I have to admit that I'm both intrigued and frightened
At least they've got a head start
[ December 01, 2011, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: Reboot ]
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
I'm excited!
Posted by Chaim Mattis Keller on :
I like how they give the Byrne run its due right up there with the Lee & Kirby originals. A lot of folks agree that Byrne's run was best after L&K, but they actually said, in one phrase, "Lee and Kirby and Byrne." That speaks volumes to me about their sense of where this book is going.
And then they re-inforced that feeling by mentioning Mark Waid's run as third after those two.
I might just be tempted to start picking up FF again after many, many years.
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
I agree Chaim. His run is up there as a classic. It's really the only FF I actually collected month in and out. After Byrne I would read a friend's or get in trade(Waid/Ringo rocked too!)
Posted by Reboot on :
I really don't see where the so-called "greatness" in Waid's run comes from. He had no understanding of Doom whatsoever, and the four themselves seemed... devolved.
Mentioning Simonson as well is a good sign though. Although the CW take on Reed & Sue, especially, isn't a good sign.
Posted by Caliente on :
quote:Originally posted by Spellbinder: I have to admit that I'm both intrigued and frightened
My feelings exactly. Though, I have to admit, their "revamping the X-Books" frightened me a great deal more, so I'm glad that got pushed back at least.
quote:Originally posted by Reboot: I really don't see where the so-called "greatness" in Waid's run comes from. He had no understanding of Doom whatsoever, and the four themselves seemed... devolved.
Mentioning Simonson as well is a good sign though. Although the CW take on Reed & Sue, especially, isn't a good sign.
It's interesting that you say that, since Waid is the reason I started reading FF in the first place. I grabbed the TPB where Johnny was the Herald to Galactus and from there read back issues and things. I'll agree his Doom was lacking, but the team was much more of a family than when Millar was writing Civil War.
Which is where I also have to agree that I, too, am concerned. However, Millar did mention that it was important to the book to have it be all four of them and various things of that nature, so... yeah. I have hope, at least. (Far more than with JMS' run, which I found so incredibly boring. )
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
Reboot, I never called Waid's run great. I agree it was a bit devolved especially Johnny. But I thought it was entertaining, well written, and Ringo drew one of the best FFs.
I should reread Simonson's run. For some reason I don't remember if I liked it or not.
Posted by Spellbinder on :
I greatly enjoyed Byrne's run on FF. I thought the art was some of his best, and the stories were really good (Sue's miscarriage was heartbreaking).
I enjoyed much of Waid's run, but I wasn't too fond of the whole "FF goes to Heaven" arc.
Posted by Stealth on :
I'm disgusted.
I can't wait til there's a backlash against Millar and all the other shitty go-to writers at Marvel.
I often think the book should have been cancelled after Kirby left.
But then I remember how much I love the Simonson run (almost as much as I love his Thor and Orion runs)...
...and the Marv Wolfman/Keith Pollard/John Byrne run, which I think is very underrated; I probably like it so much because it was very heavy on the space opera and because Wolfman is one of the few writers who found a fresh approach to Dr. Doom (admittedly a great villain, but way overused) and Wolfman's future plans for Doom sounded really cool.
The Byrne writer/artist run is overrated IMO, although I like that he brought in She-Hulk to replace the Thing (he fell in love with her after guest-pencilling one of his friend Roger Stern's Avengers issues which crossed over with FF) and the issues that Jerry Ordway inked look beautiful.
And the JMS run started with such promise before it went beyond bad into toxic. Shame. And such a waste of Mike McKone's talent.
Englehart also did both some promising stuff and some awful stuff, and once again artistic talent (first John Buscema, then Keith Pollard) went largely to waste; I think if Englehart hadn't had so much interference from TPTB, he might have found his footing (even Lee & Kirby didn't hit the ground running IMO -- I think they only got really good when Joe Sinnott came aboard and the Inhumans were introduced, right about the same time.)
Still haven't read the Waid run; I haven't found any trades that collect it.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
I'm actually pretty excited. Millar & Hitch IMO have a lot of respect for the classic Marvel characters that they don't get credit for, and seem to understand that you need to stay true to the spirit of the series while giving the readers new ideas, concepts and characters without dwelling on the past. I'm intrigued on what they've got planned. I'm sure there will have to at least one Dr. Doom story, as all great FF runs must have, but I'm glad they won't be giving us a constant barage of old stories.
Really, FF is the series Millar was born to write given its cosmic scope and sense of anything crazy and mind-blowing can happen. He and Morrison are about the only two writers I can see doing it justice these days.
I've said this 1,000 times before on LW, but I also think Kirby and Lee's run is the greatest run ever on a comic, especially that middle run from around 'Calamity on Campus' to the 'Surfer/Doom' story. Byrne's run is equally awesome.
Personally, I'm with Reboot. Waid's run did nothing for me. I think he got them all wrong and it was flat and boring. JMS's run was one of the worst ever in the history of the FF, I'd even say worse than DeFalco's. Indeed, almost all of the FF writer's since Lee, with a handful of exceptions, have generally gotten the entire series wrong.
But I'm excited for this. And as long as Hitch can deliver the series on time, which apparently he will, this is a good thing.
Millar's run on Ultimate Fantastic Four was probably one of the best Marvel runs on a comic since 2000, and I'd say both that and his Wolverine run were far superior to Ultimate Vol #1 and #2, which I think are pretty good.
I have high hopes. This could be the best FF run during my lifetime of buying comics off the stands, since Byrne wrapped his run up when I was a wee lad, and the series has never been anything but sub-par since, though Claremont showed flashes of brillance despite himself (and Lobdell's run was cut excruciatingly short).
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Oh, let me say, art-wise, I enjoyed both Ringo and McKone. But bad or even sub-par writing kills a series for me a hundred times faster than the art would.
Posted by Lard Lad on :
Bryan Hitch is THE man these days as far as interior art, so I'm excited. I'm a little concerned about Millar, though. FF is all about respect for the tradition, so I hope he's mindful of that and doesn't turn it into Ultimates or Wanted.
But really, this is an exciting announcement!
Posted by Stealth on :
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Millar and Morrison are about the only two writers I can see doing it justice these days.
What about Peter David? I think he'd write a great FF (and before anyone says anything, no, I don't like everything that PAD writes -- Captain Marvel was usually too comedic and the Wonder Man mini-series was just awful.)
I don't want Morrison writing FF -- he'd turn Dr. Doom into a drug addict and have Doom destroy New York City.
quote:Originally posted by Lard Lad: Bryan Hitch is THE man these days as far as interior art
I like Hitch's art, I just wish he didn't work so often with writers I don't like. Anyone read the JLA oversized graphic novel from several years ago, Heaven's Ladder? Talk about widescreen goodness!
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Hm, I've never even thought of PAD on FF. At first, I'm almost hesitant, because I'd worry PAD would focus too much on internal family issues rather than the wide-screen cosmic craziness that I feel the FF should truly be. But then again, whenever someone tries to pigeon-hole PAD, he usually accepts the challenge and produces some of his best work ever, as Fallen Angel has proven. So maybe this could work.
But the only real cosmic comic I've ever seen him write is Captain Marvel, or at least that's the only one that comes to mind. I think the FF over the years has suffered tremendously on too much focus on the family aspect as based on daily life on Earth, rather than the implied, strong subtle family themes that anchor the FF in our world as they explore worlds that the mind can barely comprehend. Perhaps PAD could pull that off. Its a difficult thing to do, and I don't think many have been successful in the past.
Posted by Stealth on :
Cobie, PAD was handpicked by Jim Starlin to take over the writing of the very cosmic comic book Dreadstar; I seem to remember reading in another thread that you haven't read any of Dreadstar; I would actually recommend starting with PAD's issues -- 41 to 64 -- because they're better paced and have more action, and there's a plot recap on the inside front cover of every issue.
Posted by MLLASH on :
Well, I recently read the Millar UFF Vol. 6 TPB ("FRIGHTFUL") and it rawked.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
quote:Originally posted by Stealth: Cobie, PAD was handpicked by Jim Starlin to take over the writing of the very cosmic comic book Dreadstar; I seem to remember reading in another thread that you haven't read any of Dreadstar; I would actually recommend starting with PAD's issues -- 41 to 64 -- because they're better paced and have more action, and there's a plot recap on the inside front cover of every issue.
Now I'm really intrigued! My lack of Dreadstar reading is something I really need to correct. I've totally forgotten about looking for back issues of it!
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
I've never read Dreastar either.
You know this is going to give the FF some serious attention. I'm glad it isn't a Ultimate story, or a alternate timeline. It's the regular FF. I gotta give them kudos for that.
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
In an unrelated search, I followed a link that led to Mark Millar's website, millarworld, where I came across some info about the art that accompanied the announcement of the FF's new creative team.
Those panels with Sue and several women? Apparently, Invisible Woman is starting a super-team of her own, to be called the FRIENDS OF MISS AMERICA.
That alone, makes me interested.
Gotta say, though, that it's really sad that Wanda Maximoff (most likely) won't be included among the FRIENDS.
Looking at the art, I thought one of the women really looks like Crystal. That wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, given the events of SILENT WAR. However, it wouldn't be the first time that Sue Richards defied expectations by consorting with an 'enemy', would it?
Posted by Stealth on :
These pencilled pages by Bryan Hitch have been leaked. Enjoy them while you can (they've already been taken down from Newsarama.)
They look great, but I'm still not gonna buy the book. Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
Another thing. While I've always liked the FF I need a reason to buy the comic. I need either a new status quo, new creative team, or new event. I've never been a monthly collector of the book. I collect them by story arcs.
This seems like a good time to jump on. Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
I'm more excited for this than any other FF related thing in the last fifteen years (the time I've been 'reading it off the stands' as opposed to reading back issues...I started with FF #1 after all ).
Miller gets the FF and the 'spirit of the book', as shown in Ultimate FF. That intangible sense of understanding the 'spirit' or 'voice' of the series is important in all comics, but moreso with the FF than most. Waid, JMS and McDuffie (among numerous others) didn't quite excel at that.
Posted by Stealth on :
I decided to give it a fair chance and read it at the store.
The opening with the locomotive speeding through time & space would have been more thrilling if Simonson hadn't done the same thing 18 years ago.
