Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes What could be editorial interference?

In the sales thread it was suggested that some of the Legion's problems could be because of editorial interference. I'm wondering... exactly what aspects of the Legion could be this? So far I can guess at:
-- Legion Lost (well, this is a given as editorial interference) and the use of 31st century time travellers in it
-- XS being gone (this is pretty much also a given)
-- Vagueness about Superboy and Supergirl (also a given, although it's obvious that Superboy was a Legion member given the Adult Legion stories in Action Comics)
-- The Fatal Five not having previously existed/met the Legion. It seems a very odd choice for Paul to pick out of the blue as a new piece of post-52 continuity, considering that everything else about the Fatal Five is pretty much kept (aside from Tharok in #0). I can almost imagine someone telling him he has to change something and him picking the Fatal Five.
-- That being said, Legion #0 itself. Again, given that Paul usually hasn't been retconning origins like this, the Tharok and Brainy retcons feel like someone at DC said "okay, here's your #0, we need you to change something". (Legion Lost #0 as well, although the Brin retcon really hasn't affected the main book.)
-- Focus on the new members with the #1 issue of the New 52.

The Legion #0 stuff seems to fit in pretty well with the stuff Paul was doing in the Secret Origins stuff, so I'm actually not sure whether that's really editorial interference versus Paul just deciding to rewrite details of the team's origin.

I suspect there was strong editorial interference in the GL stuff in the last volume, with Paul being told what he could and couldn't use. Apparently, editorial constraints on what could be used are also responsible for Giffen quitting the current storyline after two issues, but it's hard to tell exactly the problem is (my suspicion is that he wanted to use New God/Kirby stuff that was taken off the table).

the never pre existed Fatal Five sure sounds like a reinventing the wheel with a cube shape that DC is so fond of now.

every DC book seems to involve ... heroes meet their greatest enemy for the first time. (again).

and i agree with the all GL LSH too. "we've got a movie to sell people!"

What do you mean "never pre-existed Fatal Five"? I thought the current Legion stories were all about the fact that the Fatal Five was being "re-assembled." The Legionnaires seem to know exactly which villains to look for (Persuader, Validus). If prior Fatal Five stories were retconned out by the new 52, how does any of that make sense?

I think i read somewhere that the fatal five aren't rectconned as individuals but as a group they've never existed.

As I understand it, they've existed as a group (and hence are being re-assembled), but the Legion has never met them as a group (though they may have encountered them as individuals).

Thus you have Legionnaires saying things like "If the legends about the Fatal Five are true..."

Could Timber Wolf's revised origin also have been editorial interference? Though why, I don't know...

Earth-man's inclusion way back?

I wonder if any of the written-out Legionnaires were editorially mandated as well. We lost quite a few whom Levitz used for quite a while before: Garth, Imra, Jeckie, Gim.

Could recent deaths be editorially mandated too? Maybe not which Legionnaires to actually kill, but just how many per issue.

Actually, I think Earth Man was Levitz' attempt at continuity with Johns' Action and L3W runs. He provided a nice bridge for Levitz to get the ball rolling.

I don't think every Legion death or resignation is editorial mandated. Levitz simply shuffled off several members to supporting cast status where they had been or were heading at the end of his run in the late 1980's. Levitz likes continuity in his 31st century universe, and he had to return the universe to his perception.

Yeah, the only membership change which seems editorially driven is the Legion Lost crew being missing, and possibly the resultant addition of the Academy kids, whose inductions were probably heavily influenced by the positive reception that the Academy arc received, though the decision to bring them into the fold could easily have been Levitz's as anyone else.

The thing about Legion Lost though is, if it was editorially mandated, it seems to be (possibly) for the right reasons

We have known for awhile that Legion being isolated from the main DCU means it occasionally struggles to attract new readers. So I always thought having a team of Legionaires in the present day could act as a bridge to the team. As readers picked up Lost they maybe more inclined to try out the main book as well.

Obviously that hasn't worked as Lost wasn't great and got worse and the early issues of the main book were rather underwhelming. But if this is an example of editorial interference then I say more please.

The academy students were added for the New 52 #1. They had appeared before (somewhat--Harmonia hadn't even shown her powers before that) but emphasizing them felt like editorial interference at the time.

I agree that Earth-Man was unlikely to be editorial interference. Killing Sun Boy sounds more like Giffen than like editorial interference (though I'm still skeptical that anyone with no identifiable body is really dead).

The main problems with Legion Lost were 1) switching writers midstream and 2) having multiple crossovers with DCU books before it really got started with the new writer.

Mon-El, Element Lad, Sensor Girl, Tellus, Quislet and Chameleon Boy having been present in the present DCU (when Mon-El was filling in for Superman temporarily during the Kandorian story arc) was, IMO, a better use of the Legion in the present-day.

They had a clear mission, unlike Legion Lost, which was apparently intended to go on past the original Hypertaxis arc, but, it seemed, didn't really have a solid game plan for what to do after the Alastor arc. (And was perhaps further derailed by the constant crossover / Harvest nonsense.)

