Only one of the comic news sites, CBR , carried the one bit of Legion news to come out of day one at the Heroes Convention in Charlotte, NC today. During the DC Nation panel Dan DiDio had this to say when asked if there any plans for the 50th anniversary of the Legion of Super Heroes coming next year:

I just wish they'd hurry up and tell us where the major celebration is happening. I can't imagine it would be anywhere but SDCC but you never know.

isn't next year the Legion's 50th?

Yep. And that's what it says above.

all right! at least they're not teasing-and-abandoning us with JLA/JSA.

The more I think on it, reintro-ing young Clark's LSH history has to have reasonably permanent implications.

http://www.comicbloc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50803

I don't know if any of you have seen this yet and i oculdn't find anything in here about it, but look at Geoff Johns' post about halfway down the first page...

SPOILER SPECULATION

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So, is it a mini detailing the new Supes/LSH history or what?

pleeeeease . . . pretty please

Maybe it's just wishful thinking, but it seems to me that DC is at least tinkering with the notion of managing and expanding the Legion brand-name, instead of letting lapse into obscurity. I don't think it just the upcoming 50th anniversary.

They must look at Marvel's success with the <insert adjective here> X-<insert noun here> strategy and wonder what properties they have that they could expand with similar success.

JLA/JSA/Titans/the Legion is a pretty awesome inventory. Surely DC can come up with a strategy for developing all four brand-names without cannibalizing their own sales. (Well, maybe not.)

I'm curious to see how the WaK Legion and the 2007 JLA/JSA crossover Legion fit in the multiverse. Maybe 2008 will bring us a Legion/Legion crossover. : )

This could be anything from a new series to a mini to just the announced appearance of this Legion in Action Comics. Any way, though, I'd be happy to see more of them.

And if DC doesn't cash in on the Legion's 50th anniversary they are idiots. Michael just posted a reminder out over in the Omnicom that the Legion is the first super-powered team of the Silver Age. They predate everyone. They need to have a media blitz to the point where we're all sick of the Legion.

Heh, that was me who started that thread! Yes it worked! Somebody has to give DC a kick in the pants! Maybe we should all email them about the Legion's 50th! Legion Worlders Unite! Assemble! Um, transform?

Ah,

YES
YES
YES
YES
YES
YES
YES

I'll buy 5 issues every month to support the thing.

So, uh, is anyone else checking Newsarama every five minutes?

Post a link when it come up. Thanks!

that'd be kind of sadly obsessive wouldn't it? Uh . . .gotta run, back in a minute.

You guys realize Newsarama has a "Meta Refresh" tag and reloads automatically every few minutes without your intervention, don't you?

Yeah but I think we are jumping the gun. Depending on the time Geoff posted that we may be waiting on a Friday article.

Well, he wrote it at like 9:00 last night, so I'm guessing he means today.

Now I think they making us wait on purpose. Newsarama is toying with us!!! I know it!

Haven't read it yet. Link

Actually he posted it a little after Midnight (by my time zone). So unless he posts from the Pacific he posted it, technically, today.

On Meltzer's blog he also said that the article would appear today.

I just hope it appears before 5 PM EST... that's when I go home for the day.

Knew it. Just the arc name in the upcoming "Action" run.

Just a quick note. Action Comics #858 should be, scheduling issues aside, the November 2007 issue. Right around Thanksgiving given the current release schedule.

You know, though, I'm just as happy with this. Now that the team has sorta been re-introduced, let's have an arc that really delves in a little, so we can get a better idea of who these people are.

If the fan reaction warrants it, we'll see something down the road... like right around the time that George Perez finishes up his Brave and the Bold run

Who writes that series? Geoff or Busiek?

Right now? Geoff Johns and Richard Donner. For the Legion arc? According to the article, Gary Frank will be the penciller so I'm assuming Johns will be writing.

Yes! Thanks LL.

Geoff, occasionally with Richard Donner. Of course, the whole series has been upended because of art delays from Adam Kubert. So, after months delay, it looks like we get one more installment of the Phantom Zone villians story in July, then we have to wait for some annual (unscheduled?) ala Heinberg's Wonder Woman. If I sound snarky and frustrated, it's because I am. Johns and Donner started doing some really great things with Supes (as has Busiek), only to have it completely thrown off track by production delays. The Action Comics schedule for the summer looks crazier than the Bizarro World freeway system.

If there's a theme in Johns' work on Action, it's restoring and enhancing old elements of the Superman mythos--Phantom Zone villains, Mon-El, Bizarro World, so the Legion fits in perfectly with that.

Now merged!

doublechinner, yeah i really got into the first few issues of Johns/Donner but then said I will just wait for it to be over and read the whole thing at once. I better do that and read it before the Legion show up.

Thanks Gary!

It sounded impressive didn't! I love when he does that! He's the Legion World God.

Or the Legion World Progenitor, anyway.

On other message boards, you delete messages. On Legion World, messages delete YOU.

Would snail mail post cards or letters make more of an immpression?

Clap your hands if you believe in the 80s Legion!

(clap!clap!clap!)

I believe in the 80s Legion, I'm just not sure I believe in the Johns/Meltzer Legion.

I enjoyed John's Legion more than Meltzer's. Both are still a step up from Waid, but I think below what the Legion can be.

I heard the Legion's being featured in a multi-part storyline in Action Comics coming this fall.
I need details,people! Writer? Artist? Which version of the Legion?
Start talkin'!

Info is here Rhino.

Merged again!

Geoff Johns & Gary Frank I believe. Frank's Legion will be...interesting. He's one of those artists that can go either way.

Thanx, Scott & Gary!

Action Comics 851 will have Mon-El but Superman barely remembers him?! Newsrama article/preview

Thanks Jorge!

I'm catching up with Geoff Johns Action Comics.

Superman had "adopted" Lor-Zod the son of Zod. Ofcourse he didn't know he was Zod's son. He gave him the name Chris Kent.

Superman seems to have a problem remembering details when it comes to the Legion. We've seen in the Lightning Saga and now in Action comics.

I am currently only on Action #846 but I have this feeling. Perry White called Lor/Chris a "Kryptonian Kid". With the Legion appearing soon I wonder if Superman might give Lor over to them?

Also I wonder if the Legion erases Supes' memories when he goes back to the past and brings them back when he visits the future again?

This Action/Legion arc is going to be interesting.

That actually is well established in Legion Lore. Although they only wiped his memry completely once that I can recall, both Supes and Kara were under a hypnotic compulsion to forget anything they learned in the 30th Centruy that could cause them to change history through that knowledge.

During the Grell era, we learned that the Legion had also hidden lots of other important details from the Super cousins, like the Legion gene (DNA) bank because they feared that the temptation to use that knowledge to "resurrect" his parents or other loved ones would be too great.

Well Action #851 has a Legion related character besides Mon-El and I can't say I welcome it.

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Dev-Em is some crazy looking villain now. Looks nothing like the Dev-Em I know and love. </span></span>

I hate when DC does this. Infact, this character (or atleast his name) appeared recently in another DC work. Certainly wasn't the guy we know in either issue(52 and Action). Stop throwing these names around if you are going to make the character completely different.

Hmm... well, said character was originally <span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">a Kryptonian juvenile delinquent, before travelling to the 30th century and reforming</span></span>, so it wouldn't surprise me if they rebooted him as a Kryptonian criminal.

Disappointing, but not surprising.

don't forget when <span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text"> Dev-Em was a Valor villain who blew up the moon.</span></span>

Kent I didn't know that.

Also an earlier story by Dwayne McDuffie (fill-in for Geoff's late Action arc) has Superman battling a Sun-Eater. I am reading the original Sun-Eater story right now.

Same trick. The Eater blasts Superman with red sun rays. McDuffie has it do the same in the Action issue.

It seems DC is brushing up on their Legion history as well as me. Hmm, I wonder why?

So now that the Ligthning Saga is over - just read JLA though my comic shop missed to send me the fourth part JSA issue - I am really a little bit confused but far more excited that we got to see Brainy and Cos as well. And who was that guy/girl talking to Karate Kid at the end???

My only hope is that they will tell me in advance which issues to buy. The Legion return came as a surprise in JSA and it was pretty hard to get those back issues in Germany (at last I succeeded rather cheaply on Ebay...)

Cause I have no interest at all in buying Action comics without the Legion - I NEVER cared much for Superman - but fear I will miss something... again...

But hey - Gary Frank, that's a good news. Second best to George Perez, as good as Greg Land or Jiminez. Cool!

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Oct07/solicitations.html


Which Legion do you think he's going to visit?

Combined threads.

Superman wearing a legion ring again after all these years. I will probably never be able to criticize his version of the legion just because him being back in legion continuity is so right to me.

Wow. That image gave me goose bumps.

The Legion has never seemed right to me without Kal-El in it.

Of course that's because I think of the Pre-Crisis lonely Clark who really needed friends who understood what it was like to be different as opposed to the BMOC that Clark became after Byrne got his hands on him...

Here's hoping to see Dream Girl and Dawnstar again in Action Comics....*please finger crossing* and if possible, Sensor Girl.

I never really cared too much for Superboy being in the Legion, but it is kinda nice to see the Legion having an important place in SuperMAN's past. The best thing about "Lightning Saga" was just the possibilities that it offered in terms of seeing the Legion many of us loved. So far, there's been nothing to show that the pay off is going to be at all satisfying.

good point on both accounts, Drake.

But at this point I don't mind being strung along; the Lightning Saga Legion reminds me of why I love LSH. Threeboot does not.

BIG GEOFF NEWS! The man said it himself 18 minutes ago!

"Just for the record...

...it's the return of the originals as much as Green Lantern: Rebirth was the return of Hal Jordan

That's how I think of this arc. Rebirth for the original Legion.


Geoff"

So I guess no one else is that excited Geoff is bringing the original Legion back?! And it doesn't seem they will be disappearing anywhere in a Final Crisis?

Imo, Geoff saying that he's bringing the "original Legion" back is like WaK claiming they weren't rebooting the Legion.

It should be taken with a grain of salt.

And, if anything, it's disappointing because it means they're trying to pass off schizo Starboy, etc., as the "original" versions of the characters, and we won't be seeing a more traditional "Earth-1" Legion down the road.

The schizo thing I think goes to explain why he was always so...average? I'm not a big fan of it but when he goes back to the future he will be fine.

EDE, you have some Star Boy and Dream Girl issues I think maybe a good session with the local LWMB psychologist may be in order. It's ok they helped me snake Jeckie.

Oh well, maybe this Final Crisis will retcon all of the Johns/Meltzer retcons to the Legion away...

I am excited about a creator fulfilling his motivation to bring back the original legion. I'm a little anxious, though, about how it's all going to work out amongst the "three" different versions that will then be competing for attention.

I'm looking forward to it. It can't be any worse than anything else that has happened in how many incarnations...F' it! Give it a try! Wohoo!

Incidentally, I completely agree with our own Matthew E.\'s reply to Geoff's claim.

Wow, Matthew let him have it. I would think we should wait and see.

In the stories Superman himself has problems remembering. Superman still remembers Star Boy being kicked off the team...yet he has said a few times he doesn't remember everything clearly.

I'm actually pretty excited. I have to say, I see the point you and Matthew are making Eryk, but I'm not sure I agree. This is pretty much the pre-Crisis Legion with a diverged timeline from a certain point forward, probably from Crisis #11. In a sense, everything afterwards that we saw by Levitz, Giffen, T&M, etc, was one 'possible road to the adult future Legion', and now we're being presented with the first steps towards another.

Is it *the* original Legion? Not sure how you can quantify that, but it certainly is the 'original pre-boot/pre-crisis Legion' at a certain point in time led down another point.

I can't see how any difference in the Lightning Saga Legion are large enough to imply that there is character assassination/huge changes that are any different than say, Gerry Conway's version compared to Cary Bate's version. The only major ones (1) Why is Karate Kid still alive and what does that mean for him and Jeckie? and (2) Thom's schizophrenia are major story points for those two characters that appear to be in the process of being told.

So more so than a 'boot', this is pretty much the return of the first Legion cut-off from a certain point. Its essentially the writers doing what many asked by starting back up at Magic Wars, only doing it a few years earlier at Crisis, which makes more sense story-wise in a way.

I guess you’d have to consider everything from 1985 – 1995 to be a much larger equivalent to the story in Adventure where Superman visits their future. Another possible future.

Is it perfect. Certainly not. But it’s the best option I’ve seen since Zero Hour. I'm certainly pretty excited about it!

