Then, to have a product advertised that was in no way comparable to the work the two of you had done was not only blatantly false, but insulting.
We, the fans, do not know the full story at this point. We acknowledge that. And we understand that you cannot afford to burn bridges.
What we don't understand is that there is a wealth of quality talent that could have done something, if not grand, at least not insulting in so short an amount of time.
You are a class act to come here, Sir. Good luck and congrats on your new job.
Posted by Exnihil on :
quote:Originally posted by fjm: I realize that the situation was less than ideal but I hope you guys follow me into my upcoming projects as I think you guys will be very pleasantly surprised. Again thank you all so much for the support you guys and gals have given and hopefully I can count on you guys to continue doing so.
Thank you for posting, Francis. One of the nicest parts of this latter Legion arc was watching your evolution as an artist. You really added your own distinct "voice" to the Legion, and that's why it was particularly disappointing to not see your work on the finale, such as it was.
Best of luck in all your future endeavors; I think you've got a great career ahead of you.
Posted by CJ Taylor on :
quote:Originally posted by stephbarton: Dan DiDio DC Comics 1700 Broadway New York, NY 10019
Don't just say it here guys (and gals) write a letter. I know I will (and I don't even have the issue yet, so I will wait until I've read it in my LCS, to decide if I want to buy it or not...)
But the sheer unprofessionalism of this stunt is pretty disgusting. Bad move on DC's part and I will let them know.
I'm going to mail my copy of #50 back to DC. I don't want it. I'll even write and express my disdain- minus the vitriol and insults.
Posted by Jerry on :
I don't think this issue falls into the category of being so bad that it is good. It doesn't appear to be the result of anyone trying to deliberately and cleverly make it bad to spite someone. It is the simple result of everyone involved throwing in the towel. Didio declared that the series would end with this issue because "50 is a nice round number" or something to that effect. How else would people react to that kind of logic but to cut and run? Sales were not good. Fan reaction, in general, was not good. I do believe that Shooter and Manapul could have pulled off a satisfying conclusion in the final issue if they had chosen to stick it out. Look at last issue. It was exciting and interesting. Part of the what made #49 good was that the rush to get to a conclusion brought a quicker pace than this series has never had. The series suffered from the slow pace under both Waid and Shooter. They wouldn't have had time to address all of the outstanding plot threads but they could have concluded Projectra's story. It would have been powerful.
Ah well. We got a train wreck of an ending. Let it be. Onward and upward. The Legion will be back sometime in some form. Let's hope that the next stewards can learn something from all this.
For those still debating whether to buy the issue, the deciding factor should be whether you want to pay three bucks to own Manapul's wrap around cover. You've already seen the online images. They always look better, to me, on real live paper.
I got a chuckle out of Atom Girl's line, "They must have virtual nukes right? I would". Other than that nothing much to see unless you just have to satisfy your morbid curiosity.
Posted by Ricardo on :
quote:Originally posted by Matthew E:
quote:Originally posted by Tromium: The only thing Didio has accomplished by his latest act of fraud is to confound, enrage and alienate fans more than ever before, and eliminate any chance the Johnsboot mock-original LSH ever had of being accepted as the definitive Legion. By screwing Shooter, he also screwed himself, Geoff Johns and the very future of the franchise.
How do you figure? I mean, I'm in no position to either criticize or defend, not having read the comic yet, but I don't see how LSH v5 #50 reflects on Johns's retroboot at all. What's the connection?
The connection is that since Shooter started his run, Johns' been trampling (true, with Dan Didio's blessing) over whatever the main book was doing. First it was that dreck called The Lightning Saga, one of those typical Johns plots that meander a lot to leave you hanging but it actually goes nowhere, but to another "big event". Then, Legion of 3 Worlds - in which the writer of one of those worlds was again trampled down. I never saw a single acknowledge to Shooter (or Waid) from Johns. In fact, he seems simply not to care.
As for the rip-off and coward-writing of LSH#50, it seems very clear that this was done to allow Johns to retrofit anything he wants from the Threeboot. However, if L3W #1 is to be taken into consideration, this ending does not fit with the team presented on LSH#50, but to the team left behind by Mark Waid. But, hey, this has never stopped Johns before: he killed all JLI and transformed Max Lord into a crazy jackass for nothing but "good storytelling"...
Posted by Ricardo on :
When I answered this last post, I had not read fjm message. So a bit of numbering.
1) From fjm's words, it is clear that Shooter has NOTHING to do with this garbage;
2) Since Shooter was out, it seems to me there was no reason for fjm to do it too. I mean, it could be a whole 22-pages of cake recipes, for all I care. That would probably be better written.
2) Justin Thyme is Dan Didio. Whoever read his short stories should find similarities.
3) It's funny to see people complaining about the pace of Shooter and Waid's storytelling and longing for Johns'... It seems they forget who is the king of meandering. I mean, The Lightning Saga, Rogues Revenge (what happened there? Nothing), GL retconning origin (8+ issues just to present some badly named Red Lantern)...
4) I really wish to see the real story from Shooter. Please, whoever meets him at the NY-Con, report us! And ask him to post his true intentions online, even if it is only a braod overview. That will be the true LSH story.
5) I am surprised there was simply NO mentioning of this crap on the main comic book review sites.
6) LSH was hardly selling bad. It was still far from 15k, which seems to be the cap for cancelling books these days.
Posted by Legion Tracker on :
I've bought and read every Legion story for the past 40 years. That's the longest relationship I've had with just about anything other than my family. And I'm not a comics geek -- I've read a few other books for short periods and then let them go -- so I don't know how to explain this relationship with the LSH.
This story, had it been only a single story, would not be the worst Legion story I've read. But to be the conclusion of a storyline...AND the conclusion of a series...AND during the celebration of the Legion's 50th anniversary...well, all that makes it sickeningly appalling.
Unless this had something to do with the Superman lawsuit...if DC was counting their Winathian chickens before they hatched, and some didn't hatch in time...then I can't imagine a reason for this. And even so, there had to be a classier way to resolve this story. Do like Astro City and just wait until it's ready! I'd have much more respect for that.
How many potentially fine DC stories are being strangled by these crossovers? I have no idea what's happening with this multiverse business, and I don't care..and I sure don't want to buy 52 books every month to understand it. Just give me a good story for my money, dagnabbit!
Beyond this series ending being disrespectful to the readers, it's terrible business to offer such a bad product at such an auspicious time for the franchise. It's like Budweiser bottling cat urine during Super Bowl week. Well, maybe not quite to that extent...more like bottling cat urine for one of their little boutique products.
That t-i-n-y little sentence on the last page -- "We greatly appreciate the support of our loyal readers!" -- felt like spit in the face. Or perhaps they meant it as a desperate plea for the suckers among us not to leave DC. There was not a word of hope for their "loyal readers" about the future of the Legion. The message seemed to be, "We had to pretend to create a passable ending, but we've flushed it for good. Too bad for you."
Brainy's words on the bottom of the fourth page from the end grabbed my attention as soon as I read them. He had seized control of the matrix and was sitting in his force field surrounded by fallen aliens. "That goes for ALL of you, from the heart of the universe to the furthest reaches of space. Thanks for trying to 'save' us, but we'll be 'keeping it real,' nonetheless."
It had the ring of a writer's message to someone outside the story. An "F-you!" to the powers? Or to critical fans? Or was it a real "thanks" to someone?
I'm a big boy and I know this is just a comic book. I've been disappointed with the way DC has handled my friends before, but hey, it's not all about me. I'll still keep looking for the Legion to show up somewhere. After this time, though, I'm sad that I'll have to support DC to find them.
Posted by future king on :
quote:Originally posted by fjm: I realize that the situation was less than ideal but I hope you guys follow me into my upcoming projects as I think you guys will be very pleasantly surprised. Again thank you all so much for the support you guys and gals have given and hopefully I can count on you guys to continue doing so.
You're welcome, and yes you definately have my support. I will check out your up-coming projects and see what you've been up to since leaving the Legion. Thanks for a VERY NICE run on the series. You were truly amazing and I'm proud of the accomplishments as a fellow Canadian.
Hopefully we'll see you on another Legion title in the near future?? Heh, heh, heh..... That would totally rock, and would be a kick-ass payback to the bad nightmare that is #50.
Did you happen to read it by any chance?
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
Look at the positive side-- this issue'll provide *years* of grist for Legion-related fan joke threads. Dr. Mayavale, Ze Tongue, Legion on the Run, this issue...
Posted by Superboy on :
quote:Originally posted by Ricardo:
quote:Originally posted by Matthew E:
quote:Originally posted by Tromium: The only thing Didio has accomplished by his latest act of fraud is to confound, enrage and alienate fans more than ever before, and eliminate any chance the Johnsboot mock-original LSH ever had of being accepted as the definitive Legion. By screwing Shooter, he also screwed himself, Geoff Johns and the very future of the franchise.
How do you figure? I mean, I'm in no position to either criticize or defend, not having read the comic yet, but I don't see how LSH v5 #50 reflects on Johns's retroboot at all. What's the connection?
The connection is that since Shooter started his run, Johns' been trampling (true, with Dan Didio's blessing) over whatever the main book was doing. First it was that dreck called The Lightning Saga, one of those typical Johns plots that meander a lot to leave you hanging but it actually goes nowhere, but to another "big event". Then, Legion of 3 Worlds - in which the writer of one of those worlds was again trampled down. I never saw a single acknowledge to Shooter (or Waid) from Johns. In fact, he seems simply not to care.
As for the rip-off and coward-writing of LSH#50, it seems very clear that this was done to allow Johns to retrofit anything he wants from the Threeboot. However, if L3W #1 is to be taken into consideration, this ending does not fit with the team presented on LSH#50, but to the team left behind by Mark Waid. But, hey, this has never stopped Johns before: he killed all JLI and transformed Max Lord into a crazy jackass for nothing but "good storytelling"...
The Lightning Saga was over and Superman and The Legion of Superheroes had already been announced in June of 2007.
Shooter agreed to return to the Legion in September of 2007.
The first issue of Superman and the Legion of Superheroes came out in December of 2007.
Shooter's first story was produced in January of 2008.
Sorry, but Geoff Johns didn't trample on Shooter...if anything Shooter attempted to trample on Geoff Johns.
[ January 29, 2009, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Posted by Superboy on :
quote:Originally posted by MLLASH: Well, thank space I decided to read the spoilers because I was bored....
I was all ready to avenge you all by declaring that for the first time ever, I was going to intentionally NOT buy an issue of LSH.
But then Blocks' review got me thinking. Is this a case of something being so awful that it is actually good? Is it a case of one man's "Desperate Living" being another man's "Schindler's List", or what?
I'm leaning toward it being a steaming pile I won't buy, but I'm open to other points of view.
Well as far as continuity from the previous issue, you get better carryover continuity in the typical epiosode of Sesame Street.
I have never seen such a blatant disregard for existing plotlines at the conclusion of a story, probably ever. Not this many, not this blatantly.
There is nothing clever about that. I mean they just ignored everything except for 2 plotlines.
As others have noted, a white event is actually a step up from this in some ways.
That said, it actually does have a Silver Age feel to much of it(except where Garth says Lyle can't get any) and the behavior of the characters is this surreal Silver Age parody type thing...bordering on bizarre.
I did laugh several times at just how ridiculous some of it was.
I guess you'll just have to read it at least and give us your review.
I'm not returning my issue, this one might have some value someday.
IMHO the Zero Hour whiteout was still worse.
Posted by Ricardo on :
quote:Originally posted by Superboy: Sorry, but Geoff Johns didn't trample on Shooter...if anything Shooter attempted to trample on Geoff Johns.
Ok, so Johns trampled over Waid first, then Shooter. My bad.
And I don't see the connection between LSH #50 and a Silver Age book. For once, those used to be self-contained stories with an opening, some development and a conclusion. This one has nothing like that, it was just a bit of nonsensical junk, a bunch of action (hahaha) scenes and a slap on my face in the end. Characters were harder to be distinguished than Edmond Hamilton typical two-dimensional rendering (hey, at least we could understand Curt Swan's art!).
Posted by insanelad on :
Thanks for the replies Superboy - really helpful. I often feel very ignorant as to what goes on in comics when I hear you guys talking about it as you obviously know more about it - it's really interesting to get another perspective on it. I guess no institution is exempt from the curse of politics! This feels like a political move of some sort, and they (whoever 'they' are) misjudged the reaction of the fans badly.
Posted by Sir Tim Drake on :
quote:Originally posted by Ricardo: 2) Justin Thyme is Dan Didio. Whoever read his short stories should find similarities.
Can you give us some concrete evidence for this?
Posted by stuorstew on :
There is a review of this issue up on Comic Book Resources.
[ January 30, 2009, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: Nightcrawler ]
Posted by veryvery on :
wait so if shooter left instead of finishing... isn't this his bad? he left a bunch of other people holding the bag so that they had to write something else at the last second?
ahhh. jeez. like sorry i can't help feeling bad for these people. as i said over on the omnicomm, making comics is HARD. it's really really hard and legion is as hard as it gets with the most impossible to please fans. literally, impossible.
try finishing up someone elses work sometime and see how well it goes. it does NOT go well sometimes. usually, when it DOES go well? you can't tell and no one knows it happened. but you mess up, and there is a nightmare! but sometimes you have deadlines, you HAVE to get the book to the printers and that's all you can do!
being an editor is HARD. being EIC is harder. now imagine being the EIC of a company with the most judgmental and tempermental and IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE consumers in the world. i seriously cannot think of anything with more of a crazy fan base than comics, just think about how freaking huge and insane SDCC is and how there's like NOTHING else bigger. I get dizzy just thinking about it.
so your writer jumps ship on a book after spoiling the intended ending an interview, the solicits have already been published, your artist is working on a more important project (considering he's doing all the legwork on the book plus that back up in adventure and plus some covers....).
man it sucks to be nameless writer compendium and then it sucks more for that bachs guy, whom everyone is going to be pissed at because he's not up to par but he can draw a 22 odd pages in time. hey he MIGHT be good! i can show you some really really bad crap i've made when a deadline was tight. and i mean REALLY bad.
case in point, i can't help thinking about how BAD sanford green's LOSH issue was but how NICE his LOSH31 issue was, and how much i LOVE his sketchbooks and art but how breathtakingly horrific that issue was.
yeah this was bad. it was REALLY bad. super hella mega bad bad. BUT... all things considered...
1) it got out on time 2) no one died! (sort of) 3)do you guys remember that last ending?! where it just like weren't querl and mon-el rambling at each other?! and then it ACTUALLY ended in TT?!!! 4) dream girl got her body AND POWERS back. 5)we found out what those freaky monster things were 6) DID I POINT OUT THAT NO ONE DIED?
it ended the arc... messily, but there it is. it tied up the plot lines that _I_ cared about so... hahaha, i can't be too upset.
i wonder if i would feel more warmly towards this if it'd been drawn better. my cohort's reading of what i read has led me to realize i have this crutch where i'm very forgiving of "well-drawn" thing. i will accept a lot of idiocy if it's well paneled and the people look awesome.
ok. so. that was a lot of talking but what i really wanted to say was, remember how the LAST legion didn't really end IN legion? so...maybe this isn't really the ending. i mean, i dunno if you guys remember this other little thing called Lo3W where our heroes appeared? maybe that's another reason why this was put on the back burner of the importance stove, that's what makes logical sense to me.
oh and anyways, don't worry about it that much, in final crisis Click Here For A Spoilersuperman just miracle wished them all away so it never happened <3. anyways, BE STRONG! MAYBE THE NEXT THING WILL BE BETTER! that's our real mantra, right next to "long live the legion", right? i keep thinking of that movie "what dreams may come" and the legion is sort of like that, let's go meet our precious future friends again and again! <3
Posted by the Maritimer on :
Thanks, FJM, for coming on this site to explain what happened to the ending of this particular Legion series.
I would have personally preferred if the story had been left unfinished. It actually was as it were. The ending that was presented to us, the followers of this title, was NOT the actual ending for Jim Shooter's legion story.
As I mentioned earlier, I have been following and collecting the Legion of Super Heroes for nearly 50 years. I don't post on this site as a rule, but I was so upset over what happened and I knew others would be as well, because it felt like my home had been broken into and something I really liked was stolen.
Often over the years I have considered writing a letter of comment to a particular comic I was enjoying but never did. Well, today is the day. DC comics will be getting a hand written letter addressed to Mr. Paul Levitz expressing my extreme disappointment about the way this situation was handled. I will not be returning my copy of Legion #50 as I did enjoy Francis' double cover. I will probably never look at the interior again.
I look forward to reading more comments on this subject over the next few days. If Dan DiDio has any courage whatsoever, he will come here personally or to one of the comics review sites and offer an apology for what transpired. Good Lord, the least they could have done was remove or alter the January solicitation so it wouldn't have been such a shock!
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
I'm stunned. Stunned that we're all so united! Like FC said, this is probably the most universally condemned issue ever in Legon history! Even moreso than the Jamm issue!
I'll be getting it, as I have just about every other Legion story, but I'm not sure 'so bad its funny' will even apply.
Damn DC; I've been saying for sometime we should get pitchforks and start a slaughter
PS - Francis, you rawk and I'm following your artwork to wherever you go next (can't wait for your Superman/Batman story).
Posted by googoomuck on :
After reading LSH#50 more throughly I think that my original assessment was in error.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Very, i cannot agree with you. We are hard to please because we expect quality. We may not always agree, and will endlessly debate, but this is nigh universal condemnation. Its not one or two people that autamatically say "this sucked".
Reasons are given. Solid, valid, provable reasons.
I do not have any empathy or sympathy for them because we are hard to please. I cannot accept that we, the customers, are to blame in this instance. There may be other instances where a customer is to blame, but this isn't one of them.
Sorry. I respect your postings, and that you obviously put thought into them from your perspective, but this is a DNC that should not have taken place.
