Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes So exactly HOW bad is the Legion right now?

Or to be fair, if you're digging it...how good is it?

In the context of being a longtime Legion fan, I rank it as quite possibly the worst ever right now, between what I felt was just a train wreck in Legion Lost Vol. 2 (so much so that I dropped it before issue 10) and the totally forgettable at best New 52 LSH main title (volume upteenth?)relaunch that I'm buying solely out of loyalty and the hope that Giffen can revive it when he comes aboard.

At this point, I think the last year-plus of Legion stories is worse than.....

1) What is generally considered the low point of the reboot/post-Zero Hour Legion--from "Team 20" to the anomaly to Bizarro legion before DnA came aboard.

2) The worst of the "Eat it Grandpa" Threeboot including the infamous Issue 50.

3) Most of the era between Levitz's first two runs.

4) "Legion on the Run"


Those were my bottom four prior to the current era. I'd now put the "New 52" era to this point above (below?) all thise, IMO.

Please understand, I don't presume to speak for everybody and know that my opinion is my own. I've seen enough to know, however, that many do share my opinion to some degree.

So...in context...how bad (or good) is the Legion right now compared to previous eras in your opinion?

I'd put it above your 4 worst eras (which I definitely agree with).

It's hard to pin down why I feel a lack of enthusiasm. Part of it is so fewer pages than the last Levitz run; there's just not much room for multiple plots and character development. There are a lot of unanswered questions which could benefit from a line or two of text: What's Tasmia doing? Does Jan think of Shvaughn Erin? We've gotten some glimpses of the off-panel characters like Gim and Mysa, but it just seems like a lot of the gang is missing.

A lot of panel time has been devoted to the new kids (and Harmonia) and, while they're interesting enough, I feel it's to the detriment of the many established characters. Probably too much Brainy as well; although I like him, he is taking up a lot of space (and is more of a jerk than he used to be).

Probably my favourite issue of the series so far was the day in the life one, with a single page devoted to one or two characters.

I'm feeling disappointed because of the lack of scale.

All the other Legion runs were kind of gigantic in the sense of the supporting and background casts.

I would agree that Legion Lost was certainly not very good but the main title has certainly been better than the four periods you mention ( especially as I started reading the Legion during the between Levitz era so some of my favourite stories are there and, with the exception of Bedards run and the final issue I enjoyed the Threeboot).

That's not to say its been great yet as it hasn't. The first year or so the book, with a few exceptions, did not get much above average but since the last few issues of the Dominator story I believe it has been on an upward surge and I am looking forward to the Fatal Five story as the build, thus far, has been very good.

Whether its Giffens impending return or Levitz just needing some time to get back into the swing of things I am guardedly confident of the future of the book.

I agree with Stuorstew, I'm enjoying the current run, though like Cramer said the lack of pages is probably hampering some the space needed to progress the smaller character moments. I'm possibly in a minority but I like all the new members so far - even Comet Queen! It would be great to see the Lost crew back quite quickly, even though none of them were particularly favourites of mine I've missed some of their interactions - TWs clumsiness, Wildfires hotheadedness (is that a real word?), Dawny's aloofness etc.

The art, overall has been outstanding and apart from Brainy and Nura (my two favourites I have to say) and Jo and Cos appearing in every issue I really have no big complaints.

The Legion would benefit from being a $3.99 title with extra pages... Give Levitz the space needed to properly expand the scope he (and we) seems to be missing with the current run. The question is, would enough of us support it to make it viable?

This was the only one I bought. I agree with everyone that the series just seems to be filler for the "Legion" fans.

I think the Durlan spy plot would have been a two issue story back in Levitz' original run.

I would still put this series above the Archie Legion. This series does make me like the Waid run ... which I didn't really like or find very interesting ... and didn't even finish the series.

In terms of interest, the current run is certainly below both the worst of the Threeboot and the worst of the Postboot. I can't muster much enthusiasm for the next issue of this run, unlike with the above two in which I still followed the series.