In a way its kind of the curse of modern age comics. Sure, I'm dying for Thor comics and have been so for years. But JMS on Thor?! Crap, now I'm screwed since I know he'll probably screw Thor up. Its the price we all need to be willing to pay--we need to be ready to let Meltzer play with the Legion, Jeph Loeb do Aquaman or Rob Liefield take care of Doom Patrol ( ). Some of us are willing I guess, some of us not so much (understandbly). Sometimes we get John's GL (excellent IMO), sometimes we get a dozen or so examples of recent Marvel or DC series in the last five years...

Cobie, with characters like Una and Sensor Girl around I don't think it's splitting off as early as you think or at all.

But we have a new Superman currently from New Earth. I have a feeling this Legion will be very similiar to the original but streamlined here or there.

I fully agree with Cobie.

If one wants to nit-pick, nothing after Adv #247 was "original" legion - costumes, names and powers changed. Supergirl is told that the Legion she meets was the cildren of the originals. The Legion winds up in a futuristic 21st century for a while in the early 60s. In the 70s, Ayla is younger than Garth. yadda, yadda, yadda.

To me, the origunal LSH (1958-1994) always had some continuity adjustments; so far, the ones we've seen don't seem that far out of line (even if some are head-scratchers).

It's also odd that someone distancing the L-Saga LSH from the "original" LSH was rationalizing Threeboot as a legit alternate version of the "original" Legion two years ago.

BTW, Jorge, I am also excited; I've expressed my excitement before the info you brought to the table; I'm just continuing the same cautious optimism I've had since the current JSA series began.

Exactly Kent. The "original" Legion has more contradictions than you can shake a stick at.

I think if Thom is schizo but we never knew b/c he took super-future meds won't crack the mythos in half.

Oh, I think it's pretty closely analogous to Superman. With the current Superman, you have a new continuity which incorporates elements of both pre-Crisis and Byrne-era continuity, but isn't really either of them. It certainly isn't the case that they literally brought back the Silver/Bronze age Superman continuity. Current Superman, for example, never worked on television.

Similarly, it seems to me pretty clear that they've created something that resembles the Silver/Bronze Age Legion continuity, but isn't literally it. At this point, it's really hard to figure out what's supposed to be clues as to continuity differences versus just bad editing/writing, but it seems to me they've dropped quite a few hints of things being different well before Crisis.

I never had problem with the continuity in the old continuity. Everything at some point got explained. I could perfectly live with the Pocket Universe explanation, for example, and never quite understood why Superboy had to be made into Valor some years later though there was no need for that continuity-wise...

I am very happy, very very glad that the old characters are returning, even in a somewhat classi-sized (I'm pretty sure this word does not exist) version. I don't care why Karate Kid suddenly is alive again (we know the true reason for it: He is the embodiment of the 80s but well, that's not a plot) - there will be a story that explains it. But after the group shot in JSA, the wonderful double-page in Justice #12, I'm quite sure that not only are the old guys returning, I am quite sure that many more people that just the Legion fandom will love them and buy the books they are featured in.

Long live the Legion, finally not just a catchphrase any more...

Now, I'm not reading any of this... stuff... so obviously I don't know (or, honestly, wish to know, really...) all the details...

But it's an alternate post-Crisis Legion. That makes it a Legion whose history was also "screwed up" by it's recreation from Infinite Crisis just as much as the post-Crisis Legion was "screwed up" by CoIE, if in a different way. Exactly how "original" that makes it is up to you.

One last little point in the same vein... if you're saying it's the same LoSH, no history changes as such, just untold stories never heard of... how could a 70s/80s Supergirl have been involved, if a Kara Zor-El only turned up in recent times and all the others are now retconned away? Since they needed to pluck a Kal-El from Earth-IC...

Those are very good points.
As far as i'm concerned, I understand that the new "original" Legion will be as "original" as the new Superman is, meaning that we'll get differences to their stories linked to the fact that this is a world that's post Infinite Crisis and things may be sligfhtly different.

Karate Kid seems to be unaware that Triplicate Girl is Una, which could indicate he comes form a different time period than the others... of course, with this costume, he should know her as Duo Damsel. At the same time, he knows that Sensor Girl is Jeckie... That seems to indicate a few differences...

But I don't mind. Even if the chronology is slightly modified, it means that the characters I grew up and loved are back, not the Archie imitation, and not the Mark Waid debacle...

Hm, I see this point that you and Eryk have made and that makes things quite a bit clearer on where people stand. I agree that the current Superman "is-essentially-but-isn't-truly-the-Earth-1 Superman". I'm cool with that to a degree, though I wish he was more like the Earth-1 Superman. In that same token, this Legion will be largely similar to that notion. Its basically the same for Batman too.

My first Legion comic was #202. It contained a Cockrum-drawn/Grell-inked new story with Colossal Boy and Shrinking Violet that reintroduced Erg-1/Wildfire -- whom I had never heard of. It has the Swan-era reprint of the Super-Stalag of Space. Different artists, different outlooks, for all practical purposes, different Legions, all crammed into a 50-cent 100-page spectacular. I was more delighted than confused. I was 10.

I look at the legions of Legions spread across the DCU today -- animated Legion, including their revisions for next season, Lightning saga Legion, WaK Legion, Mon-El in Action -- and frankly, except for having to spend $15.00 instead of $0.50 -- I am just as delighted and confused as I was 33 years ago.

I think I'm in an ever-shrinking minority, but I like the WaK Legion, and I also like the mystery of the relationships among the LS-Legion, pre-Crises Legions, and the WaK Legion. It is potentially the strongest Legion storyline in a generation.

I think a lot of the problem is that the notion of the "original" Legion is just so ambiguous to begin with.

For me (and this is what I really agreed with in Matthew's post), the original Legion is this thing that survived the Crisis while having a bit of its history altered, then having a bunch more of its history altered in v4, and was finally wiped out in End of an Era. If one is going to genuinely bring back the original Legion, one needs to explain how that team survived their "whiting out" in End of an Era. If you want to go on to retcon their history even more at that point, then I'm not incredibly happy with that (unless it's the kind of retcon that undoes previous retcons), but I'd still count it as the original team.

Assuming what appears to be the case, which is that the Lightning Saga Legion is from another one of the 52 earths, then the "origin" of this team is basically that it started out as a duplicate of the WaK Legion on another Earth, only its history was eaten by Mr. Mind until it resembled that of the pre-Crisis Legion. If someone wants to count that as bringing the original Legion back, then I suppose that's their choice. And if the continuity were literally identical to what it was in 1985, then even I might be inclined to say for all practical purposes that they "brought back the pre-Crisis Legion", and would probably be much more enthusiastic about it than I am. But it seems to me they've complicated things so much with all this cross-dimensional "New Earth" Superman stuff, plus whatever else it is that they've changed, that I'm not inclined to feel anything for this version simply because it's the "original" Legion in some really loose sense of the term.

Of course, if they write good stories featuring this version of the team (which imo they haven't thus far), I'm certain my view of it will change. But I can't ever imagine considering it anything more than a simulacrum of the "original" Legion.

More random speculative thoughts, this time probably spurred on by the human parainfluenza virus I'm trying to get out of my system:

--what if Superman is persona non grata because the LS Legion HAS gone looking for other Kal-Els, and ended up with Superboy Prime?

--what if the LS Legion is responsible for wiping out the history of Superboy? Maybe New Earth had a Superboy, and the Legion wiped out that knowledge for some reason, but the memories are starting to leak back?

--what if the LS Legion hooked up with New Earth Supes to PREVENT a Superboy? Maybe all Superboys are destined to end up like Prime, too powerful, all alone, whatever? The LS Legion makes it their mission to mentor young Clarks so they end up as heroes?

--the LS Legion can time/dimension hop with relative ease, while the New Earth Legion can't. Is their Brainy smarter? Or can they do this because they have outside help? Like a captive Flash? Or a Pet Monitor?

So to anybody who is reading Countdown: How do we have to understand the disclosure of the identity Karate Kids mysterious Legion friend after the end of the Lightning Saga? Any feelings? I for my part feel totally confused, but as long as it's the "classic Legion" confusing me, I will be going along...

I went to Wizard online to see if they had sketches. They didn't have Dawnstar but they did have Frank's Supes and it appears the main villain.

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Darkseid</span></span>

Gary Frank\'s sketches SPOILERS

Some people have commented his Superman is very Curt Swan. I agree.

No comments on the Countdown storyline here? It IS Lightning Saga Legion in action after all... I don't dare to say who it was that Karate Kid met because I don't know how to include a spoiler here - that is, how to hide a spoiler - but hey, does nobody feel like discussing this?

There was a thread...somewhere about Legion members appearing in other titles. I can't find it? I'm I still half asleep?

Chemical King --

Check out page 46 of this thread for the discussion you're looking for.

Also, to post a spoiler, click on "Full Reply Form." You should see a menu called Instant UBB Code. The "Spoiler" option is in the fourth column.

Hi,fellow Legionworlders...been a while since I've been this forum...I miss being here.
I just got ahold of "The Lightning Saga" recently... tell me if it's really true... the REAL Legion is really comming back?
I've put up with the the "current" Legion, being a LSH fan, but my FAVORITE Legion??? returning??? it's too good to be true...one question though? How would Supergirl fit into this?

Based on how Johns and Meltzer wrote 'The Lightning Saga', it's not clear to me that this Legion is meant to be exactly the original Legion. Although clearly they're a variation on the original Legion. And DC does seem to have some plans for them, but it's anyone's guess how that's going to turn out.

Best I can figure, Supergirl doesn't fit into it at all.

Anyone notice that the Legions in Booster Gold?

A small panel just past the middle page that featured the three founders and Clark (they look SO young!)and B5 in the purple jumpsuit on the last page.
Well, they could be the same Legion from different eras...just which Brainiac lost that flight ring anyway?

Over here Art.

Yeah.
With so many convoluted Time Stream stories going on it makes perfect sense to have a few different versions of a futuristic super-team getting mixed up in the works. I'm lovin' it. I've always loved sci-fi super-hero stories and we're getting plenty.

I don't know why or who but somebody at DC finally discovered the wealth of material in the Legion mythos and wants to take advantage of it. I for one am all for it. We'll get some confusing things here and there but it'll all shake out.

I'm hoping for an All-Star Legion sometime late next year.

Um, anyone see the latest Action cover 859??? I kinda like it but I kinda don't. Lightning Lad looks the best by far. The others? eh. Saturn Girl looks OK...Cosmic Boy...I question. Don't hate it though...it can grow on me. His haircut on the other hand???!

Horrible!!!!

They look worse than the Giffen Legion. Lightning Lad looks effeminate and Saturn Girl looks butch. Cos looks like the evil Cosmic King.

Come to think of it -- maybe this is an updated version of the LSV. Well, we can hope!

You think that Kubert cover is suppossed to be the Legion of the 90's? What if the Legion continued and got mirred in all that dark/violent low quality 90's? (Cause Superman wasn't a member anymore)

well, from the bits of info we got about this storyline, it just could be the case...

Didn't like that cover either

Actually, you have a good point - Kubert representing 90s comics (he DID do X-Men back then) in its worst, not cause he's a bad artist - he isn't - but because comic books back then mostly told lousy stories and went nowhere. I loved the good "dark and gritty" stories like Watchmen, DK returns or 5YL, but when the Image Age struck, and comic books like the Titans and X-Men tried to follow, many books went downhill.

So IF there would have been no 5YL, but a regular continuation of the Baxter series, maybe we would have gotten a Legion which would have looked like this alternate Kubert cover...

But: Gary Frank is the regular artist now on Action, so I still hope the REGULAR cover will look less like an X-Legion.

Little bit of Legion info from the Toronto comic book convention (as per CBR... funny how thgis is a major convention and it's not covered "live")

"Dini says he will remain with “Countdown” as head writer until it ends and with “Detective Comics” until at least the end of 2008. He also answered a question from the floor regarding the three versions of the Legion of the Superheroes currently running side by side in DCU with the simple response: “Keep reading ‘Countdown.'”"

Geoff Johns Interview: \'Original\' Legion/Lightning Saga Legion in Action

You can see he truly sees this as the original Leigon cut off right after Crisis (probably with things explaining inconsistencies like Karate Kid still being alive).

Presumbly, Crisis itself is responsible for creating an alternate timeline going forward, much like the classic Adventure story is a possible alternate timeline (from John's POV), but I would think we would know for sure from the story.

Yay! Villains!

Well, I'm looking forward to that story in Action Comics.

But am I being overly sensitive if I'm picking up a vibe from that article that suggests there haven't been any Legion comics at all in the last 20 years?

Hm, I wouldn't say it comes off as that harsh, but it does kind of leave open the question: "What about the Legion from Crisis to Zero Hour?"