The double-page splash of the space station was good...but Alan Davis drew a better one recently in FF: The End.
It's practical for Sue to pull her hair back, as she did during the Byrne era, but not in the trendily messy style of the 3boot Saturn Girl. Sue has more class than that.
Millar tries to do Stan Lee-style banter, but I think it comes off cheezy.
Millar's newfound earnestness feels, to me, just as insincere and calculated as his extended kill-shock-kill phase.
But even if I'd liked it, I still wouldn't have bought it, because I think Millar is a boil on the left buttock of the comic book industry, and I could never bring myself to contribute to his royalties.
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
I bought it and thought it was entertaining, but hardly world-shaking.
The part I was looking forward to the most-- the Friends of Miss America formation-- was a bit of a disappointment. The idea of a team formatted as a charity could be interesting... and I appreciate the mention of a relative of Madelaine Joyce's being involved.
However, with She-Hulk subbing for Valkyrie in the upcoming DEFENDERS story, and her being the 'go-to' sub for the FF for the last decade or so in place of the characters I'd like to see (Crystal and Medusa), it's getting to the point where I don't like the character again.
Marvel's apparently ignoring SILENT WAR, so why not have Crys as a FRIEND OF MISS AMERICA?
There's room for all, IMO. But that's not gonna happen.
At least Emma Frost wasn't there. Though even I can see how a writer would be tempted to use her for comic value alone.
I'm glad Wasp is included, though, as she's been shown as pretty much Sue's best super-gal friend. And she has the rich girl background that I'm sure includes charity work galore.
How long till there's a super-heroine fashion show? Super-hero auction/strip show?
I'm surprised they dusted off the Alyssa character and I wonder what she's going to bring to series?
Posted by Lance's realm on :
I thought the last issue was a real snoozer. Hope it gets better...
Posted by Stealth on :
I hope it gets WORSE, and does permanent damage to Millar's career and gets Quesada fired.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Read the first issue, and I thought it was a decent start. Not mind-blowingly amazing, but a good read.
It certainly had the sense of fun/no limits to granduer sense at the onset with the time travel sequence, which has generally been missing from the FF since Byrne.
I like Alyssia Moy too, so I'm glad someone remembers her other than me and Chris Claremont.
Posted by Stealth on :
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: It certainly had the sense of fun/no limits to granduer sense at the onset with the time travel sequence, which has generally been missing from the FF since Byrne.
How can it have been missing since Byrne if Simonson did the time travel sequence that Millar ripped off?
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
I don't think Simonson got the FF at all, and I'm a major fan of Walt's work. But his entire run left me feeling very underwhelmed.
What I mean is more a sense of the 'tone' and 'feel', which of course is highly subjective. I think Millar understands the granduer of Kirby's FF and the limitless of it. Usually Walt Simonsin does too, his Thor and even later Orion work showing that, but I just don't think he knew how to apply it to the very human characters of the FF.
I know you're not a Millar fan . I about 50/50 with Millar stories, but I did like his Ultimate FF, and I think he understands the tone of the series better than anyone in comics right now.
I have to say from the onset though that even though I've read most of the entire FF run, I don't really think anyone has gotten it right since Kirby and Lee, other than John Byrne. This includes all recent runs on the title (both Waid's and JMS's being two of the worst in FF history).
Posted by Clive on :
I rarely read the FF just because it is so hard to get right. I have read very little of the Lee/Kirby run, but having cut my teeth on them during the Byrne era, I do know what it takes. And I've very rarely been satisfied since.
One of the times I was satisfied was with Simonson's run, so I'll have to disagree with ya there, Des. I loved the crazy ideas, the bigger-than-life art, and most of all, I loved his take on Doom and his history! Coincedentally, that's the most controversial aspect of his run. But if you're the FF writer, this is exactly the kind of risk you have to take!
I also enjoyed Alan Davis's too, too, TOO short run on the title before giving way to Claremont! Ugh! Alan was born to do FF, dammit!!!
As for Waid/Wieringo, I enjoyed the first half of their run a lot, up thru that storyline which ended with the death of the Thing. The story with Ben's return was pretty good, too, but everything after that was forgettable...just too goofy, culminating with the final Galactus arc.
Ironically, the Jim Lee "Heroes Reborn" FF had its moments as well.
I'll definitely try Millar/Hitch, though. Their run on Ultimates was masterful! Though they'll have to use a different approach for the FF, they definitely get the chance from me that I never gave JMS's run or so many others.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
quote:Originally posted by Clive: One of the times I was satisfied was with Simonson's run, so I'll have to disagree with ya there, Des. I loved the crazy ideas, the bigger-than-life art, and most of all, I loved his take on Doom and his history! Coincedentally, that's the most controversial aspect of his run. But if you're the FF writer, this is exactly the kind of risk you have to take!
I agree wholeheartedly on that comment. To be the FF writer, that is precisely the risk you must always take.
I also enjoyed the first few issues of Jim Lee's run, but ultimately it wasn't good at all. That could be just b/c of the art though, and art is never enough for me. Its not even 50% of the battle. Plus, to me, a 'run' twelve issues does not make. A real run must be at least 18 . *Especially* when it comes to the FF.
Posted by Clive on :
One of the things you haveto do to prove yourself as FF writer is to tackle Doom. Not only do you have to take him on, but you also have to do something new with him. Byrne, Simonson and Waid did that. It's not the be-all, end-all of the job requirement, but it has to happen for you to be taken seriously.
Same is true of the Red Skull with Cap and the Joker with Batman. Spidey, oddly enough as great as his villains are, doesn't have that requirement in my opinion. You can ignore Doc Ock, the Goblins, etc. and still have a successful run if the writing's good enough.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
I agree with that. Doing it with Dr. Doom in the FF is probably the strongest example too. Certainly, he's more a part of a series as the main villain more than any other villain in any other series.
I personally think he's the single greatest comic book villain of all time.
Other titles where the villain must be addressed: Thor (Loki, though even if not used as full-on 'villain'), Superman (Luthor),
Other titles where it doesn't: Iron Man, Flash, Green Lantern.
But yeah, Doom needs to be addressed in any run of the FF. Even if you have a 50+ issue run, one really great Doom story can really pile on some credibility.
I'd also say: one of the things you have to do to prove yourself on the FF as writer is create one entirely (1) new villain/antagonist or (2) new situation / universe that causes the FF all kinds of problems. That's at the very least. I'd say to make yourself one of the FF greats, you'd have to do at least three.
Posted by Reboot on :
There's "doing something new with Doom" and there's "assassinating the character's character." Byrne, Simonson; I'll give you. Waid, like Marv Wolfman in FF200, did the latter.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
<-----------not a fan at all of what Waid did with Doom.
In fact: Doom + using spells = totally stupid
Posted by Reboot on :
I wouldn't say "totally stupid" [Hint: Read Roger Stern & Mike Mignola's Dr Strange/Dr Doom: Triumph and Torment. By any means necessary.] That's the least of the things I object to about that arc. Rejecting his armour, the means by which he procures a replacement, DOOM DEALING WITH $%^&ING DEMONS, Doom premeditatively putting anyone or anything in a position to have power over him, the "keeping his word" scene... all of these things are FAR higher on my "why that arc was stupid beyond measure" list.
Posted by Stealth on :
quote:Originally posted by Clive: One of the times I was satisfied was with Simonson's run, so I'll have to disagree with ya there, Des. I loved the crazy ideas, the bigger-than-life art, and most of all, I loved his take on Doom and his history! Coincedentally, that's the most controversial aspect of his run. But if you're the FF writer, this is exactly the kind of risk you have to take!
I agree 100%. I can only add that Simonson's futuristic re-design of Doom's armor was awesome (someone needs to bring it back) and that Simonson's battle between Reed and Doom was the most technically innovative FF sequence since Lee & Kirby in their prime; to date, no subsequent FF creator has equalled it.
quote:Orignally posted by Clive: I also enjoyed Alan Davis's too, too, TOO short run on the title before giving way to Claremont! Ugh! Alan was born to do FF, dammit!!!
Have you read Davis's alternate-universe mini-series, Fantastic Four: The End? I admit it's not Davis doing the "real" FF, but it's still quite good.
Posted by Clive on :
Des, can you clue us in as to why Simonson's run didn't do it for you ("underwhelmed")? I'll admit the "new FF" storyline was gimmicky (but still kinda fun)--is that your main objection?
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Pretty much. I admit I haven't read it since my mid-teens and when I did read it, I read the entire Fantastic Four run from #1 to then present day issue, which was around the time Reed and Doom were supposedly dead.
I'm not calling it terrible by any means (and I do call JMS's run terrible). The Doom/Reed sequence you both mention I can recall and remember enjoying it too. In fact, I don't mind the Simonson/Doom retcon that much at all.
Just all and all it felt like a lackadazical effort to me. And while I appreciate seeing Thor and Iron Man and others in the FF, that didn't feel right either here.
Maybe one day I'll give this run a second chance .
But like I said, I don't really think any FF run besides Byrne can compare to Kirby and Lee, which are not just better, but are a lot better than the rest.
Now if you want to discuss Simonson's Thor, I can give you an issue by issue example of why it was so great, since that left a much more positive impression on me (and yeah--nerd that I am, I read that entire run too from JiM #83 up).
Posted by Clive on :
quote:Originally posted by Stealth:
quote:Originally posted by Clive: One of the times I was satisfied was with Simonson's run, so I'll have to disagree with ya there, Des. I loved the crazy ideas, the bigger-than-life art, and most of all, I loved his take on Doom and his history! Coincedentally, that's the most controversial aspect of his run. But if you're the FF writer, this is exactly the kind of risk you have to take!
I agree 100%. I can only add that Simonson's futuristic re-design of Doom's armor was awesome (someone needs to bring it back) and that Simonson's battle between Reed and Doom was the most technically innovative FF sequence since Lee & Kirby in their prime; to date, no subsequent FF creator has equalled it.
It's extremely dissappointing to me that this story was ignored by subsequent writers. In fact I seem to recall a story (possibly by DeFalco) explaining how it wasn't really Doom. Ugh!
To me, that's the single best Doom story (and one of the best FF stories) ever written, so it pisses me off how it's been swept aside!
