Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Supergirl and the Legion of Super-Heroes #32 (Spoilers)

oh wait, make no mistake, that's us too! We just relish our inability to accept change (without a fight). We don't see it as a bad thing, to not accept change. In fact, we hold a yearly competition on who can not accept change the most.

These three-booters think they're all that but see them get all defensive when the smart crowd gets hopeful for a return to the "original" legion. See, that reaction by the three-booters is an inability to accept change, even when it's change to what was before. We will educate them to accept their unwillingness to change, embrace it, and start a talk show about it.

Viva la antécédent!

relish with us, resistance to change!!!

Oh and, if someone hadn't "caught" that off expression and mentioned it, you'd have lost respect for us. You'd be saying to yourself, "heh, got THAT one by them, those losers."

But see, it just goes to show, we're paying attention!

Oh and since that scene has been brought up, hopefully you consider it worthwhile to discuss why that scene did or didn't work as well as intended.


Dennis, armed with your input that the expression was meant to represent Sun Boy's response to Mekt's general snottiness, I went back and read the page. My first thought was that it didn't work because Mekt isn't getting snotting until the following panel. Then I backed up a page and saw that Mekt was getting snotting the panel previous but that happened to be two pages of ads ago. Eh, sometimes that's enough to throw off the continuity of a story, particularly on first read. That's why we have these message boards, to disect and critique and point out things other readers might have missed. It adds to the total experience so even though some of the quickly written message board comments come off, eh, stupid, as a group, we get there.


Now about that cover. I think you drew Supergirl's bra size one size too small. Just something else comic book message boarders are expert at.

heh, someone took us seriously. Has that ever happened before?

Nothing would please me more than if you guys were to try to do as much different stuff with the Legion as possible. For too long, the Legion franchise has been plagued with the notion that the way to do it right is to go back to what everybody loved about them in 1966, and I don't care if I never pick up another comic book like that. Quality is the most important thing, of course, but good-different is a lot better than good-same, and I'll take bad-different over bad-same too.

Dennis, I haven't made it to the CBS yet, maybe THIS weekend, but I look forward to seeing your work! And you are a scholar and a gentleman for participating so wholeheartedly in our humble forum of change-averse continuity-nit-pickin' shut-ins.

<Yes, I'm kissing a$$ with the new creative team. Can't hurt, right?>

I'm old enough to remember when Jim Sherman started drawing the Legion in the 1970s, after Cockrum and Grell had established a new visual vocabulary for the Legion. My first reaction was "ewww," but it quickly grew on me. Good art, good interpretation are what matter.

"But see, it just goes to show, we're paying attention!

Oh and since that scene has been brought up, hopefully you consider it worthwhile to discuss why that scene did or didn't work as well as intended."

You know, I totally hadn't considered the ads. Looking back over it,with that in mind, I have to say in my own defense, it works BETTER than I think it's given credit for. In retrospect, sticking out the tongue more or even making un Boy give Mekt the ol' antler ears may have been more effective. Joe Quesada used to tell me that sometimes...just sometimes...you have to hit people over the head.

"hitting people over the head"

I'm a teacher and it's the same. A spur of the moment decision. Don't want to talk below the students but want them to get the picture. A 90% is a good grade but who wants an airplane that stays in the air 90% of the time? The way towards perfection is reflection and that's all that's going on. It must seem unfair, generally unskilled artists/writers commenting on the work of professionals. That's what I tell my students anyhow, when they complain. Lol.


Poorly played IMO.

Serial comics have always been plauged by the duel between the need to have the story end where it begins and the need to change in order to stay fresh and connect to current audiences. Now add to the mix that comic book fans are reading comics into their thirties, forties and now fifties, while relatively few new readers are coming on board and you have a recipe for wat is, in my opinion, comics main ailment right now: the tension between fan's maturing and immature tastes.

Well that is why we have Vertigo.

And I agree about hitting people over the head. I like to get hit on the head.

LOL! That's exactly how I feel too! Why does THAT origin need to be retold ad nauseum yet nearly all the others are lucky if they get told even once per 'boot!

Mr Calero - I dropped this book long before you came on board so I haven't had the chance to check out any of your work unfortunately - but I wanted to say 'Thanks very much' for coming and engaging with us Legion fans.

And thanks also for the enlightening posts. It's very easy sometimes for comic fans to forget that most artists are putting their all into making their books the best they can be. And we should be respectful of that effort even if it's not to our tastes.

Gah! I've been dying to get on-line to say how much I enjoyed this issue. The art, the story, and the dialogue rocked. But if I had to pick one good thing above the others it was the art. So, Mr. Calero, you in particular rocked, sir!

Earlier contrary opinions about facial expressions notwithstanding, I personally feel that the dead-on accurate expressions made the issue. In my limited experience, some comic book artists can't draw facial expressions well. My friends in animation say that this is probably because only college animation programs tend to have chapters on facial expressions in their text books. So, I guess my question is: have you had such formal training, or are you self-taught in the intricacies of drawing facial expressions that convey exact feelings?

