Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Justice League 3000

I'm not sure how to go about starting a poll on this page but maybe someone else could:

Keith Giffen is....

A) Satan / Antichrist

B) A scumbag hack of a writer and the sole reason that he has one failed title after another is because he's Didio's pal

C) A name that should be taught to small children, along the same lines of 'stranger danger'

D) The third most popular image used for pinatas, and moving up the list rather fast, so I hear

E) Other

Just a reminder to everyone that Rule One of the User Agreement extends to creators as well as fellow posters.



Thanks.

Having gone through all of DC's Sneak Peeks,

"In true Giffen & DeMatteis style, the issue is centred around lots of talking in a restaurant. Following that style, the only real threats to the people they are supposed to be protecting, comes from the "heroes" themselves. In this case, the demolition of said establishment.

The writers generally give their characters an obvious flaw to exploit. They might not be deep, but they are there. Superman is an arrogant blowhard, who can't believe he's not adored. Having lost his fortune, Bruce is stingy. In another "comedy" reversal, Guy Gardner is now in a woman's body. Wonder Woman is overly aggressive, but with a strong sense of lost connections. There's a Flash related character and the group's leader who I'm not familiar with. They are Clark and Bruce's lucky dates for the evening. It's a League without any notable heroism, and with shallow characters. But as an introduction to the characters, you certainly know what everyone's flaws are.

It's a self contained preview. As it's all set in one place, I've no idea what the universe they find themselves in is actually like. Perhaps no one else wants to share a building with them, just like the customers here. (This would rate much lower if I was to remember any affection for the genuine versions of the characters shown here)."

Only 1 or 2 of the Peeks I thought were decent enough to give a second look to. This wasn't one of them. However, out of all of them this was the book where you knew a lot about everyone's personality by the end. So it had a certain strength there.

Here is why I am upset. It's not Giffen and deMatteis, it's Warner management.

First off, they were legitimately surprised by the overwhelmingly positive grass-roots reaction to the announcement of the Supergirl TV series, even moving the premier back six weeks into the regular season.

Secondly, despite this slight departure from a complete lack of faith in the Supergirl character, her own book was cancelled. Boom.

Thirdly, the Supergirl character has now been deported from the main continutity into JLA 3001, where the writers are given 'trashed' characters that upper management doesn't care about the writers to play with... which they subsequently humiliate, torture, and kill.

I hate to see any version of Kara thrown into that cesspool.

I understand it us supposed to be humor. I just don't get the joke.

The old JLA humor seemed to me more light-hearted. In this run the jokes seem to come from misogyny, misanthropy, and disdain.

Maybe its just the curmudeonliness of old age.

Well, at least you have actual reasons relating to the book, SP. Some others here, I'm less sure about...


AFAIK (bearing in mind I didn't read most of JL3000):
1) Earth's a wreck, now called Takton-Galtos.
2) The real Fire, Ice, Beetle and Booster are hanging around (Fire for reasons to do with Etrigan, Beetle & Booster Philip J. Fry'd their way to the future and Ice just... lived that long) now along with - apparently - the real Kara Zor-El Supergirl too.
3) Everyone else are Cadmus-created clones, made by turning existing people into copies of the Leaguers of days past. Obviously, the process is SEVERELY flawed.
4) After the Flash clone died, a pre-existing character was used as the template for a new one, but has somehow kept her own personality rather than get overwritten.

Surprising that in a time where superheroes have never been more prominent across various media platforms, they are as clueless as they were decades ago.



I'm reminded of pre-crisis, where DC took the character off the board so they could kill her off. They hoped that the film wouldn't be a success as the bean counters would then insist on her continuation. As powerful a story as it was, I think they missed the point of what they are there to do on that one.



Ah, so this is the actual Supergirl. I was under the impression that all of this cast were variations/versions of their old cast lifted and dropped in as it suited them. Weren't versions of Fire and Ice there at some point? And so on. If it's the actual post convergence Supergirl, and they are using her because they couldn't get Mary Marvel as they did in their mini, then ...yeah. I can see why that could be an issue.

On the plus side, at DC's rate it will be retconned away shortly. On the downside, it will be a low point for the character.



Based on the Sneak Peek, it was less Bwah hah ha and more large amounts of interpersonal dialogue. That was part of the original JLA.

Personally I liked some of that with the suspense/ action of the first arc, where the team was changing and evolving. Without an actual plot you're left with Bwah ha ha or lots of dialogue filling plot free pages. This seems to be the latter.

As I posted, everyone was pretty shallow, so expect Supergirl to play off that in a similarly one note way.