So, just from perusing the John's interview and without reading the story yet, it would suggest there are these Legions:
(1.A) Classic Legion #1 - Adventure to Crisis - lost until Lightning Saga (aka "The Lightning Saga Legion")

(1.B) Classic Legion #2 - Adventure to Zero Hour - lost since Zero Hour, including SW6 Legionnaires

(2) Reboot Legion

(3) Threeboot WaK Legion

(4) Cartoon Legion

This, of course, doesn't include the alternate Adult Legion future of Adventure, the various Elseworlds Legions (i.e. Superboy's Legion), etc., but I'm just trying to figure out where DC is going with this.

PS - I find Tromium's notion that the Reboot Legion is the post-crisis/pre-IC DC Earth that eventually leads to Kingdom Come (now designated Earth-22). It kind of makes it easier to figure out.

No go (well, let me rephrase that - no-go if they're sane). Post-ZH Legion diverges from the DCU-as-we-saw-it during OWAW because of Veridium and Computo - that's essential to the whole DnA run, OWAW must happen, otherwise everything from their very first issue (Lgs #78) to Legion #25 involves Robotica in the plot (arguably Legion #32, the last time we see Babbage) falls apart. No Robotica means no distress signal to draw Cos, Monstress, Apparition and Brainiac 5.1 away from Earth when the Blight attacks. Which means XS and Saturn Girl don't get away, which means the Blight nuke the galaxy.

Robotica needs Computo, and Computo needs Veridium's responsometer and Imperiex to match that up with a mother box again. (I treat the flashforward in JSA #51 with a post-ZHalike LSH, but with Blok, an unfamiliar HQ and Adventure-era-style Mordru, as the post-ZH hypertimeline where Computo didn't get put back together, and so things unfold differently from how we saw them in LSH #0 and on)

And, of course, Wesley Dodds was killed off in JSA SF&O #1, long before OWAW, and needs to survive to the opening of Kingdom Come.

PS: "Earth-22" can't accomodate The Kingdom...

What the SPROCK are you guys talking about???

Reboot: Valiant effort, but DC has ignored greater continuity violations than that. They'll do what they want to do...

Jillikers!!

Its more confusing than I appreciated. So...can *you* find a way to make this all strait for me, Boot? Or is it impossible to figure out a coherent split in timelines?

How come Kingcome Come (other than Wesley Dodds) not work with OWAW (which you'll have to forgive me, I've blocked out of my memory banks).

Oh, a'DUH. I'm treating any post-IC postbootalike as just that - an entirely separate version that happens to share surface similarities.

Cobalt - give me a few minutes, I'll need a diagram...

I throw a lot of stuff against the wall I don't remember half the things I say, but I guess it's possible Johns will do just that seeing he's getting ready to reintroduce KC and (apparently) the reboot Legion around the same time. He's not loathe to push square pegs into round holes, which is exactly what he's doing now with the LS Legion.

But they wouldn't be the original reboot Legion any more than the LS Legion is the original pre-Crisis Legion.

I've made it no secret I'm fast becoming irritated with Geoff Johns and his "original" malarky, but on the plus side, it looks like three Legion comics (and the cartoon) running simultaneously for 5-6 months. That's what I call saturation marketing. If this push doesn't work, nothing will.

I make it eight or nine timelines (which isn't necessarily complete, I may have missed something, and I'm counting the future Thom seen in Starman #79-80 [because of Dreamer's recurring vision of a "gravesite" for Thom] and the Omega Point (End of Time) seen at the end of Legion #14 as being on the central Green Line,).

First, the diagram:



Most of which is self-explanatory.

However, you'll notice Kingdom Come isn't on that list. That's because I checked here first, including looking at the bigger version of the image. We're very definitely in alternate timeline with that lineup (obviously, particularly with Kon & Mae there), so the KC-Legion isn't the post-ZH Legion and shouldn't be treated as such.

But the key figure is between Shadow Lass (apparently referred to as such in the notes, although not on that page) and Kinetix. Princess Projectra - not Sensor. That pegs the divergence point for Kingdom Come way, WAY back, before Superman's, hell before the *JSA*'s debuts. Like, millions of years man!

Highly impressive and entertaining! Thanks 'Boot!

I like how you've kind of made sense of all that for me. I have to reread JSA #51 also, since I hardly remember anything from that story.

Also, Tromium's thought that John's saying the Lightning Saga Legion : Preboot Legion :: KC Legion : Reboot Legion is well taken.

That diagram confuses and frightens me. I've read a lot of those comics - the Legion titles anyway - and I have no idea what I am supposed to understand about them from this diagram.

This, unfortunately, is how I view it. Johns will take what he wants to work with and forget the rest, all in favor of the continuity-of-the-month. I'd be surprised if we reach the Legion's 55th anniversary before this one is screwed up and tossed out.

Branching timelines (diagram NOT to scale ). Like that one - written by DnA - from the Young Justice OWAW special where M'On's taken on the Superman costume and Brainiac 5's merged with Brainiac 13, as how things would happen if OWAW ended a different way.

Rumours there was no multiverse before Infinite Crisis are, after all, greatly exaggerated.

Bit like how Johns screwed up Superboy and Impulse by pretending all their character development never happened, so he could do it over in a more irritating way...

I say again - Oh, a'DUH!

Or they'll screw it up completely and Kingdom Come will be the future that leads to the Lightning Saga Legion. Remember where Thom ended up before the JSA.


Also in the LSV story in Superman/Batman the future Superman in the Kingdom Come costume reverted to the guy at the end of "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" when the timeline was adjusted. And isn't that story the first modern appearance of a the original LSH? I seem to remember a Phantom Girl/Phantom Lady punch up.

So lets make it that every time a writer or editor screws up that guy at the end of "Whatever Happened... " loses his happy ending and he switches to his alternate self having to live in that unhappy future where the Joker killed Lois. He then has to find someone to help him fix time so he can get back.

Yeah, I got that it was branching timelines... I guess it'd make more sense if I was more (by which I mean 'at all') familiar with OWAW... I presume its connection to Legion #13 has to do with Warworld? Why is 'For No Better Reason' an alternate timeline to the Titans/Legion Special?

Actually, no (even if Aquaman & Kyle's costuming is mutually exclusive). It's Computo's re-origin. Imperiex reassembled him during OWAW, upon which he promptly scooted as far and as fast as he could in case someone took him apart again and watched as the Metallo Virus & stuff happened - but Veridium made it through OWAW in the "main" timeline.

That's one I'll have to look up later. I've got it down in my notes as being different, due to relative time, and I've got double asterisks against Jarth and Kon, but I didn't detail that one.

after reading Johns comments about the Superman/LSH storyline and the disscusions here, I have dropped LSH from my pull list.


alternate time lines, and the final crisis story line(at least until its sequel the Absolute Final Crisis comes out), things are going to reboot, soft boot, or least a boot to the butt of new folks like myself.

it's sad what DC has done and is doing to the LSH. it's a great concept, but DC,like Procrustes did his lodgers, has stretched and shortened LSH to fit the whim of editors.

Unfortunately, that's pretty much the story of the whole DCU these days.

Johns description of the upcoming Action storyline sounds interesting. It does sound like a new take on the Legion rather than a return to "the original". But, you know what, that is fine with me. I'm not sure that "original" is a concept that is even definable with regards to the Legion. It certainly isn't possible to print anything that everyone would agree is the original.

I remember a letter in the one of the early 5YL issues in which the writer encouraged TMK "to put reality in a blender and turn it on to puree", or something like that. In essence, that is exactly what happened, even though it wasn't TMK who did it. We are now in the "post puree" era of the Legion.

That means we have two options. We can rebuild again, or abandon the Legion and move on. The fact that everyone is tired of rebuilding really doesn't matter, or change the fact that rebuilding is again necessary.

This rebuilding imagines the Legion as an instumental and essential part of Superman growing up. That is certainly not what the "original" Legion was meant to be. Some may argue that it is what it evolved into. It was never explicitily expressed as such, though, and you would have to toss out a lot of pre Legion Superboy continuity to make the case.

For bizarre legal reasons, Superboy isn't even available. That alone makes a return to the "original" impossible. I would argue that even if it were possible, it wouldn't be desirable. I don't want decades worth of continuity baggage. We all have to draw our own lines as to how much of a loss of continuity is accepatable, but we better face the fact that a good amount will be lost in any rebuilding process.

Reboot's timeline makes my head hurt. I sure don't need to connect all those dots to enjoy a good Legion story. 5YL is my favorite Legion era. That doesn't mean I need it to be "in continuity" to be satisified. I have the back issues and will go back and read them whenever I feel the need to re-expereince that time. I would rather do that then spend my time trying to find a way to make them fit into the current reality.

So, let's rebuild with the Legion as an essential part of Superman's youth. It's not a bad place to start.

I don't like either of those options. I guess "rebuild again" but not from the ground up like we've done the last two times. Rebuild it to make it look similiar to a Legion most people remember and love. And I know there is an ongoing debate about what that it is. But in my mind there is no debate.

A laudable sentiment. I'll be happy to comply when DC stops lying to fans about the "original Legion".

As for getting behind what DC is rebuilding, there's obviously more than one edifice to support. The new artist of the regular monthly Legion book is a member of this board, and the "big announcement" of the next writer is expected within two weeks. That means they're aggressively promoting not one but *two* official Legions -- the supposedly original team lacking a plausible history and the 3boot team with almost no documented history.

Then they throw in a third, rebooted reboot team into the pot and stir it all up into one sloppy mess that'll be on slow-cook until late 2008.

DC is yanking our chains for the zillionth time, this time using their in-house 'fixer-upper" Geoff Johns -- a writer without an ounce of credibility as a Legion creator. Let him diddle all he wants with Hal Jordan, Booster Gold and the JSA, but the Legion needs more than that.

It seems like a heck of a way to run a railroad to me, too, but I'm trying to focus on what we're going to get out of it. It might be really good! (Short-term and/or long-term.) Wouldn't be the first time an asinine editorial decision has resulted in good comics, or even good Legion comics.

As long as Meltzer is of the titles... his stuff always confuses me, like his current JLA. I hate it when I have to read a chapter ten times and still am left wondering what is happening...

At least we don't have to worry about Janette Kahn this time around.
"It's too confusing" indeed.

..witch..

A variant cover was just announced for Action #858, the first issue in the Legion arc. That makes two with the previously announced one for #859. Wanna bet they do it for the entire arc?

And unfortunately they're saying the Frank cover, the one I would want, is the variant.

Frank is actually doing both covers for #858.

So after reading five issues of Countdown in a row, most of them starring Karate Kid and Luornu, my question is...

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Why is Karate Kid suddenly dying? Who told him so?</span></span>

Was it off-panel, or was it just a new information to add to the mystery why Karate Kid is in the 20th century at all!?

As always in this very chaotic DC universe, I am just wondering if I have missed something - or if I am supposed to be confused...

Given the costumes and history of the other "Lightning Legionnaires", perhaps the real question should be:

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Why is he alive?</span></span>

You've nailed it Mario.
The mysterious shadow in the bright shiny time thingy and that thing with Projectra seem to point to him being one of those "time anomalies" they're going on about in the Countdown stuff.

Why is Val alive?

indeed

Indeed. But my question was referring to that part of the story that we have actually been seeing - rather like, "have I missed something" or was it just some new info?

Ah, that's good, I'd just glanced at the article. Glad he's doing the regular cover for #859 also.

Yeah. We've ALL missed something. KK is a mystery to us at this point. Might Nemisis Kid show up at some point so they can repeat the epic struggle that led to both their deaths?

..and Una..what happened to her second body? Do we know that yet?

We might as well assume that the Time Trapper killed her until we hear differently.

Wow. The Trapper. You may have hit on another mystery here. Where's he going to fit into all this?..or is he? We have some time traveling villians shown in The Lightning Saga and we haven't heard a thing about that creep. Perhaps we'll see the return of the Glorith the Time Trapper/Mordru the Galactic Conqueror alliance instead?

I'm also wondering what Una's personal story is going to have in the way of impact on the upcoming tale. Whether it was the Trapper or another one of Brainiac's wacky (read: murderous) creations might make some kind of pivotal plotting element. Whatever though, I'm fairly certain their stories are going to be crucial to this "Three Worlds" thingy.

You know, so far we've been speculating about the possibilities of the Three Legions but nobody's given much thought to which villians might belong in a big wide ranging LSH DCvers summer crossover story.

The Trapper took on the whole DC Universe not all that long ago. He definitely ought to be on the shortlist.

The Time Trapper would make sense but so does Darkseid since the New Gods are a pivotal part of this also.

The Time Trapper made a one panel appearance recently in Brave & Bold #6 in the Book of Destiny.

