Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Profem?

A lame excuse for Jan being gay?

What was the deal with this story?

TMK liked to turn things a bit upside down. I'm a fan of those stories (even the Pro Fem story, which a lot of people disliked), and I think they did a great job.

There was an earlier story with the "Grandin Gender Reversal Germ" which I haven't read - so maybe they were alluding to, or expanding on that concept.

I didn't find the idea of Pro Fem bizarre or wierd at all - if people go through physical surgery today to change genders, surely there will be a (simpler) drug in the future to accomplish this. I did think it was a bit of a downer that Shvaughn/Sean had to hide the fact, or lie about it to Jan - but that's not unrealistic and - let's face it - it's their business.

Was it a way to make Jan gay without actually doing so, not taking that step with an acutal Legionnaire but only a supporting character? No idea... but ultimately, to me, it was a real love story - although couched in a campy cover - because no matter who or what Shvaughn was, she and Jan loved one another, and stood by one another. It seemed to be left unsaid in later issues whether they continued as friends only or developed a new sexual relationship.

It was interesting (to me anyways) that the very masculine Circe was shown as a young girl in a dress, in her final panel with Dirk, after she shot herself. I don't know exactly what that was saying but I found it sad and charming, she just looked like a happy, innocent girl.

What always bothered me most about that episode was how it destroyed Shvaughn as a character. She (I refuse to acknowledge TMK's "chemical" butchery) was made into a three-decades-long transsexual stalker, who based her entire adult life and career on deliberate lies.

That bit of fanboyish creative abuse is worse than any physical mutilation that was depicted -- and TMK was running amuck with those. Even worse than that which "Bounty" did to Dawnstar, as I see it. (Though that's the only one I'll put as being worse.) Because openly gutting a lifetime's integrity is a far more profound trashing of a character than even tearing off her wings off-"stage."

Lydda?

Lydda's not here right now. She's out getting her beehive restored, something which TMK neglected to do.

"Groupie"?

That's one way of looking at it, but not mine... people take all sorts of paths and make decisions in pursuit of "dreams" or objectives, that, in retrospect, were not wise, honest or even that well thought out. Did Sean have a crush on Jan and become a female to "pursue" him - or was he inclined to be a female in any event? Or was he confused, as an adolescent, about what and who he wanted to be? It was left a bit unresolved, to say the least - we didn't really get any further insight into Sean's thinking.

To me, this is all quite realistic, emotions/motivation-wise - even to the extent that things are left unsaid, confused and/or unresolved. That's what happens a lot.

I know you were horrified and dismayed by what TMK did to Dawnstar - but, there again, I see this as very realistic - in the sense that the legionnaires, in or out of the Legion, were involved in dangerous situations. It's unlikely that they would escape grievous harm. We had a lost arm, a few deaths, a torture pre-TMK - they then added to the list. I would think the legionnaires would be targets for humiliating and hideous attacks by their enemies - which is one aspect of what happened to Dawnstar. Now if they had left it at that, instead of adding the confusing Bounty spirit or whatever it was, it could have been a very moving story, with the loss of her wings and her continuing to fight the good fight.

They never did get that character.....

In principle, I have nothing against the idea of Shvaughn/Sean changing genders, nor does it matter to me in the least if Jan is gay, straight or asexual -- his sexual orientation being the least compelling aspect of his personality. What I DO mind is that TPTB abandoned the Legion to two inexperienced writers who were entirely bereft of creative talent and literary imagination, and permitted them to overturn 30 years of characterization and back-story for the sake of juvenile sensationalism.

The Bierbaum's maltreatment of Shvaughn, Dawnstar, Mon-El, Sun Boy, Garth and other beloved characters was an insult to Legion fandom, and I thank gods that their opus was blown to smithereens by Zero Hour. Now I can once again enjoy Shvaughn as the tough, intelligent and compassionate person I always admired rather than the weepy, whiney, deceitful and co-dependent twit who made my stomach heave. As for Jan, I'd rather see him go insane than subject himself to such a ridiculous and fraudulent relationship.

What annoyed me about that storyline was the fact that the ProFem seemed like such a blatant plot device.

These days, changing one's gender is a fairly involved process, and there are quite a few people doing it. You'd think that if it was even simpler to change gender in the future (though there were a few complications from using ProFem, I think), many more people would be doing it all the time -- just for fun, variety, etc. -- and we would have seen examples of such in the Legion continuity already.