I think Legion Lost might have been more successful as a 6 or 10 issue limited series, with a clear defined arc, and then returned the Legion to their home time, perhaps either leaving one Legionnaire behind (in the vein of Karate Kid's series), or bringing a 21st century person with them to the future, if a 'tie-in' to the 'current day' is needed to anchor the Legion title in some way.

Maybe, though spotlighting new members is a fairly standard practice. The Levitz Five got quite a bit of screen time after joining in v3, for example.

Plus, again, the positive reaction to the Academy stories in Adventure may have had a bit to do with that as well.

That sounds right to me. Except that, after a 30-year gap in the Levitz continuity, he should have spent more time re-establishing for readers old and new who the Legion was, rather than shuffling the founders and other veterans off to the side and highlighting so many brand new characters.

I think that the Legion concept would be better off now if they had stuck with two books--a veterans book which picked up the old Levitz story, and an Academy book which could capture the youthful energy of teenegers finding their way. Crossovers between those two books would be much more naturally integrated than the unpleasant team-ups we saw in Legion Lost.

I'm tired of Legion fans having to resort to this excuse. We've been doing it for decades. The Legion is a tremendous concept which could be richly developed by the right writers and artists. Superboy introduced them to the comics world; they should have been able to step into their own spotlight by now. A Legion engagement with a 20th-century DC character shouldn't be a book-saving ploy. It should just add a little spice to an already great story.

If DC would commit to letting great writers tell great stories with their fine characters, rather than using the characters mainly as marketing tools, they might find a growing audience.

I think the DCU (and, at times, the Marvel Universe) are both handicaps that sometimes stand in the way of good Batman stories or good Superman stories or good X-Men stories, because they inevitably beg the question of why the heroes aren't *constantly* crossing over. Why is Gotham such a festering dump, when the Flash could *literally* clean up the cities crime problems (and various other elements of urban decay) in ten seconds or less. Why does mutant hysteria exist in the same universe where they have Avengers days parades with floats of the celebrity Beast? (One of the more 'mutant looking' mutants, and one of the original X-Men!)

I think a *lot* of books, and not just the Legion, would be far better served by being more or less divorced from the mainstream 'DCU' or '616 MU.'

Indeed, some of DC and Marvel's best books, IMO, have utterly done away with that sort of thing (such as Sandman or the Watchmen or the Exiles or X-Men 2099), or pick and chose which bits of continuity they wanted to include *on their own terms* (such as Morrison's run on Swamp Thing, or Simonson's run on Thor).

If both houses were run more like the pre-Crisis DCU, where the Justice League and Justice Society lived on different Earths entirely, and only crossed over on very special occasions, I think many titles would be stronger for it.

Nobody would be left wondering why Batman swings around on a rope *when he has a ****ing teleporter in his belt*, since the Batman in the Justice League with his satellites and his synthetic kryptonite and his OMACs wouldn't necessarily be the same Batman that punches drug-dealers in the face in gritty 'realistic' Gotham, whose most spectacular high-tech gizmo is a portable grappling hook launcher that can support 500 lbs. and fit in a lipstick container.

The Legion (or Guardians of the Galaxy, or Exiles) may indeed be some of the properties that would be *strongest* if kept the hell away from mainstream continuity, but I think a *lot* of DC and Marvel characters (and teams) could benefit from some independence, and not being shackled to some sort of shared universe 'meta-continuity.'

Hell, the Legion can't even have it's *own* continuity (we're on what, version 4? version 5?), so expecting it to tie in to Superman, Batman or Wonder Woman's multiple continuities, or whatever-the-hell-Hawkman-is-this-week, is, IMO, totally unrealistic.

I wouldn't be surprised if specific membership changes were Levitz's decision, his previous runs have had many membership changes. What I wouldn't be so surprised to hear would be if editorial influence were behind the team's size (e.g. editorial says, OK bring the team down to 15, lose X current members while adding Y new members...)

I totally agree with Set's statements above that keeping propertes divorced from one another would have many positive effects. There have been several Justice League runs when so-and-so would suddenly be dropped because of developments in another book (Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman just to name a few)!

How would we treat team books though? Would Batman solo stories necessarily have to take place in a different universe than JLA stories that include Batman?

And yet the fact remains that in the early 1980s the Legion was DC's #2 selling book with virtually no crossing over with titles set in the 20th century (except an occasional appearance in dedicated team-up books like DC Comics Presents). It was only after editorially-mandated changes like the elimination of Superboy from the group's history, and later the whole Glorithverse thing, that the series started losing readership.

Most definitely the book was a big seller back in the Eighties but I think that overlooks the fundamental differences between the comic buyers of then and now.

As far as I can tell the fans today are far more conservative than previously and, as a result, far less willing to take a punt on books that are not considered core or important in someways.

I do not know if you listen to iFanboy at all but whenever the Legion is brought up they automatically dismiss it as too complicated, the cast is too large or why does it matter. Unfortunately this view is not just limited to one site if you visit the forums of CBR or any of the bigger sites for every one pro-Legion comment there will be three saying the distance from the DCU is a reason why they do not buy it.

