Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes LEGION #4 (Preview)

If I were Cos, I would have taken the opportunity to move the Legion to another planet, leave Earth to its own devices and then count the seconds till the xenophobes realise just how much Earth needs the Legion and begged them to come back. That would have made an infinitely more interesting story than the Legion caving and letting Earth-Man join without anything more than token resistance, and I really don't think that Cos as leader at the time came out looking any better than Shady did.

I also have major issues with Cos shipping Lydda off to the Academy once they'd broken up and then refusing to allow any of her students to apply for membership. Cosmic Boy really didn't come off looking very heroic last series at all unfortunately...

But to address the question about women who love bad men....this isn't some generic guy who did some bad things but showed a good side underneath it somewhere - this is a guy who tortured and killed Tasmia's friends and long-term associates. She can be attracted to someone like that without there being any kind of lead-up to it, but she can't also be a hero. The two are mutually incompatible. Her gender doesn't enter into it, I would have exactly the same reaction if Sun Boy hooked up with the Emerald Empress.

I agree on all points, Raz. The Legionnaires are supposed to be heroes, and what Shady did was anything but heroic, regardless of her gender.

Somehow, through all this Shady/Earth Man stuff, it is my impression that the emphasis of the writing was to shake up the character of Mon-El. Knowing that in the New 52 that both Superboy and Supergirl would not be a part of the Legion (at least for a while), I suspect there was a conscious effort to re-establish Mon-El as a main character in the title. Mr. Levitz used the Green Lantern/Sodam Yat thread and Earth-Man thread to bring up some character-advancing adversity for Mon-El and at the same time tie up a few loose ends. The readers voting for Mon-El as Legion Leader was an additional, if unexpected, opportunity. Unfortunately, Shady came out as a big casualty of this, character-wise. Earth-Man did as well, but I don't think many people cared about that.

The original effort to break-up a "given" couple such as Mon-El and Shady was certainly flawed, but opened up a ton of story possibilities for these characters. I expect there will be a gradual re-get-together for the two that we the readers will witness in the coming months.

Which makes it have shades of 'we have to do something to Lois / Mary-Jane / Alexandra DeWitt to make Superman / Spider-Man / Kyle Rayner more interesting / relatable / etc.'

I'm not a huge fan of spouses or partners or children being put through the wringer to advance someone else's story...

Unless it's Terry Long being driven off a cliff to advance Wonder Girls story. In that case, it's all good!

And yet, from Paul's reaction to Mon-El being voted in as leader, it seems more likely that Mon-El was going to be written out, to go off and be a Green Lantern, and allow for more focus on other characters. (Which might have had it's own pros and cons, or even led to a 31st century Green Lantern spin-off, focussing on Mon-El establishing a new Corps!)

Paul's reaction definitely wasn't 'oh, what a great opportunity to advance my plans for Mon-El!' It was more 'well, gotta throw out all these ideas...'

To maintain any kind of credibility, a character has to have believable reasons for doing what he or she does. Those reasons have to be consistent with that character's personality. Tasmia's actions over the past year are not consistent with the character as she has been established over the decades. If it were a real person we would have to assume their was some sort of outside influence at work such as a brain aneurism or something of that nature to effect such a dramatic personality change. To simply shrug it off and say she made a bad decision is to write off any credibility the character may have had.

Don't insult me by asking me to believe that Tasmia Mallor's self-esteem is so low that she would sleep with someone who not only tortured and/or maimed friends that she had known and worked alongside for years, but also had made it clear that he considered her a member of an inferior species.

It. Just. Doesn't. Wash.

For that matter, Neidrich sleeping with a member of what he considers an inferior race smacks of the white slave master of the 1800s taking one of his female slaves to bed (which happened a lot, unfortunately). Can anyone say that practice was anything but degrading for the women involved?

[snip]

It's likely that Sun Boy/Empress would have played out as "seduction" or something where the dudes writing the story could preserve the idea that he wasn't really responsible for the "betrayal." Ergo, he wouldn't have to devise any explanation for his behavior apart from, perhaps, OMG! The Eye made me do it!!