They could have ended it with 49 and been much better off.
Posted by Disaster Boy on :
hm. do u think dc will issue an apology? that would be funny.
Posted by Tamper Lad on :
not as funny as the issue they put out.
Which was about as funny as the taste of a bottle of Corona that'd been left in the sun the entire summer served with a week old potato salad.
Posted by future king on :
quote:Originally posted by Disaster Boy: hm. do u think dc will issue an apology? that would be funny.
Hell no bro, they are way too into themselves to apologize to us. Who are we after all? Just the reason DC's been in business all these years AND 50 of those as loyal Legion fans. Then they go and "reward" us with this sack of sh*t in the form of the much-anticipated, anniversay year special, series ending product.
I wish I didn't hate X-Men these days (past few years actually). I'd stick with Marvel exclusively.
Posted by rtvu2 on :
For a final issue, it did little to wrap up any lose ends. One of the worst books I have read in a long time.
Lets hope Adventure Comics is better.
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
On the side:
A good issue NEVER gets this many posts.
Posted by Candle on :
quote:Originally posted by rickshaw1: They could have ended it with 49 and been much better off.
Well, from MY perspective, they could have ended the series BEFORE #49. Somewhere pre-Princess Projectra's (& Brin's) reputation being tossed in the gutter.
Or for that matter, sometime BEFORE Brainy used a surrogate filled with Nura's soul, for a date. Which, seemingly, PROVES that her presense IS a soul, rather than just a download of 'Nura' informantion. That alone makes what happens in #50 an atrocity!
I would have happily settled for the issue with Star Boy and Light Lass channeling power to Brainy and destroying the planet.
Then, they could have made jfm's last covers into beautiful posters for us to rave over!
[ January 30, 2009, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Candle ]
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Candle...i am one of if not the biggest of Brin's Fans, and folks here can tell you how much i love the princess, so believe me, i understand.
I cannot help but think there was much more to Brins and the princess' story that could easily have been finished in another four issues. In fact, we know there was, because shooter told us he had written it out, including a shortened ending for 50.
[ January 30, 2009, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: rickshaw1 ]
Posted by Arm Fall Off Boy on :
I gotta agree with Blockade Boy. In my short time here, I've never seen us so united and so many different people posting.
Remember awhile back, the "I sent an email to Dan DiDio" thread? I sent him several. Well, a few days ago I tried again and I got one of the "undeliverable" mailer daemons. Guess he got tired of hearing from me. Or us.
I did send fjm an e-mail yesterday, first of all thanking him for his work. Then I asked him 1) if he knew and could tell who wrote issue #50, and I sincerely, sincerely promised him that I would not tell who said it, or, 2) I gave him a list of 4 groups of 3 creators each , with the likes of Jim Shooter, Mark Waid, Keith Giffen, etc. randomly mixed in, to ask if he could at least tell me which group the creator was in--the final choice was "None of the above/unknown."
I got a reply earlier today, and yes, I realize I was very naive to believe he would/could tell me the answer, or at least narrow it down. I REALLY would not have given his name out as the source. I'm only writing this now because his reply is no cause for damage to his reputation. Anywho, his reply essentially said he really, honestly did not know, that since he and Shooter left the book, he hasn't looked back.
First of all, everything I have read from him leads me to believe he is a young man of integrity. I don't believe it was Shooter, middle fingers blazing or otherwise. My email is currently down, and I'm *84th* in the queue for Tech Support, so I can't cut and paste it here exactly. If I can later I will.
Still hate the issue. Except for the cover.
[ January 30, 2009, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: Arm Fall Off Boy ]
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
quote:Originally posted by Arm Fall Off Boy: First of all, everything I have read from him leads me to believe he is a young man of integrity. Secondly, the only thing I did glean from it was that comment about 'since he and Jim' left. I don't believe it was Shooter, middle fingers blazing or otherwise. My email is currently down, and I'm *84th* in the queue for Tech Support, so I can't cut and paste it here exactly. If I can later I will.
Please don't post private emails in the public forum. I've met Francis in person and I'll guarantee he spoke the truth.
Frankly, I don't think it matters who wrote this issue. I would like Francis (or Jim even) to maybe, later down the road, tell us the real ending to the storyline we were reading up until #50. That would be fascinating. I also hope Francis has another opportunity to work on the Legion under better circumstances than this.
Posted by Ricardo on :
quote:Originally posted by Sir Tim Drake:
quote:Originally posted by Ricardo: 2) Justin Thyme is Dan Didio. Whoever read his short stories should find similarities.
Can you give us some concrete evidence for this?
I was being very sarcastic here. My apologies for not indicating it.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Unless someone in DC editorial etc... says something, its doubtful Shooter will be able to say anything either. At some point, the crew in charge will be gone, and the may be a possibiity of work for him again, which he has earned with his run here. There may have been ups and downs, and the basic characters were not liked at all, but Shooter turned crap into fertilizer and started something growing.
The only way we ever know is if DC realizes that it was indeed cow diareahea and apologizes and gives us the story.
Posted by Ricardo on :
quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: Frankly, I don't think it matters who wrote this issue. I would like Francis (or Jim even) to maybe, later down the road, tell us the real ending to the storyline we were reading up until #50. That would be fascinating. I also hope Francis has another opportunity to work on the Legion under better circumstances than this.
In fact, we also should give a big thank you for Barry Kitson, who also came forth and told us here how much more different (and interesting) the book would have been had it not being trampled by DC Editorial and Geoff Johns disregard for other creators' franchises. Hopefully, we will see something like that from Jim Shooter. He is the kind of guy who sincerely loves the Legion. Which is not the case of Dan Didio or Mike Marts for all we know/read about.
Posted by Sketch Lad on :
Well....
I don't think the art was as bad as many here have stated. There has been worse art in Legion books. It is too bad we didn't get a true farewell issue from fjm. I bet it would have had that extra ....oomph!
Storywise...hey, I think it kinda follows 3boot trends of having a big, long build up with an anti-climax. That didn't surprise or bother me.
I will echo those who found this to be a let down for a series ender. A cameo of Wildfire is kinda nice. Anyone who knows me knows it's hard for me to criticize the return of Dream Girl, especially after her horrid treatment in this boot. My heart is pleased to see her and Drake, my head feels like it was a cheap attempt to get on my good side.
Leaving all the other plots un-resolved is just painful. It does make one anticipate some sort of resolution in the book(s) ....whatever they may be... that the Legion will appear in in the future-- Lo3W, Adventure, whatever.
As I said in my comments about #49, it's hard to feel connected to this boot of the Legion knowing that it's over, but somehow, TPTB managed to bring out some emotions.... outrage.
Wow.
Posted by Set on :
So, I'm mildly entertained by the fact that 'Justin Thyme' didn't know how to spell 'sprock...' He got it wrong twice that I noticed!
The art had moments that I didn't hate (the virtual reality aliens looked kinda neat, for instance) but other moments (Invisible Toddler, for instance) that made me wince at how bad they were. Given a full month to work on a story that wasn't being kludged together at the last moment by a scab who was too ashamed of what he'd produced to even use his real name on the project, it's possible the artist's work would be far more fairly represented.
These last six or so issues have been boggling. The Tryouts issue was amazingly cool, with tons of attention to detail from both Jim and Francis, which led to subthreads speculating why characters had voted the way they had, and posts commenting on how each of the Legionnaires had different physical / visual reactions to events in the story, adding to their characterization, and then there's this sort of awful cobbled-together drek.
I wouldn't mind seeing Dream Girl back, too, but not as some soulless simulacrum of herself that has transformed from the ass-kicking former PreCop that Waid gave us into some fainting flower that has to constantly be saved by her big brave (green) man and wastes most of her appearances either being victimized, being rescued or nattering on about her big, big love and upcoming nuptials. Bah, humbug.
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
'Justin Thyme' didn't know how to spell 'sprock...'
That should rule out Levitz as writer and Karate kid wasn't killed so that should rule out Giffen.
Posted by Arm Fall Off Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by Blockade Boy: 'Justin Thyme' didn't know how to spell 'sprock...'
That should rule out Levitz as writer and Karate kid wasn't killed so that should rule out Giffen.
Excellent points, BB.
As for private e-mails, NC, it was basically what I stated here, but gotcha. No problem.
Posted by matlock on :
Do I have to buy this to gripe too? 'Cause I still don't want to. I never enjoyed the 3boot much, but even it deserved better than this. I mean, they could have put a little better effort forth, it's not like people expect comics to ship on time any more do they? DC's really pulling out the stops for the Legion these days.
Posted by Klordny on :
In a personal email, Shooter said that he had nothing to do with this issue. It's someone else's hack job.
Also, Francis told me via email that he doesn't know who wrote it either, and that he didn't do any pages for the issue before he left.
Posted by veryvery on :
rickshaw: it's cool. i'm not saying it was good, it's just that i want people to understand how hard it is! it's like herding cats that are hopped up on crystal meth! you see lots and lots of books on the stand but it's very rare that people think about how hard it is to make that book get there. i wish MORE fans actually tried to make comics and understood how hard it is to make one page!! just working on a very very casual side comic is soul destroying, last night i was especially sad at how a couple pages i did looked and then i was feeling guilty because i was so harsh on the art... like... i SUCK A LOT and here i am being super mean to some guy who got this stuff dumped on his lap. it's bad but you know, at least it's not traces of photographs crappily shoved together and passes as a comic *cough calero *cough*.
i just feel guilty ragging on it so much.
Posted by Arm Fall Off Boy on :
Guys (and gals), my email is back up and I goofed and misquoted Francis. He said "I" not "Jim/Shooter and I." Very sorry about that.
I shall look before I leap with my feet into my mouth next time.
Posted by Ricardo on :
So, what you say, veryvery, is that it is difficult to do such a crappy issue. I can sympatize with that.
I don't think anyone here is BLAMING the artist (but I do blame the writer, who was too coward to put his name on it, though I tend to think it was a "multiple writers" thing, because it is SOOOOO awfully patched together). Most of all, I guess it is a consensus that we must blame DC Editorial for letting such garbage be printed with their name on it. It offended fans of the 3boot, it offended the artists involved (and I bet fjm and Shooter are too polite to ever acknowledge that), it offended the Legiondom... In essence, it was VERY offensive! Better not to print it, or to call it a "imaginary story", it doesn't matter.
I am one of the harshest critics of the Reboot/Archie Legion, even though Legion on The Run was clearly good stimuli to that event. However, it was never offensive, in the sense that they simply revoked or ignored whatever came just one issue before. They really tried to tell a decent goodbye story (they failed, but they tried) and move forward.
Not this time: this time, the idea was to put out LSH #50, no matter what, just to give us a big middle-finger for sticking up to the Legion, even though DC itself created this huge mess of it. There was no intention of:
1) Selling a good/decent product; 2) Wrapping up a storyline; 3) Respecting its 30k customers (and more so on the net), who were falsely advertised of a completely different product.
Posted by Director Lad on :
I don't know what to say about this issue. I've mentioned here that I wasn't really getting Shooter's story, but this issue was insultingly bad. This wasn't even up to Silver Age standards of story.
When I went into the comic shop this week, I hadn't been since before Christmas. Between finding time to get there and certain financial issues, I just hadn't had a chance to get there. After four weeks of not buying comics, I was starting to think "well, what if I just stopped now. What would I miss?" I told myself that I'd miss the final issue of the Legion and the last two issues of Final Crisis. I spent about a hundred bucks on comics Wednesday. After reading those three issues, I may be done after all. I'll buy the occasional Usagi trade, but if this is the direction that comic writing is going, I'm out. All the way out.
I've kept reading the Legion over the years because I keep hoping that someone will recapture what made it such a magical read 20+ years ago. I think I'm too old for it to happen again. At this point, I'd rather just treasure the old stories and ignore the new. I really think I'll be happier that way.
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
Don't blame Justin Thyme blame DC. JT had another writer's several plot lines to tie up as best as he could in one issue. I actually think they did an all right job. Story still sucked. It was a hurried hack job but with that in mind it wasn't that bad.
The art on the other hand killed me. Didn't like it at all. Combined with the bad story this made the issue pretty horrible.
My guess the writer was Bedard but I don't want to blame him. Blame DC. How the hell does Didio still have his job? Final Crisis was a flop IMO, DC overall is selling much less than Marvel, and some things like the Legion seem so much like an after thought.
Posted by Blacula on :
Can of worms being opened.....
NOW! This is probably going to get me "Whatever Variant"-ed but I'm just curious as to why no one seems to be chasing after Francis and Jim with their burning pitchforks?
From what Francis has said in this thread, and I think what we can gather from Jim's old interview and his admission that he had nothing to do with this issue - it sounds like the two of them just up and quit this book very suddenly.
Who knows when exactly but obviously after #49 was written and the solicit for this issue was announced. So obviously, very last minute.
Now I know they had had their story majorly screwed with by losing some of the issues they had to tell it in (and that would sprock anyone off) - but isn't that part of the 'deal with the devil' you make when you work somewhere like DC Comics?
And if you've brought your readers this far along, isn't it your (professional? moral? creative?) responsibility to give them just that *one* final issue to send them off happy and complete with?
I don't know. I'm not blaming Jim or Francis since obviously I don't know the whole story but I think it's a bit tough to lay *all* the blame on 'Justin Thyme' and whoever the poor artist was for trying to condense four months worth of story into one issue and then draw the two dozen or so characters that that story revolves around all in the space of like, four weeks.
Posted by insanelad on :
... I have to agree to a certain extent Blacula. Would a month really have made a huge difference to whatever schedule Francis was on to have finished the Legion run first? DC clearly don't have a problem delaying books or switching artists at short notice. Couldn't he have finished one project (especially considering that he only had one issue left to go) before starting another?
Hard for us to say, we weren't there and didn't have the decision to make.
Posted by EmeraldEmpress on :
Slketch Lad says :
I don't think the art was as bad as many here have stated. There has been worse art in Legion books. It is too bad we didn't get a true farewell issue from fjm. I bet it would have had that extra ....oomph!
And I'ts true remember Lee Moder o Jason Amstrong... It's a shame the Projectra's story is unfinished, Cosmic Boy returns, Trips & Karate Kid, Dream Boy? and so many subplots. And why Element Lad and Pahntom Girl are in te cover, Atom Girl and Ligthning Lad deserve more this honor. And where is Sun Boy in this poor finale? Farewell to another Legion Boot, I only wait with hope for a better time..coming soon!
Posted by the Maritimer on :
After reflecting some more on what happened with Jim Shooter's story line, we can only hope, and it's probably a long shot, is this story could not be resolved due to what will happen in Legion of 3 Worlds.
Perhaps the Projectra, Timber Wolf, Phantom Girl, Lightning Lad and Saturn Girl issues for this version of the Legion will be revealed at the end of the mini series.
I have to agree with Director Lad, it's time to review my reading/buying habits. Final Crisis made my head hurt. Superman kicked out of Action Comics. Batman is no longer Bruce Wayne. OK, I'll sit those titles out for a while, no problem. No Legion of Super Heroes comic you say? Looks like I'll have more disposable income for the near future. Thanks Dan!
Posted by The Man From Cargg on :
I got out of a sick bed to buy this final issue. I've just read it... I may never recover.
The only good thing about how wretched this issue was... it was SO terrible that I don't feel as sad as I normally would that there won't be another issue coming next month.
I feel as if a rabid dog has been put to sleep.
R.I.P.
[ January 31, 2009, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: The Man From Cargg ]
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
I understand what you are saying Blacula...and if this comic was produced in a vacuum, I'd agree with you about Jim and Francis.
But, ever since Infinite Crisis to Final Crisis (and unfortunately it doesn't appear to be ending soon), DC Editorial has done little to cultivate certain creative teams over another. In the Legion's case it's been "F" over the actual title because we want Johns to do whatever he wants.
Shooter (and Manapul) were hired on board with a 16 issue storyline approved by the editorial staff and went to work. Didio or whoever woke up some time after that and decided to screw them and change everything for something else. Instead of letting them finish what they started, they wanted them to wrap it up prematurely. SnM may have come up with a way to do it, but it might not still been enough for TPTB and their precious Ode to Superboy-Prime, Green Lantern and Flash in the 30th century called Legion of 3 Worlds or something. Who knows?
I feel once they let them create, they should have let the story conclude without interference. And if they did decide to cut things short early on, then its an editor's job to reign in the creators so that everyone is happy. Most of Shooter's plots should have been resolved before #50 hit the stands. Jim should have been better at finding stopping points and the editors should have said "no" to a plot or two long before now. "Finish this one first, then start with that one."
And Francis probably didn't want to draw the sh*tty script that someone pulled out of their @$$ to make #50 possible. He's just being a gentlemen not to say it here in public.
Posted by Awkward Pause Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by Blacula: Can of worms being opened.....
... From what Francis has said in this thread, and I think what we can gather from Jim's old interview and his admission that he had nothing to do with this issue - it sounds like the two of them just up and quit this book very suddenly.
...
Well, now you've gone and posted something I have to agree with. So let me provide another target for the pitchforks by saying that everything I've read about Mr. Shooter and his time on the threeboot has left me feeling that he doesn't really care about the Legion. He does good shuffling of team-members to keep fans happy, he can see where plot points should be addressed, and he has other nice writing skills. But these are skills that can be applied to any team or book, and that sounds like what this assignment was to him. So, when/if DC asked him to put in more effort than he could agree to, he left. Folks would probably support such a decision, and I'm not about to argue over it. On pondering it, though, I couldn't help but envision Mr. Waid feeling disappointed with negative repercussions on the Legion from any perceived missteps by him. Whereas with Mr. Shooter, I can't see him caring about much other than his particular story.
Posted by Subliminal Kid on :
We were robbed. We deserve a redo. I suppose that nobody considered that T-Wolf might have been the Legionaire that passed.
Who needs the Hardback now that you know how disappointingly this resolves.