I dunno. In Supergirl #21 (the current issue, written by Legion scribe, Tony Bedard), Una says her Legion name is Triplicate Girl. Now, that's in direct contradiction to the Duo Damsel statue in Superman's Fortess, but Karate Kid did address her as Triplicate Girl once before in Countdown.

At this stage, though I'm pretty sure Una is just one girl, I have no idea how many bodies Lighting Saga Luornu actually has -- and I suspect DC intends it to be all confusing and mysterious.

That might've been Destiny (brother to Dream).

You know I am wondering if Una is just a name that they give themselves/are given by others to help differentiate between the three bodies Trip splits into. Sort of like a Triad Orange, Triad Neutral etc.

So maybe out there, we have a Dos and a Tres. Or perhaps an Un, Deux and Trois exist or some version of these numerical names.

After all just because we have not seen the other bodies don’t mean they aren’t there.

Oooo... good point Far.

I always wondered about that. Suppose one of Duo Damsel's bodies went back in time with a team and left her "sister" in the future. While not being able to replicate would effectively negate her "power" I wonder would there be any other advantages to the tactic?

I have no idea who Destiny or Dream are, but I'm sure you're probably right - after all, it was the Book of Destiny.

Go to your next comic book shop and read your Sandman, Kid Quislet It's essential comic book art - I know of nobody who didn't like it...

Well, now you know of one person who didn't like it -- ME!

I agree with CK. I think they're "essential" to every comic reader's education.

Still, it isn't the art (on Sandman) that I think is so essential, though in it's way it's phenomenal too and helped pave the way for a looser, darker type of comic book art to gain mainstream acceptability. The stories are such high quality that I really believe they're on the level of "The Watchmen", or the original serialized run of the first year of "Marvelman" (later Miracleman), maybe even better than the first couple of years of "The Elementals" by Willingham.
Outstanding writing.

A really cool read too.

Latest issue of Action? Any Legion? Any Supergirls?

This arc of Action Comics is set on Bizarro world. So, no Supergirls or Legion. Next arc, I think.

If the Lightning Saga Legion is from a timeline that is simular to one that continued on from the Baxter era than Una was down to just one body. She lost the first to Computo all those years ago and then the 2nd in their last battle with the Time Trapper.
Thats the way I have interpretted the apperances of the Lightning Sage Legion anyway. Their history is close to the classic Legion up until the end of the Baxter series but not into the 5 Years Latter Legion. It changes then. I could be wrong.

In the latest issue of Supergirl (22 this week) Kara reveals 3-boot Brainy wiped her memory before giving her a one-way ticket home.
LSaga Val and Una suggest that they have never met Supergirl before last issue.

So either they are lying or the pre-crisis Supergirl has been erased from the Legion's history. So is a Legion without Brainy building a robot in his sleep an original Legion? Perhaps Laurel took her place, perhaps in the Lightning Saga version of the robot story, Brainy was pining for Laurel when she joined the Convent because she rejected the disco revival of 2976. I might join a monastery too if the alternative was a white leisure suit.

Upon review I actually like my version better than the version in the archive. And so Squealer led the sheep to the field and they came back singing a new song, "Archives Good, Retcon Bahhhter."

Yes, but the battle in which the Trapper killed one of Duo Damsel's bodies was prompted by the death of the pocket-universe Superboy. So we're not quite out of the woods yet.

I doubt anyone in the universe(s) clearly remembers Earth 1 Kara, but I don't trust anything the LSaga Legionnaires remember or don't remember. If it's been mentioned it once, it's been mentioned ten times -- time traveling screws with your head. I imagine the memory lapses are even worse when you've been dead for a while and/or have an OMAC virus.

I wouldn't be surprised if LSaga Brainy had some vestigal memories of Earth 1 Kara, though.

As for Una -- here's the new wacky theory of the week -- she's the first dead Triplicate Girl (a name she's been called more than once), whose killing was replayed in the Lightning Saga. Say, she was punched back to life during Infinite Crisis and has yet to fully reintegrate with Duo Damsel. I figure if Karate Kid was granted a cosmic permit to rise from the dead, why not her, too?

Whatever the twist (there has to be one!), I'm wagering there's more than one LSaga Luornu, and most or all of the Time Trapper stuff is a wash.

Good call Trom. Una is the dead one. KK already said the founders saved him or brought him back or something. Wouldn't mind seeing Ferro Lad either.

Trom,
I proposed the same Una theory last month in the Countdown thread. Great minds must think alike!!

Wonky as it may be, the Una theory fits thematically, at least. Whether it's the resurrection of Lightning Lad, the rescue of a dead(?) Flash, Karate Kid's return from the grave, the recurring theme of the Lightning Saga Legion is coming back from the dead -- literally and figuratively.

So, yeah, possibly more undead stuff to come, but Ferro Lad will probably be Shooter's call.

P.S. Sorry I overlooked that one, Omni Craig. Belated credit where credit is due.

No problem Tromium, I'm just glad someone else has the same theory... I don't feel like such a crackpot for thinking it.

And you gave a great argument for her return to life up there (as far as life & death goes in the land of comics anyway)!!!

OK, just finished reading the Lightning Saga JLA/JSA issues. It was fantastic seeing that Legion again, even though it's by no means certain it's not an alternate Legion. From the JLA/JSA's point of view this "Legion" was tantamount to "first contact" with another "universe" and the writing did give me that "feel" and I loved the story. And the art was gorgeous.

It left many questions unanswered, but I have a question for you, people. Maybe it's been answered somewhere before but I can't find any reference about it. I hope it won't sound too silly.
Why did Sensor Girl use the original Triplicate Girl in her illusion, thus tipping Superman off that everything was in fact an illusion? Considering that what the Legionnaires wanted was some more time, this unexplainable "mistake" by Projectra actually jeopardized their mission.
If she had used the older "80s" Duo Damsel Superman wouldn't have realised it was an illusion when he did. Maybe Projectra did this on purpose but I can't imagine why. Am I missing something here? Can someone explain this, pls?

Jeckie was still in a trance when she created the TG illusion. It must have come from her subconscious.

Ah, I see. That sounds logical. Thank you, Tromium.

It's kind of weird she'd pick something from before she was actually a member of the Legion as well.

Of course, the real reason that scene was picked was for the nostalgia factor it would have with fans rather than whether it made any sense within the context of the story.

Well, if I remember correctly all Legionnaires are required to read/view past adventures as part of their education. Jeckie had probably seen the death of Triplicate Girl's body in the Legion files. Even if there was no "video footage" of it, reading about it in detail would have created a fair approximation of images in her subconscious that she could use later in the illusion.

In the latest issue of Countdown?

AYYEEEIII!!!!

God, it had been a while since I had heard a "legion" scream... Like 20 years?

It felt good anyway.

I like KK on the cover. He looked pretty cool. (Countdown)

I'll ask again, I'm so confused: When exactly was it established that KK was suffering from this virus? I read all of Countdown until now, and the fact was suddenly just there... did I miss it or was it off-panel or what is going on here????

Adding to the Una theory, she always refers to her larger self as "triplicate Girl," not "Duo Damsel" as she theoratically would be in an 80s-ish LSH. Wasn't she DD in Super's gallery in JLA? I don't have those issues with me these days.

In Supergirl #22, Una verifies she's Triplicate Girl and her two other selves are in the 31st century.

(She didn't say which sister she was, though.)

New Newsarama interview with Johns up regarding this arc.

about time that Shadow Lass and Night Girl gets to team up as it should always have been way back in Grell era! Yeah!!!!

Polar Boy and Blok - can't wait to see them by Gary Frank! definitely a bonus thumb up!

I hope it's better than the last Shadow Lass/Night Girl teamup. If you don't remember that one, you're lucky.

oh yeah I remember that one - S/LSH #213. Yeah, Geoff said that 'BAD ASS Night Girl..." so I was like whoa allright about time as it should be better than that one way back in Grell time.

Actually it was in #212. And what was wrong with it? It was just an 8 page back-up story. The only thing I didn't like was Night Girl's "costume".

There's been one since then. As I say, you're lucky.

Blok?! Polar Boy?! Shadow Lass/Night Girl?! I've died and gone to heaven!

Everybody? Almost everybody? Oh, God, I'm having shivers down my spine and it's not because it's cold. I think I've died and gone to heaven like Ultra Jorge...

Geoff Johns gives another interview at IGN , and makes a clearer statement about what continuity the Lightning Saga/Action Legion includes.

Johns calls Waid/Shooter Legion the "modern day version", which again begs the question why the modern day Superman has a past with the unmodern Legion of Earth 1 -- or what's passing for it in this story. The more I read about this arc, the more convinced I am of its dishonest and manipulative intent, and dread it all the more.

Why is it dishonest and manipulative to bring back all that "lost" continuity along with the possibility of new stories - possibly a new title? - that will honor this vast part of Legion history which includes everything that made the Legion great in the past?

Otoh, I don't exactly like the phrase "up through Crisis on Infinite Earths" because it seems to suggest that everything that happened after CoIE will be "out of continuity/never happened" which also suggests that another fairly vast part of Legion history will "not have happened".

This latter part may not be my favorite Legion era(s) but"doing away" with it is somehow like cheating all the fans who love that/those eras.

I'm ecstatic with the prospect of seeing "that" Legion, the one I grew up with, be a living part of the DCU again, more than ecstatic really, but I don't feel comfortable at all with eliminating other people's favorite Legion eras (which had their good points, and they ARE the Legion anyway).

Let's hope that what with multiple versions of the Legion floating around, every Legion era will be honored in one way or another.

Reading the above Johns statement makes me.... happy.

Oh my, to get all those stories back...

Those stories up to COIE (which is way into the baxter series, if I recall correctly) are part of my childhood, loved those when I grew up, painted my Playmobil toys in Legion colours, read the few books that were translated into German over and over and over again. To bring them back after ruthlessly erasing all of them 14 years ago gives me a lot of satisfaction, and even though my ALSO beloved 5YL era has to go, I'll gladly trade that one for the basis of Legion of Super-Heroes returning to the DCU. KUDOS! (still not believing it until I see if, of course )

I tried to read the Johns interviews, but I hardly can so so cause I'm so excited I stop reading it in the right order and start combing through it, trying to find important key words... thus eliminating the chance of getting all the information, but hey, I'm a fan, so sue me

Funny, that was my reaction as well. Can't wait. And I am also a fan of the 5YL era, but like you, I'm OK to see it go if we get to see something like the Levitz Legion. Even if it has to be a modified version. If we are being manipulated, well, it's OK with me.

I'm also super excited.

I hope Johns uses some of the post crisis Levitz and 5YL stuff. Nothing major but a nod here or there.

The Sensor Girl/Projectra becoming leader stuff. The Universo & Starfinger arcs & possibly the Magic Wars.

The Time Trapper battle gets hairy cause that is revenge for killing Superboy. But that can be tweaked. Laurel Kent as a Manhunter obviously would not be around. But Laurel Kent will be!

IGN Article

The original non-crack whore Supergirl was in Crisis and LSH #300, plus a few SLSH issues (as was Insect Queen and Pete Ross). Does this mean all of those stories are still intact?

I hope so Gary I hope so. I know they revealed the 3rd kryptonian to be some obscure character (SPOILER don't want to ruin it for people) but I was really hoping to it would be Kara.

I still think it might be and Kurt Busiek is trying keep it a secret. What use is that obscure character when you have the ability to bring back Kara.

The figure on the cover for Superman #669 certainly looks female, at any rate. But I don't know anything about this "3rd Kryptonian thing; I only heard about it yesterday.

So Adv. #300 features a teenage convict Lex Luthor being visited by Superboy, and then building an Adult Robot version of himself to send to the future and fight the Legion. I'll be absolutely shocked if all of that is "in-continuity" (except maybe in some vague sense in which Batman of Earth-2 is now "in-continuity" or whatever).

Taken from a CBR article focusing on the JSA. I hope it's a Legion title. I would love to see three Legion titles!

If I were a religious person I'd say "I'm praying for it".

I saw an interview recently with Scott Kolins and he is DC exclusive again. He said he and Geoff are working on a project together. Makes you wonder...

Craig, don't even joke around like that! That's a bitter sweet dilemna! I'm not a huge Kolins fan.

Scott Kolins? Isn't that one of those no-name pinch hitter /artists?

Yeah if they want a book to fail, they improve the chances by assigning it to such a low-budget artist...

I really hope that should there be a LS-Legion book, that they actually give it to an decent artist (not to dream about Pérez or Frank) cause, let's face it: The art is still like the calling card of a book. If it looks lousy, nobody will pick it up no matter how good the stuff is written. But if a great cover kind of jumps at you from the shelves... you'll pick it up even if you don't care about the content that much.