I also think Simonson's version of the armor (or a modification of it) was reused for Doom 2099. What a waste!
quote:Have you read Davis's alternate-universe mini-series, Fantastic Four: The End? I admit it's not Davis doing the "real" FF, but it's still quite good.
No, I'd heard about it and thought about picking it up, but I'm not a big fan of those types of stories unless it's set in the ongoing title and affects its storyline (the best ever being X-Men's "Days of Future Past"). That said, I still may pickl it up some time because I'm such a big fan of his take on the characters.
Posted by Clive on :
Des, Lee/Kirby and Byrne were definitely superior (and longer), but I did feel that Simonson got the FF. And that, fundamentally, is the most important thing. Plus, the Doom storyline and the multi-parter that started his run were just plain kickass!
Simonson's Thor? One of the best runs on any comic EVER!!! I think the whole thing was effin' awesome, even after Sal Buscema took over on art. Hell, even something as ludicrous as Thor Frog just kicked ASS! Man--they just don't DO comics like those Simonson Thor issues any more!
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Yeah, agree about Siminson's Thor, and also include Sal Buscema's issues as part of that (which I also feel are A+ excellent). Like I said, I could talk that entire run up anytime Posted by Clive on :
Sal's art really was terrific when he took over! Though he obviously adjusted his own style to compare to Walt's, I found it very appealing.
What I wouldn't give to see Walt back on Thor and Byrne back on FF! Maybe you can't go home again, but I'd sure like to find out! Byrne has said repeatedly he'd do FF again, but I don't think that'll happen as long as Quesada's in power. Posted by Stealth on :
quote: 27. FANTASTIC FOUR 04/03 Fantastic Four #68 - 51,405 04/04 Fantastic Four #512 - 52,953 04/05 Fantastic Four #525 - 45,561 04/06 Fantastic Four #537 - 62,940 ===== 04/07 Fantastic Four #545 - 77,576 ( -9.5%) 05/07 Fantastic Four #546 - 72,182 ( -7.0%) 06/07 Fantastic Four #547 - 69,610 ( -3.6%) 07/07 — 08/07 Fantastic Four #548 - 65,695 ( -5.6%) 08/07 Fantastic Four #549 - 61,770 ( -6.0%) 09/07 — 10/07 Fantastic Four #550 - 57,906 ( -6.3%) 11/07 Fantastic Four #551 - 58,617 ( +1.2%) 12/07 Fantastic Four #552 - 51,320 ( -12.4%) 01/08 Fantastic Four #553 - 48,332 ( -5.8%) 02/08 Fantastic Four #554 - 98,111 (+103.0%) 03/08 Fantastic Four #555 - 67,416 ( -31.3%) 04/08 Fantastic Four #556 - 65,013 ( -3.6%) 6 mnth ( +12.3%) 1 year ( -16.2%) 2 year ( +3.3%) 3 year ( +42.7%) 4 year ( +22.8%) 5 year ( +26.5%)Levelling out pretty quickly, but the book remains mired at the level of its “Initiative” tie-ins. With an A-list creative team like Mark Millar and Bryan Hitch, it’s very surprising to see the book this far down the chart.
At this rate, it's going to end up with about the same sales as the McDuffie issues. How delightful. Posted by Stealth on :
Introducing the NEW new creative team for FF: Jonathan Hickman & Dale Eaglesham.
Eaglesham's an undeniable talent, but then so is Bryan Hitch and he couldn't rescue FF from Millar's vapid writing.
It's all down to the writer, so who the hell is Jonathan Hickman??
Posted by Reboot on :
quote:Originally posted by Stealth: It's all down to the writer, so who the hell is Jonathan Hickman??
The guy who's writing the soon-to-start five-issue Dark Reign: Fantastic Four comic with Sean Chen doing art.
Presumably, his first F4-proper issue will be, in effect, DR:F4 #6.
Posted by Stealth on :
quote:Originally posted by Reboot:
quote:Originally posted by Stealth: It's all down to the writer, so who the hell is Jonathan Hickman??
The guy who's writing the soon-to-start five-issue Dark Reign: Fantastic Four comic with Sean Chen doing art.
Presumably, his first F4-proper issue will be, in effect, DR:F4 #6.
Thanks.
I might look at DR:FF in the store and see what I think. And I'll definitely look at the first Hickman/Eaglesham FF issue and see what I think.
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
I stopped picking this up several months ago. No big dramatic reason-- I'd just never added it to my pull list and then neglected to grab it off the stands and never really missed it all that much.
I discovered that part of what I really liked about the FF was the prospect of The Inhumans or Namor or Thundra guest-starring for extended runs. That sort of thing doesn't appear to be likely currently, so I'm not as interested.
Anyway, I remember there was something about an alternate universe Human Torch appearing who was gay? Did that ever happen? And, if so, what issue(s)?
Also, was anything more made of Sue's all-girl team, the Miss America Society (or something like that)? That was a thread I wanted to read more about...
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
As I get to the end of my comic book reading pile of 6+ weeks, I’m finding some comics that are pleasantly surprising, like Astro City and some that are disappointing. The penultimate issue of Millar and Hitch’s run on Fantastic Four falls into this category.
There is nothing really wrong with their run, and its not bad. Millar has crafted two new adversaries for the FF that he obviously is excited about, and Hitch has given them a good look. But you know what…it still feels all kind of boring for me. In fact, the entire run can be summed like that: “okay, not bad, but…when do things get exciting?”
I know people on the internet tend to either love or hate Millar, and many consider him the anti-christ of comic book writers. I actually think he’s a pretty good writer, but sometimes I love what he’s doing and sometimes I don’t. I think his runs on Ultimate Fantastic Four and Wolverine in recent years were some of the best stuff I’ve read; on the other hand, my feelings towards his Ultimates run were mixed and his Civil War miniseries was only okay. He’s also done things I simply didn’t like. He is talented, that’s for sure, but sometimes it just doesn’t translate to the page. Hitch is also a great talent but I personally think you can tell when his stuff is rushed—and this is rushed artwork.
But Millar has fallen into the trap that so many other teams on the FF have done: they simply just can’t seem to make the book exciting and fresh. It appears almost no one will ever be able to do that again since Kirby left way back in the late 60’s. The only one IMO that has ever done a fantastic job, is John Byrne.
In fact, Millar & Hitch’s run kind of reminds me of Mark Waid and Mike McKone’s run. Millar, like Waid, is both good and bad at times but a person you would think could do a great job. Yet, I think Waid’s run was even more of a letdown than Millar’s; I can’t see why anyone likes it at all. McKone’s artwork was the shining element that saved that run; here, Hitch’s artwork at times has come close (early in the run), but he actually doesn’t hold the story together like McKone did.
As for Millar’s “big bad two”…the truth is, they are still too derivative of Dr. Doom. And Millar does the same thing others have done, by making Dr. Doom look like a failure. Writers and some readers need to face the fact that Dr. Doom is one of comic book’s greatest villains, if not its actual greatest. He is certainly Marvel Comics greatest super-villain in their history. And Marvel needs to recognize this and restore him to the majesty he deserves. Because when they go the opposite route, it just fails on so many levels, time and time again. Once I read those sequences, I began to write this entire run off as another ‘meh’ type storyline. As in: “Wow, have new guys show up and trash the classic villain. Yawn. Seen it before. Hated it then.” Especially because you know that stuff never sticks.
So, all in all, this run wasn’t a failure. It was just more of the same thing that has always haunted the FF since 1969 with a couple of exceptions along the way: creative teams just not being able to get it, or at least keep the spirit of the FF going strong and keeping the book exciting. I hope Jonathan Hickman, whose been relatively impressive so far, can do better.
Posted by Reboot on :
When were Waid/McKone on F4? Wasn't it Waid/Weiringo(/Porter) and JMS/McKone?
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Ah, you're correct. I'd gotten mixed up. Message is still the same, only moreso:
Waid / Ringo - Ringo's art was terrific, Waid's writing pretty mediocre.
Millar / Hitch - enjoyed Millar's writing more than Waid or JMS, but enjoyed Hitch's art less than Ringo and McKone.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
People still checking out the Jonathan Hickman & Dale Eaglesham run?
I thought the first story was pretty solid, even though it was another Reed-centric story. Hickman kind of explains it in the letter column, and his explanation makes sense. In a way it felt like he's giving Reed a reason to put a definitive stop to the Civil War-type damage and characterization thats been done to Reed these last few years so he can end that and move things in another directon. It took Hickman three issues to do it, but if it truly is what he's saying, then I'm okay with it. I did like the Reed / National Richards scenes because they added some depth to Reed we haven't seen in years.
Meanwhile, the art is kick-ass, as I'd suspect. Eaglesham is one of my favorites in comics right now.
I'm looking forward to what they have in store next. Hopefully its some high-level adventure.
Posted by Set on :
Is Reed finally admitting that he was wrong, and starting to apologize for sending cape-killers after his wife, best friend and brother in law, as well as getting Bill Foster killed, etc., etc.?
'Cause, to me, he's too far gone to 'bring back,' at this point. When Hank Pym has the moral high ground on you, it's time to examine your life choices...
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Hickman and Eaglesham continue their run though the latter takes the issue off for a fill-in (its a noticeable change that is distracting). Hickman's run so far is better than I expected but its still not really all that great. Its mediocre so far, on the verge of getting really good (it has its moments).
This issue had Franklin have a birthday party and while it was sweet to see Artie and Leech (and I'm glad they might find a permanent home here) and funny to see Spider-Man with Johnny and the Thing, I felt it was a little too 'light'. This is the FF, and I need some sense of danger here--I need something scary / edgy / tension-filled / weird, *even* in a down issue. That's what Kirby did and that should be the formula. No full-on downtime issues in the FF. EVER.
Franklin ends up with his powers back and again with some potential Val & Franklin time travel stuff. Which means there is once more some speculation on if they might exit the title completely. Where once I might have found the thought atrocious, I'm not really all that worried anymore either way--whatever they do, I just want it to be good, and I want it to matter. If the kids ever leave the series, grow up in the future, whatever (all the various things they've done over the years but quickly undid), then they need to just full-on go for it. Because I don't have the energy for another half-way story with Franklin and Val.
FF remains pretty good but only pretty good. I'm still waiting for another great, kick-ass run.
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
I've liked Hickman and Eaglesham's run quite a bit. With #576, they revisit and perhaps return(?) the FF to their roots in exploring.