My best Legion moment of late is the 1st page of Final Crisis #6!!
Posted by Ricardo on :
quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: I understand what you are saying Blacula...and if this comic was produced in a vacuum, I'd agree with you about Jim and Francis.
But, ever since Infinite Crisis to Final Crisis (and unfortunately it doesn't appear to be ending soon), DC Editorial has done little to cultivate certain creative teams over another. In the Legion's case it's been "F" over the actual title because we want Johns to do whatever he wants.
Shooter (and Manapul) were hired on board with a 16 issue storyline approved by the editorial staff and went to work. Didio or whoever woke up some time after that and decided to screw them and change everything for something else. Instead of letting them finish what they started, they wanted them to wrap it up prematurely. SnM may have come up with a way to do it, but it might not still been enough for TPTB and their precious Ode to Superboy-Prime, Green Lantern and Flash in the 30th century called Legion of 3 Worlds or something. Who knows?
I feel once they let them create, they should have let the story conclude without interference. And if they did decide to cut things short early on, then its an editor's job to reign in the creators so that everyone is happy. Most of Shooter's plots should have been resolved before #50 hit the stands. Jim should have been better at finding stopping points and the editors should have said "no" to a plot or two long before now. "Finish this one first, then start with that one."
And Francis probably didn't want to draw the sh*tty script that someone pulled out of their @$$ to make #50 possible. He's just being a gentlemen not to say it here in public.
You wrote exactly what I believe in, Nightcrawler, in terms of editorial business. It was poorly, awfully handled. Shooter was treated like an a$$ having to rework his story every 5 minutes to whatever Johns/Didio wanted to do. Even though he was hired to tell a 16-issue story, from begining to end. Funny is that Johns can do whatever he wants with the Legion (like now, by making them a sub-team to GL, Flash and Superlame-Prime). Thanks for making it all so clear, N.
Posted by reckless on :
quote:Originally posted by Awkward Pause Boy:
quote:Originally posted by Blacula: Can of worms being opened.....
... From what Francis has said in this thread, and I think what we can gather from Jim's old interview and his admission that he had nothing to do with this issue - it sounds like the two of them just up and quit this book very suddenly.
...
Well, now you've gone and posted something I have to agree with. So let me provide another target for the pitchforks by saying that everything I've read about Mr. Shooter and his time on the threeboot has left me feeling that he doesn't really care about the Legion. He does good shuffling of team-members to keep fans happy, he can see where plot points should be addressed, and he has other nice writing skills. But these are skills that can be applied to any team or book, and that sounds like what this assignment was to him. So, when/if DC asked him to put in more effort than he could agree to, he left. Folks would probably support such a decision, and I'm not about to argue over it. On pondering it, though, I couldn't help but envision Mr. Waid feeling disappointed with negative repercussions on the Legion from any perceived missteps by him. Whereas with Mr. Shooter, I can't see him caring about much other than his particular story.
I don't see how you can think that. Shooter has a long history with the Legion and has shown a lot of pride in his work.
I agree that Shooter either quit or was fired before issue no. 50, but none of us know the deal he worked with DC. When he came onto the Threeboot, it was in desperate straits, and DC needed something to add life. DC figured Shooter would bring fans back to the book. They pimped the hell out of his return. But to do that, the editors probably had to make some concessions to Shooter to allow him to do what he wanted with the team. Then, Legion of 3 Worlds is announced, the book is canceled early, and Shooter's plans get shot to hell. Suddenly, TPTB want the story condensed significantly and want a different ending. As a writer, Shooter was re basically being told to drop his vision for the story. That could very well have been counter to Shooter's agreement with DC, so he would have been perfectly justified in walking off. Alternatively, he could have objected to the demands and been fired (and replaced by a warm body who would do what the editors wanted).
You only need to look at Lo3W to realize that it creates huge continuity problems for the Threeboot. While we do not know when in Threeboot continuity it takes place, it could not come after No. 50 if Shooter was going to kill one of the longstanding legionnaires who was already appearing in Lo3W (there already is a gaffe in not having Gazelle and Sun Boy in Lo3W). And, most likely, the Threeboot could not really come after Lo3W, given that it is almost certain that several Threeboot characters are going to wind up in body bags.
I recognize that comic book writers do have to answer to editors, and often modify their vision. However, there also is a point where a writer's pride in his work comes into play and being asked to bastardize a story so that it is completely unrecognizable may be too much to demand from any creative person. At that point, quitting is the only appropriate thing to do.
Who knows? Maybe a couple of the unresolved Threeboot plot points will be addressed in Lo3W. I could see Johns having Threeboot Projectra defect to the LSV for a few panels as a bone to the Threeboot readers. (Of course, something like that would be handled in very cursory fashion before she is killed or we jump back to Superboy Prime and the 31st Century Green Lantern.)
Posted by Arm Fall Off Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by Subliminal Kid: Who needs the Hardback now that you know how disappointingly this resolves.
This was something I was thinking about. Not that I would have bought he TPB anyway, but we should all, 100%, boycott the Enemy Manifest TPB. I hope my LCS won't order a single copy. The way I look at it, trades collect complete story arcs, and with this crap as the final part...the story arc has no fitting ending.
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
Well, now that I've had a chance to reread it.
lol, just joking.
I didn't reread it.
Posted by kcekada on :
quote:Originally posted by Vee: The only 2 positive points are a one panel shot of Wildfire and the return of Nura.
I for one am very disappointed and how this was handled.
AGREED!
The art was really sub-standard. And the entire issue I was waiting to see Projectra! Hopefully, we'll get a better conclusion in L3W.
Posted by Phantom Girl on :
Last night I read issue #49-50. I intentionally kept my opinion to myself unless I had something positive to say about the current Legion of Super-Hereos comic. After high school I stopped buying comics (I only bought Legion) but in 2005 I returned to and started buying the archive books, then moving on to the current series and finally back issues of other Legion comic lines.
My understanding is that the earlier issues of the current series were not that popular here on Legion World. When I read them I found myself laughing a lot at the humor that was interjected within and found it to be a welcomed change to the Legion comic I recall. I accepted the fact that characters would look different, possibly act different, that art had changed, names would be changed, and so on. I found the whole "Underager" idea silly and I thought the villain (Lemnos was it?) pretty boring/flat, but overall, I enjoyed most of the issues.
When they brought Supergirl back and I was thrilled. When it started out I loved it. I Liked seeing Kara (I still miss her and Superboy in my Legion). I accepted the fact that this was a revison and that things beyond my comprehension had changed with the DC Infinite Crisis thingy and so facts change on how characters meet and so on. Accepting it as something new I was ok with it. Supergirl's departure was a disappointment, I didn't like how everything was wrapped up so fast and neat at the end. The absence of Cosmic Boy I didn't like at all.
Then we moved on to the Jim Shooter issues. When I heard his name come up as the writer, I was thrilled. I thought to myself "This will be great". I thought things started out slow for the first couple of issues but I had faith it was building up to something awesome. I'd read the comments posted here by others and some I'd agree with, others I thought were greatly exagerated; some found nearly everything offensive. I tried staying out of the discusssions and debates because I wanted everything to turn out well and I do believe it isn't fair to throw arms up into the air and shout at the top of my lungs about things until I see the whole picture; so I waited.
As the series continued I found myself annoyed by the use of the futeristic swearing. It's not that I was offended by it, its just that it seem so out-of-place and came up way to often. These Legionnaires had way to much of a potty mouth. The implied nudity/sex bothered me as well because there was to much of it and I would have preferred it without. It didn't offend me morally, it's just that I would have liked the comic so much more if they had replaced the nudity with romance.
At this point I thought the plot was floundering and going nowhere. I also felt like I wasn't reading a Legion comic other than in name only. The Legionnaires spent so much time fighting with one-another, not just verbally but physically. I hated the attacks of Timber Wolf on the other Legionnaires. Had this been real and not a comic, that guy would have been kicked off the team so fast. I thought having him essentially look the other way when Projectra attacked Phantom Girl was horrible characterization and representation of what the Legion should be. He doesn't do anything about it, waits for Projectra to walk away, activates the emergency response on her ring, and walks away leaving her to bleed to death. Obviously he wanted others to find her or he wouldn't have done the ring thing, but still, him not doing anything about it and even worse, walking away afterwards had to be about the worst characterization of any Legionnaire I have ever seen. I guess I wouldn't want someone like that on my team much less serving as a protector of the planet and galaxy. Terrible writing and portrayal of what the Legion is all about.
This was all to different from the original series for me. Now I understand that such changes were intentional and that's fine, what I am saying is that I never warmed up to those changes. Then we get to all the rumors and in house issues with DC starting to come to a head. The comic is cut short by what 4 issues? Not good.
I had hoped that with things not working out with Shooter, that DC would have let him finish his story. Even though I didn't enjoy his run (other than a couple of issues); even though I liked where he started to go with a plot, and then ended up hating the direction he eventually took it, I thought, "Let him finish before you bring in a new writer." It turns out that DC decided to pull the plug on the comic totally, another call I didn't like. I had hoped another writer would come in and hopefully turn the comic into something I was liking a lot. Guess it wasn't meant to be.
So much of this series I didn't like. Plots were left daggling and unfinished (not completing the Projectra plot I thought was the worst thing). I don't really care if they bring her into the Legion of 3 Worlds as a bad guy now (I'd rather they just forgot about this series entirely). I'd rather they just let it go at this point and not bother to wrap up loose ends in another comic.
So here we are, even though I didn't enjoy Shooters storyline overall, we come to a crash landing. DC most likely changed the ending considerably. I found the whole data ripper concept "ok" up until it was clear there was no villain behind it. "SPLAT"! Not having a conclusion to the Projectra plot "DOUBLE SPLAT"! The constant fighting between Legionnaires "THREE SPLATS AND YOUR OUT"!
So where does this leave me? Well I don't plan on going away again that's for sure. The entire time between high school and 2005, I regretted not buying Legion comics and keeping up with it. I remember waling into the store and looking at them on the shelf, seeing how everything had changed and I figured I was so far behind the times that I'd let it go. I also felt kinda silly buying comics again, so I didn't. I won't make those mistakes again.
My patience with Legion and DC may be longer than others but that's most likely due to the fact that I've been gone for so long. I'll continue buying what Legion is out there and enjoying what I can from it, leaving the rest behind. I'll continue working on my game and eventually include these different versions of the characters as well.
So regardless of how this series ended, I do believe another will rise from the dust. My hopes are that rather than restart the series over again I would like to see DC simply start new adventures, using the original characters and saying "These adventures take place between these two points in time of the original series. I would like to see the DC company look forward and backward into the original series and direct their stories to line up with the eventual history that has already been written. I don't care anything about how the Crisis things changed the DC Universe and how it affected the Legion. I'm simple, I just want good stories, no long story arcs (3 issues per story, with the 4th issue sort of a spotlight on a couple of characters, then moving on to another 3 comic storyline). Yep, I'd be happy with that. Do I expect this? "NO" of coarse not. Do I expect DC to do better than this last series? "Absolutely". Do I expect DC to learn from thier mistakes? "Of coarse I do".
[ February 01, 2009, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: Phantom Girl ]
Posted by doublechinner on :
I'm late to the party as usual but it's too important a moment not to throw in my 2 cents.
Did I think this ish was as bad as most of you do? Probably not. The art was halfway decent, and I can't fault the artist for not knowing how to handle Gazelle. Francis handled her differently in different issues, and she's a newbie. Likewise, reading the story for its own sake, it wasn't seriously worse than the last Shooter issues (in fact, it felt so much like Shooter I think it WAS Shooter). Unfortunately, like so much of Legion since the turn of this century, this was ALL buildup and NO payoff. I loved the idea of a universe-wide quantum computing intelligence intent on wiping out all life. Very cool. BUT, if Brainy can upload Legionnaires into that reality and track them, he can certainly affect that reality. It doesn't require Lyle's "Extreme Makeover: Wuss Addition" to unlock the key to this virtual world. The logic is tissue paper. Very bad. Likewise, a malevolent bunch of brain-head females? Why am I not surprised? (Shooter has women issues!) Why did they wait so long to wipe out the "real" world? Besides, there's lots of cool theory that our "real" world is in fact a hologram of a higher-dimensional reality. Why not play off that? IF you are gonna introduce big-think sci-fi ideas in Legion, as DnA and now Shooter have done, and/or tell LOONNNGGG multi-issue epics, as DnA, Waid and Shooter have done, you better have some serious payoff. The Legion hasn't seem a climax worthy of the buildup since Legion Lost. That is lame, lame, lame!
But enough of that. I could complain about the abandonment of the Projectra story, but frankly I hated it, it least in execution, if not in concept. Consequences from Orando's destruction and Terror Firma's seeming clemency? Absolutely! Projectra as all-powerful mistress of the ID? Maybe, but I rarely enjoy seeing one Legionnaire destroy another, and I had to see too much of that the last 2 issues. I won't miss that story.
But even more broadly, I don't know how we could have expected the 3Boot to end as anything other than a trainwreck. It's been a trainwreck from the beginning. The limboizing of the 2Boot, despite it's deep connections to the present day DCU. The supposedly brilliant ideas of Waid that never seemed to show up in the printed comic. Waid's distraction by "52," which I really think is the ONLY project he's cared about in the last 4 years. The sheer impossibility of Barry Kitson, God bless him, drawing 30 pages a month (add in his near-crippling hand injury). The obvious intentional lack of communication going on amongst DC editorial and the creatives. The re-appearance of the "original" Legion just as the 3boot gets going, with NO coordination among the books. DiDio throwing Supergirl into the 3boot because he doesn't know what else to do with her, and he doesn't know how to deal with a Waid Legion and Johns Legion appearing simultaneously. Shooter's hired, but the commitment is lacking from the get-go, and Shooter's work doesn't set the world on fire anyway, getting more hackneyed and misogynist as his run progresses.
I could keep on going, but all of this points to DC editorial that REALLY doesn't know where it's going from one second to the next. The clost DC comes to a coherent creative direction is "whatever Morrison and Johns want." Now, I don't think that's a bad plan, per se, but they have repeatedly shown that they can't even implement that plan successfully (Countdown and Death of the New Gods, anyone?). Given that lack of direction, and the collateral damage the 3boot caused before its first issue, how could this end any differently?
The best hope for the Legion is that Johns DOES want to write the book. Because at this point, I don't think DiDio could recruit any other competent professionals to do it. And THAT'S what makes me SO angry. The Legion was always a hard sell to comics creators. So much to draw, so many moving parts to keep track of. If Curt Swan hated doing it, THAT'S a hard sell. And now, this travesty is gonna make it an even harder sell. Every version of the Legion since 1989 (that's 20 years!) has been rebooted, wiped out, abandoned. Why sign on to that? Only really green artists eager to prove their chops and quickly move on to something better would ever draw this book. Why try and seriously add something to the history of the Legion? Future history is a sandcastle wiped out by tides of indifference and incompetence. So, only someone with the influence of Geoff Johns could get the Legion back on track. I hope he does. I hope he realizes that the mess he's helped make worse is now his responsibility to fix.
Posted by Omni Craig on :
I'm rather late here too, but I have to agree with virtually everyone here...this issue was pure drek with a side of indifference.
The thing I can't get my head around is (IMHO) DC truncated Jim's 16 issue run so the threeboot would be gone by the time Final Crisis/Lo3W ended. With all the delays to both Final Crisis and the Legion mini, Shooter and Manapul would have had the time to squeeze in those last few issues and we'd have had a more satisfying conclusion (again, my opinion here)!
This boot of the Legion hasn't been my favorite (I'm definitely a preboot Crisis fanboy), but I always look for the positives of every Legion boot, even if it is the people behind the scenes working on it. This was not a happy ending, or even really an ending at all. It also taints the 50th anniversary wrap up yet again (what a lousy 50th...the cartoon is cancelled, and both the Legion books). It reminds me of a company I used to work for: We spent a few years moving our existing customer base from an old computer product to a new platform. We had a 50/50 party when we reached the halfway point, and there were parties and prizes and general merriment. Two days later a visiting VP told our office we were all being downsized. Like they didn't know that when they had the party?? Ah, memories...
Thanks for whizzing on the campfire, DC!
And on a non-sarcastic and appreciative note, thanks to fjm for being part of our little community. I know many of us look forward to your next work. You are a class act, and I will gladly keep buying your stuff!
Ending this post on the bright side...Lo3W #3's preview is up now on Newsarama, and it looks pretty darn good!!!
-LLL!!!
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
From CBR, here's a link that may prove interesting:
Now, whats interesting is what i will copy and paste here...
"CBR: Let's discuss the end of your run on "Action Comics." J.D. Finn was credited as writing the conclusion to your storyline, not you. Are you or are you not J.D. Finn? Because I remember reading your script for "Action Comics" #825 and it was quite different from Finn's story.
Austen: No. I think Eddie is J.D Finn. Maybe. That's a guess. I had a completely different ending in mind, one that left Gog a major villain, and…I mean let's be honest…I was ashamed of this initially, but let's just get this out there: I was fired and blackballed from DC. I was off Superman, period. It became complicated very quickly, from there. I was given the option of finishing the final issue of the arc I had begun, but being suddenly, and very unexpectedly, unemployed, I needed to find work right away doing something else. I was given the option to still write for DC, but not on Superman or any other top, or even mid-level character. I would have had to write under a pseudonym and take some lower tier project like "Prez" or "Blue Devil" that would have probably lasted an issue, and then I'd be out of comics, anyway. I turned that down because I knew that there were people who do like my work and I didn't want to go out with two strikes against me, I wanted to have the opportunity for anyone who did like my work to find it. So I went back to a hectic animation job that left me no time to finish my final script in the week allotted and they got "JD Finn" to do it."
Maybe it's just me, but anyone notice a kind of pattern here, if this is true?