Probably the only way to get more new readers to jump on the "continuity challenged" Legion wagon is by luring them in with the art...

Scott Kolins is the guy who drew the messed-up Timber Wolf cover for the most recent issue of S&LSH. If that cover is representative, my preference would be not to have to look at his work ever again.

Oh no he did do that new Legion cover. Now I'm getting paranoid. I think Kolins is a decent artist and a nice guy. I think Geoff like working with him (Flash). But unless it's a mini or a fill in I'm really not that interested.

Sure there are lots of people that love his work but lots of people that hate his work as well. I don't know if you want a love/hate guy to jump start a series. ohwell my Kolins rant is over.

Ugh, Johns/Kolins would be a nightmare come true. The only reason I'm giving this speculation any credence at all is DC's mystifying decision to replace Dennis' cover with Kolins'. I pray they weren't trying to tell us something.

Oh, I might buy a single issue for a great cover, but if the story stinks, I won't buy the next issue. You know, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

If it's the Legion I'll buy it anyway and then gripe about it for months, but really it'd be a nightmare come true if a new title has bad art from the first issue...

I liked Kolins on the Flash, I actually prefered his art to Porter's, however, I can't see him doing a team book. His art never struck me as being able to handle lots of people at once, he did great cities and placing individuals in them, but I couldn't see him doing a story where 10 people are all fighting at once and being able to keep track of them.

Still, I like his art and wouldn't mind seeing him and Geoff working together on an individual title, but just don't see it for a team book (of course there aren't that many artists that I actually see doing a team book anyways)

They just have to get Pérez, who loves team books and did every one of them out on the market - except for the Legion, which ironically was his favorite comic book when he was young.

So? Any further questions? Give him the money he's asking for, get him of Brave and the Bold and let him do his magic - and we have a winner book in our hands...

Steve Lightle also loves the Legion and has expressed his desire to be the artist on the book many times. His art was and is fantastic!
Considering there are few good artists who want to draw a comic with a gazillion characters are, it doesn't make sense NOT giving it to artists who want to do it and have proven their previous runs on the Legion were successful and loved. Like Perez (of course) or Lightle.

While I was a huge fan of Perez back in the Teen Titans day, his more recent stuff doesn't work for me as well. I don't know if he's changed artistically, or my tastes have. Steve Lightle, on the other hand, drew some great Legion.

Maybe it's because I first saw Lightle's art on the Legion, and I've mentally pigeon-holed Perez as 'the Titans artist' and can't adjust to his work on other titles (like the Avengers, which didn't look quite right under his pen, IMO).

Oh really loved his Avengers stuff, Set, so I have to disagree. But I can understand your feelings because I was not overly happy with his recent work on "BatB". I thought it might have been the Inker.

Lightle was very good in his glory Legion days as well, though i believe he did far less issues than you would think back then. It was LaRoque who was on board for most of the Baxter run. I especially liked Lightles cover art!

Yes, LaRoque and Lightle were the greatest in the Baxter series. Lightle though is a Legion mega-fan and that's why he even drew very distinct facial characteristics for every Legionnaire. I couldn't believe that he went to all this "trouble"! And his last Legion issue - the one featuring Umbra in the DnA run - shows that he's stil "got it".

Anyways, there may very well be a new artist out there who'll be the next <add favorite Legion artist name>.

Considering this f***ed up cover, you really have to wonder why DC would go to the trouble and make this "artist" go DC-exclusive......

He reminds me of all those forgotten 90s Marvel artists like Bill Jaaska (New Titans) whose art was so horrible to behold, it was an insult to the fans to even publish this stuff. Back then, you got the feeling that TPTB just did not care about the fans. I do not want to live through another example of that.

Scott Kolins is one of the best artists in the industry. I think you guys are being hypercritical for no reason. I looked at cover you've been talking about, and that looks nothing like Kolins' art. Are you sure he did that cover? (EDIT: Nevermind, I see his name there. It still doesn't look like his usual art... but I do like it better than the Calero covers)

And if you don't think Kolins can do large action scenes, you should check out the Flash: Crossfire trade.

Anyway, I'm hoping that one of those projects Geoff is working on is the "Legion of Three Worlds" story. That would be fun and there have been hints that we'll see it next year. And is it too much to hope that that is the project Perez is leaving Brave and the Bold for (after #12)?

I never thought Jaaska's work was that bad; just bland. You know, it was just there . Nothing about it ever jumped out at you.

Newsarama has an interview with new Action artist Gary Frank .

Besides a covershot, it's got sketches of 3 Legion ladies too!!

Had a look at that. The artwork is lovely. But Shadow Lass looks more like a porn star than a super heroine! I know her costumes have traditionally been on the skimpy side but this is ridiculous. She's virtually naked! And those shoes with those 6 inch heels? Again, it looks like something a woman on a porn website would wear. Not appropriate.

Not because I'm prudish about sex, but I do object to women being objectified.

The other sketches are better. But why do Lydda and Ayla both have to have heels? Ayla in particular has always struck me as a sensible shoes kind of girl, but that's just me!

Someone really ought to tell Gary Frank that *gasp* women's shoes with flat heels *do* exist!

Artists that put all women characters in high heels piss me off. Long standing peeve of mine. Not all women like or want to wear heels dammit!

I totally agree that high-heeled boots are inappropriate for a variety of reasons. Objectification issues aside, I also think that it would be very hard to run and fight in high-heeled boots, too.

Who needs to run when you have a Legion Flight Ring?

For that matter, who needs to push the tush when you have a Legion Flight Ring? Why do any of them walk? Are there no-flight rules inside the clubhouse? Tenz would just have so much fun with a flight ring.

So, a scan of this terrible cover?

I loved Kollins' work on Flash. His Gorrila Grod issue stands as one of my all time favorites. I've left that issue on the night stand and stared at that art for days.


on another note, a story behind Shady's crotch armor I think is warranted. Something else else, maybe like an achilles "heal" kind of story from ancient Talak.


time "sphere?"

[EDIT: Bri, there's a locally hosted, non-bandwidth stealing copy of this already posted here . ]

While high heels on superheroines are impractical I don't believe that high heels define any kind of "obejctification" of women, any more than not drawing "anatomically correct" superheroes in tights is any kind of "castration".

Skimpy outfits may be appropriate for some heroines and not appropriate for others, imho. And showing some skin does not also make them porn stars, any more than a skimpy decorative high fashion swimsuit makes a woman "immoral".

I understand Infectious Drura's reservations on the matter, but I don't think they apply here.
What a person wears doesn't necessarily say anything about their morality or character or ideas unless that person explicitly makes all of the above known through words, actions and motives.
In porn sites the "motive" of wearing high heels and skimpy outfits - or lack thereof - is quite different than a superheroine's 1000 years in the future.

After all, if a person from 1907 saw a girl wearing jeans and a t-shirt he/she might very well consider that clothing extremely inappropriate.
While concerns for the objectification of women, sexual or otherwise are most certainly valid even today, I believe the time has passed when women showed their need for emancipation through what they wore. That was a valid way of "protest" in past decades, but I don't believe it says much today.

I think the costumes are lovely and modern and visually pleasing, artistically speaking. I prefer complex designs on costumes - I'm interested in futuristic costume design - so I wouldn't like to see *all* Legion ladies wearing futuristic style swimsuits - or high heels - but completely "individual" costumes like they used to have. If some of them are skimpy or even too skimpy, I think it's alright to have them. Covering every inch of male or female heroes' body in body gloves is a little boring.
I loved the new Dawnstar costume because it's very individualized, faithful to the old one (in this case that's a good thing, imho) and it's less skimpy than the old one.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Nighty:<strong>[EDIT: Bri, there's a locally hosted, non-bandwidth stealing copy of this already posted here .

What do you have against this Shadow Lass sketch - is virtually the same costume she wore for a decade... before that rather terrible black one which hid all her hair made her look like a future nun later on

I never was much into her character, never could get interested in a blue woman somehow But that costume sketch - it's a classic!

I think that the Night Girl sketch with the owlish pattern in front is rather funny, but I don't know if it's meant to be funny Can't wait to see the Action storyline, I'm really excited about all the old things reappearing...

As for woman wearing sexy costumes: Yeah well, of course, that never made sense. But this is comics - super hero comics to boot - and it's always been about colourful, skimpy costumes until the 80s. Now mix the costumes with a good story - wonderful!

I just read the first issue of Action.

And wow in the Adventure 247 redux, Imra's much more of a hussy now than she was 50 years ago. I heartily approve.

The scenes in the future does have a bit of a 5YL feel to them.

WILDFIRE! Woohoo - I wasn't expecting to see him again so soon. Not really crazy about the design, but better that than nothing at all (and from what little we've seen, he does seem like the same ol' Drake. Wonder if that's still supposed to be Red Tornado's body.

I'm really liking the art here. It's better than when Frank was on Supreme Power and the coloring is amazing (minor errors aside - I was wondering what "liens go home" was til I found the outline of the "A")

Brainiac 5's "attention getting device" was a bit showy though fun. Very convenient though that the screen just happened to be in the face where Superman ripped it open.

And I thought Superman was able to store yellow sun energy in his body even under a red sun. I can maybe understand his hand being less invulnerable, but he should still be able to fly on his own.

Could somebody post a page or a couple of panels from Action featuring the "new" Legion, for those of us who have to wait 1-2 weeks till we get the magazine, please?

I don't have a scanner, so I'm sorry.

I really liked the story and am looking forward to this arc. I agree that Saturn Girl is a bit more of a bombshell than in the early years.

I loved the two-page spread with the Adventure-era legion, but did catch the error of having Ferro Lad and Timber Wolf in the same picture. Also, Chemical King is not in the picture and Triplicate Girl is shown, even though she was Duo Damsel by the time Timber Wolf joined.

Click here for an extra large version.

OH! Oh, thank you Nightcrawler! Oh, God they are...amazing!
I've got half a mind to get on a plane, go to England and buy it today...(unfortunately I also have half a wallet).

That last scan gives me the impression that that Legion may well be the "Best of All Worlds".

The cover looks even better on real live paper than the online images. A powerful image that really jumps out at you from the rack at the comic book shop.

My reactions to the interior images are mixed. Cosmic Boy and Lightning Lad work for me. Saturn girl doesn't look right for some reason.
Colossol Boy's new look is great.Dawnstar and Wildfire, eh, not so much.

The issue only furthers the debate on whether this can honestly be called the "original" Legion, or if it is yet another reboot/reimagining. This is not the story that appeared in Adventure #247. It has a lot of the elements of that story, but some important differences. I'm in the "this is not the original" camp. Fortunately, I'm not in the "if I don't get the original back I'm going to hold my breath until I turn blue and never buy another DC comic as long as I live" camp. The story has my interest. I'm curious as to why Earth now has a red sun, and anxious to see where this all goes.

Well, obviously Earth's sun was never red in the "original" Legion, so that says a lot about "this" Legion's world.

Neither am I. This Legion seems "close" to the original and since a big part of the continuity of the original Legion- whichever that is - "happened" in this one, and the characters are also "close" to the original, I'm satisfied.

I was confused about the changes to Dawnstar and Wildfire. From the story, these Legionnaires are only slightly more than six months removed from the Lightning Saga. So it seem weird that Dawnstar's and Wildfire's looks would have changed so much. I hope they don't change every Legionnaire's look after using the silver age looks to convince the readers that this is the same as the pre-boot Legion.

Or are the new looks a hint that maybe this is not the Lightning Saga Legion at all Maybe this is another universe Legion that knew about the Lightning Saga and used that to trick Superman into coming to the 30th century.

It is unusual for all/most Legionnaires to get new costumes simultaneously, but it's happened before.
In the late Baxter issues they all got new costumes designed by Computo.
You know. The ones with the humongous shoulder pads and dozens of pockets you could carry an entire household in.

In any case, it looks like 2008 (3008) is going to be a huge year for the Legion. I can't wait!!!

Superman's hand is bleeding. That certainly has got something to do with the red sun but he is flying...oh, wait! He's also wearing a Legion flight ring! That explains the flying.
Oooooh, this has *gotta* be good!!

You guys probably have already read Action #858 so the answer to my question may have already been answered there but, how do you explain this?

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Oct07/previews/Geoff_Johns_31st.html

How come Superman doesn't remember Brainiac 5 and seems surprised at learning Brainy comes from his future since he definitely knew the Legionnaires in Lightning Saga?

Yeah, what Dain said.


Loved the artwork overall, though the eyes were kind of big and scarey and the skintones yellowish in some panels.

LOVED the 2 page splash of the silver age Legion. Didn't really bother me that Triplicate Girl and Ferro Lad were included with members who came later. I took it to be a representation of all the Legion from that area and not a particular moment in time, if that makes sense. (though Chem and Kara were missing, natch).