Here- the FF visits an alliance of three undersea nations isolated from the rest of the world beneath the ice of Antarctica who call their realm Atlantis. The FF, who fund a station above them, have to expedite the slower, nonsuperhuman exploration beneath the ice because of a tech-race with agents of AIM. They battle these agents in an extended battle scene set in the waters just beneath the ice, rendered without dialogue or narrative.
Guess who wins?
Sue steps forward in a big way here. Her status as 'head of the foundation' has been mentioned and even spotlighted before, but this is the first time I've really grasped just what that meant. In light of Reed's many and varied fields of interest and invention.
Folks, it isn't just the use of her superpowers or even her intelligence and will that make "Susan of the Richards, Susan of the Storm" a powerful woman.
I hope this isn't forgotten.
Though she'd give all of that up in instance for her family, as we see her playfully relating with Johnny and Ben at issue's beginning.
Loved (not just for the beefcake) the image of shirtless Johnny in shorts (bearing a flaming motif) with matching cowboy boots and an unzippered parka surrounded by folks bundled up to ward off the cold he obviously doesn't notice.
There's a sort of addendum on the last page, in text, telling us that Sue has tried to contact Namor to arrange an introduction to the 'old kings' of Atlantis.
Bet that'll go over.
And then there's the blurb, 'Universal Inhumans'. I don't think the Attilan folk are the ones that'll be featured, though I'm dying for a follow-up to SILENT WAR, leading to reconciliation between teams that should be close-knit. At the least, I'd like to read Johnny's reaction to Crystal's marriage. Remember how he felt about Quicksilver... and didn't Ronan debut as an FF foe?
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
I’ve caught up on two of the most recent Fantastic Four issues and following up on my initial impressions of Hickman’s and Eaglesham’s run, I’ve got to say, I’m pretty damn impressed. #575 and #576 were FANTASTIC.
Though its part of a larger storyline, each individual issue is basically self-contained, and done in a way that fully takes advantage of the self-contained format. Each issue provides needed suspense, character interaction, science-fiction and feels like a complete story, which a part of something larger. Very well done, and something few series can get right these days (an example of one that does it right being Jonah Hex).
More than that, Hickman has suddenly started knocking it out of the park! Here is what the Fantastic Four should be: a series about exploration and science-fiction! Not “just another Marvel superhero series”, which so many writers fall into, but a series that pushes the boundaries and takes us to new places. Above all else, Hickman in just a few issues apparently has begun the process to restoring the sense of grandeur in the FF, which is the most important competent of the series when it was at it finest and the one most noticeably missing for a long, long time. I like it! The two stories were quirky and off-beat, but in the Kirby-esque way that gives you that larger sense of scale and ‘wow’ factor. And that’s about the highest praise I can give a Fantastic Four series. As I’ve said in the past, I think almost all FF runs have failed other than the Kirby/Lee run which defined it, and the Byrne run of the 80’s (brief moments notwithstanding through the 50 years from 1962).
On the art chores, Eaglesham is rendering some mind-blowing depictions! In fact, I think it’s a safe bet to say his artwork is the star of the show here, as he’s just showcasing his talent in a way that’s been needed. I loved him on JSA, particularly drawing all the array of characters, and now I love him here, depicting different types of aliens, cities, underwater species, battles, and all kinds of awesome science-fiction ideas. I also find the way he draws the individual FF to be very well done and the best I’ve seen in years—probably IMO, since John Byrne. His Sue is strong & beautiful, his Reed is hard-working and thoughtful, his Franklin & Val are cute but spunky, Johnny is dashing and the Thing rocks. He already has it down to a science, and I can’t wait to be more. And to borrow a course of praise I already used, his style is very evocative of Jack Kirby, which is the other side of helping restore the scale of exploration and grandeur. Like Byrne took the Kirby-style of the FF and applied his own style in the 80’s way, Eaglesham is applying his own style in a very modern way. I’m quite impressed.
The entire run thus has taken a bit of time to build up steam. I think the writer & artist needed to find their footing and they have done so. My above comments from a few months ago saw me think there was potential but not quite seeing it yet. Here, I think the potential has begun to be reached. I’ve been let down by so many FF runs that I’ve grown cynical, but for the first time in a long time, I feel upbeat about it. I was disappointed with Millar, I hated Waid’s run and I can hardly remember the other so-so runs in between and prior. I take a very critical eye to the Fantastic Four, having read so much of it over the years. In the Silver Age, it was Marvel’s Flagship title—everyone who collected Marvel collected the FF and Spider-Man. Somewhere after Kirby left, it was reduced to yet another Marvel superhero series that redid the Silver Age stories again and again to lesser levels of quality. Byrne came in and restored the glory but after he left, the series fell into the same holding pattern as many other great series did in the 90’s and this past decade.
I think here, we might have something. I will definitely keep a keen eye on the series and look forward for more.
Note, the stories, are not going to be mind-blowing and epic in terms of multi-part, life-altering stories yet; rather, I’m speaking in the sense of restoring the spirit of the series and changing the focus, even slightly. With this in place, I can see Hickman building to some of those major game-changing stories. But first, he needs to return the FF to what makes it unique among the Marvel U. And without harping on all that “family” crap in a way that makes it over-dramatic; that has its place too, but it needs to be actually done in the story rather than talked about endlessly.
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
Oh, no! Eaglesham's been moved to a new Captain America SUPER-SOLDIER title! That might be a fine title, since it'll feature the original Cap in a new role, but I've really, really liked what the Hickman/Eaglesham duo has been doing and was excited for a nice, longish run.
Not to be, not to be.
I hope Hickman sticks around and gets an artist that pretty much works similarly to Eaglesham.
Posted by doublechinner on :
The Steve Rogers book is a 4-issue limited, so maybe there is some hope Eaglesham won't be leaving FF.
I've kind of enjoyed these comics. I think they do capture core elements of FF lore in new ways. But I also think Hickman and Eaglesham need to work on meshing the narrative and the visuals better. There are pacing problems between the density of the stories and the visuals. In the Mole Man story, for example, you had this huge page of the High Evolutionary city, and it was supposed to be moving up, but the visual (while beautiful) did not capture that AT ALL. Then, in classic 1960s "no budget for visuals" style, the FF find a way to escape with no corresponding visual. As a result, the climax of the story was a big "huh?" for me. Likewise, the Atlantis story had one murky, claustrophobic panel after another. I realize that was the environment the FF was in, and I applaud the artist's attempt to depict that, but it lacked some essential element of narrative power. I begin to wonder if Eaglesham is one of those artists whose images are beautiful, but ultimately static--perfect for emotional panels, but weak for action panels. Criticisms aside, I'm thrilled to see such a strong attempt to reinvigorate the FF, making it's rich history relevant to a new generation.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
I read the latest Universal Inhumans issue and again--I'm just blown away at how damn good FF has been lately! This standalone-yet-interconnected arc of stories "Four Cities" has just been pure brillance!
Again, we see the sense of exploration and adventure all the way through the issue! Magnificent! I feel like the FF of Lee/Kirby with Jules Verne thrown in!
Again, we get a really cool sci-fi update to some great classic FF concepts, here the Inhumans with a more galactic view. Love it!
Again, Eaglesham is just brillant. I desperately hope he doesn't leave the FF for good because his artwork just works so well here. The pages are just popping with energy and the quirky sense of weird the FF really always needs to have. I haven't liked an artist this much on FF in years--I honestly can't remember when.
Great, great stuff. Jonathan Hickman is really winning me over between this and the newly launched SHIELD.
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
#578-- Johnny's such a knucklehead. Likeable, but, Lord, it's a good thing he's good-looking...
I think when Black Bolt comes back and meets his new 'brides', he's going to wish he stayed presumed dead in The Fault. Who thinks he's really gone forever? I certainly don't. Nor would I want him to be.
What a bizarre turn the Four Cities story is taking...
Namor's response was pretty much what I thought it'd be (I'm a little disappointed there-- I would've liked something a little different in this instance).
I'm defintely interested and intrigued to see how much of the MU will be pulled into this event. So far, it's casting the nets verrry wide, while simultaneously keeping all the expected players 'offscreen'. Interesting.
Posted by Fanfic Lass on :
I want to thank Cobie, Todd, and Doublechinner for keeping this thread afloat with discussions of Hickman's FF.
When Hickman's first issue came out, I Byrne-stole it and wasn't impressed, but after seeing all the praise here and on another site, I borrowed the library's copy of the first Hickman FF trade.
Now, read as a whole, the Council of Reeds three-parter revealed itself as impeccably crafted by both Hickman and Eaglesham. It hit all the right notes and all the right beats, it was scrumptious to look at (Eaglesham has done an amazing job of developing his own prettier variation of the iconic Kirby look.)
And yet...it left me cold.
At first, I couldn't figure out why. Then it came to me.
I've been in denial about it for almost 20 years, but I have never liked Reed, Sue, or Johnny. My enjoyment of select past FF runs has entirely hinged on two things: 1) Ben Grimm, and 2) Whether or not the creative team is to my taste.
At its core, the FF is a book about a witty, unpretentious, down-to-earth freak trapped within a Stepford Family.
It just so happened that this was the book where Stan & Jack unleashed their wildest imaginings.
Otherwise, it would never have survived as long as it has.
This is entirely in my humble opinion, of course. I'm sure many will disagree, and I respect your opinions.
But I have to thank you guys for helping me figure out just what it was about the FF that failed to convince me it was ever "The World's Greatest Comic Magazine" (and, yes, I'm well aware that Stan's hype was tongue-in-cheek, but many people, understandably in the case of those lucky enough to have been kids during the Silver Age, took to heart.)
Now, having said all that, if my FF Dream Team of Peter David & Todd Nauck ever get their shot at the FF, I'll read it. Despite PAD's recent decline, I think he'd bounce back if he got to write the FF -- but that's a whole other topic.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
FL—I’ve got to say, that’s a great post!
On the one hand, I don’t really agree with it, but on the other, you really bring up a couple of good points.