Not to mention that Sun Boy isn't a character likely to be largely defined by his relationships with women. Yeah, we know he's a womanizer but the women themselves are not what he lives for, or through. Unlike most female characters, who we all mostly see defined by/through their relationships with men.

Also, I don't think people would be calling Dirk a "skank," or similar, as I've seen all too often happening to Shady.

It's great that you're an egalitarian, but I'm sorry to say that in my experience most writers, artists, and fans aren't. And it really sticks in my craw, frankly. If editors and creators don't care how double standards tend to play out in these episodes, they bloody well should learn to care.

Sadly, I agree with all of this.

This kind of calls to mind over at Marvel where Cyclops left his first wife and son the instant his dead girlfriend turned up alive again, and rather than have him actually face up to the slimy thing that he'd done they had Madeline turn psychotic and evil so it kind of retroactively supported that he'd done the right thing all along....

Then after finally marrying Jean, he up and dumps her for Emma Frost of all people for no particular reason. Emma at least has spent the past bunch of years slowly rehabilitating herself from her previous position of villainy, but it doesn't change the fact that she was at one point one of the X-Men's worst enemies, and she was partially responsible for Phoenix becoming Dark Phoenix. There are definitely at least superficial similarities to the Shady/Mon-El/Earth-Man thing...I wonder whether Cyclops would still be seen as one of the greatest mutant heroes on Marvel Earth if he'd done all this as a woman?

I think it's equally scuzzy behaviour on both Scott and Shady's parts, but I think my main problem with Shady's behaviour is that this is an aberration for her. I don't mind seeing Scott as being a womanising douchebag because he's been that way so long that it's part of his character now. It doesn't make him a great hero in my mind, but it is an interesting flaw for a character to have.

I don't like seeing Shadow Lass be that person because she was the one person who stood by Mon-El up to and after his death. Even all through LO3W she had stood by him through everything, and never showed that any of it was reluctant or resentful...then the last series starts and suddenly out of nowhere they have broken up off-panel and within issues she is with the guy who tried to kill herself and her teammates. It doesn't ring true to her character as previously established, and as the Hermit mentioned, it draws out a whole lot of uncomfortable and really racist undertones that I don't think Paul thought through beyond the initial shock factor at all.

I can totally see where you're coming from though cleome, and I agree....it's sad that the reason a lot of people won't like this development is because 'it makes Shady look like a ho' and not because it was legitimately just a bad development for all characters involved.

^ word. The reason I personally find this upsetting is because of the depths of Shady's devotion to Mon-El in the Preboot. Heck, she was really the stronger of the two, being Mon's anchor when he went nuts after his anti-lead serum was failing.

I totally agree with the points brought up about Shady being female, and how her sex should not factor into how we view her. To be honest, I think most people here would react the same way if, say, Cosmic Boy were in a similar situation.

Razsolo helps prove my point here I also disapproved of Cos shipping Lydda off to the Academy because they broke up!

Anyway, I think the Legion women are among the female characters in superhero comics who are least defined by their men. Saturn Girl, Dream Girl, Jeckie as Sensor Girl all come to mind.

That's actually a pleasantly common feature of Legion relationships.

Garth has fallen apart under the pressure of leadership (and parenthood, possibly), while Imra has remained the strong one.

Brin went through his addiction, while Ayla stood strong for him, and when they split up, she was the one who made that call.

Lydda and Rokk's breakup very much seems to have to do with *his* issues (although Paul seems to be flirting with Rokk's issues stemming from a long ago mindwipe, which will just destroy the point I'm making...), and not hers.

At this very moment, Nura is playing nursemaid to a wounded Thom, and she's always been the more dynamic and take-charge of the two. (And both the smarter of the two, and the one most likely to take charge of a situation.)

While I've never been a huge fan of how darn fast a female Legionnaire seems to get paired off with a male Legionnaire, while some male Legionnaires (Cham, Dirk, Gim) can go decades without a date, let alone being paired off, I do appreciate that so many Legion scribes have seen fit to not relegate the Legion ladies to 'so-and-so's girlfriend status,' or, as an X-Men writer once said of the original plans for Jean Grey (before Shooter mandated that she had to die for killing eleventy billion brocoli people), 'is depowered and becomes Scott's wife, about as important to the story as the left rear tire of the Blackbird.'