Nice variation of the baxter Legion logo...

Interesting that they tweaked the logo...

I think I've stumbled across a plot point here.

1. The sun of 3007 (or whenever it is) is red.
1a. It was yellow the last time Superman saw it.
1b. A sun can't change colour naturally in such a short time, and anyway a red sun is so much bigger than a yellow sun that if it changed naturally in that time, Earth would be a cinder, if that.
1c. Therefore someone must have tampered with it.
2. Starman mentioned, in the Lightning Saga, that Sun Boy was missing.
3. I propose that these things are related.
4. Dr. Regulus?

Pffft. After all the false advertising about "the original Legion", Johns doesn't even make a half-hearted attempt to honor the Legion's first and most seminal story. What we get in its place is a garish splash page plus four pages of vapid and pedestrian banter. The founders didn't come to invite Clark to join the Legion---he pleads with them to go to future. No reimagined retro space-age costumes, no initiation pranks, no Martian ice cream parlor, no yammering, bubble-headed Cosmic Boy, and a grossly mischaracterized Saturn Girl to boot. The time sphere is the only relic of Otto Binder's far superior story. Imo, the only thing Johns accomplished here is to sap all the magic out of the first meeting of Clark Kent and the Legion of Super-Heroes.

The art didn't work for me. Dawnstar looks 45 years old. Even the teenage versions of the Legionnaries look old. Everyone's eyes bulge out like they have thyroid disease.

I gather the first few pages were meant to set up the alien pogrom in the 31st century, but as a "homage" to Kal-El's legendary flight from Krypton, it's pretty noxious stuff. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I don't care to see child killing become standard fare in super-hero comics. This is the second time in recent memory, the first perpetrated by Johns, much more graphically, in one of the earlier issues of JSA.

At least the "original Legion" debate can be laid to rest. It's not them. And no, they're not close enough for me. Thank Rao there are alternatives.

Well, it would have been great to have the original story reproduced exactly, but we can't have that, can we? There's no Superboy.

I agree though that the original costumes of the 3 Legionnaires would have been a nice touch, even in a somewhat modernized version.

Well, we can't have the "original legion" back anyway, as their story has been changed both by Crisis on Infinite Earths and in completely unknown ways by Infinite Crisis, so i don't mind an "updated" origin story as, after all, we didn't know how Superman met the Legion in the New Earth continuity.

So far, from what we've seen both in the JLA/JSA crossover and this first chapter, this is more what the Legion is to me than the Archie Legion or the threeboot version.

I didn't expect the original story to be reproduced but I had hoped they would try to recreate its spirit and characterizations. This wasn't a modernized version of Adventure #247, it was a completely new story, and a rather bland one at that.

I agree with Tromium that Johns has made unforgivable changes to the Legion's first meeting with Superboy. Whatever this is, it is most definitely NOT the "real" Legion it was purported to be.

However, it seems that this also is not the current New Earth Superman, but some silver age analogy.

Note that the clumsy Clark is much in keeping with the traditional mythos. Moreover, does anyone else find it odd that Perry chastises Clark for only having Jimmy for a friend at the paper, when Clark's been balling his best reporter for a couple of years now? Moreoever, note that Clark has no wedding ring.

I'm also not super-thrilled with the apochrophyl group shot. As noted, most of the team depicted never served alongside Triplicate Girl, while many also never met in the original clubhouse. And why does everybody keep forgetting about Chemical King?

Given Saturn Girl's new personality, I wouldn't be surprised if Supes cant remember the Legion after crisis because she badly botched a mindwipe after having s fling with poor confused Kal-El. Didn't Supergirl set them up a few times back in the day?

And yes Tromium figured out what really bothered me about the look of the founders in the flashback. Imra, in particular, a bad case of hyperthyroidism. I didn't mind that look once Kal went to the future though, its clear they're under lots of stress.

As for the story itself funny how they keep coming back to the Xenophobia angle. I don't think it was ever a part of the LSH until Levitz installed the polymer shield. After that, successive writers have consistently remixed the concept. It was a driving undercurrent of both TMK and the early ZH Legion and Id argue that the current fear of the unknown in the threeboot is just a remix of it. So GJ is just giving a fourth remix of the xenophobic future and we'll see what comes of it.

And my reaction to the baby scene is a comment on the change in the American socialpolitical landscape since the 1930s. I find it sad that the Kents' acceptance of Ka-El requires more suspension of disbelief than the scene in this issue.

I'm excited about the images I've seen and can't wait to get to the CBS this weekend.

I disagree with Gary Frank nay-sayers. I think his art looks spectacular and is very welcome.

Never been a fan of Gary Frank. It seems that all his women look crazy... He just can't do eyes and it's worse on female characters LOL

You see... I don't understand this at all. Why exactly can't we have the original Legion back? It seems to me DC could just say, "Oh yeah, we're going to start publishing the original Legion again, and all their continuity up to point X is intact", and there you go. What exactly is stopping them?

What we can't have is the original Legion back and have it's continuity square with the mess that DC has made of the rest of their universe. But I could care less about that. We've done the "something resembling the original Legion but with their history changed to fit with our current version of the present DCU" thing repeatedly since Crisis. Why should I think this is any different?

Man! There is NO pleasing some people. And I thought I was a harsh critic.


I don't get it. There seem to be so many people hating the artwork and writing on this story (which, overall, I quite liked) and raving about the same on the SLSH #35 story, which doesn't appeal to me at all. I have to go read them both again to see what everyone loves/hates so much.

Sorry, I agree with EDE.

Why not just publish a Legion of Earth-One with all of it's history intact and keep it as far away from the modern day DCU as possible.

They could absolutely do that if they wanted to. As long as, you know, they didn't use the word 'Superboy'. That would be the only problem.

Not knowing the "current" run all that well, is it possible that this is some "past" of the current Legion?

Anyway, the scans are exciting.

Isn't funny that they brought back a multiverse and seemingly revived every major pre-crisis world in more or less their original form except for Earth 1 which they now insist was reborn in New Earth. Thus New Earth is as mishmashed and convoluted as it was in 1987.

They brought back Earth 2 complete with missing Kryptonians and even brought back the Captain Carrot funny animals with everything intact and picked up the story years later. That's different from the Legion where what they're doing is no different that what divided the LSH fanbase in the first place.

Legion in Action may turn out to be a neat story but the fact is their focus is rewriting the past instead of giving us new stuff.

No, it wouldn't work. For instance: the Lightning Saga Legion's Star Boy is a white guy who is currently a member of the JSA who calls himself Starman. But the threeboot Legion's Star Boy is a black kid. They're both Thom Kallor of Xanthu. (For that matter, the threeboot Legion is generally younger than the Lightning Saga Legion.)

They're supposed to be his friends, they can get away with calling him Clark, or Kal, and even have worked with him at some point before his public outing as 'Superman' in the 20th century, thanks to the wonders of time travel and telepathy.

It wouldn't grossly violate the *theme* of the Legion of Super-Heroes to have them be inspired by Superman's legacy, and have teamed with him a time or two, or pulled him into the future (and then, at his insistence, removed his memories of that future, rather than risk messing up history) even with the 'no Superboy' dictat from Mrs. Siegel. It would basically be housekeeping, shuffling a few minor details around to accomodate both the past continuity and the current legal nincompoopery going on.

Alright just to throw this out there... if, hypothetically someone brings back the legion excatly as it was before the First Crisis... then what... either you keep telling the same stories again (in which case you may as well go back and re-read those stories), or go ahead and advance the story - in which case there will inevitably be someone who says well that's not my legion, that's not what they will do. The point is, its impossible to have the legion be what it was. The only way for that is to copy the old stories verbatum...

I'm not trying to defend DC, they've screwed up their fair share. All I'm saying is there's no such thing as a static comic book. You look back to pre-crisis comics, look at superman, etc... its all different. It's all changed over time... The legion has not had the opportunity to grow nearly as organically, because of the re-boots, but nonetheless... you can't expect the same things...

My point is that when all is said on done people shouldn't stress this much over continuity. It all comes down to how a good a story is. It should be judged first and foremost for its inate worth... Is it a good story?

-rant over-

-Alex

Well, sorry but...how about picking up after the Crisis and then telling all new stories that don't involve -

1. Changing people's backstory (this includes Superboy, just don't write about him until you can use his name again. Show him in flashbacks, etc. Just don't say the name. Plus, Wildfire in Red Tornado's body?, "Sensor Girl" + Karate Kid?, sexually ambiguous Dawnstar?, etc.)

2. Changing everyone's costume. Start with the Perez/Giffen/Lightle costumes (and then, if you want, change them over time...).

3. Make the future totally and completely change since the last time we saw anything around LSH vol. 3 #18 or so.

Evolve and tell good stories from there (or pick another spot in the past). Simple, easy.

Why must everyone re-invent the wheel and change everything so drastically? The problem I'm having the most with all of these 'boots, except possibly the Reboot era and the Cartoon (First Season) is that the future of 1000 years from now has to be bleak and ultimately (for me) uninteresting.

When you read ADVENTURE COMICS #247, you want to join Superboy and his adventures in THAT future. When I read the current writers visions of the future, I want to stay home cause I'm bored with it all. Been there done that and there's nothing there to snag my imagination.

Writers who mine the past never want to take us (and the characters we love) along on new directions. They want to see just how much they can change and warp everything we knew about them and then tell us the same old story, over and over, and over again.

Nightcrawler for President!

That's exactly how I'd like to see things done.

I agree with Nightcrawler generally - particularly on the bleak future angle, but I don't feel this Legion, at least the little I've seen of it, is so "drastically" changed compared to the original.

C'mon guys, how long has it been since the origin of the Legion was this close to the original? I say it's been too long and this origin is pretty close. 3 kids from the future go back in time and make Clark Kent a Legionnaire. So, the kid is not Superboy. We can't have Superboy. That fact alone, name or no name, means there's no way we can have the original "origin" back intact.

How drastically altered is the 3boot Legion compared to this or the "classic" one? Way too drastically I'd say.
And no, I'm not down on the 3boot (except a few parts of it), I actually like it. But admittedly it's the most far removed from any Legion version of the past, even the Archie Legion.

I don't know what Saturn Girl's characterization is in this issue, haven't read it yet, but I feel it's something minor.

As for me, I'll say it once again, nothing would make me happier than have the 3 boot, and an "adult" Legion book starring the Lightning Saga Legion and the cartoon based comic.

Seeing the old Legion logo on the cover made me smile.

I wonder if the red s-shield-looking doohickey in space had anything to do with the sun being red. Looks like whatever was "discovered" in the arctic turned Superman into a non-alien with Smallville as his "birthplace." Hope Juun came to his senses before pulling the trigger.

It did strike me as odd that Clark didn't recognize Brainy more quickly, but I could see time travel + a post-hypnotic suggestion being easier to overcome when you are dealing with someone in person. And it helped introduce the Legion idea. Their first meeting was good too. I easily got the vibe that each of the Legionnaires were really excited to see Clark (and not just so they could flirt). Clark's reaction was pretty endearing, as was much of his depiction. It's nice to see someone depict him as he should be.

It seemed something made Brainy's time bubble programming go off course. I hope the whole arc isn't about finding where he is, though. Looks like the Cosmic Boy Death League got into the old HQ. Good to see they're still around.

I was glad to see Colossal Boy in the first set of Legionnaires. And he even had a few lines. His new costume was nice and functional (Dawnstar's too). I'm glad it didn't have that extra head thing. Wildfire's though, I don't know. He looked naked.

Can't wait to see who's in the next issue--maybe we could even have separate threads for these issues

As was said, I didn't get why Clark did not recognize Brainy, since he just spent time with some Legionnaires during Lightning Saga. He spoke with such pride as having been a Legionnaire, and what they all meant to him. I could also see him wonder if the figure inside the robot was Vril Dox of L.E.G.I.O.N. for a moment...

Also it was wierd how Perry berated Clark for not having more friends at the Planet... Helllooooo!!! He's married to your other star reporter????!!! Not that Clark bothered to even call or see Lois before taking off to the future.

Lightning Saga really conveyed Clark's appreciation for what the Legion was to him, a place to belong, since he truly was "different" as a kid. That scene in LS where he says simply "We were Legion" made me want to stand up and say "YEAHHHH" with my fist in the air! But this first meeting with the founders really seemed to make Clark seem extra needy, begging to come along. They bent the laws of space and time to say "Hi" to their hero and then turn around and leave??? Why didn't they at least ask him for an autograph?