It was in large parts but both creators have not shied away from using darker themes to their books. I've just read the first couple of issues of Giffen's Doctor Fate mini. It has a few pretty troubling pages in there. But by the time the ongoing came along, it was much more upbeat.



I think it's a reaction to the shifting curmudeonliness of the writers

"I think it's a reaction to the shifting curmudeonliness of the writers"

I totally meant that it was Giffen and DeMatteis turning into Statler and Waldorf, not me.

For myself, I am still full of youthful vigor and sunny optimism.

I'm only at the help-sell-all-your-kid's-girl-scout-cookies stage of life.

Which is why I am looking forward to the new Supergirl on CBS. Melissa Benoit's greatest asset as Supergirl is her smile.

You'll need to let me in on the secret of that one.

You'd think that if the TV show is the slightest bit successful (and you'd think just having one would be enough), DC will be forced (and it does seem that's the word for them in this) to whisk the character away from Giffen and into DC prominence elsewhere.

Reading an article on JLI in Amazing Heroes from May 1987, and this comment by the writer made me chuckle



Give it time, give it time...




Perhaps have them wear something like...jackets... Avengery jackets...




Oops... throwing Darkseid into things is pretty much all DC does now...

The article shows that the team had some very solid ideas about tacking the book, with a cast that was imposed on them to begin with.

Giffen goes on at length about the importance of versatility within the stories. Some espionage, some super heroics, some light hearted issues and building up the characters too. It's a shame it focused so much on Bwah ha ha as it went on.

People remember that, but there's stuff like the Despero arc in there. Not to mention Breakdowns at the end...

I was thinking of Despero as I typed. But I felt it was far enough into the run that the humour had already taken over to an unbalancing degree.

The General Glory stuff came after that... which also stays with me, and not in a good way.

I don't remember Breakdowns fondly at all. Didn't the creative team say that they should have quit before that?

Breakdowns... it had some good moments - the Silver Sorceress' sacrifice stands out - but it was too long, basically.

Finished JL3001 #1 & #2 and, at the risk of being banished from Legion fandom, enjoyed them. Supes is still a jerk but he fights the good fight, Ice & Fire make a great team, I wonder when Lois Lane became evil, the whole thing is pretty nutso and some LSH members (but not named as such) make a brief and unfortunate appearance.

You've got to love Supergirl, though. She's authentic. She's a hero. She gets the job done and is a peacemaker. It reminds me of that scene in the 3boot when the SPs, who loathed the Legion, adored Supergirl. I don't like messed up Supergirl - and maybe the JL3001 team doesn't either.

Two pages of silly FAQs, which made me smile (no bwa-ha-ha).

Despite my dislike of Giffen, I don't consider myself to blindly hate the idea of a funny superhero team. Peter David's three runs on X-Factor had a lot of wonderful moments, and were obviously inspired by JLI. A few years ago, I borrowed the JLI trades from the library and read them with an open mind. My reaction was the same as my reaction to most of what Giffen does: a promising start which quickly unravels into something that is not to my taste. I found it lacking in verve, and I felt it became a little too impressed with itself and the comedy started to dominate to the detriment of everything else. Having said that, if the rest of the original JLI/JLE run is ever collected in trades (which at this point seems unlikely), I would continue to read them with an open mind. But I doubt I'll ever give JL3000/3001 a chance -- Sue Pergirl's post would seem to indicate that Giffen and DeMatteis have gotten coarser with age, and that's a major turn-off for me.

It's difficult to maintain humour in a superhero book that goes on for extended publication. I liked the original JLI but the jokes became repetitive and/or ridiculous and it just wears on the reader. I forget at what point I stopped reading the series.

JL3000/3001 risks falling into that same trap. I would probably read it with greater satisfaction if I knew there was a specific endpoint. Wrap everything up by the end of 3001: either the team rises above their differences and personality failings, or the experiment ends, the DNA of the original people is somehow restored and they go about trying to make the galaxy a better place as regular humans - which is a really boring story, so the series ends.

Sue Pergil wrote about her concern that Supergirl would be thrown in the JL cesspool. That's a valid fear given the tone of the book so far, but based on the last issue, Supergirl is the pure light who may continue untainted by her surroundings, and may even inspire others to higher behaviour. Personally, I'd like to see that, so it may be just wishful thinking.

Don't let me stop you from reading a book I haven't read.

I got through the first six issues of JLA3000 before dropping the book.

I said to myself do I really need this kind of pessimism in my life?

Giffen and DeMatteis ask the question, "What if superheroes were just regular people?" and they have a pretty low opinion of regular people.

I actually hold out great hope for the human race.

#Tomorrowland

It's all right. I probably wouldn't have read it either way.



Me too. It's always nice to find out that someone else feels that way.