There is a reason why pretty much every DC book is Bat or Justice League something and Marvel have the words Spider, X or Avengers in front of their books and that is, obviously, because they sell, and in the case of Justice League regardless of quality, as that is where the 'important' events happen.

It has got to the point where even if (insert your favourite Legion creative team here) were on the book doing the best work of their lives it would make little difference to sales.

Cosmic/space books seem to have reached a ceiling at the big two of between 15-20,000 sales a month regardless of quality. Sure there will always be spikes like Legion of 3 Worlds and obviously both Nova and Guardians of the Galaxy are selling very well at present; but Loeb is leaving Nova shortly so it will be interesting to see how that holds up without the big names and they might as well have renamed Guardians 'The Space Avengers' they have changed it so much to get people interested in both the book and the movie (which, judging by the cast so far, will need all the help it can get).

I must point out that, if given the choice, I do not want changes to the team and the only ties to the present day I like in my Legion are called Kara, Lar and Dev (and I am not too fussed about Lar) but I also still want a monthly Legion book on the stands (I would prefer five but am willing to start with one really good one and work from there (not that I am saying the current one is really good as it isn't)) and if changes have to be made to bring in new fans then, as long as I can still see enough of the things that make the Legion for me, then I am prepared to give them a try.

I don't understand some peoples' mindset that a book being connected to the DCU closely makes it easier to follow. Howso? I actually find it MUCH more difficult to follow books when I'm forced into buying six other books just to understand the story. The Legion has always, for the most part, been self-contained, and that's why I liked it. If I want, I can walk into the comic shop and pick up nothing but the Legion and know EXACTLY what's going on. I don't have to buy a copy of Superman, Supergirl, the JLA, AND the Legion just to get a full understanding of the plot. That, to me, should be a POSITIVE for new readers, not a negative!

I don't get it either.

Then again, I don't get why Atomic Robo isn't easily a Top five selling title every month either.

Silly comic fanboys.

Agreed. Obviously we Legion fans are the ones with all the smarts. XD

No it is a mystery to me too (both the Legion being confusing thing and Atomic Robo not selling like hot cakes).

Like Conjure Lass says the Legion is one of the easiest books to get into as the only book you need to understand it is the one in your hands. Sure you may not recognise (m)any of the characters at first but hat is the beauty of those little yellow boxes telling you who they are. But people just do not seem willing to work at things anymore and only want to read books featuring the characters they already know.

When I started reading the Legion during the Reflecto saga I had absolutely no idea who anybody was or what was going on and to make matters worse the next issue was a completely unrelated fill-in with an entirely different cast and situation but I was prepared to stick with it. Unfortunately the story made no sense at its conclusion (but did feature Space Pirates (remember when the Legion would battle them and the universe was not at risk every issue?) which are always awesome) but I was hooked by then. Nowadays that book would be lucky to make a year before being cancelled.

Another example is Threshold a decent but not great book with a cast that, Blue Beetle aside, is going to be largely unknown and requires a little bit of effort to keep up with (a point Giffen made with an advert in one of the issues) but, instead, is shedding readers at an alarming rate and is presumably not long for this world.

I'm wondering if Paul's being directed editorially pair down Legion membership for the upcoming Justice League 31st Century. I agree that Sunboy's death is probably Keith's doing and it's possible that's the only death. I find myself wishing that Paul had quit at the same time as Keith.

A seemingly pointless retcon.



Done to get in a single reference to Echo for a title that would get cancelled quicker? Nearly Pointless retcon. [/quote]


I could see the reason for doing this. Then there was the shock of Shadow Lass sleeping with him. But it’s not just the Xenophobia. it’s that Earth Man had murdered people that were supposedly friends of the Legion. Imprisoned and tortured others. There should have been another Legion title of those who just quit on the spot.


A quick glance at the induction of Polar, Boy, Tellus et al shows that they got a lot of panel time too. They weren’t very effective to begin with either (arguably they never quite made it) and were built up over a fair amount of time. That was the time when the founding three took a back seat too. Levitz has repeated the approach here.

Looking back on the run, Harmonia has a place (summons Fire Lad power)and the others have grown on me. Partly due to the exposure in the Adventure run. But partly, because they are being integrated more. Element Lad training Chemical Kid for example.



It’s interesting that it’s all the bronze age characters, plus a telepath and a teleporter for plot contrivance reasons. It leaves the Adventure Legion plus the new recruits to play with. So, there’s some logic in there. It’s shame that it was such a huge let down from the first issue.


I don’t see why the Legion can’t be the focal point for crossovers, rather than being slaves to the next committee whim. It has the broadest geographical, technological, and cosmic scope of any DC book. This doesn’t mean that there are hundreds of crossovers. Just good stories focused in part on the Legion.


I disagree with that opinion. I think it’s a convenient stick to beat the title with, more than anything particularly objective. The group has a rich history, and you can easily pick whatever you want from it to tell good stories. It’s a foundation for good stories, not a handicap.

I know people who picked up their first Legion issue after the 5YG. They loved it (until the fill ins kicked in at least) because of the strong storytelling, scope, characterisation and some humour.