It also didn't make sense that Clark remembered visiting the future "between classes" and non-school days. Duh people, time travel here... you can always set the coordinates a few minutes here or there so that's not a problem (even Marty McFly figured that one out in the first Back to the Future movie). Seemed like an unnecessary explanation to me.

So this issue takes place a month after LS for Superman, but it's been almost 7 months since anyone in 3008 has seen Brainiac 5 (based on the time references made by Dawnstar and Colossal Boy).

And Awkward has it right, Wildfire did look naked. Funny thing to say about an energy being, but it seemed like his uniform had a "peek-a-boo" aspect to it.

Gary Frank's art is great, unless we're getting extreme closeups on faces. Dawnstar did look to be in her 40s and teenaged Imra had big ol' bugs eyes.

Despite my minor compliants, I'm really pumped about this story arc!!!!! It may not be the pre-Crisis Legion, but it'll do until something better comes along. LLL!!

Amen!!

A poster over at the DC Boards said that this Superman in Action and the Superman in Lightning Saga aren't one and the same, since there are several "Supermen" around what with 52 Universes and all.
I haven't followed Supes' titles recently, but was under the impression that it was the same Superman in Action and JLA.

Oh I prefer by far the Action Comiss story to the very disappointing Bedard run. I'm not a big fan of Gary Frank, but I prefer by far his clean pencil to Calero's confusing artwork.

Mike Grell's cover (uncolored) for Action #861 is up at the Catskill Comics site (link posted by CC over at comicboards.com/superboy). Legion vs the "Justice League" of the 31st century.

The image is too big to post but here's the direct link: http://www.catskillcomics.com/GrellOA/Action861cover.jpg

Nice cover but have I ever said how much I loathe this neo-Nazi stuff? Well, I'm saying it now.

That is such a classic looking Grell cover! I think I've died and gone to heaven.

It IS a classic looking Grell cover! Even his pencils are very tight and clear like they used to be, unlike his more recent works.

Thanks for posting the link, Tromium.

Hey! What happend to Light Lass's emblem on the splash page?

OK, something I was thinking about and a nagging little irritation.

The Founders say to Clark "Oh you have never seen flying kids before." Yet in this Post-Crisis Earth, we have the Justice Society that fought in WWII. So flying people, although probably not common, would not be unknown. Kind of takes away the whole alienated Clark vibe.

True, but this is in small-town Kansas, pre-internet and pre-cable.

I'm sure I remember an issue from a couple of years back with a young Clark dreaming about the JSA after watching old footage...

My theory is that these adventures take place much later than the lightning saga stories and that Earth's sun is that way because of what probably happend during The Crisis. I would say this "original" legion stories take place in after the battle with The Infinite Man.

I'll certainly have to get that Grell cover.

Looks like Brainiac Five is back in the mix by this issue. Polar Boy too. And, could that be Lightning Lord that Dawnstar is toying with?

Still don't know who the other two bad guys could be.

Nice touch that they're fighting on an L.

Oh, I thought it was Element Lad in the middle but it's so danged hard to tell who's who. Assuming the guy Dawnstar is holding is Mekt (I took it to be LL at first), is this a clue he's the dark guy in the black robes -- because it sure looks like she's "unrobing" him. (But why would Mekt, an alien, be part of the "go home, aliens" Justice League?)

I just went by the force field belt for Brainy. And it does seem an odd look and situation for Mekt; maybe it's actually a shapeshifter.

You know, I was trying to find a villain who is connected both with the Legion AND Superman and who might have something to do with stellar powers that would explain the change in the sun. And there is one

Pulsar Stargrave!

Here's an excerpt from the entry in wiki:

A native of the planet Colu, Stargrave originally claimed to be the father of Brainiac 5. In later comics, Pulsar Stargrave was believed to be the original Brainiac[i], but this was never confirmed.

In appearance, Stargrave looks like an ordinary Coluan with no hair. At some point before the 30th Century Stargrave's body merged with that of a star as it went supernova, giving him [i]the ability to harness and control stellar energy.

Stargrave is an extremely powerful figure, on par with other Legion opponents such as Mordru and the Time Trapper. In his quest for galactic conquest he teamed up with Glorith, and often manipulated the Legion, especially Brainiac 5.

And the robot Brainy used to contact Superman is reminiscent of Brainiac. What do you think?

We're notorious for it.

So, I got my copy of Action late but at least I the got it. There's something wrong with this Superman. I'm betting that this is one of those alternate Earths. The origin's off, the coloring's off, the art's off, are these guys Qwardian or something?

Could it be that "The Three Legions" will be alternate Earth Legionnaires we've never actually seen before? That would be disappointing, I was hoping for different eras or "restore points" for various LSH versions. It would make us all happier to see the DnA Legion fight alongside the WnK Legion as well as filling out the story with pre-Crisis Legionnaires.

The "thousand years in the past" bit confuses me too. What does Superman's history have to do with a planetary civil war? Are we going to find out more about the farmer and the alien baby? Following Jor-El's example may not be such a good idea.
I mean, I may love the stories about King Arthur but I'm hardly going to bundle up my child and ship him off to England.

I almost feel like I'm reading a random issue of last year's Supergirl series...wtf?..

Hopefully enough time has passed to fill in some gaps...

Here's the Alternate Cover -

Here's the Grell cover for posterity (when the link no longer works) -

Is it just me or does this Saturn Girl really look a lot like Anna Nichole Smith?..without the implants..

Blech. I hate Grell's artwork.

I've always liked Grell, but I will admit that cover does look a little bit too busy.

Having seen some of his pencils I'd really love to see this cover without the inks. At least it IS busy, I always hated the empty backgrounds in so much of Mike Grell's art.

I liked the story but admit was taken back with some stuff.

The Clark/Legion meeting was certainly too much of a difference. I am one of the ones defending Geoff's "original" Legion comment but will no longer do so.

As for Gary Frank? I like him but don't love him. I agree with Pariscub that he draws crazy eyes on everybody! Don't love the new costumes but don't hate them either. If this version of the Legion gets their own comic I would certainly like new costumes.

What won me over? It's somewhat like the PC Legion. We haven't seen the "original" anything from DC in decades. It's not the original JSA, JLA, Superman, Batman or Wonder Woman. I just hope there are not too many retcons with this Legion.

The characters in this story are some of my favorites. Colossal Boy, Wildfire and Dawnstar!

I love Wildfire's look actually! Kudos to Frank on him. One of the best Wildfire's I've seen.

Colossal Boy? Eh. What do they have against the headgear. Dawnstar? There isn't much you can do with her costume but all the lines and stuff? eh.

I'm starting to get excited about the Legion again. This seems to be the closest to the "original" LSH that I've seen in years. The Dawnstar costume looks like a variant of whatever she was wearing in her first appearence when R.J. Brande sought her out to join the Legion Academy

I know what you mean. The JSA/JLA crossover made me buy LSH 240 to 350, the complete baxter run and the complete 5 years later run that I had sold after being so disappointed by the Archie Legion.

Dawnstar's first appearance? Wasn't it in the story with the pirate when she joins the Legion? I don't remember Dawnstar ever going to the academy. Which issue was that?

Just piping in to say I really liked the first issue of the LSH ACTION arc. I think the new outfits look awesome, how they really might have evolved over the years with those characters.

And I always enjoy seeing a modern-day artist do a rendition of the classic ADV-era outfits.

Wasn't Dawnstar's first appearance in the issue following Chemical King's death where Wildfire brings her in to track down his killers (the Dark
Circle I think?)

No, Dawnstar was a member when Chem died, and was seen morning him in the following issue, IIRC.


:tizzles:

Hee-hee... I was still slowly scrolling as I read the last post and I thought KryptonKid was saying that Dawnstar was *mooning* Chemical King after he died.

Those strange Starhaven customs...

Dawnstar can moon me anytime.

Wait that means I'll be dead. (weighing my the options) It may be worth it?

My main complaint (already aptly identified here) was the lame, abbreviated first meeting between Clark and the Legion. It should have been momentous, and instead rushed. I can undertand not doing the whole hazing/tryout thing, but it might have been fun to have the original 3 trying (and failing) badly to meet Clark with secret identities. Anyway, it should have been fun, and instead it was peremptory.

I also thought the Clark at the Daily Planet seens were WAY offbase. For one thing, Johns is just copying $&!^ from the Superman movie. Two, it is completely out of character with the current portrayal. Criticize Clark for being lazy, absent, unreliable, but not unlikable. Obviously, this was done to emphasize the contrast with his friends in the Legion, but it was still out of character.

The final thing that was wierd was seeing the Adventure Era costumes. I know these things are sacred around here, and I cherish them too, but I have increasingly come to regard the Adventure Era imagery as a period piece. Seeing it in a contemporary comic is...weird. After all, as someone said above, the Silver Age, Earth-1 Superman doesn't exist anymore, but all of a sudden his Legion does? Weird.

Speaking of weird, that's what Frank's art is. I can't believe people would complain about Dennis Calaro but rave about Frank. The 3 founders looked like they just left an all-night Ecstasy party or something. Man. Those eyes are SO freaky.

Having said all that, once Supes arrived in the 31C, I really enjoyed the book. Seems like an epic, important story, and John's scripting of the Legionnaires themselves was fine, and the Wildfire costume kicks nass! The red sun thing seems cool.

I don't mind the xenophobia storyline. Frankly, this is an important type of story to tell these days, and as long as Johns can wrap the message in something exciting and character-driven, I'm down with that. The prologue WAS horrific, but I think that's the point, and I loved the Twilight-Zonish irony of it. It's always been one of those interesting questions: did the Kents keep Kal-El because they were so kind, or because he LOOKED exactly human? What if he had looked like J'onn J'onzz, or that poor alien kid? Would they have loved him anyway, and hid him away, and protected him, and made Smallville accept him?

Another point is the "bright future" thing. I've always been a dissenter in the complaints about the future of the 3boot, based on actual Legion history as much as anything. Just because the Silver Age Legion had a 9 Planets Ice Cream Shop doesn't mean it was all sweetness and light, just like the real 1950s were as much about repression and suppressed fear of annihilation as they were about sock hops and panty raids. Nuclear war, alien invasions, mind-controlling dictators, murderous machines, Great Darknesses, fireballing, pervasive surveillance, economic collapse, chronic underemployment, interplanetary starvation. All were an integral part of that original Legion. The important thing is the LEGION to be hopeful and optimistic, not necessarily the larger society it lives in.

Which they were even Five Years Later!

Overall, I enjoyed the issue. My quibbles were small.

Despite the Lightning Saga euphoria of seeing the Levitz Legion back, there are more and more clear differences emerging, but that's okay. It is still ringing truer to LSH than most recent versions, and not just because of costumes.

Gary Frank's Superman does not look as robust, as demigodlike as others; the KC Superman appearing in JSA is a striking contrast to Frank's. That said, despite Frank's odd eyes, I do enjoy his style.

I was glad when the mild/meek Clark was nixed (the single best thing Byrne did), and am not a fan of the shy geek (having been in the biz myself, I cannot imagine such a person being a successful journalist at all, let alone one of a major urban paper's top journalists). But I can accept it; it's been part of the mythos so long. I have no idea what the current CK portrayal is like, and outside of All-Star Supe I'm not likely to find out.

The Brainiac robot intro seems a bitover the top to attract Kal's attention, but it made for an action-y visual, rather than just being summoned to a remote time bubble (or whatever they were calling it this issue).

I liked the flashback; since there was no secret ID, the whole secret-ID name-calling bit wouldn't have worked (the best they could have done there is imitate the scene in Foundations pt. 1 anyway).

So the first meeting was not that 247ish, but it worked, and it was enjoyable. Just as the Action annual with Mon-El was not 100% true to "Superboy's Big Brother," it worked - with enough linkage to the past and enough differentiation to offer a new take as well.

The Silver costumes are now Retro enough to work in their own right; whereas the new (post-)Levitz costumes intro'd here also worked (much better than advance art suggested). The feel of this LSH's world hints of TMK bleakness, which is appropriate for a post-Levitz-ish era as it is. You have a team that grew from teen to young adult together, and defended the galaxy against an array of threats and menaces; sooner or later one can't simply "top" the previous menace (be it Darkseid or the ultimate Trapper scheme), and eroding the socio-political support base is a logical next step in the story: How does a now-matured team fight to uphold a good that is no longer an institutional one?

A presumably artificial red sun makes perfect sense given the Lightning Saga: how else could the future truly not be safe for Superman? Obvious but clever. So why did Brainy send for Kal? Based on L-Saga comments, clearly the sun was already red... did Brainy have a way around this? Was he compromised before his disappearance?

I'm enjoying the story thus far, and look forward to more.

Kent, I have to admit that this sums up beautifully what I think of the issue.
Even with the differences, it feels more like the Legion than what we've been reading with the Archive Legion and the Waidlegion.