The first is that Reed, Sue & Johnny are often portrayed in not a good light. Reed, specifically has been written by some writers in an awful way that I personally loathe and its become a real personal pet peeve for me, so that I want to tell those writers they deserve a kick to the genitalia. But what’s funny is the fans are always quite willing to call Reed out on that, and yet, Sue and Johnny are (IMO) equally shown to be kind of jerkish and annoying at times. The line from ‘charming’ to ‘asshole’ on Johnny is pretty thin and many writers can’t seem to work it. Meanwhile, so many writers go out of their way to make Sue a stronger character (and therefore, fail to recognize she already is one) and she comes across as majorly condescending and a buzzkill. Let’s be honest here: sure, writers screw up Reed’s character quite a bit and make him come off as unlikeable, but Sue and Johnny have gotten the same treatment time and time again.
Now, all that being said I like all three characters quite a bit and think that’s just a symptom of bad writers on the FF over the years, or at least good writers failing to deliver the goods. So that’s where we disagree—I think all four characters are great, likeable and noble characters.
The second point you made that I really agree on is this: the Fantastic Four, as a comic book, lives and dies on the strength of the Thing. It’s always been that way, particularly in the franchise’s formative years, and in the decades since, whenever the Thing does not get the respect he deserves, is treated like a moron or is simply ignored, the Fantastic Four comic book suffers tremendously.
One of the major crimes in the history of Marvel is how much Marvel has allowed the Thing to be softened up over the years. He was akin to Wolverine in the Silver Age in terms of edginess, ferocity and popularity. Yet, sometime in the 70’s and beyond, he has gradually lost his edge. Sometimes now he comes across as a bumbling, lovable loser. I *hate* that portrayal of him. He’s got a heart of gold—absolutely. But, he’s not a flowery, aw-shucks kind of guy that would abstain from a conflict. He once betrayed the Fantastic Four to the Frightful Four, and and actually meant it without mind control or anything. Obviously, they shouldn’t go down that road again, but it shows this is a guy not to be trifled with. He doesn’t turn the other cheek or throw a fight to let some dude feel good about himself; he hands out a beating if he has to. He’s a tragic character, but they’ve removed a large degree of the tragedy and that’s hurt him.
I absolutely reject the stupid notion that many fans & creators have that the FF is a family unit and the Thing & Torch are adolescents to Reed & Sue’s adults. That’s a bunch of crap, and so anti-Kirby it hurts. It undermines the Thing’s quiet dignity, focues solely on Johnny’s bad qualities and sets up Reed & Sue to look pompous.
Now, I’m pretty happy with the current creative team, and am enjoying the run in a huge way. But you bring up some solid points on the FF in the broader sense so I thought I’d add my two cents.
Posted by Fanfic Lass on :
Much appreciated, Cobie. Amen to everything you said about the Thing and about the "family unit" misconceptions!
And I have to say that I probably will continue to borrow the Hickman FF trades from the library, because what he's doing is solid enough and certainly the best FF in eons. But to get me to actually BUY the FF again would require a writer that I really hold in high esteem.
Posted by Fanfic Lass on :
quote:Originally posted by Fanfic Lass: But to get me to actually BUY the FF again would require a writer that I really hold in high esteem.
I saw that today and wondered if that would do the trick!
Posted by Fanfic Lass on :
LOL
U know me 2 well, Cobie. Posted by Dev Em on :
I was on my way to post this...for FL.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
I was pretty bummed when I heard Eaglesham wasn't staying on, but Epting coming on took away the sting pretty quickly!
Posted by Officer Taylor on :
[Title edited to be more encompassing. "New Creative Team for Fantastic Four" seems a little limiting a title, dontchathink? Don't worry--just because I edited two titles in one day, it doesn't mean I'm all mad with power or anything! ]
Posted by Officer Taylor on :
Epting? FUCK YEAH!!!
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Officer Taylor: [ it doesn't mean I'm all mad with power or anything! ]
Well shoot, that was the whole point of giving you the power, was to see how quickly you flipped out and turned into a megalomaniac!
We even had a pool going.
Please post a list of outrageous demands, or threaten to shut down a thread or something, 'cause if you don't by Wednesday, I owe MLLASH 200 quatloo!
[I'll split the winnings with you! Don't tell him!]
Posted by Officer Taylor on :
I should edit that post for the unflattering insinuations, Set!
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Well, as excited as I am about Epting's oncoming arrival, I just read #579 and it was so incredibly and amazingly fantastic that I could not help but be even more excited about that instead. And this issue neither had Eaglesham's explosive pencils nor Epting's incredile talent, but rather the relatively unknown art of Neil Edwards & Andrew Currie, who do a very fine job.
Rather, this issue was so incredible because writer Jonathan Hickman has revealed another layer to his immense talent, as the larger tapestry he is weaving together begins to become slightly more clear to the reader. The sheer scope and epic nature of his run is something that you can feel pulsating on every page, much like his work on S.H.I.E.L.D. thus far, and now even moreso. Up until now, he had been giving us sneak previews, one-issue stories that were great in their own right but left you wondering how they tied into the larger FF mythos. And now, we begin to see that they sure will *somehow* even if its hard to say how.
The crux of the story doesn't sound all that exciting but it worked so incredibly well that I thought it was probably the single most defining moment for Reed in decades that showed off what an incredible, dynamic and noble character he is, even if that nobility is somehow more geared towards the pursuit of knowledge & betterment of humanity than the day to day relationships he sometimes forgets. He dissolves his old collective of the world's scientists and humanitarians and creates his new Future Foundation full of children and various others and it just felt really exciting.
Hickman brings back everyone from his previous stories and we can see how they fit into this Future Foundation: Alex Power, the Wizard's boy clone, the Moloids (who are freaking awesome by the way, including the floating head one), the Four Cities, Dragon Man (now being updated by Valeria), the always awesome Artie & Leech and of course, Frankie & Val. The Baxter Building just feels so full of life right now its great. Other subplots like the Wizard himself and Nu-World also seem full of possibilities.
Each of the 'Four Cities' stories served as a way to put the spotline on one of the FF so this issue kind of took a step back even if Reed had a lot of screen time. Still, it was great to Sue in her new role as Ambassador to the Peak of Old Atlantis. Also very nice to see Johnny giving Franklin *good* advice rather than the typical 'played for laugh' advice lesser writers would have him giving.
Hickman is doing the incredible: he's restoring that undefinable sense of wonder to the Fantastic Four. The series has a renewed energy that has built-up gradually; it didn't feel that way at first but by now it's certainly there.
Edwards & Currie actually do a great job on the art chores. They're not quite Eaglesham, but they get it done in a good way. Now imagine when Epting comes on? This could end up being Marvel's best title!
Reed's speech was something to behold. I wish he could give that to the world right now: corporations, politicians, the media and more than anyone else, academia.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Still one damn excellent Fantastic Four comic by Hickman. This far into the run and I can say this blows all previous FF runs of the last 2 decades out of the water: Waid, Millar, Claremont, etc.
Really enjoying this latest time-traveling craziness arc with Franklin, Val and Nathaniel Richards. Hickman has somehow managed to wield a tale that actually feels like it fits with the entirely of FF history which is no easy feat, while feeling incredibly fresh. Whatever happens with Franklin & Val, it feels daring and true to the series at the same time.
Posted by Fanfic Lass on :
I read Epting's first FF issue, and while I thought his art was typically faultless, the story left something to be desired. Hickman seems to put together a story the way a weaver puts together a tapestry. There's a bittiness to Hickman's FF work, not only the individual issues but even the arcs themselves. If Hickman is able to pull off one huge overarching storyline, I'll be impressed, but I'm skeptical.
Having said that, at least Hickman is trying something different rather than just re-hashing Stan & Jack's work. What's going to be the make-or-break factor of Hickman's run is which member ends up dying.
If it's Reed, which seems most likely, it carries unpleasant echoes of the Tom DeFalco FF run.
If it's Sue, there's arguably no reason for the other three to stay together.
If it's Johnny, well, I never cared much for Johnny, and I suspect many people feel the same.
If it's Ben, it could either destroy the book or finally move it forward for the first time in 40 years. I love Ben, but the more I think about it, the more I believe that his full story has already been told (and retold and retold.) And without Ben to outshine them, the other three could finally come into their own.
So I'm taking a 180 degree turn from my previous statements in this thread, and hope it's Ben.
Posted by Chief Taylor on :
quote:Originally posted by Fanfic Lass: I read Epting's first FF issue, and while I thought his art was typically faultless, the story left something to be desired. Hickman seems to put together a story the way a weaver puts together a tapestry. There's a bittiness to Hickman's FF work, not only the individual issues but even the arcs themselves. If Hickman is able to pull off one huge overarching storyline, I'll be impressed, but I'm skeptical.
Having said that, at least Hickman is trying something different rather than just re-hashing Stan & Jack's work. What's going to be the make-or-break factor of Hickman's run is which member ends up dying.
If it's Reed, which seems most likely, it carries unpleasant echoes of the Tom DeFalco FF run.
If it's Sue, there's arguably no reason for the other three to stay together.
If it's Johnny, well, I never cared much for Johnny, and I suspect many people feel the same.
If it's Ben, it could either destroy the book or finally move it forward for the first time in 40 years. I love Ben, but the more I think about it, the more I believe that his full story has already been told (and retold and retold.) And without Ben to outshine them, the other three could finally come into their own.
So I'm taking a 180 degree turn from my previous statements in this thread, and hope it's Ben.
^Fickles (you like that one?), I'm putting little to no thought into who buys it because I know it'll be overturned before too long. No sense getting worked up either way, I'd say.
I think only Sue or Johnny have never died before (Ben died for a minute during Waid & Wiering's run), so it should be one or the other unless Hickman's okay with being repeticious.
Hypothetically, I'd say Sue dying would be the most devastating. She's truly the glue that keeps all of them together. Like I said, doesn't really matter because whoever goes won't be gone any longer than Cap was at the most.
Posted by Fanfic Lass on :
I do like "Fickles."
Regarding the "deathwatch", I agree that the "death" will be inevitably overturned, though probably not as long as Hickman's writing the book. But I also think that any member dying will have major repercussions on the quality of the book's direction, and I just hope they're to my liking, because it would suck to buy the book just for Epting's art. And, yes, I buy ANYTHING Epting draws -- I even have Epting's Howard Mackie X-Factor issues!!!!! And the Team X/Team 7 crossover!!!!!!! Posted by Chief Taylor on :
I think the "tapestry" statement Fickles ( ) makes above is very apt. The downside being that many individual issues feel pretty unsatisfying in and of themselves. They don't really stand on their own very well. I'd say that's become more and more the case since about the start of the "four cities" issues. Before that, the stories were more satisfying. Since that began, there have been more and more "wtf" moments a la Grant Morrison, especially all that Nu-Earth stuff.