Yeah, I wouldn't say it's BAD, per se, but I feel it's been a squandered opportunity. With the New 52, Levitz had a chance to do something big and bold to really make fans willing to give it a shot now that they had a perfect place to start, and they squandered it by doing exactly what Power Boy said--filler that only appeals to the already converted.

Levitz has done a lot of great things for Legion, but I do honestly feel that some new blood needs to get on the book. A young Scott Snyder type who's willing to do something big and engrossing for the old fans and accessible for the potential new fans.

There has been a desire since Watchmen to make comics more "realistic".

What this actually means, however, is "Let's tell a story using currently accepted story-telling conventions rather than decades-old story conventions."

This is difficult to do with long-established comic book characters, whose origins grow out of the story-telling conventions of 1957.

The early Legion stories were told in an incredible shorthand- most of the "character development" occurred in the reader's mind. There were also wild, unexplained non sequitur excursions in every issue: living money, martian ice cream, alien zoos, the planetary chance machine... giving the books a strange, surreal, even absurdist quality.

By comparison, the current story-telling attempts are stultifyingly bland. But to tell a Legion story in the fifty-year-old fashion would be equally unacceptable in 2013.

Yeah, it's pretty bad.

Much of what I wanted to say, Fat Cramer already said.

[Goodness, could I have been an alt of FC all this time and not known it?]

I'd rank the current LoSH run above 'the worst of the threeboot, including issue 50' any day of the week, and while I'm less familiar with the other three 'worst runs,' it's because they were blah enough that I didn't buy them. And I'm still buying this.

Could it be better? A *hell* of a lot better? Yes. And it should be. I wish this were not the case, but Paul has lost a step. Saturn Girl's an orphan. I thought RJ Brande always talked that way. Lightning Lad's folks are alive. Gim's dad is dead, oh, no, he wasn't? Poof, he's back and he's the admiral of 'Starfleet,' which what the Federation, er, I mean, UP, always called their military, right, right?

I respect that he was handed a steaming pile of crazy, such as completely mischaracterized Polar Boy, and Brin & Ayla mysteriously back together again, and Karate Kid and Duo Damsel alive, no wait, dead again, for no explicable reason, and Wildfire may be Red Tornado, or not, and Dawnstars time-tossed affair with a hawt Thanagarian chick, but gosh, I hoped for so much more, and feel consistently disappointed.

But it's still, unfortunately, pretty far from the 'worst Legion ever.'

I think this run certainly ranks among the weakest ever, and in fact a comparison with the period between the first two Levitz runs is apt: not outright terrible or offensive but all around boring as hell and totally forgettable seconds after finishing each issue.

It's not quite as bad as the threeboot at its worst (my vote for nadir of Legion history) but its pretty bad.

It's not continuity that bothers me: I've now accepted that DC doesn't care about continuity beyond mucking with it as a marketing tool, and all the history I've known and loved is gone other than the stories we already have. What bothers me is the lack of heaviness to the stories: the seem so unimportant and "by the numbers". As Sarky said, there's also no scope. More than that, even smaller moments feel flaccid with character moments leaving me empty and feeling almost nothing for them (and they're my favorite comic book characters).

So weak stories and plots. Limited characterization, and what we have feels soft and "meh". No bigger picture and no smaller picture. And if you're one of those readers who still feels strongly about continuity, well that ones hurts too.

There is no way I'd recommend any potential interested reader to try the current Legion. And man, considering Levitz is my favorite Legion writer ever, that sucks.

It's not as bad as the "Archie" Legion. That's the only time I've ever considered dropping the title.

It's not Levitz at his best though.

The Levitz Legion always had a grand scale, and felt like a well formed Universe of it's own. It had a look and feel and a pacing all it's own.

I don't feel any of that here. The background sub-plots are gone, so the overall grand storyline is lost.