It's refreshing that most the Legion ladies are not defined by their relationships, or, worse, sidelined by them. (Well, Lu was sidelined, but only because it was a two-fer, getting rid of Chuck and Lu at the same time, in an attempted de-sillification of the team, I suppose.)

Dawnstar's the big exception. Finding a storyline about her that isn't all cluttered up with rehashed stuff about her big star-crossed forbidden love with Wildfire is like searching for a needle in a haystack. The both of them I think would be hugely improved by a trial separation...

If Paul had decided to break them up instead, I would have been all 'YES!'

And that leaves me wondering what would happen if Earth-Man touched Wildfire's containment suit and attempted to absorb his powers...

Probably an Earth (Man) shattering kaboom.

Contrary to the implication that out-of-character affairs are only explained away when the main character is male, we have seen a situation where it was explained away even though the main character is female: Dream Girl and Atmos.

Of course, this leads to a catch-22. Right now we're saying it's anti-female to have a male protagonist mind-controlled or seduced by the woman (because it means the woman is to blame, not the man), but you could just as well say it's anti-female to have the female protagonist mind-controlled or seduced by the man (using some sort of reasoning like "it shows the woman as weak and vulnerable to influence"). It doesn't matter which way it goes, or what the writers do.

I read #4 at the weekend and all that has stuck with me is how little some of the girls wear. Alya + Vi need leggings while Nura + Tasmia need to get some clothes on. Seriously, Tasmia wears some string + a couple of handkerchiefs. Not a good look.

While it is true that believable reasons for Tasmia's behavior have not been established, it does not mean that it is impossible.

If I were hired to write the Legion out of this mess, I would observe that (1) Tasmia is not human, and (2) Talokan society is not a human society.

Tasmia's family are the hereditary "planetary champions" of Talok VIII. Their "romantic" inclinations are not based on human "love" or "loyalty". Rather, they are based on an evaluation of what a mate might be able to contribute to the Mallor gene-pool. This response is not a cold, intellectual calculation, but an emotional- although alien- response.

When Daxamite and Talokan DNA proved incompatible- as proven by Tasmia's inability to conceive with Lar- she abandoned him. When "Mon-El" was defeated by "Earth-Man", the victor became irrestistably attractive.

Kirt and Tasmia were mutually exploiting one another- he was taking the prerogatives he felt he deserved as the master race, she was trying to maintain her family's own racial mastery.

This could explain the seemingly unlikely pairing of Shadow Lad and Lady Memory, as well.

Not that I liked the "Earth-Man" arc. I would have preferred it end with Double-Header's four parents kidnapping Kirt, stripping him of his powers, and locking him up in solitary confinement on Janus for life.

I've thought for quite a while now that Levitz's method of storymaking is to use snippets of ideas, or something he finds in research, or even a particular line of dialogue he likes, and then work to build stories around them.

Just today I read Legion: Secret Origins #3. In the very last panel, when we should get the cliff-hanger or the surprise revelation, all we get is Brainy explaining how he used an ancient battle technique. It felt like all of Brainy's storyline in this issue was just a build-up to that, so Levitz could include this quaint piece of information he found. The story's action itself was rather mediocre, and I found myself thinking, "So what? Who cares?"

These "ideas" become the foundation of his stories, and the foundational story of the Legion and its members gets lost. Large unexplained or enexplored gaps in the big story keep appearing. There's Harmonia Li...still an uninteresting mystery. Shady's relationships with both Mon-El and Earth-Man. Cos & Lydda. Dream Girl's sudden and barely-told trip to rescue Star Boy from the 21st century which, coincidentally, was "just in time" for Harmonia Li to need him. No one even mentioning the Lost Legionnaires.

I'd much rather know about these things than what Paul is telling us.

It seemed to me that that was just a coda to the story and it wasn't supposed to have a cliffhanger at all.

Paul's recent use of Dyogene ( Diogenes, and his lamp, searching for an honest man ) and Panoptes ( Argus Panoptes, hundred-eyed giant and watchman ) tends to support that theory.

There may have been some Buddhist name-droppage during the recent Titan-'splosion and Saturn Queen-rampagening, but it went over my head, if so.