If it is, it sounds to me like Mike Marts may have finished this up. Sounds like Mike Marts was involved with the same type of situation, a run ending and there being problems with the writer, once at marvel, once at DC. And from what i remember, Justin Thyme was used at Marvel first. I may be wrong on this. And maybe i am reaching. And i use the DC reference here, but the marvel reference is in the story in another spot.
What do you think?
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
my first reaction to #50? relief, actually.
relief that it's over. This is not a title to mourn. Shooter's run was not without merit, but neither was it one to be adored for years to come, even before its premature shortening.
The main accomplishment of this entire 50-issue run is that the Reboot era at its worst (v.4 80-121) now looks a bit better. So does Conway.
Unfortunately, it otherwise mainly stands as a blemish on the resumes of two otherwise worthy writers.
The main crime of #50, other than its replacement of the Shooter script, was the omission of the Projectra storyline. Other than that, it was a forced ending to a story that went on too long anyway, and offered mostly predictable results. The mutiple words/universe-ending thread rang hollow as a last-min intro... but I didn't care. It was a fitting end to an entire run marred by unsatisfactory conclusions.
When all is said and done, I really found very little to care whether this version ever appears again (L3W or not).
five years ago, I assuemd this new book was better than having no Legion book at all. I was wrong. I would rather see DC let the Legion lie fallow for a while than to inflict another ill-advised revisioning ('boot or not), and I hope the 'merged Legions' hinted at is either a red herring or something short of a complete shuffling of rosters; the only merged Leginos I can envision is an intact Johns Neoclassic Legion with the characters from Re and Three that do not otherwise overlap: XS, Shakari, and (if we have to have anyone from Threeboot) the newer Shooter creations.
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
rick, interesting, but as I'm not familiar with Austen or any of his work I really have nothing to add.
Craig, if the story was worth 16 issues, I'd agree. But all along it's felt like it's been too drawn out. It would have worked better as a trilogy of 4-parters than the Never-Ending Story.
doub, I fully agree.
PG, good points. There were funny moments and good bits, I concede... but too few and far between amongst too many stories that fell flat.
Posted by Ricardo on :
I'm with Rick Shaw. And I deeply regret people daring to compare the awful Reboot with the class act Shooter and Manapul pulled from W&K's-burdened-by-DC-Editorial run. I think people sometimes take a bit too seriously their favorite character's absence (or appearance) as a sign of how good a run is. It's about storytelling. I think Shooter had it all, except he was ran over lots of times during this dreaded run. Just read again all his interviews to see that the work he was hired to do was never meant to be done from the begining. And this is probably true with Waid & Kitson too. In fact, Waid best runs usually pay off long term (his Flash run was by far my favorite - much better than Johns and almost as good as Messner-Loebs). But, nooooo, the only two guys who can do whatever they want are Johns and Morrison. These guys are untouchable. Pft.
Posted by Matthew E on :
My review is up. Go ahead and tear into it.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
I didn't tear into it, but i did disagree with your overall assessment of the book. Nice Blog, by the way.
Posted by Sketch Lad on :
I have a very similiar opinion to Matthew's on this issue, though not the same sentiment for this entire threeboot. I don't think I'll spend much time missing it, or re-reading it.
Posted by Candle on :
Yes, well . . . I enjoyed most of the Reboot and absolutely hated some of the basics of 3boot and almost all of Shooter's run.
But, that's not really the issue. I thing 'someone' in power DIDN'T like what was being done to Projectra and Brin and Imra and Jo and Garth. So that whole last issue that Shooter had planned, which would finish his trashing of them, was DROPPED.
At the least, the idea of a Legionnaire 'going bad' is trite. We've already had Cos as the Trapper and EL as the Progenitor.
Trite and not worth the destruction of those two characters. Even Imra, Garth and Jo has been done before!
We've even seen two of the four candidates before. Gazelle is a mediocre hero, who's probably a bad guy in Shooters over all plan, for all we know. Sizzle was the only really interesting one.
And the planet rippers weren't that much different from DnA's first bad people. The ending was at least a tiny bit original with a virtual race, although they looked and acted a LOT like Terry Pratchett's elves.
I'm with Sketch ~ the final story art wasn't that bad, I got it Saturday. Lindsay is the inker and he inked fjm so I could see some carry over in the art.
The story wasn't very good but the whole story arc wasn't set up for it to be very good, even though it was shortened.
I think Levitz has a very strong caring for the Legion and he's stepped in before. I think Shooter was going to trash too many characters and DC decided they didn't want his contribution after all. Just my point of view.
As to Johns, I hope he loves the Legion. I hope we see Sizzle and XS and Gates and Umbra in the new Legion. I'd enjoy Supergirl, too.
Posted by Casaloki on :
Just bought it here at my local Comics Dealer in Germany. Oh dear, they should not write "Final issue" but "Don't touch this" on the cover. This is not just a funeral for the Legion, it's like Final Crisis happend not only to the monitors. That's how you end this forever. What a pitty. How will you ever find a new genration of readers and loyal fans with this? You must imagine: There is this Legion on TV, you have never heard of them and go to the local comic store to see, what the buzz is all about. And then you find this crap. DC did everything wrong with this Legion-run, but they did one thing right for sure: No one will ever want to read this again. My only hope is Lo3w.
Posted by Matthew E on :
quote:Originally posted by rickshaw1: Nice Blog, by the way.
Thanks. Stop by anytime.
Posted by Kid Quislet on :
After finishing #50 this weekend, I am in general agreement with the majority of posters here. This issue left me with a confirmed opinion that TPTB consider this Legion run as an afterthought compared to its other titles. The choice to cut the series short by four issues led to a terribly unrewarding finish to the run.
I am committed to seeing the end to the Lo3W (if it ever happens), and I want to try REBELS, but the Legion #50 "conclusion" has already determined that I will NOT follow Adventure, or any of the Mon-El appearances in the Superman titles. Along with the Final Crisis confusion, the lack of any commitment towards this past Legion title has decided for me that I will scale back my interest in purchasing DC comics. I've just plain lost interest - the entertainment content has just not been worth the Three Bucks plus I've been shelling out.
I just went to my local library and took out the Watchmen graphic novel to re-read it before I see the movie.
Posted by Candle on :
quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: My review is up. Go ahead and tear into it.
Nice job. You reminded me, in you 2 panels, what I DID like about 3boot.
I liked the involvement of kids in general.
I hated that their parents were all in some conspiricy to keep them in the house and were willing to kill them if they didn't agree.
I have always thought that the idea of kids getting together because they're more accepting of differences than adults is probably fairly sound. What I don't buy is that parents, by definition, are the enemy.
Since I was willing to go with the idea of kids working together better, the fighting between legionnaires was just unacceptable to me.
The orignal L.E.G.I.O.N. dynamics that Waid and Kitson created ~ Brainic on one side and everyone else struggling to contain his ambitions, just didn't work for me, here.
Anyway, thanks for the blog and art. I hope you CAN come up with a story that works for everyone.
Posted by jimgallagher on :
I loved Kitson's artwork. Otherwise, this series pretty much sucked through and through. Next!
Posted by future king on :
There was nothing wrong with the Waid/Kitson run (except for those items mentioned before (ie: the two seperate camps led by Briany and Cos and the "eat it grandpa" ideology) but let's be honest, Waid was just starting to get his feet wet when the DC powers wanted to slow things down with the whole Dominators plot line and then the Supergirl inclusion which made the series lose its focus a whole lot. That's when the problems began. Given time we would have seen the seeds Waid had planted see fruition, but he probably saw the writing on the wall (this project was no longer his to have his creative freedom with as promised) and so he left (with Kitson). My problem with Shooter's run was that he completely turned away from what was done so far and just decided to do his own thing. That's fine, that was his creative choice, but doing that changed the characters and back-story so much that it wasn't the same comic anymore. That made all of our heads spin in mass confusion, and things just sort of spiraled downward from there (in my opinion). Don't get me wrong, I truly enjoyed the new story Shooter was telling towards the end there, but it had become a different book altogether!
I felt Waid and Kitson's version was a breath of fresh air and a unique spin on what had been done before. Their Legion wasn't just the future's Justice League but a whole new group with different agendas and beliefs as well as the heroism that each character showed despite which camp (or leader) they leaned toward. This was an innovative approach to telling the Legion's story that I dare any future writers of the series to match. I really can't see that happening.
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
quote:Originally posted by Candle: But, that's not really the issue. I thing 'someone' in power DIDN'T like what was being done to Projectra and Brin and Imra and Jo and Garth. So that whole last issue that Shooter had planned, which would finish his trashing of them, was DROPPED.
That makes complete sense. If that was Levitz, I can't blame him. It was a mercy killing no matter how you slice it.
quote:Originally posted by Candle: At the least, the idea of a Legionnaire 'going bad' is trite. We've already had Cos as the Trapper and EL as the Progenitor...
Even Imra, Garth and Jo has been done before!
...And the planet rippers weren't that much different from DnA's first bad people.
Good points. Wonder how much of Shooter has even read of the intervening years.
quote:Originally posted by Candle: Sizzle was the only really interesting one.
She had potential, but I didn't see enough to even say that much about her.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
quote:Originally posted by Blockade Boy: Well, now that I've had a chance to reread it.
lol, just joking.
I didn't reread it.
That literally made me laugh out loud.
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
Future King, Waid started drifting off track as early as #4, and completely blew it by the conclusion of the Lemnos arc, well before Supergirl or the Dominators. Don't forget how he also squandered the momentum of the "Wanderers"/LSV, too. I cannot absolve him of too much.
Posted by Ricardo on :
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
quote:Originally posted by Candle: [qb]But, that's not really the issue. I thing 'someone' in power DIDN'T like what was being done to Projectra and Brin and Imra and Jo and Garth. So that whole last issue that Shooter had planned, which would finish his trashing of them, was DROPPED.
That makes complete sense. If that was Levitz, I can't blame him. It was a mercy killing no matter how you slice it.
It doesn't, in my opinion and on logic. Shooter was hired based on a 16-issue proposal Mike Marts and Dan Didio must have approved. They knew what would happen. Point is: DC has no real idea on what they want or where they are going, and that's even more true with LSH. Adventure Comics was a last-minute idea thrown out into the wild and now they have no idea what to do with that. Simply put: DC decided to change Shooter's plans to the point he felt it was no longer his minimal idea for the book and he fortunately quit. Nobody in his own mind would use a real name on such piece of garbage.
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
I didn't see the original proposal, nor do I know how much Shooter deviated (by choice or not).
Even if Shooter was following the proposal verbatim, there is often a difference between concept and execution. People can look at words on a page and envision completely different things.
I am not aware that approval of a proposal equals carte blanche control over a book. Like it or not, owners/editors always have final say, and the right to change thier minds. It's their book and thier characters.
"In the tiger's lair, justice belongs to the tiger" (Archie Goodwin).
But I will agree that DC seems to be changing its mind a lot lately, regardless of whether Levitz intervened or not.
Posted by Gaseous Lad on :
Wow.
I stopped buying this several months ago. I'm glad with my decision, but I'm sorry to see that things got worse with Shooter's run before this disaster. I'd always hoped that there would be a decent resolve that would give me an excuse to pick up the back issues.
I'm also sad that this was a waste of time for the last several years. I really enjoyed the reboot at certain times (I also was bored by it at certain times, but I have more fond memories than not). And given the toilet-flushing Waid and the PTB gave them, I held a lot of interest in the initial Waid/Kitson run.
Oh well...
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
Well, I liked the alien invaders, their look and their virtual planet. Brainy with blasters. Brainy under the forcefield, programming away, with monsters crawling all over it.
Why Brainy didn't put a forcefield over the whole room, to protect himself and the other legionnaires, who knows. Maybe his forcefield doesn't extend that far in this version, even if he can program it into the virtual world.
The Gazelle-Invisible Kid thing was awful, unnecessary. Those panels could have been used to explain what happened with Projectra, either resolved (in flashback) or make it clear that she and her threats are on hold until the aliens are dealt with.
FJM's wraparound cover was great. We even got a variety of different invaders - a female, a sea-creature type, a lizard-guy type, an insect-type - which we sadly never got to see in action. I loved the battle on the bridge idea. Two opposing ideas meet on a bridge to fight it out. A classic symbolic concept.
Posted by insanelad on :
After putting it off for a few days, I read it today, and while it could have been worse, this was a lackluster effort all round I think.
Virtual aliens: looked like pink versions of the Kaminoans from Attack of the Clones.
Clones: glossed over, deus ex macchina badly done.
Attck on the Virtual-verse: why sned Gazelle? Why send Invisible Kid? Why send Atom Girl? Hardly power-players. It just didn't make sense, other than the Gazelle/Lyle nonesense. (My, she's a fickle girl!)
I'll add my voice to the no Projectra, Brin, Tinya resolution.
This was almost a non-resolution. It was just bad. Not even bad enough to be good. Not even in a Silver Age simplistic way. It was just poor. If multiple invader planets had just appeared, why wasn't the system/galaxy collapsing due to the gravity effects? No reference to that at all!
I think one of the (many) problems with this issue was that it just compared *really* badly against other books. Readers today are more eductated and more visually aware - this didn't pass mustard on many levels. The art wasn't *that* bad, but it was inconsistent. I can draw very well indeed, but I doubt that I could do an issue of a comic book in the undoubtedly short deadline that this was pushed out in. But neither was it up to the levels that we th audience expect in a regular issue, let alone a final issue. The dialogue was awful, even I was nodding off at the beginning. I know that was the point, Brainy was being dull, but comic books are supposed to be EXCITING. This was just a little dull from start to finish.
As I've said before, the Legion means a lot to me, I have a strong emotional tie to it, it helped me through rough times with simple, enjoyable escapism and a snese of belonging. This issue was far, far from that. I didn't mind the 3Boot, it was far from perfect, but at least I got my Legion fix. This denied me even that. I've enjoyed all the other versions, but I think this is the first time I can honestly say I disliked the book.
Shame on you DC for publishing this.
Posted by The Man From Cargg on :
The simplistic story-telling, teen crushes and upbeat ending reminded me of the Legion in the 31st Century book that was based on the cartoon.
I wonder if one of those writers wrote this story.
Posted by Ricardo on :
If you guys are following this, doesn't it make sense that Legion #50, the crappiest issue ever, must be also returnable?
Moreover, as you can all see, DC is completely flip-flopping on Adventure Comics, on Superman, on everything related to the Superman books (and the Legion, its newest supporting characters, along with Krypto and 10k Kryptonians.
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
I'll keep it, unless I opt unload the whole run someday.
Legion on the Run at least had the death of Laurel issue as a poignant book-end (assuming one counts EoaE as a seperate event, as I do).
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
Now we have a link to a link. Posted by Arm Fall Off Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by Ricardo: If you guys are following this, doesn't it make sense that Legion #50, the crappiest issue ever, must be also returnable?
Moreover, as you can all see, DC is completely flip-flopping on Adventure Comics, on Superman, on everything related to the Superman books (and the Legion, its newest supporting characters, along with Krypto and 10k Kryptonians.
Worse than that. It's 100,000 Kryptonians.
Posted by stuorstew on :
quote:Originally posted by The Man From Cargg: The simplistic story-telling, teen crushes and upbeat ending reminded me of the Legion in the 31st Century book that was based on the cartoon.
I wonder if one of those writers wrote this story.
I do not think so as on the whole that series was excellent, this issue however not so much.
As others have said this reads like committee writing or perhaps whoever did write the book was given very little time and the briefest of plot synopsis and did the best they could with the time and information they had. This would also explain the clearly rushed art.
If this is the case then perhaps DC left their name off it to take the blame away from the writer and deflect it on to Dan Didio (as recipient of all blame). This then would correlate with Keith Giffens claims that Dan Didio is willing to 'take one for the team' as it were regardless if he was responsible or not.
Posted by Candle on :
quote:Originally posted by insanelad: I can draw very well indeed, but I doubt that I could do an issue of a comic book in the undoubtedly short deadline that this was pushed out in.
Really? You could draw a comic? And a good one? Wowhooooo! That's fantastic! I mean that sincerely. This is an impressive group sometimes! We just never know who's hanging around!
(Love the Brainy SP avatar.)
Posted by Candle on :
quote:Originally posted by Ricardo:
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
quote:Originally posted by Candle: [qb]But, that's not really the issue. I thing 'someone' in power DIDN'T like what was being done to Projectra and Brin and Imra and Jo and Garth. So that whole last issue that Shooter had planned, which would finish his trashing of them, was DROPPED.
That makes complete sense. If that was Levitz, I can't blame him. It was a mercy killing no matter how you slice it.
It doesn't, in my opinion and on logic. Shooter was hired based on a 16-issue proposal Mike Marts and Dan Didio must have approved. They knew what would happen. Point is: DC has no real idea on what they want or where they are going, and that's even more true with LSH. Adventure Comics was a last-minute idea thrown out into the wild and now they have no idea what to do with that. Simply put: DC decided to change Shooter's plans to the point he felt it was no longer his minimal idea for the book and he fortunately quit. Nobody in his own mind would use a real name on such piece of garbage.
From what I've read here and during the Shooter interview, Shooter had a major falling out with TPTB. I just think there was a story related issue(s). You can pitch whatever you want AND get it approved ~then make some intentional or even accidental story changes or additions along the way (remember those Asparagus people.)
It's just conjecture, but Shooter DOES have a big enough ego and the experience to do something like that.
He just didn't make much of an effort in the last couple of issues to bring things to a place where a satisphying conclusion could be reached in a last issue. I think maybe that's way the last issue was shortened ~ the artist and writer couldn't get a longer one done at deadline.
This is all just me thinking about stuff, an idea or two thrown out there. I certainly don't KNOW anything more than anyone else here.
I agree that DC can't keep their directions straight, though.