Instead, the Sean/Shvaughn story seemed completely novel and out-of-the-blue.

One such instance, FC, of physical or spiritual mutilation would have been shocking, but could have been reasonable. Constant instances, though, turned the Legion setting into what it had never been: an almost malevolent universe.

As for showing something "moving" about Dawnstar having her wings torn off, I'm afraid you can't really use what they didn't do to justify what they did do. What TMK actually did was have that occur offstage, in the convenient "gap," as a consequence of the double Mordruverse reboot. And they then used its revelation, to borrow Stu's phrase, as a cheap plot device when it suited them: a shock-value moment following a gimmicked-up "battle" with Sade.

If her mutilation had been shown to happen in heroic battle or for high principle -- or Blok's pointless death, or Sun Boy's betrayal, or other character wastage -- it might have had some resonance in the plots, or been honest in evoking the readers' emotions. TMK didn't bother to do that. As others have said, they lacked the skill. Most fanboyish fanficcers do.

[Edit: Not Enough Caffeine Man]

Schvaun/Sean even for the longevity of the character, was still the second stage character actor. This story is the reason they exist. They are fodder to experimentation. Whether the change was made to investigate Jan's sexuality, Jan's spirituality, or Schvauns, is I suppose totally in the mind of the writers (have they published their reasoning) or up to reader speculation which is great. It was to me weird, but within the creative leeway I'm willing to give.

The Dawnstar/Bounty story is different to me. This is a major character. Much like Coz' disfigurement, this one deserved "camera" time. Whether the ultimate result would be character mental adjustment as with Cos or physical reenstatement as with Lightning Lad, I would wish that this story had been played out in the open.

That's what I found strange.

I don't think Sean was transsexual, he was just a confused gay guy in "love" with Jan.

I just don't get how the "I need to change my sex just to have sex with another man" plot line works 1000 years in the future (or today).

What we got in that story only made the issue more confusing.

Lotsa TMK bashing here, but I'm with Fat Cramer.

Tom and Mary were certainly NOT without skill. Read their HECKLER or THUNDER AGENTS work. They gave a buttload of characters distinct personalities in their few LEGIONNAIRES issues. And I thoroughly enjoyed their LEGION issues without Keith Giffen. In fact, I think I liked those issues (LSH #2 39-50) MORE.

As for the story in question-- the profem tale-- I don't really remember super-loving OR super-hating it. I do recall that it surprised me.

I thought the use of ProFem was rather retconniving and unnecessary. If Jan is gay, have him find a male partner/lover, don't tweak Shvaughn out like that. It make him/her look weak and pathetic, and yes, like a stalker or something, as noted above. It was purely done for shock value, and I really didn't care for it.

And why did people think Jan was gay? Basically, because he wore pink and rarely ever had a girlfriend, let alone a steady girl back in the Adventure days! Hmmm, although in high school, I rarely dated and people later told me they thought I might be gay. Wouldn't you know, it turned out I was just painfully shy. Whodathunkit? (Oh, and I didn't wear pink in high school, so that was totally different)...

Ultimately the only interesting part of the story was when Jan chided Sean with a comment like: "What makes you think your gender has anything to do with why I love you?" That was well handled. The fact that it was Shvaughn, was poop.

The whole Sean/Shvaughn thing was a shock to me and I thought the pro-fem thing was kind of...
But it didn't prove that Jan was gay. It proved that gender was unimportant to him. What mattered was a person's soul, not their genetalia. I thought that fit in with Jan's personality perfectly.

On the other hand, by creating Bounty, TMK took a character that I didn't care for at all and made her interesting to me. I liked Bounty much more than I ever did Dawny and I liked it when Dawny made it back to the team. I think, given a little more time to be shown and developed, she would have come through as a stronger, yet humbled and more mature, character. I liked the wings, but their loss didn't rock my world.

Oh, and for the record, I like much of the TMK era. This Sean/Shvaughn thing, the Proty/Garth thing, and the Dawny mutilation were the negatives for sure!!

And the scene where Lydda heads to the nursery where all the Legion-babies are sleeping and dims the lights in order to protect them from the invaders was a wonderful handling of her character that I've never forgotten.

You right about that, Lash. Although this era is my least favorite, that was one of the best uses of Lydda ever.

I loved this story- particularly as it fit with the later #50. However, I've always seen why people who were/are fond of Shvaughn Erin would be pissed off by it.