Oh, yes, about that panel where Sun Boy makes a weird face. I loved it, and totally understood that it was meant to convey mockery--after thinking about it for a few seconds. My first thought, however, was that you were trying to pull a "Jeffery Moy" (y'know, like when he ocassionally drew Legionairres sticking their tongues out; actually, I think it would be kind of funny if you were to do this ocassionally in the future, but then again, I'm a bit eccentric).

Speaking of the future, I'm dying to see if that was Chuck Taine we saw in the last issue. And as a previous poster observed, it really is incredible what one well drawn and scripted issue can do to salvage a book. So, please, keep up the good work all of you new behind-the-scenes Legion people. Cheers!

Star Boy kicked some major nass for me this issue. I mean, I dug Tenz being there and all but Thom's whole... presence really got me. I loved... everything about him. From taking insults in stride to threatening Brainy-- I dig him, period.

Overall, I enjoyed the art, the dialogue and the plot. I thought the style lent itself nicely to the creepy feel of this big, foreboding underground structure that's suspiciously empty. The whole thing was neat and I'm rather pleased that it's a done-in-two tale. I feel like TPBs often unnecessarily stretch things out, so... yeah. Happy am I.

OK, let me be the first to admit that I'm sometimes a little... harsh, with my criticisms. When it comes to commenting on comics I don't often sit on the fence (since comics that don't really bother me either way I don't usually comment on) so I'm either a bit gushing or a bit vicious. Let's just say I'm a little hyper-critical...

Anyway, I did pick on that one expression but to be fair that was just the one big area of the art that I found most obviously problematic. I have problems with some of the other pages as well (especially the fight scene) but also really like some of the other pages (like I said, the pages of Tenzil being tricked and trapped are lovely). I don't think the art in the whole issue is a failure and much of what I don't like about it is down to personal taste not technical ability.

Nor are my problems with the art to do with change. In the modern comics book industry change is about the only thing that's constant. It's also a good thing. When you're dealing with characters that have been continually published for decades if nothing ever changed then they'd stagnate. I think there is a line where change becomes change just for the sake of mixing things up or because someone didn't like what was going on before but that's not an issue with SLoSH at the moment. The story is one that is continuing from where WaK left off. There hasn't been a wholesale dumping of all the stuff they had going. For some reason though I'm just not enjoying the writing, or as I say, the art for the last couple of issues. It's not hideous, it's just not been something that I've really enjoyed reading. To be honest it's hard for me to say why exactly I've not been enjoying it. Like I said before, I'm just finding it oddly unengaging. I have ranted elsewhere about the state of Wonder Woman at the moment and there I have very definate thoughts about why i'm not enjoying the title and where it's failings are. With SLoSH, both in terms of writing and art, I'm not so sure. It's a very fluffy criticism of the book I know, and hardly a constructive one, but it's how I feel at the moment.

Actually, second to my first response, I'd just want to say that on this point I actually agree with you one hundred per cent. As a jobbing comics artist myself (small press only so far but I'm learning my trade) I know from experience that art that one person adores is art that another person can't stand. In an extreme example there have been panels (or even whole pages) that I've drawn that I look back on and absolutely detest because I think they're a mess and they turn out to be the favourite pieces of readers. Tastes differet from person to person and if all art was a homogenised mass then it'd become unbelievably dull. There was a period a few years back where art in both DC and Marvel mainstream books was all starting to look the same. There was no variety or life to a lot of it. That's going again now and we're getting all types of art on big name books. Some of it I hate and other people love, and some of it I love and other people hate. There's no accounting for tastes, but nor should there be.

I think it's fair to say though that from the responses here on Legion World you have actually acheived what you set out to do. While I'm not alone in having criticisms of the art the responses have been mostly very positive. At the end of the day your art has got people talking about it. So often you see criticism of comics that boils down to 'the art was OK' without any real response to it either way and that's just dull. I guess it's worth pointing out that when Olivier Coipel started on LSH an awful lot of people hated his art. I loved it right from the get go, and as time went on a lot of people who hated it at first came to love it as well. People change, art styles develop, artists get to know the characters and click into place (I think that's true of Coipel with the Legion and Leonard Kirk on Supergirl for example, who went from being a good Supergirl artist to being a brilliant Supergirl artist over his run on the title). My opinions may change over time, and I hope they do actually. Change needs to happen, but that's true of us as readers as much as it is of the comics themselves.

But, ... but fellas --
I thought you gave me this lightning rod so I could help resurrect Dave Cockrum.

Waitaminnit! Why am I the only one holding a lightning rod?

Nits aside -- I certainly have some, even some that, believe it or not, haven't been raised here -- I love the direction this issue implies the Legion is being taken. I wish the ride were longer than 6 issues.

Agreed 100%. We had two fan faves on it and not many people were digging it.(i loved Barry's art though).

Suddenly two new guys and wow! Breath of fresh air and all of that.