Kitson said that he and Waid were supposed to have Supergirl permanently in their control as part of the Legion. I seem to remember him also saying it was TPTB who proposed it because they wanted to eliminate her from the mainstream DCU. Then, someone must have come up with the New Krypton idea, or her book got more popular or something. So, no more Supergirl, just like that.
Oh well.
Thanks for the comments, KS! I just like Sizzle's look and youth and power potential ~ she might have turned into a dud. I just felt I needed to say something positive about Shooter. sigh
Posted by Candle on :
quote:Originally posted by stuorstew: If this is the case then perhaps DC left their name off it to take the blame away from the writer and deflect it on to Dan Didio (as recipient of all blame). This then would correlate with Keith Giffens claims that Dan Didio is willing to 'take one for the team' as it were regardless if he was responsible or not.
That's a very good point and very refreshing. I don't disagree with everyone's dissatisfaction with Dido, but your point is fair, I think.
Posted by jimgallagher on :
I wish they would've just delayed the issue and produced a better product. It's not like they've never missed a deadline before. This issue was hardly worthy of being haled as the final issue of the Legion's 50th anniversary celebration.
Posted by Candle on :
yah. Posted by insanelad on :
quote:Originally posted by Candle:
quote:Originally posted by insanelad: I can draw very well indeed, but I doubt that I could do an issue of a comic book in the undoubtedly short deadline that this was pushed out in.
Really? You could draw a comic? And a good one? Wowhooooo! That's fantastic! I mean that sincerely. This is an impressive group sometimes! We just never know who's hanging around!
(Love the Brainy SP avatar.)
Yes, I could draw a comic, but not very speedily! lol That would take practice and fewer committments than I have at the moment! There's a reason these guys do it for a living! I did do an issue of a comic a friend wrote, but nothing ever cam of it : ( I was looking at the artwork recently and got all nostalgic!
I've often wondered about getting into the industry, but I worry about having to churn stuff out, and not your own stuff, whether I'd lose my joy of drawing... grass is always greener ; )
Posted by Arm Fall Off Boy on :
Variation on a theme. I didn't think it deserved its own thread, but...
I sent an email to Paul Levitz, short and to the point, about how disappointed we were as fans and that a group with such history deserved better. I put a link to this thread in the email.
He replied! He said he appreciated my concerns and that he has "a hard time being objective about the Legion since my own long affiliation" but that he would pass my/our concerns along to the editors.
Only problem is, since it is a defunct book, will it do any good?
I do appreciate the class he showed in replying, however.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Arm Fall Off Boy...very nice. Classy.
And while i didn't expect a reply from Mr. Levitz to you, that just shows how classy he is as well. Just wish some of the class that the former creators and the fans here show would end up on the regular book page.
Posted by Matthew E on :
That's consistent with the several interactions I've had with Paul Levitz. And this isn't meant to be a criticism of him, but:
it's possible that part of the reason why the Legion has been kicked around the way it has is because Paul Levitz, in an effort to be fair, doesn't do anything to protect it, even to the extent that he would try to protect one of DC's other franchises.
Posted by matlock on :
Frankly, I wish he'd be a little more partisan. What's the good of being the boss if you don't get a few perks? Like making sure the fans of the book you are most closely identified with creatively don't get treated so poorly.
Posted by Chemical King on :
Wow, I finally got the issue and have to say.... HUH???
I read it, thought it was rather lame but kind of okayish compared to Waids lame-fest before, and then after reading it - by the way, sitting in the restroom, a very fitting place I guess - I stood up, went to my collection, put it into the correct folder, stood there and then, suddenly, it struck me....
WHERE WAS PROJECTRA????????
I mean, #49 was a pretty good issue, building up to a major climax leaving Tinya severely injured and Imra brainwashed... and then... this???
It's really the ultimate infamy to dish out an issue like this which has actually nothing to do with most storyelements which came before. It's an infamy to the customers who spend 3 damn bucks on such a load of crap! It's the climax of infamies done by DC.
And this is saying a lot after the total and utter jibberish that Final Crisis was, but hey - that's Morrison and I just don't understand it as I am told - but this is the final straw. I don't know what to do with DC. I love the DCU and many of its creations, but how can I go on spending money on it when it's such an utter load of crap?
My conclusion: I'll only buy the Green Lantern books for the time being, and JSA - even though I'm skeptical on Johns leaving, but Willingham is a great writer to follow him.
Everything else has to go. No more "events", no more JLA, no more Titans - another crapfest - no more cool books of the month. I'm suddenly free to spend some money on interesting Indie books - thank you, Dan DiDio!!!!
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Yeah, lot of that going around.
Posted by Grimbor on :
I am totally disgusted after reading LSH 50.
The only plausible excuse I can get for TPTB ending the series the way they did was because they just didn't like what Shooter was doing to the characters in general. Primarily Imra, Garth, Jo and Projectra.
But then I think about other things that have happened over the years to even more beloved characters like Element Lad / Progenitor and I am not sure that theory holds water.
I guess it is all just speculation until Didio or someone from DC steps up to let the fans know what the hell happened.
I definitely feel like I have been slapped in the face with the way that story-arc and series ended. The quality story and art happening over in L3W isn't even enough to take away the sting.
I don't post on here very often, but I have been reading Legion for about 35 years. Been through the good and the bad. But I don't EVER remember having felt as cheated as I do now.
Posted by Ricardo on :
quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: That's consistent with the several interactions I've had with Paul Levitz. And this isn't meant to be a criticism of him, but:
it's possible that part of the reason why the Legion has been kicked around the way it has is because Paul Levitz, in an effort to be fair, doesn't do anything to protect it, even to the extent that he would try to protect one of DC's other franchises.
It makes sense. Moreover, his job these days is much less about "general book directions" and more about broad business ideas and schmaltzing. So I don't think Levitz would go that far down to personally kick around about one book. He supposedly hates 5YL and still supported it as far as I know. And he is really a class act: I still have his letter with answers to my ridiculously badly written one (my English was not really strong back then), sent 19 years ago. All personally answered, there was no "bulk" stationary crap. That's probably why I never read a bad thing about Levitz.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
I think it bothers him to know what has happened with the book, but I also think he is in a place where, even though he is one of the big bosses, he has more to think about than just one unhappy segment.
Everyone keeps saying that Dan Didio is a really nice guy...and that may be the problem. Nice guys get walked over. Even guys that just try to be decent and fair.
Sometimes, it takes an ahole to come in and light a fire under people. Shooter might have been hated at marvel, but the product came out on time. And, marvel did pretty well back then from what i understand.
To get things done, it takes a firm hand on the reigns.
Posted by Ricardo on :
Ouch! Let's say this is the final nail in the coffin for my respect for Dan Didio as a manager. From CBR live coverage of DC Nation at NYCC:
- What happened to the end of Shooter's Legion of Super-Heroes? DiDio: We don't cover that. It was a pseudonym at the author's request. We cancelled the book, finished it and shoved it out the door. Thanks for asking that.
No, Dan, thank YOU for being so nice to us and to a pro like Shooter.
Posted by Awkward Pause Boy on :
Painful, but oddly funny too.
Posted by Zero Kahn on :
The really bad thing about this whole thing is the same thing that was really bad about the end of the 5YL run. Missed oportunity for a balls to the wall anything goes story. I mean lets face it the chances of the 3Boot Legion being seen again after Legion of 3 Worlds is probably pretty slim, and for good reason. We all know that it is going to be Johns semi-classic version that is going to be back when all the dust settles, and I am happy about that.
But knowing that they could have gone wild with end of the 3boot and just blown the doors off the thing. Instead they gave us a patheitc ending that satisfied no one. Event he 3boot deserved better than this for a climax.
Posted by Pariscub on :
Question asked to Didio at the NYCC
- What happened to the end of Shooter's Legion of Super-Heroes? DiDio: We don't cover that. It was a pseudonym at the author's request. We cancelled the book, finished it and shoved it out the door. Thanks for asking that.
Posted by veryvery on :
wait so.... shooter DID write it or DIDN'T? what... does that sentence mean? ;_; i'm not wearing my didio-decoder ring.
Posted by veryvery on :
wait wait wait. reading this thread over...
so... if it's shooter or levitz's fault, we give them a pass and suddenly it's "man, we feel so much pity for them" but if it's NOT their fault, it's "THIS BOOK WAS HORRIBLE AND DAN DIDIO'S HORRIBLE AND SHOULD BE FIRED". wow.
again, i do not envy mr. didio's job.
Posted by Legion Tracker on :
quote:Originally posted by veryvery: so... if it's shooter or levitz's fault, we give them a pass and suddenly it's "man, we feel so much pity for them" but if it's NOT their fault, it's "THIS BOOK WAS HORRIBLE AND DAN DIDIO'S HORRIBLE AND SHOULD BE FIRED". wow.
again, i do not envy mr. didio's job.[/QB]
No, I think it was horrible no matter who did it. And no matter what circumstances caused it (forgivable or not), it's still horrible.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by veryvery: wait wait wait. reading this thread over...
so... if it's shooter or levitz's fault, we give them a pass and suddenly it's "man, we feel so much pity for them" but if it's NOT their fault, it's "THIS BOOK WAS HORRIBLE AND DAN DIDIO'S HORRIBLE AND SHOULD BE FIRED". wow.
again, i do not envy mr. didio's job.
There is no 'winning' an argument on the internet. You don't like Shooter (indeed, all of the 'shouting' suggests that you loathe him as a person). Other people don't. You support Dan Didio's choices to sensationalize the DCU by adding gratuitious events like what happened to Sue Dibney or Kyle Rayner's girlfriend, as well as the various slaughters and brutalizations of characters by Black Adam and Prime. Other people don't. As in all matters of taste, there is no right or wrong, and Dan Didio's choices have clearly appealed to a large chunk of the audience who think that Black Adam and Prime are total badasses because of all the teenaged girls they've punched to death. Good for them. That sort of thing turns me off, but if other people will pay money to buy that sort of stuff, then Dan Didio must be doing something right to move the DCU in that direction, even if I don't feel like that's really what I want to see in superhero comics.
Typing in all caps is the internet version of shouting. Shouting doesn't 'win' arguments either. From the amount of 'shouting' going on, it's obvious that you feel very, very strongly (pun intended!) that we should be nicer to Dan Didio and meaner to Jim Shooter, but the shouting isn't going to convince anyone to change their minds. Indeed, it's more likely to entrench them in the opposite mindset, just as shouting at someone in the real world is more likely to 'put their back up' and make them disagree with you on general principle.
Shooter's done plenty of assy things, particularly in his portrayal of some of the female Legionnaires, and his biggest defenders here (such as me) have pointed those times out and criticized him for it. Nobody in the industry is pure evil or unalloyed perfection, and I can list off some neat ideas that Rob Liefield has come up with, and some really lame ideas from the mind of Jack Kirby.
This messageboard is filled with people who stuff (characters, artwork, writers, storylines) that I don't like, or even actively dislike. That doesn't make them wrong, or give me license to shout at them for their differences of taste.
Posted by veryvery on :
no no, i'm just saying, let's spread the love and hate evenly and reasonably. if you read my very long winded, whiny, biblical length posts on shooter, i do mention the things i think he does well , he does have a talent for characterization and development, my problem is that he doesn't lend those talents to the female cast.
i see VERY little pity for didio, but plenty of forgiveness and pity for shooter and writers in general. it just sucks to me that when things are going great it's all about the writers and the artists, and when things are going bad, it must be editorial's bad. and i doubt as many people here even know the name of the actual editor heading this up (marts, btw). i don't see anyone going "down with marts" it's "down with didio". he's an easy target and i think we are all clever enough feel for EVERYONE that brings us the books we like.
dammit set, i will one day figure out a way to use "set" cleverly as a pun but it never fits in properly....
the caps are for emphasis, and in this case, an imitation of the obvious rancor felt by people for didio. i'm not trying to use shouting to win an argument, i'm trying to point out hypocritical behavior, and logical inconsistencies in order to prove my point.
Posted by reckless on :
veryvery,
I'm not sure I get your point. There are enough posts -- Frances' saying he and Shooter moved on and adding that he doesn't know who wrote the book and Klordny's saying Shooter disclaimed authorship -- to support that this was not Shooter's work. So Shooter did not write the book.
Are you arguing Shooter should be blamed for leaving the book (assuming he left instead of being fired)? I don't know why he should. Just because comics are a business does not mean that writers have to abandon their vision for their work. It's always a tension in the medium, but if Shooter did not want to be the one to bastardize what he had been developing with the Threeboot because TPTB decided late in the game that they want a different result, Shooter is under no obligation comply. He is not a slave. He can walk away and forfeit some of the money he would receive from DC, but for some people, that is a better outcome than compromising one's artistic vision due to corporate pressure.
As for blaming Didio, he's the head of DC. The buck stops with him. All of the problems with the Legion in what was supposed to be the big 50th Anniversary Celebration ultimately fall at his feet.
Posted by Awkward Pause Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by reckless: Are you arguing Shooter should be blamed for leaving the book (assuming he left instead of being fired)? I don't know why he should. Just because comics are a business does not mean that writers have to abandon their vision for their work. It's always a tension in the medium, but if Shooter did not want to be the one to bastardize what he had been developing with the Threeboot because TPTB decided late in the game that they want a different result, Shooter is under no obligation comply. He is not a slave. He can walk away and forfeit some of the money he would receive from DC, but for some people, that is a better outcome than compromising one's artistic vision due to corporate pressure.
I think the "corporation" vs. "artist" dichotomy, though often cited, belies some important factors of comic-book publishing. Here are some factors that I quickly came up with as guidance to potential comic-book writers.
If the writer doesn't realize that stories must occasionally accommodate editorial decisions (or "corporate pressure" if you want to evoke more individualistic nobility), then he or she should probably self-publish.
If the writer doesn't realize that his or her work is immediately incorporated into a "franchise"--that it becomes part of something greater than just the writer's submission, then the writer should insist on writing original, insulated characters/teams.
If the writer doesn't care enough about the fans of the book to strive for a conclusion to stories in which those fans have invested, then maybe he or she should add to the stories a disclaimer to that effect.
Posted by reckless on :
AWP,
I agree with some of those points, but I think there are different rules for different writers. Guys like Geoff Johns and Grant Morrison are pretty much given carte-blanche to do what they want to when they take over a book. We don't know what assurances Shooter was given when he came back to LSH. Remember what a big deal it was? How DC was trumpeting the return of Shooter to the Legion? DC had a dying book and needed to do something to revive it. To have Shooter come back, they had to have promised him a lot of freedom to write *his* story and, from all reports, he gave them a pretty good outline of what he intended to do. So they knew his plans from the outset and he knew they were approved.
Given those circumstances, the "artist" side deserves some respect. It looks like DC's plans then changed because they liked the response to the Lightning Saga. They then decided to give Johns Lo3W, and the writing was on the wall for the Threeboot. Then, the TPTB cancel the book and cut Shooter's planned story by several issues. Even then, Shooter appeared willing to accept those business/editorial decisions. But -- and I have no confirmation on that -- TPTB then forced changes in how Shooter planned to resolve his by-then nearly completed arc. (I suspect this was necessary because Shooter's ending would have created a continuity nightmare for Lo3W. You can't add Sun Boy during Shooter's last few issues and kill a Legionnaire in the last issue, yet have them both appear in Lo3W.) At that stage, I don't fault Shooter for throwing up his hands and saying, "This is not my vision for these characters, and I am not going to be blamed for this lame ending."
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
*quitely raises hand...
Ummm, Very Very, I did talk about Marts, up above. You probably missed it, but we did talk about him, about an interview I saw with Chuck Austen, and about how the same psuedonmym(sp?) was used by Marts at some point.
Not trying to be snippy with you. But, honestly, after #50, its just way to many straws for that poor old camel as far as i am concerned.
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by Awkward Pause Boy:
Here are some factors that I quickly came up with as guidance to potential comic-book writers.
If the writer doesn't realize that stories must occasionally accommodate editorial decisions (or "corporate pressure" if you want to evoke more individualistic nobility), then he or she should probably self-publish.
If the writer doesn't realize that his or her work is immediately incorporated into a "franchise"--
If the writer doesn't care enough about the fans of the book to strive for a conclusion
Did you consider when writing your guidelines that in this instance, by shortening the run three issues AFTER THE STORY HAD BEEN WRITTEN (<== not yelling, emphasizing. ) ... they put their artist in a lose-lose position?
..are you really being fair here?
Posted by the Maritimer on :
I think what would solve a lot of the animosity towards Mr. Didio would have been an explanation or a warning of what was to come re: The Ending.
At the very least the solicitation on DC's website should have changed to suit the actual material or removed completely.
We had no idea what was going to be dropped in our laps.
I didn't really like the three boot much. It had it's moments here and there, but overall most longtime fans know it's a failure. Still, I would like the real ending to have been presented. It just was not fair to the fans.
Thanks to the shoddy treatment afforded this long time fan, I will be drastically reducing the number of DC Comics I will purchase. It's the only protest available that might get noticed, but I doubt it.
Posted by Awkward Pause Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by Blockade Boy: ..are you really being fair here?
No, probably not. Are you?
Posted by Awkward Pause Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by reckless: Remember what a big deal it was? How DC was trumpeting the return of Shooter to the Legion? DC had a dying book and needed to do something to revive it. ...
I remember that it was news. But, part of the reason it was news was that it was unusual that Mr. Shooter was working for either of the two major publishers again. He had something of a reputation, it seemed.
As you said in your post, neither you nor I have details on what happened when between DC editorial and Mr. Shooter. So, if you would like to weight artist-hood whereas I find hints of diva-hood, then it's good we can at least make each other aware of our perspectives.
Posted by reckless on :
quote:Originally posted by Awkward Pause Boy:
quote:Originally posted by reckless: Remember what a big deal it was? How DC was trumpeting the return of Shooter to the Legion? DC had a dying book and needed to do something to revive it. ...