Still, I think it stands on its own merits. In fact, I think it's the most fully realized depiction of the adult/teenage SW6 Legionnare counterparts. There was the later issue that showed all (or most) of them meeting-- but each pair only got a panel or two. The Ultra Boys and Violets stood out here, but none of them got the attention that the Jans got in this issue.

I think I love this issue mostly for the way young Jan is characterized-- and for the hints about adult Jan... hints I'd been convinced of before I ever encountered any sort of Legion fandom suspicions.

Adult Jan's telling of the 'trommite cub' story to distract Shvaughn while SW6 Jan dealt with the shock of killing several Dominators was beautifully presented, I thought. There's a sadness underlying the dialogue and art that I find almost palpable.

As for Sean/Shvaughn and the profem-- in the text piece at the end, Sean infers that the use of profem (and it's 'opposite' promen) was a sort of underground counter-culture kind of thing popular in a specific group (the Freebie commune of Tupelo!?- started by Matthew Lesko, perhaps:)), in which Sean found himself after leaving home.

The way Sean wrote about Duar, his homeworld, made it seem a bastion of intolerance in the 30th century. At least Sean's immediate family and community were described that way.

I always got the impression that Sean would've taken the profem even if he'd never heard the words 'Element Lad'- in fact, he did start taking it before he could've had any reasonable expectation of meeting Jan Arrah.

Which isn't to say that it still doesn't make Shvaughn stalkerish- but no more so than Night Girl.

I agree that this isn't a perfect continuation of the lady cop featured in the Levitz years- but after all, this was a rebooted Legion before there was an 'official' reboot. Everything from the moment Mon-el punched the Time Trapper on was a whole new continuity. After all, I never read any Adventure stories featuring Kid Quantum or Laurel Gand, did you?

I don't believe *that* Shvaughn Erin would've come from such a sad, demeaning background (and I don't mean the gender-switch) any more than I think that the Levitz Sun Boy would've become such a scum.

TN

I bow before your beautifully stated words as always, Todd!

Thanks for so elequently defending a much-maligned Giffen/Bierbaum tale.

What he said.

I'm sorry, Lash LaRue, but I do have to demur from your use of "maligned" here. That word usually goes beyond evidence that's brought to bear, to suggest dishonest or improper motives on the part of those who make criticisms -- at least, to me.

It's perfectly legitimate to suggest that TMK didn't have the skills to carry out stories based upon 30 years of Legion continuity. (Remember, the after-Mordruverse, before-Zero-Hour stories were asserted to be part of that continuity.) Destruction of what came before, in serial storytelling, is always a far easier narrative task than preservation of or building upon what came before.

TMK may have been adept at constant destruction, but it's quite reasonable to step back further and contend that this injured or ashcanned much of the Legion's legacy, especially as to many character nuances. That's what happened with Shvaughn Erin and ProFem -- or, at least, many of us have been saying this in some manner or another.

To say that making this point ends up "maligning" TMK's work is to suggest -- to me -- that it isn't reasonable to even make such critiques in the first place, or that it's done out of improper motives, or both.

This may be my rhetorical hair-splitting -- often my foible, I admit -- but I don't see how I and others frame this as being any less worthy of discussion than how Todd does such framing above. I wanted to rule this possibility out.

that's your opinion mr Bird, and like arseholes everyone has one.

IMO opinion it was the best era because they trashed the history and somehow made the characters that were becoming parodies more human, vulnerable, believeable and interesting , but hey if you want 2 dimensional teenage fantasties carry on ignoring that era... it's all a moot point now anyway isn't it?

Gawd, I miss character driven plot lines. Has Rokk or Vi EVER been more interesting than when they were in Giffen's hands? No, I didn't think so either....

{ that's your opinion mr Bird, and like arseholes everyone has one. }

You know, S.B., I don't make such content-less swipes against anyone. I bring up some genuine point in response, at least, even if it's only stressing some point of discussion mores. (As it was here.) Why did you even bother to quote what I wrote?

Please call me Grey or Steve, by the way. "Mister," here, is condescending.

{[...] but hey if you want 2 dimensional teenage fantasies carry on ignoring that era ... }

I could fully respond about how I don't at all "ignore" that era -- rather, I know a great deal about it, and I detest it -- but making that distinction appears to be pointless. Whatever you may want here, it's not discussion.