It's the primary problem I've ever had with Morrison. Not that I need my comics dumbed down necessarily, just that I shouldn't have to wait years for any of it to ever pay off or even make a lick of sense (if ever) as with Morrison's Batman stuff. That's definitely a feeling I'm getting more and more with Hickman's FF and with his S.H.I.E.L.D. as well. I don't mind mysteries and, well, tapestries, but play fair with your audience at the same time and engage them with your storytelling.
This sounds tremendously critical of Hickman, I'm aware. For the most part I'm enjoying his comics a lot. But I'm a little wary at the same time, and if he goes to far down that path, he's in danger of losing me down the road.
Honestly, though, I can't see any death being more impactful to the book than either Reed or Sue.
Posted by razsolo on :
I stopped buying the FF when Millar took over, and I started buying it again when Hickman started his run. I was initially impressed, but not enough to continue buying it....I find that the rest of the team is too often relegated to being Reed's support crew, and in particular he has a really bad handle on Ben and Johnny.
I also have a problem with his storytelling, though not sure exactly how to put my finger on it. I love his ideas and he has a very "Jack and Stan" vision of the Marvel Universe in that it's wildly creative, but I don't think any of those creations are really fleshed out enough to maintain interest? The last issue of the monthly series I got was the one where they discovered the other Atlanteans.
I did just buy the latest annual after flipping though it in the shop though, and I think it's the best FF story I have read in literally years! Everyone got some really good characterisation, and the writer found something new to do with them which still capitalises on the fact that they're first and foremost a family.
One thing in particular that I really liked about the annual was that Johnny seemed more like himself than I have seen him in a really long time. I have resigned myself to the idea that since Millar, Johnny is now the Marvel Universe's Paris Hilton - he's still characterised that way in this annual, but the real altruistic hero that I grew up reading about isn't that far beneath the surface.
If the writing on the monthly series was as good as this annual, I would start buying it again immediately!
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
So the much hyped and talked about "Three" story is here and so far I think it's rather excellent!
Steve Epting's arrival is nothing short of BEAUTY. Every panel is just impressive beyond belief. His Dr. Doom is perhaps the best he's ever looked EVER. His Galactus is grandiose and epic in the way Kirby intended. And the scene with Ben Grimm and Alicia was so subtly moody and full of emotion that I found myself really feeling something for them--something I haven't in a really long time. I used to think it was Avengers, then I knew it was El Cazador and then I was sure it was Captain America but suddenly I'm wondering if Epting's perfect comic is Fantastic Four?
Meanwhile, Hickman's story is just jam-packed with information and subplots that I am eating it up with a spoon. So many things going on:
- the aforementioned Ben Grimm sequences including a chance to really see Johnny and him as the friends they really are and then the moving scene with Alicia.
- Val Richards proving she may just be the most interesting addition to the FF mythos since the Black Panther.
- The 4 cities coming back into play--damn they are interesting!
- Galactus and the Silver Surfer showing up and wanting some answers from Reed.
I love that Hickman very subtly references FF & Marvel history: the floating superhero poker game and Kristof being two excellent examples.
Posted by Jerry on :
Who's going to die?
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Today the finale of “Three” was released in which a member of the FF died—I’ve avoided spoilers and intend to keep doing so until I get to the CBS and buy the comic. I’m actually surprised no one has commented on it yet (please use spoilers). Meanwhile, I finally got around to reading the last issue, which continued to impress the hell out of me regarding the quality Hickman and Epting are bringing to the Fantastic Four.
Epting seems to really be clicking with Hickman and while absolutely maintaining his gorgeous style, he seems to be enhancing Hickman’s approach at restoring a level of grandeur to the FF that just booms on every page. Epting’s Galactus is magnificent, his underwater scenes are incredible and his sequences with Annhilus’ bug army were horrific. He really seems to be channeling Kirby in a sense (not style wise, but layout wise).
I enjoyed the Reed / Surfer / Galactus interaction and how epic and large scale it is. Reed works so well with the most grandiose characters—much more than regular people usually.
The Sue / Namor scenes were great, and I quite liked Namor’s revelation to Sue and how he handled it. It’s an intense plotline that is only a fraction of the story at this point.
And the powerless Ben / Johnny / kids scenes are also great with a lot going on. The kids being in danger is scary but there is a sense of fun to that story (I really love the group of kids Reed is teaching).
Any of the 4 could die it seems, rather than the obvious Death of Reed.
Posted by Ambush Bug on :
Spoiled it for myself...since I do not read the book regularly and do not plan on doing so anytume soon. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out, and how long this death lasts.
Death for major Marvel and DC heroes is really kind of mind numbing at this point. I have to ask why? Why this character, why now? I just hope for the readers of this book, that the stories that come out of this are worth it.
Posted by profh0011 on :
Ever since "The Death Of Superman" (which itself was well done, as least the aftermath was), this sort of thing just doesn't have any meaning...
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Hickman actually lives in the town my LCS is in and uses it as well. I haven't met him and certainly haven't talked to him, but the guys at my lcs say he's a pretty decent guy, and very excited about the storyline.
I hope it works out well, but FF isn't a book I've ever read. And of the ones in it, Ben and Johnny would have been the ones I would want to read about.
Posted by Spellbinder on :
Can someone spoil me as to who died? I won't be picking up my comics for a couple of weeks, probably.
Posted by Chief Lardy on :
(If you do spoil, please put in spoiler box!)
Posted by MLLASH on :
Click Here For A SpoilerI don't read it, but it's HUMAN TORCH who died. Yeah, like that will last. Posted by lil'rhino on :
quote:Originally posted by MLLASH: Click Here For A SpoilerI don't read it, but it's HUMAN TORCH who died. Yeah, like that will last.
I guessed right!!
Posted by Spellbinder on :
Hmmmm... interesting.
To be honest, I doubt that the death will be permanent. Everyone recovers from death eventually these days. Heck, in a year it will turn out that was a missing Skrull!
Posted by ActorLad on :
I totally predicted it, pity I didn't have any money riding on it.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
They hadn't really had a "death" before, had they?
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Spellbinder: Heck, in a year it will turn out that was a missing Skrull!
Click Here For A Spoiler Which would lead to the realization that a Skrull impersonating Johnny unknowingly married a Skrull impersonating Alicia Masters! Posted by Spellbinder on :
quote:Originally posted by rickshaw1: They hadn't really had a "death" before, had they?
Not one that lasted. A couple of years ago, either Ben or Reed "died" and I seem to recall the FF going to Heaven to bring him back or something like that.
Posted by Ambush Bug on :
Reed "died" when Defalco was writing it (I think it was Defalco). Lasted for a little while. Yeah, Ben died and they went to heaven and got him back from Kirby.
Posted by Spellbinder on :
So, it was Johnny's last wish that Spider-Man should take his place on the team? Seriously? Spider-Man? As little sense as this makes to me, I'm just grateful that it wasn't Wolverine.
I'm going to give this a try, but I can honestly see myself dropping FF after a few issues.
Posted by lil'rhino on :
I've really enjoyed the THREE storyline & I actually went out & bought the 1st issue of FF.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Thought it was a solid opening issue to new arc (er, series)! What I'm looking forward to the most is how Franklin and Val will play into the series since Hickman has done the impossible and made the FF kids genuine assets to the franchise by being both interesting and likable.
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
Yeah, he does well with them. I really like the characters he's surrounded Franklin and Val with, too. I only wish there were an Inhuman or two in the mix.
Speaking of which, I'm really looking forward the Four Cities continuation. Didn't I see a solicit that had Click Here For A Spoiler Black Bolt back from the 'dead' on it? Can't wait for that.
Maybe around then we'll get to see Crystal's reaction to Johnny's death. That's the one beat that's gone unexplored.
Spider-man joining makes more sense than him continuing with the Avengers, though I enjoy him there. The most recent addition Click Here For A Spoiler Dr. Doom has me scratching my head. Click Here For A Spoiler What is about von Doom that has young blondes like Val and Layla Miller trusting him, seemingly against all reason? Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
#2-3 of this title prove that Hickman and Epting are nothing short of excellent. I'm loving just about every facet of this comic.
I really enjoyed the idea of a "Symposium on how to finally destroy Reed Richards" (or something like that) with the High Evolutionary, the Thinker, El Diablo and the Wizard invited by Dr. Doom to the FF's HQ. A totally quirky, cool idea!
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
With #4 I'm again blown away by the sheer amount of plot density here, which I just love. Compiled on that is Hickman's ability to really make each character stand out with real characterization.
Not only has Hickman done the impossible (as I stated above) and make Franklin & Val an enjoyable part of the FF series, but Val is actually emerging as the best character in the book! Hickman also has the rare talent to write both Reed and Sue incredibly well. IMO, he's become the quintessential author of Reed Richards.
Still loving the 'Symposium' of villains on how to destroy Reed (which includes Reed, Val and Nathanial Richards). The idea was presented in #3 but in #4 we get to actually see the meeting and its just awesome. The best lines are by Diablo of all people.
I love the complexity and the scope of the whole thing. It's how the Fantastic Four should be--grandiose on a level that borders on the overwhelming (to the characters and readers).
Posted by Lard Lad on :
So it looks like the Torch is returning *already* in November, probably in a renumbered Fantastic Four #600. REALLY, Marvel?
Look, I know Johnny's death was off-panel and unconfirmed, but if they're going to use the event to rename, repurpose and relaunch the book, then shouldn't the effects last somewhat longer than ten friggin' months?
I dunno. That just may be my jumping OFF point at least for buying the FF monthly. I've a feeling Hickman's stuff reads better in trade form anyway.....
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
My prediction: a new Fantastic Four starring in a series continuing the numbering of the old series (re: get a #600 issue), while the FF continues as is. This way Marvel gets the best of both worlds. They used the same trick with Hulk two or three years ago.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
^I was right, natch (or close enough as content of each is still unclear). I work in corporate America after all--I know how these execs want their cake and want to eat it too...and your cake as well.