Yesterday, I went to my CBS to buy another copy (I always get two copies) but the issue was sold out. It's a very rare occurrence, and I believe it was Dennis' artwork that made the difference.

Complain all you want about the zillionth retelling of the lightning origin, but I can't wait to see where Tony and Dennis are going with Mekt's story. I never tire of Mekt.

That question is a load of crap...

Hey! I'm just sayin'!

What a great way of putting it. I'm withholding judgment until the arc is over. To do otherwise is premature criticism. It's hard to decide if an overall direction or story is good when I've only read the first chapter or so. With that in mind, I can usually tell by the 3rd whether I want to stay invested as a reader until the end, or whether I just read it because I bought it and I'm an anal retentive collector type who has to know because he has to know, not because it's good.

The art was servicable, and it told the story. Which is all I ever ask. Pretty pictures that don't tell a story, are pinups and essentially worthless in graphic storytelling, IMHO at any rate. At least you managed to make the different characters look different facially, rather than Kitson, <strike>who draws faces that resemble each other to the point of making me wonder about in-breeding...</strike>

I am looking forward to the next issue. Keep up the solid work.

I personally loved the focus on Winath and lightning stories. They nailed the whole Children of the Corn thing mixed with the lightning stuff and Validus.

For me, this more than anything is why the panel did not seem to fit. I could see any of the last boot's legionnaires making such a face, but now I could only see it coming from maybe Invisible Kid or Light Lass. For Sun Boy, it just seems off--not something that someone who went off to lead a group of rogues would let himself do. That said, now there's precedent, so any one of the legionnaires could go around making faces all the time.

" For Sun Boy, it just seems off--not something that someone who went off to lead a group of rogues would let himself do."

Ok, well that you have to take up with Tony because it's his script and I believe it was something he asked for. But even beyond that, what SUnboy was like or not like before, you have to give Tony the freedom to make the character grow.

“My opinions may change over time, and I hope they do actually. Change needs to happen, but that's true of us as readers as much as it is of the comics themselves.”

Your entire point is well put. I do hope that my work is of the kind that grows on you. I mean, I try to remember that this is DRAWING first and foremost. I think the term “Comic Book Artist” is incredibly limiting and a lot of guys get into the business with no awareness of art other than the comics they read when they were 13. And if we don’t bring in influences from “mainstream” illustration, animation and fine art, we’re just going to get the same thing over and over.

I don’t claim that the way I draw is the way everyone should draw or the way everything should look.

From Bevis:
“It's a very fluffy criticism of the book I know, and hardly a constructive one, but it's how I feel at the moment.”

Well, it’s clear what your feelings are, even if you don’t know why. If I was you CBS owner, and you told me this, I’d probably tell you to give it one more issue to see if you adjust to the temperature change.

“Gah! I've been dying to get on-line to say how much I enjoyed this issue. The art, the story, and the dialogue rocked. But if I had to pick one good thing above the others it was the art. So, Mr. Calero, you in particular rocked, sir!”

Thanks man! To this end, my favorite moment in BatB’s Legion issue was when Invisi-Kid was haking Batman’s hand like a big fanboy. That’s what hits me when I read books and what I try to provide when I draw mine.

I finally got it yesterday... haven't read it yet, but wanna say as awesome as the cover looks online, NOTHING compares to holding in your very own hands! Can't wait to see Dennis' Tenzil-take!

A lot of art does grow on me. Initially I really wasn't keen on the art of Mike Mignola but as time has gone I've come to love it. Which is why even though I may make a snap judgement about art on one particular issue of a comic I tend not to assume that the same artist is always going to ellicit the same response. Sometimes they do, but I give them the benefit of the doubt if it's a bad respon se. Or at least I hope I do...

The point about comic art not *just* bieng comic art is a good one though. I've been asked in the past where my own influences come from and when I've said things like Pre-Rapphellites, Beryl Cook, The Moomins or whatever the response has been 'no, what comics influenced your art?' which puzzles me since I didn't get into comics until well after I had been drawing for years. We do have a tendency to judge comics art just as comic art though and not look at the broader spectrum. That said a comic can be made up of a series of beautifully posed, beautifully painted individual panels that together have no life and no soul to them and don't really work as a story telling medium. But, yeah, comics art is much more than just pictures for the words to sit on.

Oh I will. Like I say, a book or art has to be *really* bad for me not to give it another go, and this issue of SLoSH underwhelmed me rather than was bad. I'm a big Wonder Woman fan and have been buying the title every month for longer than I care to admit. If I can put up with some of the things that have been published there then an issue of a comic that I also enjoy lots that just didn't grab me in the way I would like it to isn't going to put me off buying the next issue one jot. And you never know, the second part of the story might make me like the first part more and appreciate the thing better as a whole than as two parts (it's happened fairly often before actually).

Though it is nice when the art is accessible, something that doesn't stretch the visual learning curve too much. After 50 years, is it too much to ask to get one just one, stick-figure Legion?