I don't believe that Tasmia has LOW self esteem, although I also don't think that the retroboot/Nuboot Tasmia has or had, anywhere near the inflated egos of the reboot Umbra or the 3boot version.
THIS Tasmia hasn't been trained as a warrior from birth, nor did she initially know about the shadow Cave.

She was raised as an orphan by an old uncle and she & Grev were 'called' or just stumbled upon the cave as young teenagers.
She might be the champion of Talok but she doesn't have the deep indoctrination or ego that the others displayed.

And very unlike any champions we've seen in the past and in other versions, she's had Grev with her since the beginning, two Cave veted champions.

In the original dotLEGION, we found out that Talokians can't be cloned, so maybe there is a biological issue with them producing mixed DNA offspring, as well.
And we know that Lar in the retroboot, fathered a half human child in the 21st century.

I've often thought that her Mallor reproductive imparative was a Shadow Cave inducement, rather than biologically triggered, especially in the original version.

Perhaps, like The Sanctuary heroine, Magnus, the Cave holds fertilized eggs within the body until Tasmia, or the Shadows, decide it's appropriate to gestate.
The Shadows may want a fairly wide choice at the appropriate time, too.

Interesting thoughts, guys.
Thanks.

I don't think the first two sentences are even true. In real life, people often do things that aren't consistent with their history of past behavior.

Honestly, I really can't defend Shady sleeping with Kirt, but I think it's also somewhat insulting to claim that she's not responsible for her own decisions.

I think what's insulting is the assumption that if a character does something unexpected, then it must be because of mind control. There ought to be a basic presumption that people are responsible for their own choices, unless there's evidence to the contrary. It's offensive to assume that people are not able to make their own decisions, and it smacks of sexism because it's typically female characters who are subjected to this sort of assumption.

As another equally annoying example which occurred in-story, in Avengers Academy #21, I think, Jocasta was vehemently arguing with some of the male characters, and one of them suggested that she might be under mind control.

On the one hand, I agree. I do stuff that's wildly out-of-character (for the person I like to think that I am) all the time.

And yet, the difference between the real world and fiction is that fiction is supposed to make sense.

Shady isn't a real person, who might get a wild hare up her thong to study Kaballah or backpack across Europe or cut off all of her hair and donate it to kids undergoing chemotherapy.

She's a fictional character, and her choices reflect on the choices made by the writer for her, so, if they 'make her look bad,' it's not that imaginary-Shady did something bad, it's that the writer *deliberately wrote her that way.*

I don't blame Imra for sleeping with and / or mindwiping Rokk (this boot) or Jo (Shooterboot) because it wasn't Imra who made those choices. It was Paul Levitz and Jim Shooter, respectively, and if I'm going to be disappointed with Imra's characterization because of those events, I'm going to be disappointed with the writer, who should have a compelling narrative reason to 'go there,' and, thus far, apparently, has not.

I agree with you, Set.
The 'compelling narrative reason to 'go there'', was pretty much bungled.

And it wouldn't have taken much to keep the development from coming out of the blue, either.
The break-up part, anyway.

Tasmia considering a thug, torturer and murderer to be a great warrior, would have taken a whole lot of work, imo.

There are always anticeedents for behavior, I've been taught.
We didn't see any, so we keep trying to come up with a plausible explanation.

I don't think that is insulting, either to the character or to females in general.
On our part, anyway.

The writer is another thing.

I said it was a catch-22, but it was only theoretical until you came and actually did it--after I warned people about it....

The original complaint here was 1) the claim that if Sun Boy was the one having the affair the writers would blame the woman in some way that makes him not really responsible, and 2) an actual example with Scott Summers, where the woman was indeed blamed in order to make him not really responsible.

The Dream Girl/Atmos example is the opposite sex from that. But you're still calling it sexist.

That's a real catch-22: if it's not the man's fault and the woman is responsible, it's sexist against women. If it's not the woman's fault and the man is responsible, it's still sexist against women. No matter which character is on which side, you can always claim it's sexist against women!

You can't have it both ways.

I don't necessarily agree, but I feel that this discussion is becoming excessively nitpicky and unproductive, so I'll concede that you have a point.