I remember that it was news. But, part of the reason it was news was that it was unusual that Mr. Shooter was working for either of the two major publishers again. He had something of a reputation, it seemed.
As you said in your post, neither you nor I have details on what happened when between DC editorial and Mr. Shooter. So, if you would like to weight artist-hood whereas I find hints of diva-hood, then it's good we can at least make each other aware of our perspectives.
I never said diva-hood was not present. But there are a lot of creative divas who work in industries that exercise some form of control and the system generally functions pretty well. (I know a lot of actors and Hollywood types, and divas are the norm. However, that is why contracts set out who has creative control and detail how the process of approval will work. Some actors and directors will not sign onto a project if they do not have final approval.) DC knew what it was getting with Shooter, and I'm sure both entered the contract for Shooter to do LSH with some trepidation, but that is also why I feel pretty confident that they outlined how the arrangement would work *before* Shooter took the book. Given the state of the book before Shooter came in, DC needed Shooter more than he needed the Legion. So I can't imagine that DC would have brought Shooter into the fold without a lot of assurances that he had creative control once the basic plot was approved. The fact that Shooter had his stories written so early (and possibly outlined before he started his gig) is a pretty strong sign that he got the greenlight from DC to write the story that he planned.
I don't think any of us really need to be insiders to have some sense of what happened: DC's plans for the Threeboot changed and they tightened the reins on Shooter. Shooter could not even end the Threeboot on his own terms, because a particular Threeboot Legion was needed for the more favored Lo3W.
You may call it diva-hood, but consider it from Shooter's perspective. His name will always be on these books and if Shooter had finished the run with a lame resolution forced on him by TPTB, it would have further tarnished his reputation. I cannot fault him for not wanting his name associated with a story that he knew was going to be awful. Better to walk away and make sure everyone understands that this lame ending was not his story.
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
isn't it time to kill this thread and move on?
Posted by Awkward Pause Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by reckless: Given the state of the book before Shooter came in, DC needed Shooter more than he needed the Legion.
I disagree.
quote:Originally posted by reckless: I don't think any of us really need to be insiders to have some sense of what happened: DC's plans for the Threeboot changed and they tightened the reins on Shooter.
I agree
quote:Originally posted by reckless: You may call it diva-hood, but consider it from Shooter's perspective.
No, I'm going to stick with considering from my perspective.
Posted by Matthew E on :
quote:Originally posted by the Maritimer: Thanks to the shoddy treatment afforded this long time fan, I will be drastically reducing the number of DC Comics I will purchase. It's the only protest available that might get noticed, but I doubt it.
No, it is not. It won't help at all. Here's what will help:
Reduce the number of DC comics you purchase, just like you said you were going to do, and write a letter to them telling them what you're doing and why. A paper letter, concise and civil.
Seriously, I can't recommend letter-writing enough. I believe that it gets attention. And it's a lot more articulate a way of protesting than simply not buying stuff.
Posted by Chemical King on :
Do you think a letter from good old Germany would get any more attention? After the editorial and narrative disaster that was Final Crisis, and the infamy that was #50, I really do feel like telling someone inside DC my mind...
And I do plan to further cut down my DC expenses. Canceled my subscriptions to JLA and Booster Gold recently. Going to cancel Titans this month. My plan is to keep nothing outside of JSA and Green Lantern, and carefully checking out what new Legion project might be on the horizon...
By the way, I also cut down my Marvel monthlies to two due to the insolent price raise recently. I believe that both of the Big Two are in sever trouble right now...
Posted by Matthew E on :
quote:Originally posted by Chemical King: Do you think a letter from good old Germany would get any more attention?
It would get more attention than no letter at all.
Posted by Candle on :
quote:Originally posted by veryvery: so... if it's shooter or levitz's fault, we give them a pass...
Well, if we don't diss Levitz TOO badly, I'll ve okay. lol (Oh, I just tickle me sometimes!)
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by Awkward Pause Boy:
quote:Originally posted by Blockade Boy: ..are you really being fair here?
No, probably not. Are you?
Hey, I'm not picking on anyone, well except whomever made the conscious decision to bait and switch me. Am I being unfair in not liking that?
[ February 09, 2009, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: Blockade Boy ]
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
quote:Originally posted by Blockade Boy:
quote:Originally posted by Awkward Pause Boy:
quote:Originally posted by Blockade Boy: ..are you really being fair here?
No, probably not. Are you?
Hey, I'm not picking on anyone, well except whomever made the conscious decision to bait and switch me. Am I being unfair in not liking that?
Calm down, all.
BB feels tricked and abandoned by DC. APB feels tricked and abandoned by Shooter.
Regardless of how blame is apportioned, the end result is the same.
It's always easy to oversimplify and frame a situation to fit our assumptions... yet we have only glimpses of the incident at hand.
Shooter signed on knowing he did not have full and complete creative control, true. We don't know whether his relationship with DC was within normal give-take parameters, if he was singled out for excessive treatment, or if he was just more vocal about some of the 'normal' roadbumps.
From what we do know, DC was not exactly politick in handling Shooter all along, despite whatever was agreed to last year.
There is blame enough to go around, but no matter how you slice the skunk we all got sprayed.
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
I thought we were calm? Did I miss something?
Heh, wouldn't be the first time.
Posted by Awkward Pause Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by Blockade Boy: Hey, I'm not picking on anyone, well except whomever made the conscious decision to bait and switch me. Am I being unfair in not liking that?
Pointing out a writer's obligations (in a thread replete with criticism of the publisher) equates to "picking on" him or her?
"Conscious decision to bait and switch"?
Please let me know when my other posts are unfair too.
Posted by reckless on :
quote:Originally posted by Awkward Pause Boy:
quote:Originally posted by Blockade Boy: Hey, I'm not picking on anyone, well except whomever made the conscious decision to bait and switch me. Am I being unfair in not liking that?
Pointing out a writer's obligations (in a thread replete with criticism of the publisher) equates to "picking on" him or her?
"Conscious decision to bait and switch"?
Please let me know when my other posts are unfair too.
You don't know what the writer's "obligations" were. Shooter's agreement with DC could have given him more control over his work than you think. And writers in nearly every industry have the right to walk off a project if it no longer reflects their work. There is a reason that the Writer's Guild (and the Director's Guild) have official pseudonyms when a writer wants his or her name off a project. Also, a writer cannot be forced to write something against his will. He forfeits his right to be paid under their contract, but that is it.
Look at it this way. If DC had reviewed Grant Morrison's Final Crisis outline and said to Grant Morrison: "You know that whole thing with Darkseid taking over humans? Not really keen on that. How about a cult of Darkseid supporters decide to pretend they have been corrupted but they don't really put up much of a fight. And Batman dying? We don't think so. We think you should replace Batman's cowl with floppy bunny ears and have him go nuts and skip through Gotham. Oh, and that Japanese group, nix them entirely. Give us a team of cornfed Midwest football players with superpowers." Are you saying that Morrison was forced to write that story? Of course not. If he was willing to walk away from DC's money, he had every right to break his contract and go work elsewhere.
Posted by Awkward Pause Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by reckless: Shooter's agreement with DC could have given him more control over his work than you think.
Yes, I get your point about contractual obligations already. If you don't see my point about obligations inherent to the medium, then that's fine too.
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
The unexpected/bait and switch with no explanation has angered people - and not for the first time. This latest one was egregious, but people also reacted badly to the Shvaughn Erin cover (who was really Chameleon) and to the Dawnstar-Blok cover (who were just in the story as legends). Maybe they should just abandon solicits, then no hopes would be dashed.
Since DiDio actually brought up the question of whether covers should reflect contents at NYCC, they must be getting lots of negative feedback. One outcome of this could be to just take an interior panel and make it into the cover, which would avoid howls of anguish, but would mean less artwork for fans to enjoy.
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
Covers are different than artistic teams, at least to me.
Didio in his response really should have apologized for the company IMO. Even before that, they should have fairly advertised the changes in author nd artist.
It is reasonable AND predictable to think most people would feel cheated to be told they bought a corvet, take it home and there's a chevet inside. DC had to know this and so in my mind, their decision to not alter a solicit to account for new artistic team was egregious.
The world won't end because of a poorly executed comic book but there are such things as integrity at issue.
This is a type of decision that would cost most of us our positions.
Posted by knowjack on :
Personally, I'd like a refund.
Posted by Glen Cadigan on :
I'm not going to pretend that I've read every single post of a thread that's currently 15 pages long, but I have skimmed as much as I could absorb in a reasonable period of time, and I have to say that some people are waaaaay off in their interpretations as to why things happen in the comic book industry. Everyone in it may have started out as fans, but decisions aren't made for what I'll term "fanboy" reasons, such as someone doesn't like what someone else is doing to their beloved characters. It's a business, and the people that work in it are pros. They know that what another writer does isn't necessarily what they would do, and they're mature about it. They grant the same courtesy to that other writer that they would expect to receive in turn. In other words, they don't overreact and act like someone kicked their dog. They disagree on a dispassionate level, and that's that. It's a mistake for fans to think that pros think like they do, because they don't. It's a fun job, but it's a job. At the end of the day, the company owns the characters, and they know that.
As far as issue # 50 goes, yes, it was wrong to solicit one comic and deliver another. There should have been plenty of time to correct that, but for whatever reason, they didn't do it. That aside, # 50 was a professional, competent comic book. It may not have been what people wanted, but it wasn't amateurish by any stretch of the imagination. Believe me, I've seen amateurish comic books, and this wasn't that. We also don't know the circumstances around its creation, and I actually feel bad for the people that did it, because what a thankless job that was. No matter what they did, they were going to catch hell, and that's exactly what they caught.
As far as who Justin Thyme was, I have no idea, but it was either someone who sat down with a bunch of comics and tried to wrap it all up in a hurry, or (and this is a guess) Mike Marts himself. He knew where the series was going, and it would have been easier for him to just pound it out than try to explain it to someone else. DC has an official policy where editors aren't allowed to write for the company (it eliminates two editors giving each other jobs in a quid pro quo system), so a pseudonym would have been both practical and preferred. And if he did do, again, thankless job. From everything that I've been privy to, he and Shooter got along just fine.
Maybe some day I'll be able to show you guys what Jim Shooter's original original plot for # 50 was. And yes, I know that I used the word "original" twice. It dates back to before the book was cancelled and everything had to be wrapped up in one issue. It even dates back to before that!
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
quote:Originally posted by Glen Cadigan: Maybe some day I'll be able to show you guys what Jim Shooter's original original plot for # 50 was. And yes, I know that I used the word "original" twice. It dates back to before the book was cancelled and everything had to be wrapped up in one issue. It even dates back to before that!
Shooter said in some interview that he had prepared a 16,400 word script for the series. Is this property of DC (I suppose) or could he release it/let someone post it or at least post the general plot points? I think many of us are very curious as to how he saw everything play out.
Posted by Ricardo on :
Sorry, Glen, but everything about LSH #50 was unprofessional and incompetent. Artwork was terrible, dialogue was trite, things didn't make any sense, characters were completely far out (Invisible Kid simply had multiple personalities throughout the entire endeavour) and plot simply negated everything that came before. It is obvious that DC owns all these characters and that pros like Shooter have (and are able) to deal with that. But I, as a customer, cannot be quiet to see my favorite monthly simply go down the drain because of bad management of the whole situation. And, as people have pointed out on other topics, L3W is already full of inconsistencies with the Threeboot, which means that the original team could have finished its storyline without any problem.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Finally read it last night.
Complete and utter crap.
Posted by Matthew E on :
Glen's concept of the universe, as reflected in his post, is rather closer to mine than are any of those suggested by most of the other posts in this thread.
Posted by Glen Cadigan on :
Well, a day later I know a lot more about what went down with the big five-oh than I did yesterday, so I stand by some of my comments moreso than I do of others. It's actually more complicated than I thought, but not as complicated as some other people might think. Things did go south in a hurry near the end, though, and you all bought the end result. It's a shame, but that happens.
Posted by Candle on :
quote:Originally posted by Glen Cadigan: . . . so I stand by some of my comments moreso than I do of others.
Any plans on sharing which you're standing by and which you're not?
Let me guess. People weren't quite so 'professional' as you thought?
I've been around awhile and I'm here to tell you, NOBODY is. Posted by Ricardo on :
7. One question that came up a few times in the thread – what happened with Legion of Super-Heroes #50?
DD: It’s pretty clear, and I answered this at one of my panels at the con, but I’m more than happy to address it again. What happened was that upon the author’s request, there was a name change and a pseudonym used and we obliged that request. We made those changes at the very last minute because we did not want to miss our shipping date on the book. We made a couple of changes in order to get the book out on time, and we felt that it summed up the story to the best of its ability, and we’re ready to move on to the next chapter of Legion wherever that may be, following the conclusion of the series.
Did he learn this by heart? It's a copy-paste of his rude assessment at NYCC. Why doesn't he tell me why the PLANS were changed and the book was cut-off? Why didn't they return our money back for false advertising? Why does he let L3W get so late, but for LSH #50 it had to be shipped on time? Yes, it's a rhetorical question.
More then: 12. Moving on to a question about something you said about DC having an increased commitment to the Legion of Super-Heroes in 2009. Last year at this time, there were two series, and an animated series. This year, the regular book has been cancelled, and they’re going to be doing what looks to be a time-share thing in Adventure Comics. What’s the increased commitment going to consist of, coming up?
DD: Well, we also have Legion of 3 Worlds coming to a conclusion too, which is a very important book for the Legion franchise. But the commitment is that we’re bringing a level of clarity to the Legion and one direction that shows the potential for the future of the Legion, but also how that future is springing from the current storylines in the current continuity.
So what you’re going to see is how the Legion has ties to our current timeline, and once we establish those ties to the current time, we’ll spring forward to the future an d see what the future holds for those characters.
NRAMA: So mostly, we’re going to see more of firmly-established clear-line continuity than it’s had previously?
DD: Right. One of the things that I found most interesting about Legion of 3 Worlds was that the delineation between the three Legion teams were slighter than we had originally thought. They were variations of each other rather than different focus, different plans between them. What we’re trying to do right now is to bring a level of clarity to everything, the Legion included. Following Blackest Night, we’re looking at a much clearer, iconic interpretation and a much more committed determination to the direction of our characters. Legion is no exception, and we wanted to clear the decks a bit, straighten things up and get things rolling again.
Posted by Chemical King on :
Oh my, the book would have come out LATE if they wouldn't have done the last minute changes... LATE!!!
God beware any DC book would come out late... Posted by Blockade Boy on :
Clearer: okay that I can handle but what does it mean? Will they be picking a "legion" from the remnants of the three (which would seem more confusing than clearer) as opposed to picking a legion? I think many on this board warned of the faults in that; false memories, team members not who others thought they'd be, age differences...
Connections to present continuity: not looking forward to so much as I do not see any storyline purpose. I suppose DC will be consistent and be sure to make connections between present day heroes and the Battle of Hastings.
Posted by Tromium on :
quote:Dan Didio said:: we felt that it summed up the story to the best of its ability, and we’re ready to move on to the next chapter of Legion wherever that may be, following the conclusion of the series.
Dan, you're such a weasel. Shooter's story title was"One Evil", and according to the author Princess Projectra was the "One Evil". Explain to me how you can sum up the story to the best of your ability when its central character wasn't even mentioned in LSH #50?
quote:Dan Didio said: But the commitment is that we’re bringing a level of clarity to the Legion and one direction that shows the potential for the future of the Legion, but also how that future is springing from the current storylines in the current continuity. .... One of the things that I found most interesting about Legion of 3 Worlds was that the delineation between the three Legion teams were slighter than we had originally thought. They were variations of each other rather than different focus, different plans between them. What we’re trying to do right now is to bring a level of clarity to everything, the Legion included.
"Clarity", that's it? That's all he has to say about his commitment to the "potential future" of the Legion? He sure uses a whole lot of words to say nothing.
But I guess that's as honest an answer as he dares give. Dan says nothing because the foreseeable future of the Legion after LO3W amounts to nothing - except some vague "potential" that may or may not be fulfilled.
Posted by MLLASH on :
Oh no. Sounds like they're not only re-establishing the ties to Superman, but also to the rest of the current-day DCU. I don't think I'm looking forward to seeing how Hal Jordan's fart in 2009 affected the Legion.
Oh, well. At least it isn't MARVEL inserting Wolverine into the team somehow.
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
quote:Originally posted by MLLASH: I don't think I'm looking forward to seeing how Hal Jordan's fart in 2009 affected the Legion.
This will be the catalyst that tells us the revamped, totally new and different™ Emerald Legion story involving the Action Legionnaires this time! This will then lead into the all-new™ Team 20 series of stories starring the Action Legion "to make things less confusing." Posted by matlock on :
Argh. The Legion has always had less problems with clarity than any other comic on the stands. One book, sometimes two, not 4 or 5 with multiple crossovers with the rest of the line. I just don't understand how the Legion ever got such a bad rep for being hard to get into. I look at the X-Men "franchise" and wonder how it got from my day when it consisted of "Uncanny X-Men" and "New Mutants." Clarity my *ss.
Posted by Candle on :
quote:Dan Didio said: One of the things that I found most interesting about Legion of 3 Worlds was that the delineation between the three Legion teams were slighter than we had originally thought. They were variations of each other rather than different focus, different plans between them.
I think this is true ~ the difference between the 3 boots was never very great. They were really just teams at different eras in development, doing the same things ~ trying to work together despite differences, sometimes with the prevailing government and sometimes against it.
But that's been pretty much the same for ALL of the comic groups, over the years.
Does that mean that DC wants to change the Legion's focus/plan? To what?
They've combined eras before (clones)(have we seen any of them in 3worlds?) and I'd enjoy seeing that again combining the 3 boots, but I don't know about changing the focus/plan for the Legion. What would that look like? What new direction could they take? Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Candle: What new direction could they take?
Secondary characters to Superman?