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
I was really disappointed in the issues depicting Black Bolt's return. The art was horrible, IMO. And I'm really ticked about the short shrift Crystal is getting, once again. Her reaction to Johnny's death is one I've been waiting to read since the death happened. I guess the fact that we *didn't* see her reacting is a point in his resurrection's favor, in a weird way. It's sort of like if I don't see Crys crying over Johnny, then it didn't *really* happen.
Would she have taken Ronan's hand if she'd known what her friends in the FF were going through?
I don't think so. I do like the way that gesture was presented, though. As a reader, am I meant to now believe their marriage has become a 'true' one? Or is she still the political pawn, making the appropriate gestures to serve her ever-demanding royal family? I like the ambiguity.
I also liked how Lockjaw found Black Bolt. But then, I always like the big doggie.
The multiple wives for Blackagon Botlagar creep me out a bit. But I'm meant to be, I think. Once again, the 'In', as in not a part of the succeeding word, in 'Inhuman' becomes vividly apparent. Hopefully, the 'human' that *is* and has always been there will follow shortly thereafter.
I'm wishing that the Inhuman royal family and the Richards (and extended clan) will be fast friends when this war between cities concludes. An Inhuman child or two should move into the Future Foundation... A Royal family member should join some Earth team or other, depending on where Attilan next roosts.
I do appreciate that Hickman is making The Inhumans such a big part of the burgeoning FF story. Clearly, he appreciates their history. Keeping the entire regular cast out of two successive issues was a big risk. That I appreciate, as well. Unfortunatley, I don't think it was a risk that paid off.
I wonder if Black Panther will be showing up soon?
Posted by Lard Lad on :
Who are the stars of this book again?!? I read FF # 7 tonight, and it was the second issue in a row with our cast nowhere to be found. Don't get me wrong: I can see the purpose these stories serve in setting up the big storyline that's about to start, but I couldn't help but think that this story belonged in a separate mini or an oversized special. Hell, it could've been fit into a few pages of flashbacks, far as I'm concerned. Relevant or not, these issues felt like fill-ins, and worse, fill-ins with Reed, Sue, Ben, Franklin, et all no where in sight!
This ain't why I buy your books, Hickman--and it's part of why FF is leaving the Official Lardy Pull List and will now have to fight for its share of Lardy's hard-earneds!
Posted by Future on :
I actually stopped reading FF with #6, the Black Bolt issue which also barely featured the cast. It's a good enough book but F4 is never a must buy for me and neglecting the cast lost me pretty quick. Kind of saddened to hear that the next issue pulls the same stunt, necessary plot set-up or not.
I do plan on jumping back on board with Fantastic Four #600 to see what the division of the titles will be like.
Posted by Legion Tracker on :
The only reason I picked up FF was because of the Inhumans' appearance. (Big Inhumans fan here.) I though it strange that I never saw any of that large list of characters on Page One in the story itself.
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
FF #9-- WAR OF FIVE CITIES isn't knocking it out of the park the way I want it to... it's focusing much more on that bizarre gathering of villains... entertaining, but not at all bringing together the various strands that have been spun since Hickman started writing.
It was great to see Black Bolt, Reed (or was that Nathanial?-- all the Reeds are confusing) and the word friendship in the same panel.
Gorgon, Karnak and Triton in the field-- glad to see Triton was the one who brought in a captive, rather than killing. Medusa, I'm beginning to think, is unhinged. She was getting that gleam of evil in her eye towards the end of her pre-Bolt's return reign. And now she's got that wooden, personality-emptied translator queen facade working. Her casual acceptance of her 'sister-wives' was... discomfort-inducing.
I couldn't help feel a little sorry for Crystal. Of course, they're products of an 'inhuman' culture, so that's misplaced pity.
I wonder if Crystal has been gathering husbands, like Black Bolt and his wives? Ronan, Johnny, Pietro, the real estate guy... (I don't count Sentry).
Anyway, the parts are great here-- Doom is Doom, even as he faces something I don't think he thought he'd ever face-- Valeria and Bently are fun... but the whole just doesn't quite pull together into what I wanted it to. Maybe that's just me.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
I know some posters haven't been enjoying FF as much but I'm still loving it. Sure, we got two whole issues of just the Inhumans. Hickman is as indie as it gets and that's how they roll. I kind of enjoyed the risky story-telling strategy employed there.
With the latest, we're back on target as all the story elements are coming together. And wow, are there a lot! The Four Cities! The Council of Reeds (with the Mole Man!)! The Inhumans! The FF teamed with Dr. Doom, Diablo, The Mad Thinker, The Wizard, The High Evolutionary and AIM! Nathaniel Richards! Plus, the Thing, Sue and Val & Franklin have their own stuff going on. It's like an FF fans dream!
Each character has a unique voice, which I love. More, each character has a motivation that is really grandiose, which fits the FF perfectly.
I'm still loving this series. IMO, it exceeds all FF runs besides Byrne and of course Jack (which cannot be surpassed really).
And that Epting artwork--just WOW. WOW.
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
FF 11: Contains one of those jaw-dropping moments that I, anyway, read comics for. Not quite in the Thunderbolts-revealed-as-Masters-of-Evil or Runaways-are-the-children-of-super-villains class, but close.
If anyone says they saw what happens to two of the characters coming, they're big ol' liars. Who puts things in motion, and who (at least so far) passively condones it is almost as surprising, and possibly disturbing.
Barry Kitson makes a good pinch-hitter for Epting- I wish he could've been the one to pencil the Black Bolt issues.
I'm really looking forward to #12, now. If Hickman can avoid the inevitable anticlimax to this stunning revelation, it'll be one of the best stories I can remember.
Posted by Reboot on :
I don't see what was so jaw-dropping about it. It wasn't spectacularly obvious, true, but they needed to be cleared off the game board and they're Evil Versions Of Our Hero and so doomed to a bad end. It's not like something happened to the "real" versions of the characters.
And Kitson's a BIG step down from Epting. Besides Epting's greater gift for nuance and shading, at least Epting's characters don't spend half their panel time staring straight at the "camera"!
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
Well, it made my jaw drop. Epting is a great artist, true. I appreciate Kitson, as well. The big step down for me is to the one who illustrated the two issues featuring Black Bolt's return in which the FF barely appeared.
It seems like a long time since this book came out... the next installment is one I really want to read, apparently.
*That's* the sign of a comic book that's doing what it's supposed to... at least for me.
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
Wow. FANTASTIC FOUR #600 was worth the big price tag. Newsmaking plot point was *not* a cop out- but a story that made sense when told from both sides of the 'divide'.
Lots of fodder for upcoming stuff, too. Franklin and Leech... Ronan and Crystal... Black Bolt and Medusa...
Apparently, all will be recurring for the near future.
I dunno if it'd all make sense for readers who haven't been keeping track of Hickman's FF(s), but this was an anniversary issue that delivered on its promise, IMO.
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
FF #12 would've benefitted if it'd been scheduled after FANTASTIC FOUR #601, IMO. I felt a big let down in not reading about more of the newsmaking character who returned in #600 (which more and more I'm thinking might be the issue of the year, for me- I can't fathom why noone else is commenting on it.)
Still, this odd assortment of kids (plus Dragon-Man) does make for an appealing cast. I, for one, am looking for this round of Doomcentrism to be over and done with, so the good ol' Doc can come up with another devious plan that can percolate for a few months.
Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Lad: Lots of fodder for upcoming stuff, too. Franklin and Leech... Ronan and Crystal... Black Bolt and Medusa...
I don't read Hickman's mainstream work anymore, so could you please elaborate (with a spoiler box if you feel it's necessary) on Ronan and Crystal? Thanks in advance.
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
Sorry, I missed the question. Are you up on the 'cosmic' events of the last couple of years, FL? I kind of think you are, or were as far as it mattered.
Their panel-time in the FF issues was pretty minimal, thus far. It appears the political marriage has begun to become a real one. Ronan's action since the Inhumans and Reeds, etc have converged on Earth could put that in jeopardy, as we've only seen Crystal's shocked initial reaction to said action.
Hickman mentioned the two Inhuman couples in an interview around the publication of the anniversay issue, as characters to be examined going forward. They haven't been mentioned in any solicits, since. Not that that means much.
Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
Todd, I have been following the DnA cosmic stuff through its ups and downs, and was quite disappointed that the Annihilators ended up with a female Spaceknight instead of Crystal (having said that, the first mini was very good, though the second was not very good) If Crystal is possibly going to get panel time in future issues of Fantastic Four and/or FF then I'll at least wait for the trades. Thanks.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Crystal and Ronan have had a lot of panel time in recent issues with Crystal making a surprising (and welcome IMO) decision about her loyalties.
#600 saw the return of a character no one truly believed was dead. Or at least I never did so I'm not shocked or bothered by the bait and switch. The return has two things so far that stand out: the final page as drawn by Epting making him look more heroic than perhaps he's ever looked before; and the back-up story that was quite good showing where he's been all this time.
Meanwhile FF breaks off into it's own title. I'm glad as things were getting too crowded and complicated. Val has really emerged as a true star and it will be great to see her continue to shine! My one major complaint is I did not enjoy the artwork at all--it kind of took me out of the story.
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
Did I miss an issue? We see Ronan about to follow the Supreme Intelligence's directions to attack the Inhumans, with Crystal making a nominal (it seemed) objection- then nothing until a one-panel depiction of the Supreme Intelligence's big ol' head making sounds of retreat?
What happened to/with the Inhumans and the Kree armies was dealt with in other POVs, but not this particular one. Featuring the fifth FF member ever and one of the team's earliest enemies. Who are now married. We don't even know if Crystal ever knew that Johnny was supposed dead for awhile... does Johnny and co. even know about her marriage?
I'm pretty disappointed in the lack of follow-through, here. I don't expect or even particularly want a Crys/Johnny reunion, but they would *always* care about each other and be in each other's lives. Even if at a distance.
Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
Finally bought, and read, the first TP of FF(collecting issues 1 thru 6). I'm hooked! I just love the kids & the way they're written.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
I also love the way he writes them. They're all great in their own way, with Val as an immediate fave and Franklin being the one you can't help but route for. My other favorite is Bentley who is so enjoyably intent on the path to villainy (though subtly being heroic).