Will Giffen give him the shot in the arm he needs or is he being ham-strung by editorial?

Writing for the trade....not a style that suits Levitz particularly well.

I don't know that I would call it bad so much as just insanely boring. I'm reading Threeboot for the first time right now and I can say with honesty that I'm enjoying it much more than the current run. I don't know how to explain it other than to say that it feels like it's on autopilot. There's no spark. There's no excitement. I'd rather be angry at some daring choices I don't agree with versus this... stale feeling.

Legion feels like nine day old bread.

Well, I'm older. My expectations and insight have changed. That must affect how I'd compare eras.

Waid's "eat it Grandpa" is the only run I do not have so I guess I'd have to put that at the bottom.

This run? The last year has been more interesting. Levitz was up front coming in, he wanted to shock the world. A completely stupid approach that hasn't worked ANYWHERE. Someone at DC should have had the nerve to say, "don't do that."

We have Dexter on TV. No one is going to be "shocked" by blowing up Titan and they're only going to get p-oed if someone takes a favorite character and tries to give them a dark past that is so out of character. Do established readers want to wait 10 years to see that character develop back into what we knew?

That was the judgement made and I think it backfired. It didn't draw new readers and it didn't keep old readers. I honestly can't see why they thought it would succeed.

If he had gone for depth and mystery much like his well known run, we'd be fine I think. We had to look for clues and we had to reread old issues to see that something that appeared to come out of nowhere, really didn't.

It seems to be getting back to that.

Some of you have hit on exactly why I feel the way I do about the current Levitz run: It's just so friggin' "meh" that I just don't care about it enough to have ANY kind of emotional reaction to it!

In all the other "bad" runs I cite, there was enough quality before or during them at points that I had reason to feel at least some disappointment that things had taken a turn for the worse. Here, it's so bland and by-the-numbers (and has been for a while, imo) at best that I just feel nothing, and as Cobie says, I instantly forget what I read as soon as I put down an issue.

I also agree that the book was better during the last volume when Paul had more pages to work with per issue. Once the drop to twenty pages happened, that's when I can pinpoint the quality suddenly dropping steeply. However, a writer should use that limitation as a challenge to give us more with less, not as an excuse to remove all the depth from the material. Plenty of other writers with complicated books had smooth transitions with losing page counts, so I don't see why it would severely hamper a veteran like Paul. And hell, LSH was a 22-page book during his heyday, so why should a 20-pager stymie him so?

And BB...Levitz has "shocked the world" with the New 52? Did I miss that issue? I'd take a little "shock" over what has been over two years of total apathy at best!

As others have said, only the "day in the life" issue with Walt Simonson has done anything for me to this point. Otherwise, other than some decent to very good art, Legion Lost Vol. 2, the current volume of LSH and the, imo, dreadfully pointless Secret Origin mini represent the worst era for me, a diehard fan very familiar with all eras.

I suspect he was referring to those awkward interviews Paul gave just before the new launch where he bragged about blowing up planets and breaking up long-established relationships to 'shake things up.'

The latest Giffen interview fills me with the same sort of je ne cest quoi, since it sounds like the same lame 'shake things up' rhetoric.

[Je ne c'est quoi, in this case, since I don't know if there's a word in English for being disappointed with something before even seeing it because it's going in a direction that's proved a dismal disappointment in the past.]

While reading the Threeboot I still had the energy to be worried about Projectra, to be pissed at Ultra Boy, to wish Invisible Kid would grow up, and to wonder about what Brainiac 5 or Saturn Girl would pull next.

During the "Archie Legion", I still had the energy to wish for Kinetix to be de-zombified, to wish that XS and Magno would get together, to be annoyed at Saturn Girl's treatment of Live Wire, and to wish Ferro would grow up.

Now, I can't even get excited about opening the next issue.