Stuck in the 21st century?
Both?
Posted by jimgallagher on :
It sounds to me that he's hinting that the 3 versions of each Legionnaire are such slight variations that they may be merged together to form a single composite of each silver age member, similar to how Phase and Apparition were merged in the last boot. The non silver age members are left over as wild cards. Some will probably die, others will stick around to make the Legion seem "fresh and new."
But since the multiverse is back and there are other versions of many other DC characters, I don't see why there needs to be one "iconic" version of the Legion anyway. Just pick one and feature it. The other versions could show up occasionally as guest stars, like when the JSA and JLA team up periodically.
Posted by cleome on :
matlock:
quote:One book, sometimes two, not 4 or 5 with multiple crossovers with the rest of the line. I just don't understand how the Legion ever got such a bad rep for being hard to get into. I look at the X-Men "franchise" and wonder how it got from my day when it consisted of "Uncanny X-Men" and "New Mutants." Clarity my *ss.
matlock, I think you just hit the nail on the head. If a property can't be made to bear a huge squirming litter of must-have tie-in books, (maybe) the bigwigs can't be made to really care about it.
Maybe "hard to get into" is just code-speak for "We can't breed it, so piss off."
(snip)
Jim Gallagher:
quote:...But since the multiverse is back...
Until somebody changes his/her mind and they get rid of it again. ("Return of the Return of the 53rd Infinite Crisis on 99 Worlds.") Feh.
Posted by matlock on :
The multiverse isn't really back. 52 universes have been created (they aren't even the originals.) It's like if your car radio had all the presets already locked in when you bought it and you could never change them, and they took the rest of the nobs off.
Posted by Tromium on :
It wouldn't be the first time DC put conflicting versions of a character/team in a cosmic blender to "clarify" their differences. The did it with Donna Troy and the Doom Patrol a few years ago and more recently seemed to be doing it with Jimmy Olsen. But I don't think Didio and Johns have the balls to merge the 3 Legions. Imo, they'll take the cowards way out and just continue pretending the Johnsboot Legion is the "original" -- while proceeding to rewrite its entire history from scratch -- thus permanently disposing of the original pre-Crisis LSH along with the post-Crisis, 5YL, reboot and 3boot versions.
At this stage, I don't give a crap what those two hypocrites do. They've already ruined everything.
Posted by Set on :
Wow, the Legion is going to be 'clarified' by making sure that it's affected by every tie-in and crossover related to the 21st century DCU characters.
It's like Laurel Kent-Manhunter, all over again...
Posted by Ricardo on :
quote:Originally posted by Set: Wow, the Legion is going to be 'clarified' by making sure that it's affected by every tie-in and crossover related to the 21st century DCU characters.
It's like Laurel Kent-Manhunter, all over again...
... but worse: there is no Paul Levitz writing it.
Posted by Ricardo on :
quote:Originally posted by matlock: The multiverse isn't really back. 52 universes have been created (they aren't even the originals.) It's like if your car radio had all the presets already locked in when you bought it and you could never change them, and they took the rest of the nobs off.
Really, why get stuck in 52 or 110? If you add up all the time travelling shenennigans going on on Booster Gold, it really doesn't matter at all.
Posted by duck458 on :
After reading the posts here I had pretty much convinced myself that I wasn't going to buy this ish, tough economic times and all that. But I bought the thing just to see what all of the rending of garments was all about. By itself it wasn't that bad of an issue, though the artist probably wouldn't have been a choice I would have made for this book. His style, particularly his people, doesn't seem to fit a futuristic sci-fi book. But maybe over time one could get used to it. The big problem was that the issue didn't deliver what was promised on DC's own website. Forget the last minute change in writer and artist, at least tell the story that you promised that you were going to tell, regardless of who you get to tell it. I could also kind of see a scenerio where maybe the Invader Majestix was Projectra. But you'd need the extra issues to get there. The let down is Mon-El is still in limbo, Cos is still in the future's future, Dream Boy is ?, etc.
Given last twenty or so years of the LSH and now to end the Legion's 50th anniversary like this, DC you really OWE the LSH fans a huge debt. Make it right.
Posted by Arm Fall Off Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by duck458: The let down is Mon-El is still in limbo, Cos is still in the future's future, Dream Boy is ?, etc.
Given last twenty or so years of the LSH and now to end the Legion's 50th anniversary like this, DC you really OWE the LSH fans a huge debt. Make it right.
Yeah, Duck, that's what we've all been saying. I just want this issue to die and be put out of our misery, but this thread just keeps on going...How about we put 4 more messages on here--that'll get us to 247, then lock it?
Posted by Glen Cadigan on :
quote:Originally posted by Candle:
quote:Originally posted by Glen Cadigan: . . . so I stand by some of my comments moreso than I do of others.
Any plans on sharing which you're standing by and which you're not?
Let me guess. People weren't quite so 'professional' as you thought?
No, I was right about that. It had nothing to do with one person not liking another person's take on a given series. Again, pros don't get worked up about that stuff - fans do. The conflict was always about publishing concerns, not story content.
I was wrong about who it was that was butting heads, as some of my information was out of date. I have since been updated by the horse's mouth, so my first post was right - up to a point. Then things changed, and it affected the outcome of the series.
Posted by Evolution Has Failed on :
quote:Originally posted by Ricardo: From Dan Didio 20 Questions at Newsarama:
So what you’re going to see is how the Legion has ties to our current timeline, and once we establish those ties to the current time, we’ll spring forward to the future and see what the future holds for those characters.
Auugh! How open-ended can you get? Reading between the lines, this sounds like "maybe we'll make another LSH book eventually, if fan reaction is positive".
This was his chance to plug a new LSH book, and he didn't. This means there are no plans...and if/when there are, how long a delay from plan to first issue?
I agree with whoever brought up the 50th anniversary: 50th anniversary, semi-successful cartoon, *very* well-reviewed appearance on "Smallville", and...
hey, great time to have no title book? Indefinitely?
As for clarity: we had the John's Legion in Countdown/Action ... but the Threeboot LSH is STILL affecting things (R.E.B.E.L.S, Brave and Bold) ... seems to me (as I think other have alluded to) that the more such "ties" over the timeline there are, the LESS "clear" the LSH can be.
As for issue #50 - sure, a let-down for a last issue. But let's also face this: had he/they gone through with the original plan, Jeckie fans would have been up in arms, and would have felt betrayed.
I know, as an Element Lad fan, I wish someone had stepped in at the end of "Legion Lost" and changed the Progenitor storyline ... even if doing so would have made for an anti-climactic ending.
So, poor as it may have been, they erred on the side of character preservation, which I appreciate.
Besides, in even the best titles, 15-20% of the issues randomly suck anyway, so this was nothing new.
Nevertheless, I do agree that it was a crime not to take great pains to stay out of that 15-20% bracket on what could turn out to be the last issue for a LONG time, and on the 50th (year) anniversary to "boot" (pun intended ... not just the usual, but also that they are kicking us in the gut.)
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
quote:Originally posted by Evolution Has Failed: ...seems to me (as I think other have alluded to) that the more such "ties" over the timeline there are, the LESS "clear" the LSH can be.
Agreed. Especially as the GL foundations change every 5-10 years.
quote:...with the original plan, Jeckie fans would have been up in arms, and would have felt betrayed.
I know, as an Element Lad fan, I wish someone had stepped in at the end of "Legion Lost" and changed the Progenitor storyline ... even if doing so would have made for an anti-climactic ending.
So, poor as it may have been, they erred on the side of character preservation, which I appreciate.
I could not disagree more. If the line is drawn at what might affend some fans or even many fans, we will never see an interesting story again. Charatcters we care about beling placed in situations in which they have a genuine risk factor is vital; if every intense danger turns out to be a red herring, we have the lame, watered-down Silver age Kal-El stories.
If that's what we as Legino fans collectively want, (1) we are just as impossible as some others perceive us, and (2) we might as well just readl back issues and write our own fan-fic than to read anything that might offend delicate sensibilities.
I'd rather have seen *some* conclusion to the Jeckie story than none at all, even if Shooter's run wasn't as good as Legion Lost (and one can be a Jan fan without automatically hating it, or wanting TPTB to step in and alter an ending).
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Evolution Has Failed: As for issue #50 - sure, a let-down for a last issue. But let's also face this: had he/they gone through with the original plan, Jeckie fans would have been up in arms, and would have felt betrayed.
I know, as an Element Lad fan, I wish someone had stepped in at the end of "Legion Lost" and changed the Progenitor storyline ... even if doing so would have made for an anti-climactic ending.
I'll accept a *good* story where a character dies. The death of Phoenix had meaning, and so I was fine with it. Her subsequent lives and deaths have not had any real narrative meaning, and have served to cheapen the original story.
The problem here is that Projectra got saved in LSH 50, only to likely have her entire universe cease to exist by the end of Lo3W anyway (and quite possibly being punched through the chest / cut in half by heat vision / etc. by Prime anyway, along with 50 other random Legionnaires who don't 'make the cut' into Dan Didio's 'less confusing Legion of 1 World').
I would rather have seen the Threeboot Projectra, who is a *vastly* different character than Snakejectra or Sensor, die at the end of what has essentially been a 50 issue story arc about the death of her world and it's effects on her, than have her be decapitated in a flyby attack by Prime at the bottom right-hand panel of page 16 of Lo3W #5 along with Gear, yet another Triplicate Girl (the gift that keeps on giving to an editorial mandate to kill a bunch of people, since they can kill her over and over) and Invisible Jacques.
Posted by jimgallagher on :
Well said, Set.
Posted by Omni Craig on :
I agree with you both. The death of Phoenix had tremendous meaning, as did the death of Barry Allen. I loved both of these characters dearly, but they had purpose and were well done. The years spent developing Wally as a character, as a "Replacement" Flash, who himself did not feel worthy to wear the shoes of his mentor were very well done overall (hey, everybody who runs will stumble from time to time). I remember previous writers and editors at DC comics swearing Barry Allen would never been resurrected (he may appear in time travel stories or an "untold adventure"... he was the closest thing DC had to a saint. I don't need Barry to be back again full time...even though I'll definitely be buying the book. I feel like such a hypocrite. But it looks to have both a great story and beautiful artwork.
Even drawing from the Legion's history:
Ferro Lad dying against the Sun Eater. It would cheapen his story to have him come back now.
And when Garth died at the end of Legion Lost, I should have screamed for DnA's heads (Lightning Lad has always been my favorite superhero), but I didn't because it was so well done. How his sacrifice got the team home, and reminded them all that they were never "lost" to begin with... Well done. But hey, he's back now too. I was torn to see him return, as it cheapened what I thought was an incredible ending.
As far as I'm concerned, issue #50 was an editorial copout. We deserved to see the story through to it's completion. Even if Jim was going to have Jeckie kill Sun Boy for working with Terra Firma only to have Sun Boy appear in Lo3W and get frozen and smashed by Prime anyway...no big deal. Orion died twice between Death of the New Gods mini and Final Crisis...I can overlook that kind of thing from time to time...
From a Legion death standpoint, I also think we've seen enough Karate Kids and Triplicate Girls die too. Let's move on.
Death should not be a revolving door in comic books. It takes no talent to bring the character back from the dead. Does anyone here believe Bruce Wayne is gone for good? Steve Rogers? Anyone? I didn't think so.
Posted by Omni Craig on :
quote:Originally posted by jimgallagher: But since the multiverse is back and there are other versions of many other DC characters, I don't see why there needs to be one "iconic" version of the Legion anyway. Just pick one and feature it. The other versions could show up occasionally as guest stars, like when the JSA and JLA team up periodically.
Oh and Jim, you get my vote to replace DiDio at DC. This more than makes sense. I guess it can't possibly happen since it follows such a beatifully simplistic logic. Sigh...
Posted by jimgallagher on :
Aw go on!
Blushing Lad.
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
jim and craig, I ditto you both in full.
Posted by Ricardo on :
I'd ditto jim, craig and set...
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Omni Craig: I remember previous writers and editors at DC comics swearing Barry Allen would never been resurrected
I feel the same way about Hal Jordan. I grew up watching the Superfriends and reading about a Justice League that had both Barry and Hal as the Flash and Green Lantern, but they changed and grew and died. I accepted Wally and Kyle as their heirs and replacements, and now those characters have been shuffled off to the side for the return of their dead predecessors, both of whom, IMO, haven't been used well enough to justify their returns.
quote: Death should not be a revolving door in comic books. It takes no talent to bring the character back from the dead. Does anyone here believe Bruce Wayne is gone for good? Steve Rogers? Anyone? I didn't think so.
So true. And yet, comic book writers don't see characters as characters, allowed to change, grow and eventually die, they see them as franchises. Professor Xavier appears in a wheelchair, so he's confined to that wheelchair forever. He gets a new clone body that can walk? Somebody breaks his back, putting him back in the chair. He gets repaired by alien technology? Something damages his nervous system and it's back in the saddle again. Spider-Man isn't allowed to change his 'iconic' costume for long, neither is Superman. Every couple of years, somebody comes along and mashes the big reset button and everybody transforms back to the way they were. Cyclops learns to control his optic blasts (thanks to Emma doing what Professor X could have done at any time in the last dozen years, as easily as he teaches people to speak Shiar in 12 seconds flat) in Astonishing X-Men. It mysteriously wears off, despite the woman who 'cured' him standing right in front of him and being able to do it again as effortlessly as she did it the first time.
And now it's happening to the Legion again. Garth and Imra are apparently no longer Validus' parents (and possibly not even parents at all!). Wildfire is back in his containment suit, having apparently forgotten how Quislet taught him how to manifest a humanoid energy-form. Karate Kid is alive again. No wait, he's dead again. Again. Again.
The editorial *fear* of changing anything is mighty annoying, and it's pure marketing. Kal-El might be as likely to change his clothing, mannerisms or speech patterns as any other sentient being. But Superman (TM) isn't allowed to do anything that might 'damage his branding.'
And, like the Flash (now with Classic Barry Allen flavor!) and Green Lantern (retro Hal Jordan ftw!), I feel that the marketing demands damage the 'brands' far more than organic change would.
Posted by Set on :
Random thought.
If there are only 52 universes now, where did the Fatal 500 come from? Weren't there a hell of a lot more than 52 Fatal Fives?
Where does Hypertime fit into this?
Arrgh!
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
quote:Originally posted by Omni Craig:
quote:Originally posted by jimgallagher: But since the multiverse is back and there are other versions of many other DC characters, I don't see why there needs to be one "iconic" version of the Legion anyway. Just pick one and feature it. The other versions could show up occasionally as guest stars, like when the JSA and JLA team up periodically.
Oh and Jim, you get my vote to replace DiDio at DC. This more than makes sense. I guess it can't possibly happen since it follows such a beatifully simplistic logic. Sigh...
Personally, I'm still waiting for someone to come up with an even remotely plausible explanation as to why they can't just say "Here's an Earth that's basically just like pre-Crisis Earth-1, and there's its Legion" and we could have the original Legion back without all these convolutions of trying to mesh it to fit whatever the heck current DC continuity is supposed to be.
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
That's my ultimate preferred solution to the entire mess. Earth-1 Superboy/man and Earth-1 Supergirl and their Legion. Tell their stories and leave the convoluted mess that is DCU continuity to the 21st Century.
Heck, you can say Kara died in the Crisis and Superman's story ended with "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" from SUPERMAN Vol. 1 #423 and ACTION COMICS #583 (both September 1986) which leaves him powerless as Jordan Elliot, so that you don't have to have them guest star and "confuse" readers.
[ February 17, 2009, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: Nightcrawler ]
Posted by Triplicate Kid on :
quote:Originally posted by Omni Craig: I agree with you both. The death of Phoenix had tremendous meaning, as did the death of Barry Allen. I loved both of these characters dearly, but they had purpose and were well done.
...
Death should not be a revolving door in comic books. It takes no talent to bring the character back from the dead. Does anyone here believe Bruce Wayne is gone for good? Steve Rogers? Anyone? I didn't think so.
The problem's only got worse in the last few years. Bucky and Jason Todd - the two characters fans were actually convinced would stay dead - didn't.
I wasn't around then, but I know that even by the late 70s, there had been enough resurrections that fans were suspicious. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Dark Phoenix story manage to convince many fans that stories could now have permanent effects? Whether or not it really deserved that, Marvel should've realized that, if it convinced the fans, they could take the opportunity and keep Jean dead, and convince people that comics were still "real".
Batman? I know the DC Universe needs him alive. The Final Crisis death I want to see made permanent - and one that definitely won't be - is Darkseid. He's a worn-out villain. Many fans appear to have taken him seriously again in Final Crisis. More power to them - and DC should take the opportunity to let him go out at a high point. But he's the premier villain of the DC Universe, so I know they'll bring him back. Even killing someone http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeaderThanDead has no meaning anymore.
Posted by cleome on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: Personally, I'm still waiting for someone to come up with an even remotely plausible explanation as to why they can't just say "Here's an Earth that's basically just like pre-Crisis Earth-1, and there's its Legion" and we could have the original Legion back without all these convolutions of trying to mesh it to fit whatever the heck current DC continuity is supposed to be.
Ooh ooh ! [raises hand] I know this one ! It's because you can't move product without endless elaborate multi-issue/multi-series revamps-- each of which promises to be The Resolution That Ends All Resolutions, but never is.
What do I win ?
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
quote:Originally posted by cleome: What do I win ?
What that answer deserves:
Posted by Candle on :
quote:Originally posted by Triplicate Kid: [QUOTE]...
Death should not be a revolving door in comic books.
I wasn't around then, but I know that even by the late 70s, there had been enough resurrections that fans were suspicious. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Dark Phoenix story manage to convince many fans that stories could now have permanent effects?
Whether or not it really deserved that, Marvel should've realized that, if it convinced the fans, they could take the opportunity and keep Jean dead, and convince people that comics were still "real".