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
Loved Val's thought about Bentley in FF #16. The rebuilt Baxter Building and Foundation made for a good spine around which to build this aftermath sort-of issue. Val's thoughts about the impermanence of Marvel HQs were funny.
As is the thought of Johnny Storm inviting himself to be Spider-man's roommate! Is that going to happen? Even in Spidey books? Am I going to have to start reading those? 'Cause I love Torch and Spidey scenes. They are a believable match as friends and their sparring is something I enjoy reading. They also help each other out- as Spidey does for Johnny during a family sit-down with a Doom loving Valeria.
Speaking of which- is that girl crazy? She gave Doom-- read it yourself. You'll be shaking your head, too.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Recent ASM had a great Spidey / Torch 2-parter! The banter / camaraderie were worth it alone!
Posted by Reboot on :
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Lad: Speaking of which- is that girl crazy? She gave Doom-- read it yourself. You'll be shaking your head, too.
If you're referring to the glove he picked up, they only work in their home universes, remember.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Maybe it's because I'm a new Dad, but I found the Reed / Franklin sequences (and the parallel to the earlier Reed / Nathaniel Richards) to be really moving. Hickman tapped into something there...it wasn't tears streaming down my face, but I was on the verge of being choked up throughout the end of his big saga. Hickman writes the best Reed IMO.
And the Franklin / Leech scene in FF was great too.
Haven't read the latest ish with Val referenced above but I can't help but always feel she knows more than everyone else.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
The latest issue of FF was absolutely terrific! It was hilarious and full of charm--a fantastic buddy story featuring Marvel's best pals, Spidey & Johnny.
The art by Nick Dragota really put it over the top. A reall great, classic style that also has great facial expressions and comedic trappings. He's officially on my radar.
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
Poor Crystal and Ronan. I wish she'd take on Black Bolt. She's just about the only Inhuman who might have a chance beating him.
He and Medusa are *this close* to being villains, in my view. No wonder Black Panther's been enshrined as Reed's best 'non-FF' friend. At one time, Black Bolt might've gotten the nod.
Given how things ended in FF's August issue, wouldn't Crystal joining the new FF team have made more sense?
Hickman's apparently not using her in his mammoth AVENGERS cast (or is dissembling about it), which surprises me. There's obviously much more story for the exquisite elemental, if only someone would actually write it. And her. She gets the cover, and the story's *about* her, but she actually appears in it very little.
Despite that, I thought it was an effective issue with some somewhat surprising positions taken by Reed and Sue. The two of them individually counseling Ronan and Crystal was quite ironic. After all, Reed's fought Ronan several times. And Sue Crystal, at least once, memorably. Less memorable- did they ever really 'make up'? Hmmm.
I'm still burned (ha!) that Johnny and Crystal still haven't even spoken since his death(s) and her marriage.
Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Lad: Given how things ended in FF's August issue, wouldn't Crystal joining the new FF team have made more sense?
Can you please spoil it for me? Thanks in advance.
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Lad: Hickman's apparently not using her in his mammoth AVENGERS cast (or is dissembling about it), which surprises me. There's obviously much more story for the exquisite elemental, if only someone would actually write it. And her. She gets the cover, and the story's *about* her, but she actually appears in it very little.
As a Crystal fan of twenty years standing, all I can do is sulk.
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
Click Here For A Spoiler To accomdate the Supreme Head Thingie's wishes in bringing about a truce between the Kree and the Inhumans, Black Bolt decreed that Ronan go back to Hala with the Kree and Crystal return to Earth with the Inhumans, their marriage dissolved.
I went ahead in put this in spoiler space, though I'm not sure it was really necessary.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
So an interesting and awesome thing has happened in the final year of Hickman's run: after his major, epic arc, he's done a years worth of one off issues and two-parters that have been nothing short of FANTASTIC. Each month, Fantastic Four and FF both have delivered terrific stories that are full of character and heart, showing that in addition to his epic storytelling style he also has a masterful understanding of character.
I think it's also a case of a really good writer becoming better over time and now just being flat out great. His creator-owned work has always been spectacular but even there I've noticed him reaching new heights. It's pretty awesome to watch him grow.
These final issues have spotlighted the various FF kids, the Wizard, the Black Panther, Johnny & Pete, the Thing & Reed, etc. The underlying theme is of course family & friendship, and choosing your own destiny (re: choosing your own family).
I've loved this run. And this last year is probably my favorite part of it.
Posted by Jay Kay on :
So the last issue of F4 came out a week or so ago. Loved it--really tied up a big running thread with Dr. Doom, with one of his best moments in a while.
Click Here For A Spoiler"I was a God in their world. ... I found it...beneath me."
Also, the preview for the first issue of the MN Fantastic Four is out. Some good stuff--you can never go wrong with the team fighting dinosaurs.
Also, a short story for FF focusing on Scott Lang was featured in the Marvel Now Point One issue. Pretty fun story, gives a good idea of what his feelings and motivations will be in this story. And the best part?
Click Here For A SpoilerSpray-painting a mustache on a mural of Doctor Doom in his own castle as the first step in his path of revenge.
Gotta start somewhere, right? Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Much like I did with Thor / JiM, before the Marvel NOW phase started for Fantastic Four (which does look exciting, especially FF), I wanted to first and foremost read the final issues of one of the greatest eras in the history of the franchise, which of course if the Jonathan Hickman era. I know it certainly has some critics here on this board, but I’ll be very clear just how highly I think of it: I think in the history of this comic series there are three important eras: the Kirby / Lee era (which is the truest and ‘real’ Fantastic Four series), the John Byrne era, and now the Jonathan Hickman era. I think Hickman basically saved and reinvented this franchise when dozens of creators had tried and failed before him, and he made it relevant again.
He also did the impossible: he reinstalled the ever-elusive “Spirit of the Series” while making it modern, fresh and original.
How he did this is a conversation to have many times over in the future, but I stand by those words. I loved this run. And I’m going to miss it terribly. Hickman has become a personal favorite writer of mine—certainly in my top five—and I’ll buy anything he does henceforth. And all of the incredible artists he worked with on this run have been terrific too, especially Eaglesham & Epting, and also newcomer Nick Dragotta, whose work on FF has been eye-opening. I’ll be following him closely.
This final year’s worth of issues have in my opinion been the absolute best of the best in the series. Mostly single issue stories, they are chalk full of the magnificent and grandiose ideas that Kirby made the standard of the Fantastic Four, but also chalk full of major character moments again and again. Never, and I mean ever really, have the Four plus Franklin & Val, plus the kids & Nathaniel, plus Doom & a host of others, felt more “real” to me. Hickman made them fully realized in their complexities and I loved it.
Both Val and Franklin have become real favorites of mine for the first time ever.
Since this series is at its heart all about creation, newness and exploration, I fully expect and hope Fraction to carve his own path with his two amazing collaborators (and who can’t get excited about Bagley & Allred?). But I do hope he continues a few major themes: the ever-growing family in that it’s not about bringing it down to the 4 or less which helped kill this series for decades but about growing; the ever-present sense of adventure & exploration where there is no ceiling to the ideas being explored; and I also hope he continues to use the Future Foundation kids. That last one would really mean a lot to me—not just Franklin & Val, but Bentley, the Moloids and the rest. Even if only as supporting characters, they are too good to pass up.
I loved this run. Posted by razsolo on :
What do peeps think about the first couple of issues of the NOW FF titles?
I think the second issues for both kind of dipped in quality a little after a decent start, but am still gonna hang in and see how things turn out.
There are a lot of little things I am not 100% ecstatic about (Medusa expecting to be pampered, Darla even being there, BEN YELLING IN ALL CAPS ALL THE TIME, etc)...but there are a lot of things I really like that I hadn't expected to at all (Artie and Leech not being relegated to the background, the other Foundation kids, Darla whom I quite like as a character even if I do find her presence pointless)...and I do love Shulkie and Medusa as well as the artists on both titles, so I'm happy to hang in here for a while and see what happens once all the introductory stuff is out of the way. Posted by Power Boy on :
I thought issue #2 of FF was better than 1. 1 seemed like a zero issue and we could have jumped right into 2 because of Ant Man's monologue in the first few pages. I also think the Mole Man attack was funny but would have been sweeter in a 1st issue as a homage.
I'm tired of Miss Thing already and hoping she takes off like she wants too.
Looks like FF is about to get interesting with the new arrival.
I still give it four:
even though I liked it much better than 1. There could have been much more tension in the very predictable realization that the original Fantastic Four is missing.
FF is fun but I hope it changes up or accelerates quickly because it seems like predictable Allred.
iZombie peter'd out into a snail's pace conclusion. Allred's amazing art just isn't enough to float the boat for issue after issue.
Posted by Dev - Em on :
Just got the first two issues of each and will be reading them shortly.
Posted by Dev - Em on :
Loving them. Both titles are great. The art in F is a delight, and Bags is solid on F4.
The books tie in together nicely, but seem that reading them seperately would be possible.
Posted by rokk steady on :
I think Allred can keep a book floating for a longer time than PB, probly , but the new arrival is a good sign... I hope he is a new 4th member, but I think they should keep Darla, give her a Ms. thing suit and make her the headmistress for the children of the future foundation. And yeah, not appreciating the medusa pampering thing.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[No]](graemlins/shake.gif)
)
![[Disgusting]](graemlins/puke.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Evil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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. *Especially* when it comes to the FF.
![[Drool]](graemlins/drool.gif)
One of the best runs on any comic EVER!!! I think the whole thing was effin' awesome, even after Sal Buscema took over on art. Hell, even something as ludicrous as Thor Frog just kicked ASS! Man--they just don't DO comics like those Simonson Thor issues any more!
![[LOL]](graemlins/lol.gif)
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
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![[Love]](graemlins/love.gif)
) makes above is very apt. The downside being that many individual issues feel pretty unsatisfying in and of themselves. They don't really stand on their own very well. I'd say that's become more and more the case since about the start of the "four cities" issues. Before that, the stories were more satisfying. Since that began, there have been more and more "wtf" moments a la Grant Morrison, especially all that Nu-Earth stuff. ![[Cheers]](graemlins/cheers.gif)
![[Superman X - Kell-El]](graemlins/SupermanX.gif)