There's a lot of negativity on this thread so I feel it's time to change direction. There are flaws with this NU52 universe, absolutely there are but that's not all that's going on. I'm enjoying Brainy's snarkiness, Harmonias arrogance and apparent scheming, the bromance between Jo and Mon, Nura's mega confidence and defence of Brainy, Chemical Kid's growth, Cosmic Boy's mother hen attitude, Jan's interest in developing Chemical Kid (please no grooming comments ), the slow build up of the Fatal Five story, Cham's detective work and the underplayed but charming relationship between Vi and Alya.

I think Cobalt Kid sums things up nicely, including his agreement with Conjure Lass to prefer "daring choices I don't agree with versus this... stale feeling"

A thousand times "YES!!!!" I agree with this statement wholeheartedly!

Because I don't care about these characters so much anymore.

And I would rather care. The Legion has meant a lot to me throughout my lifetime.

As far as the nadir of Legion history, the Archie Legion era was the only time I have found myself NOT buying the Legion for a long period (although "Legion on the Run" managed to make me close my eyes for a few issues at least).

I don't put the current run down to that level... but here, I have higher expectations because I know what Levitz has done in the past. It is more disappointing this way.

As to Harbinger's attempt to bring some positivity: I have enjoyed quite a bit of the characterization. I like the new Chem Kid working with Jan to learn some things, I think that is awesome (and maybe an avenue into a gay romance between active Legionnaires?).

But I want more energy from my Legion.

And all I see in the title is inert.

I do think it's getting better. It started out interesting, took a downward dive during the LSV story (where ironically Adventure got stronger), and then meandered a little after the New52, but has been slowly starting to gel. I know 2+ years is a long time to give someone, but I think Levitz is starting to get back into shape. My biggest complaint right now is that he doesn't seem to know how to end an issue or an arc, giving it a disjointed feel. I'm hoping Giffen's layouts give a better flow to it. I'm really worried about the actual Giffen art, but as a layout man, when he's on, he's on.

I think it has improved a fair bit since the last series....I find myself actually looking forward to upcoming issues more and more lately, rather than just buying them out of loyalty to the characters.

It still could be better, but for me it's not actively bad as the Archie Legion got at one stage, or as bad as 5YL got just before Zero Hour....so my take is that there is definite and obvious room for improvement, but I also think that improvement is being made every issue.

I definitely welcome opposing views as to the current run's quality. But I'm so ambivalent about it that I have issues 15 & 16 just sitting in my pull bag. There are just SO many comics out there that command more attention for me every week.

But to clarify, for me, it's not the ENTIRETY of Levitz's current run that's left me cold. I enjoyed issues 1-6 of the previous volume and its annual a great deal. It was still readable from 7-10 and then began to decline thru the LSV arc that ended the series.

Then, the New 52 relaunch with the current volume has completely left me cold with the exception of issue 5, which I quite liked. Legion Lost was so bad for me that I dropped it after issue #7. Secret Origins, I bought the entirety of, but I felt it was a waste of good Chris Batista art and about as uninteresting and unengaging as anything I've ever read.

Often, I find myself just wishing DC had just kept the reboot/post-Zero Hour Legion going because if this is going home...I guess you really can't go home again.

I'm sorry that you feel this way about the Legion. Do what you like, but I'd read Legion #16 if I were you. Levitz is setting the stage for a lot of interesting storylines, plus with this being a Legion Leader election issue, if had the feel of past glory days.

I know you gave up on Legion Lost, but I would go back and at least pick up Legion Lost #10, it seems to foreshadow the ending of Legion #16. I think Dawnstar, Wildfire and Gates stumbled upon something important in Levitz's 31st century.

While I agree that the New 52 thing caused Levitz to stumble for a bit, he is getting back to his old storytelling self, putting subtle plot threads out there for the coming arc as far back as Legion #8 and Legion Lost #10. That's the power of a master storytelling to weave stories with such long threads.

Do what you like. Let your Legion issues pile up. I for one am enjoying the ride.