I agree, but Death HAS become insignificant in comics and that's just the way it is, I guess.
We didn't have the home computer, I didn't anyway, during that saga, but I remember how astonished I was that Jean was killed, at all.
Jean's death was more of a floodgate than a stopper where people dying and staying dead was concerned, if I remember right. Soon after that story, most of the X-Men were killed in the future. It was another very powerful story, too.
Then, the team was mostly killed in Magic's Hell dimension. sigh
Death seemed to get more and more unreal while becoming more and more frequent and sensationalized.
I have no idea how many times the X-Men have been killed now.
I won't even mention Supes death. Posted by Candle on :
[ February 17, 2009, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: Candle ]
Posted by Candle on :
quote:Originally posted by Glen Cadigan:
quote:Originally posted by Candle:
quote:Originally posted by Glen Cadigan: . . . so I stand by some of my comments moreso than I do of others.
Any plans on sharing which you're standing by and which you're not?
Let me guess. People weren't quite so 'professional' as you thought?
No, I was right about that. It had nothing to do with one person not liking another person's take on a given series. Again, pros don't get worked up about that stuff - fans do. The conflict was always about publishing concerns, not story content.
I was wrong about who it was that was butting heads, as some of my information was out of date. I have since been updated by the horse's mouth, so my first post was right - up to a point. Then things changed, and it affected the outcome of the series.
Okay, if you say so, and I mean that sincerely.
So, when Shooter made Byrne and Claremont redo the last pages of the Phoenix Saga, it was for publishing reasons rather than story content.
And, when Levitz ran from his office when he read that Lyle was going to be 'outted' in a story, which was hastily, and obviously changed, it was a publishing issue.
And, when Phil Jimenez (I hope that's close to the right name) was telling us that he was going to have Wonder Woman sleep with his newly created boyfriend for her, and then it didn't happen ~ they were shown talking all night on his mother's couch, it was a publishing issue.
I can see your point of view, but as a fan, I can see where I'd perceive these situations as being about story content and editorial decisions.
I've been an editor and a reporter and content seemed to be an issue. As did the 'unprofessional' person or reaction. sigh
Thanks for taking the time to share your insider knowledge and experience! It's probably helped a lot of us to change perspective. Posted by Superboy on :
quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: That's my ultimate preferred solution to the entire mess. Earth-1 Superboy/man and Earth-1 Supergirl and their Legion. Tell their stories and leave the convoluted mess that is DCU continuity to the 21st Century.
Heck, you can say Kara died in the Crisis and Superman's story ended with "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" from SUPERMAN Vol. 1 #423 and ACTION COMICS #583 (both September 1986) which leaves him powerless as Jordan Elliot, so that you don't have to have them guest star and "confuse" readers.
The best solution(and it still might work) is to make the original Legion a product of alternate pasts.
Two time lines converging in their era...one that Superboy, Supergirl, the Superpets, Mon-El, and the Time Trapper himself came from...and the Post Crisis Time line...with the Legion always having existed beyond the convergence point.
What caused the time line to converge? Well Superboy and the Legion kept the crisis from overwriting his era...even if it was only for a split second. That's why the altenrate past existed in the first place. Perhaps their joining had always been a back up plan by the Monitor to stop the Anti-Monitor from destroying reality...so much power concentrated in such an inconspicuous little time era like Superboy's time. I mean every piece of space junk, every alien, every time traveler, every omnipowerful artifact, alien, terran or otherwise crashed in or found it's way to 1950's Rockwellian Smallville. Coincidence? Or the Monitor directing all that stuff there to create a hidden armory, a hiddent stock pile of power, a hidden obsure mini-heroic era, in which the most powerful team and the most powerful hero interacted frequently. Why do that? Because the Anti-Monitor would likely be focused on greater eras of heroic activity...that 1950's-ish era would likely escape his direct attention.
What created the convergence point between that time line and the Legion's time?
The Time Trapper himself. He was the first to break through the alternate time line right at the beginning of the Legion's era.
Had he remained in that seconed time line he would never been anything more than a typical time villain. However once beyond the convergence point, in the Legion's time that also occupied the Post Crisis reality, he became powerful enough to take over all time and space.
Except...for those other pesky little anamolies that crossed over. Superboy, Supergirl, Mon-El...them crossing over and combining with the Legion, the most powerful heroes, with the most powerful team, were the one thing powerful enough to stop him.
So intead of the stupid PU story where he was manipulating the Legion like fools, he had always been trying to limit the interaction between the Superfamily and the Legion. He'd been trying to keep them apart, until he could figure out a way to destroy them or close off that convergence point.
So that's why Superboy and Supergirl could always travel to the Legion's time, they were actually coming into the Post Crisis Time line when they did it, and they could only do it in the Legion's era, and the Legion always went back to that alternate time line when they traveled back, because of the Time Trapper's existence in their time...a sort of chronal gravity if you wish. He was so powerful and weilded so much influence in their era that all attempts at trime travel into the past from the Legion's era graviated towards the secondary alternate time line that he came from, instead of the Post Crisis Time line.
And the Trapper himself was completely cluess to what was causing it, never realizing he was the cause.
I would have made it so the Trapper himself was the reason the convergence point could never be closed off...he had to die or go back entirely into that alternate line for it to close.
So I would have made that last battle with the Time Trapper where they forced him back into that alternate timeline, or killed him and closed it off, with Superboy electing to go back to his own time.
Mon-El would have been the only remaining anamoly from that timeline and since he got to the future the hard way, he wouldn't prevent the convergence point from from being closed. And he'd elect to stay because that's where his life and love was now. And with the Time Trapper gone, all future travels into the past would go back to the Post Crisis past.
Every single Pre-and Post Crisis continuity story could have fit had they done it this way, including the ones with the Pre-Crisis Superman both in his time and the Legion's. And it also would have explained why there wouldn't be any more converging...because from the date in time in the Legion's era when the Trapper was defeated, and the convergence point closed, there would be no new crossing over...although any past stories could still have happened(like the adult Legion story) even if they were beyond that time.
But basically, it was the Time Trapper himself that made all those teams and stories possible, and it was also what defeated him. But once he was gone...so was the convergence of that alternate past in the Legion's time.
And DC knew they could do this too, because the only letter I ever wrote to a comic book company in my life detailed that plan, and I sent it to Julius Shcwartz before the PU story was even written. I mistakenly thought he would have the most pull and I figured Levtiz to be part of the problem by then or at least unable to do anything about it. I didn't realize they were phasing Julie out.
But anyway, DC didn't want that, because it would have left a de-facto Earth 1 still intact, even if only for Legion fans and I guess they thought all of comicdom read the Legion and would be confused or something.
So instead they killed Superboy and later that Earth which made the Legion's continuity an impossible fix.
Instead they chose a stupid ignorant solution that made no sense to anyone with a brain...and were left wishing they had problems like even the chance of everyone in comicdom reading the Legion to be confused in the first place.
DC knew they were going to destoy the Legion's continuity, and at least one person sent them a fix, and they still chose to ruin it thinking the fans would get over it and forget. I don't think they did it entirely for creative reasons either.
[ February 17, 2009, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Posted by Matthew E on :
One thing I give DC some credit for with the threeboot:
Issue #1 came out in December of 2004. Issue #50 came out exactly forty-nine months later. Even with all the jiggery pokery going on with the creative teams and is-it-Shooter-or-not and continuity and 52 and what have you, they never missed a month.
Posted by Ricardo on :
quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: One thing I give DC some credit for with the threeboot:
Issue #1 came out in December of 2004. Issue #50 came out exactly forty-nine months later. Even with all the jiggery pokery going on with the creative teams and is-it-Shooter-or-not and continuity and 52 and what have you, they never missed a month.
Which is great if you consider that during 49 months the book had consistency. To make that lousy job on the last issue just to keep it on time is just botched and plain stupid. Otherwise, Legion of 3 Worlds should be on time too, and they should bring a host of fill-in artists/writers to keep it on schedule.
Posted by cleome on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
quote:Originally posted by cleome: What do I win ?
What that answer deserves:
Yeah, yeah. But you'll be praising my genius to the skies after I'm dead. Just you wait.
Posted by Evolution Has Failed on :
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
quote:...with the original plan, Jeckie fans would have been up in arms, and would have felt betrayed.
I know, as an Element Lad fan, I wish someone had stepped in at the end of "Legion Lost" and changed the Progenitor storyline ... even if doing so would have made for an anti-climactic ending.
So, poor as it may have been, they erred on the side of character preservation, which I appreciate.
I could not disagree more. If the line is drawn at what might affend some fans or even many fans, we will never see an interesting story again. Charatcters we care about beling placed in situations in which they have a genuine risk factor is vital; if every intense danger turns out to be a red herring, we have the lame, watered-down Silver age Kal-El stories.
whoa, go away for one ski trip, and there's a million posts.
I actually AGREE with this sentiment (and the similar ones thereafter), but for me, there is a HUGE distinction between
a) your favorite character dying, vs. b) your favorite character *turning evil*, then dying.
Perhaps I had misunderstood, but what I had heard was that Projectra would die a villain.
Going back to the Progenitor storyline, I didn't care so much that Element Lad died at the end of Legion Lost, it was that he was *turned evil*. I noted someone else had a similar feeling of betrayal with Hal Jordan, and it's the same deal....having the character die, simply ENDs the character...having them turn evil, in a way, ERASES the character retroactively.
I think if a reader becomes invested in a character as a *hero*, someone to to be inspired by and to root for, they should at least be able to rely on that character remaining a hero.
Possibly, a DEAD hero, fine (esp. if the death is heroic), but heroic nonetheless.
Of course, some may disagree with this also (obviously, this still constrains what could otherwise be "interesting" storylines), but I guess for me it's because I use comic books as "escapist" literature, not so much looking for overly interesting or new concepts, i.e. I am more of a "comics as pop culture" fan than a "comics as art" fan. But that's just me.
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
Jan had taken on an immortal's point of view more than merely being flashlight-under-the-chin evil. It may not have been ideal, but it made sense. He wasn't really Jan anymore; he'd been changed and distorted over billions of years.
So while I can relate to the Hal Jordan comparison, in my opinion the Hal situation was far worse - Hal went comic-book crazy - not depressed, not traumatized but Republic-serial villain.
In neither case is it what I would have done with either, but DnA handled Jan much better (in my opinion).
Jeckie turning evil could have worked, and maybe would have under the original plan... but suddenly it became very rushed and she could magically out-Imra Imra (which could have worked if they built up to it, or even hinted at it, rather than coming out of left field). I don't think we saw enough of this Jeckie to be that invested in her (I wasn't, anyway. The "Daddy, they might let me do something important" bit was one of the few things that stand out in memory).
I don't know if she was slated to die a villain or not - I try not to read advance blurbs. I see too many people judging stories based upon advance promos; that to me takes away from the fun. Been there, done that; I'd have burnt out of comics if I still take that approach. I want to be surprised and entertained, not see all my expectations match a checklist. I think red-herring advance announcements are a good thing. Comic fans are too used to getting everything spoon-fed, both in comic flashback for 'continuity's' sake, and in our genre's news realm.
Heroes change. Some no longer remain heroes. That certainly happens in real life; like mt previous physical danger comment, if all heroes are beyond temptation in every situation, they are less interesting. This Jeckie lost her parents, homeworld and wealth, and then got slapped in the face by the UP. Right or wrong, I'm glad she didn't just say, "okay. well thanks for looking out for the interests of the whole UP at my expense." Regardless of what the advance promos said, I had hoped to be surprised as to whether she lived or died, whether she gave in to revenge fully or if she changed her heart and died with some amount of redemption. I see no point in knowing that outcome in advance.
Your perspective for escapist lit does have its value. But I fear that too tight parameters will give us watered-down melodrama, though... and the constant death/resurrection cycle contributes to the type of melodrama many of us seem tired of.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: in my opinion the Hal situation was far worse - Hal went comic-book crazy - not depressed, not traumatized but Republic-serial villain.
The Hal Jordan situation was particularly egregious, since he was supposed to be the most strong-willed person *on the planet.* Superman would be drooling in the corner and Batman playing with crayons before Hal Jordan so much as had a whacky notion.
quote: I don't think we saw enough of this Jeckie to be that invested in her (I wasn't, anyway. The "Daddy, they might let me do something important" bit was one of the few things that stand out in memory).
The big deal for me here was that this wasn't the Projectra-who-married-Val-and-became-Sensor. This was someone who had, since her very first presentation, been depicted as a petulant brat who addressed her teammates as 'peasants.' *This* version of Projectra going evil means nothing to the characterization of the Projectra we grew up with, just as Snakejectra could have been drawn devouring small living furry mammals and it wouldn't have changed my opinion of the Nemesis-Kid-neck-snappin' Queen of Orando.
quote: I don't know if she was slated to die a villain or not
Someone was supposed to die. Could have been Lyle, could have been Brin, could have been Dirk, could have been Tinya, could have been Imra, could have been Jo, could have been Garth, could have been Brainy, could have been Projectra. Lots of people had targets on their foreheads, from a narrative standpoint and every one of the characters I just listed had dramatic story reasons why it could have been their final day. Looking at the cover of #50, it looks like Jan was in the death-seat, actually.
(Storywise, I don't think Gim, Violet, Trips, Thom, Shady, Cham or Ayla fit the bill. Shooter didn't do enough to 'set them up' for a fall. Then again, that would have made it all the more shocking if, say, Cham, Shady or Thom, was the death, as it would have felt more senseless and powerful.)
Plus, we have no idea if Projectra was going to remain evil at the end, or have the psychic trauma caused by the death of her family, people and world exorcised somehow. She could as easily have been cured after the tragic death of Brin defending her (or attempting to kill Sun Boy, because he thought that was what she wanted) and ended up erasing the menace she'd created, mirroring the changes that the original Projectra went through with the death of her spouse.
Unless Jim Shooter comes along and says so, we have no idea who was going to die, or whether or not Projectra was going to remain evil, and even if the threeboot spoiled Princess Projectra turned evil and died, it wouldn't taint in any way the original Projectra / Sensor, or the reboot snake chick, because they are very different characters.
Posted by Candle on :
quote:Originally posted by Set: Unless Jim Shooter comes along and says so, we have no idea who was going to die, or whether or not Projectra was going to remain evil, and even if the threeboot spoiled Princess Projectra turned evil and died, it wouldn't taint in any way the original Projectra / Sensor, or the reboot snake chick, because they are very different characters.
Wow, that's about as spot-on as anything I've ever read here! Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
I agree. I've said as much from time to time, but never as succinctly.
Posted by Matthew E on :
Here's one thing I wonder if anyone's considered.
Gazelle's real name is Giselle Smith.
So, obviously, she's a descendant of the Peacemaker, aka Christopher Smith. Right?
(Or does the DCU have a different famous 20th-21st century Smith that anyone would care to nominate?)
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
(groan)
I do hope you are joking.
Posted by Matthew E on :
I'm about 80% joking.
Posted by cleome on :
Is the other 20% a certain misgiving at the notion of damn near every futuristic hero inheriting the job/urge/title via bloodline ?
Because it does unnerve me, just a little...
Posted by Candle on :
quote:Originally posted by cleome: Is the other 20% a certain misgiving at the notion of damn near every futuristic hero inheriting the job/urge/title via bloodline ?
Well, we know Shady is. And XS. Brainy, too. sigh
But! We know Gates isn't!
There. I knew I loved the little buy for good reasons!
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
Remember, even Shady was around for almost 20 years before we had any hint of predecessor heroines.
Posted by Candle on :
Too true. sigh
I DID kind of hope that someone would establish a genetic connection between Gates and Shikari ~ not for ancestor/hero connection so much, but for romance possibilities! lol
Posted by MLLASH on :
STILL haven't bought it! I have avenged you all!
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
(swoon)
My hero! Posted by stephbarton on :
I have to say, reread Shooter's run yesterday (it was a SNOW DAY!).
Anyways, really enjoyed it, but when it came to issue 50, I looked at the cover, and well, I just put all the comics away.
someday I want to talk to Shooter and find out how he wanted issue 50 to end up, but until then I'll just see issue 49 as the end of the threeboot.
Posted by jimgallagher on :
quote:Originally posted by MLLASH: STILL haven't bought it! I have avenged you all!
No sweat, Lashy. I'll send you my copy! Posted by MLLASH on :
Don't threaten me! Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
Do not make me call a time-out, people! Posted by Sir Tim Drake on :
I returned the issue to the store today.
Just now, I was surprised to receive an e-mail from a certain DC executive who will go nameless, in response to an e-mail I sent him after the issue came out. He offered what I would characterize as an insincere apology. However, he quoted my e-mail, which suggested that he did actually read it, unlike my previous e-mail to him which he answered with a form letter. This is the first thing he's done that's made me think he has any desire to keep his customers happy.
I'm not at all sorry I returned the comic, though. If the store had refused to take it, I would have kept the cover and thrown away the interior pages.
Posted by MLLASH on :
Still haven't bought it!
Posted by MLLASH on :
I spent $61 today at the CBS and not one cent of it was on LSH # 50!
I did give it a quick flip-thru, though... thanks space for spoilers threads is all I'll say.
Posted by Harbinger on :
I haven't bought it either. Swear words can't express my disappointment at the cancellation so DC not getting another penny of my money until the LSH returns does.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
and asks Brainy to alter his avatar, making him more adult, muscular and handsome to impress Gazelle since she has never seen him. 
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
! and dream girl came back.![[LOL]](graemlins/lol.gif)
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
But Brainy, he recoverd somehow in time to save the day, just like always.![[Disgusting]](graemlins/puke.gif)
![[Sun Boy]](graemlins/SunBoy.gif)
side:![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[No]](graemlins/shake.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[tease]](graemlins/tease.gif)
![[slap]](graemlins/slap.gif)
![[Hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
![[Yes]](graemlins/nod.gif)