I can understand the differences in the first meeting. We don't know how New Earth impacted the story.
For all we know, this Legion could come from the future of the pocket universe created by the Time Trapper. After Crisis and before Zero Hour, that was the universe that the Legion was linked to to explain Superboy's existence in SATLSH. How about a plot reversal on New Earth? Or something similar?

While a Pocket Universe angle could make sense, I don't think it's likely.

Those who follow DC "continiuty" more closely than I have pointed out that one of the recent crises eliminated the Pocket Universe all together. If so, I can't see them restoring the pocket universe just for the Legion - especially in an era where we presumably have (and will continue to have) several dozen Earths (in other words, a Pocket U on top of the 52 woulsd be an unneccessary complication, especially since TPTB are not faithfully recreating Levitz).

Since the Pocket U is even more linked to Superbot than to LSH, I think DC is going to shy away from any usage at all (until Post-Final Ultimate Zero Crisis comes out in 2014 or 2024!)

According to Geoff Johns, (and forgive me if this has been mentioned already), the Lightning Saga Legion is the pre-crisis Legion picking up "at the close of the Baxter series" and "at the end of Crisis on Infinite Earths". When they question him about it further he says "Basically its the Legion right before Superboy was removed from their continuity".

Obviously, there's some things that won't fit that. But to me it makes pretty easy sense.

Cobalt, didn't hear about "at the close of the Baxter series".

It's tough. I want the post-Crisis baxter series stuff but it can get confusing. One of the best stories (for me) was the Time Trapper battle and the reasons behind it.

The close of the Baxter series was over three years after the end of COIE. So I'd ask Johns which it really is, or maybe a time-warped combination of both.

Per Newsarama:

ACTION 858 Sold Out @ Diamond, New Printing Coming

Sold out? Nah, the LS Legion or a Pre-Crisis type Legion can't sell comics?!

I don't know but I just always knew that if they returned to something more similiar to the old/original Legion it would sell like hotcakes.

Yeah, and what's even more "shocking" is there are young people who love the Legion in Action and got interested in the Legion, in general, because of Lightning Saga and the Action storyline who had never heard and/or cared about the Legion before. Imagine that!

I finally, finally finally got my comics today - and while I usually first read the Previews catalogue and the Wizard Magazine, this time I immediately delved into the Action issue. By sheer luck, TV repeated last weeks game of my favorite club Stuttgart beating the crap out of my most hated club Bayern Munich, so that was a nice feature in the background while reading

I have to say it: I LOOOOOVED this book. Even the Superman part at the beginning - being very iconic in its Clark Kent approach - was interesting, and the flashback, the wonderful two-page spread (with Chemical King missing!!!) and the part in the future were brilliant. I very much liked the surprise ending - the sun being red - thus immediately making Superman a more interesting character. Wow!

I liked Colossal Boys new costume, did not care that much for Wildfires new suit.

All in all: I am very very optimistic that not only will the classic Legion be returning, but that it will be in a very swell storyline which is brilliantly drawn to boot. Excellent!

My special love for dystopian future scenarios seems to get satisfied as well. So... when they HAVE to leave 5YL out of the new continuity, why not just do a new 5YL or 10YL - it's a logical conclusion.

I am very happy to hear that this issue has sold out, by the way. Makes me even more optimistic that the classic Legions return will not just be for one event... but maybe... for a permanent stint a la JSA.

Just happy. Going to read the rest of my comics now...

I knew you'd love it, Chem!
A regular series with that Legion has GOTTA be around the corner!

...and to all those who say/said a Levitz-esque Legion would only be pandering to a handful of old fogies, I most heartily say...

<span style="font-size: 30px;">Bah!</span>

...and...

I told you so!

Amen!

Guys, is it a 6-part or a 4-part storyline in Action?

Okay, well, then, let's try a little mental exercise.

Let's say Geoff Johns and Brad Meltzer wrote the Lightning Saga, and Johns wrote this arc of Action Comics, using the threeboot Legion instead of the revival version we're actually getting.

Would it still be as good, or not?

How well would the following people like it, compared to how well they like what we did get:

- you?
- someone who's never heard of the Legion before?
- someone who's heard of the Legion but never actually read any Legion comics?
- old-school Legion fans in general?
- younger Legion fans?

When we're dividing up the credit for how well this comic has succeeded, how much should go to:
- the fact that it's any Legion at all
- the fact that it's *this* Legion
- the fact that it's Geoff Johns, Gary Frank, and Action Comics?

I know I'd buy it, I'd definitely like the art and if the story was similar (not sure how that would work, red sun and all) I'd also like the story.
It's not the same though, because the Legion appearing in Action is not the current one. Different dynamics, different premise, different characterization, that may appeal to different groups.
I hope people who never read the Legion before would pick it up too. Would it be a sold-out if the current Legion starred in it? That can't really be calculated, can it?
Personally, I'd be happy with any Legion book being a sold-out, anyway.
But yes, I believe older fans who clamor for the return of "that" Legion bought Action because there was "that" Legion in it.
Maybe fans who also buy comics for their possible collectability got Action for speculative reasons, if they felt it was some sort of "first appearance blah blah".

I'm going to think about your questions, Matthew, but the first thing that comes to my mind is that there actually WAS a crossover with the Threeboot Legion recently - Brave and the Bold ##5-6 - and as far as I know, that book, even with art by Mister George Perez himself, didn't do half as good as the Action Comics issue...

So we have a little bit of a comparision coming. Of course, the BatB storyline was half over when the Legion appeared, but still, it should have commanded a similar demand... or shouldn'tn it?

It did not... so what does this say about Threeboot vs. Classic Legion...?

I don't know. But another thing to compare is:

how well Action normally sells
how well Action sells with the Legion
how well Brave and Bold normally sells
how well Brave and Bold sells with the Legion

and even then it's not clear, because a) DC was really hyping this run of Action, and b) it was Gary Frank's first Action issue, and a lot of people seemed excited about that.

I know there are some vocal people out there who are enthusiastic about Johns's Legion but don't give a toss about the threeboot Legion. What I don't know is how many silent ones there are. Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands?

And what I refuse to believe in is that someone who's never read a Legion comic will automatically prefer to see Johns's Legion in Action Comics than the threeboot Legion in Action Comics.

I do think that there are some of readers in the silent majority (non-internet people) who would see and recognize Dawnstar, Wildfire and others from the late 70's/Levitz era and be inclined to pick up Action for that reason. Visually, it would look like the Legion they remember.

Its impossible to quantify that specifically, of course. All you can look at is the numbers and then use the mulititude of variables to try and figure out what is selling. You've provided a handful of them Matthew, but there are plenty more as you most likely know. What will be interesting is seeing what DC editorial does about it...

I respect your right to believe as you will.

But when I am a new reader onto a book, I am more intrigued by a rich backstory to delve into than a flashy car spinning its wheels in the mud.

Let's say Geoff Johns and Brad Meltzer wrote the Lightning Saga, and Johns wrote this arc of Action Comics, using the threeboot Legion instead of the revival version we're actually getting.

Would it still be as good, or not?

Good question. First of all, Threeboot Legion's future would not hold the level of mystery and surprise that we find in Action: if SPs were firing on Kal, we'd already know these are the arrogant SPs WaK intro'd, not the nice-guy SPs of 60s-80s.

Likewise, since we already have a sense of Threeboot's 31th C, the Red Sun bit would either come as no surprise, or an odd contradiction with the regular series.

Next, it would be a larger stretch for Superman to have as emotional a connection with Threeboot LSH, since that has not been established. Falling back on restored continuity allows that to be taken largely as a given. Thus we have several pages of recap rather than a six-part arc about young Clark with a Preboot LSH.

Next,despite his variances, Johns does seem to be writing to Preboot LSH in the spirit of who they were in that run. If he was obligated to use Threeboot, he might not connect as closely with those interpretations; it would seem like a Legion that looks like Threeboot but might not act like them (sort of how people have noted that Supergirl in LSH and in her own book don't seem like the same character). That could weaken the story.

And, as Johns does not have to fit his story into Threeboot continuity, he is freer to write the story he wants to.

I admit I have gotten into assumptions, but there is no way to answer the question without. I cannot believe Threeboot LSH is in any way interchangeable with Preboot. Imagine Threeboot LSH shoe-horned into Great Darkness (or even Conspiracy); it would not have the same impact.

How well would the following people like it, compared to how well they like what we did get:

- you?

I've been waiting three years for a Threeboot story that knocks my socks off. I'm still waiting. If Johns was somehow able to maintain the same energy/mystery/quality, I'd accept it. But as I've said, I don't think it could have had the same impact (and not just because of nostalgia).

- someone who's never heard of the Legion before?
- someone who's heard of the Legion but never actually read any Legion comics?
- old-school Legion fans in general?
- younger Legion fans?

Unless someone has made a tight connection with Threeboot (I concede it is possible), I believe individual fans could like/dislike either, or both. Some might even be intrigued as to why there are two (three if you count the animated) versions of the LSH right now.

And I do think old-school fans in general will prefer Action, and not just for nostalgia.

When we're dividing up the credit for how well this comic has succeeded, how much should go to:
- the fact that it's any Legion at all
- the fact that it's *this* Legion
- the fact that it's Geoff Johns, Gary Frank, and Action Comics?

I think if Byrne were reviving Preboot (or any boot), I'd give up comics all together (okay, slightb exaggeration). Creative teams in my opinion do play a huge role.

I do concede that Preboot LSH has a great deal of appeal at the moment, primarily because Threeboot has been so disappointing. But even a well-executed Threeboot (or DNA-era Reboot) LSH would we very welcome. And I am looking forward to Shooter's Threeboot run very much.

But if all that the Johns Legion was running on is nostalgia, it would have run out of steam already. I think those so quick to dismiss this LSH like that are taking a rather cheap shot.

See I think this is part of the problem. At no point did anyone compare sales between the Action/LS/Levitz-esque Legion and the current Legion. Well unto you did so.

Matthew E. you preach "lets all the Legions get along" but then you seem to really try and knock THIS Legion. I've seen you do it here, on Geoff's boards and Newsarama.

People are getting excited over THIS Legion. That doesn't mean they are dogging the current Legion. I am personally very excited about Shooter & fjm on the other Legion.

But god forbid we celebrate THIS Legion. Practice what you preach. Lets not turn these Legion against each other. You think because people celebrate THIS Legion they are dogging the other one. You are dogging this Legion.

Sorry about outburst I just had my coffee. (cuban/strong stuff)

But how about the sales with Johns, Donner and Kubert. No offense to Frank but I think Kubert is a bigger name. Did those sell out?

You may refuse to believe it Matthew, but it's a fact. They don't "automatically" prefer anything. They just like it better and in several forums there've been people who said just that. "I love the Legion in Action and had never read the Legion before".
That is a fact. You may choose to disregard it as irrelevant, but it remains a fact. Certain people may feel it's impossible to like the Legion in Action more than the WaK one, but I feel that's an emotional and sentimental response because of *their* emotional investment in the current Legion, like you yourself have pointed out - beautifully and eloquently - in your blog.
It's obvious that the artificial dichotomy "Old Legion for old people - New Legion for young people" has crumbled. Young people can like the old Legion fine if it's part of a good story.

I said:

And people responded:

You're missing my point. If these are new readers, they don't have any idea that the threeboot Legion is a flashy car spinning its wheels. They don't know anything about the rich backstory. Let me say it more carefully: A reader who has had no previous exposure to the Legion is not going to find a strongly hyped Part 1 of a Johns/Frank Action story in which Superman reforges his adolescent relationship with Johns's Legion of Super-Heroes any more attractive to purchase than a strongly hyped Part 1 of a Johns/Frank Action story in which Superman reforges his adolescent relationship with Waid's Legion of Super-Heroes. Is that so controversial?

I am trying very hard not to do exactly what you said I am doing.

It is true that I have some objections to how DC is presenting Johns's Legion to us, and I have not been shy about saying so.

But I have also said that there have been lots of times when DC has made decisions about the Legion that I didn't agree with, and good Legion comics have come of it anyway. Since it's Geoff Johns who's writing about this Legion, I fully expect that this will be another such time. I have never said that this was a bad version of the Legion or that the stories containing them were bad.

One thing I have said is this: we don't know anything about this Legion yet. We know that they're based on the original Legion, but we also know that Johns feels free to take some liberties with the source material. We don't know much about his take on them yet. I am optimistic about the quality of the storytelling and characterization we're going to see with regards to this Legion, but all it is is optimism. It's not based on anything we've seen so far. What have we seen so far? Have we seen any Legion stories starring this Legion? We have not. We have seen:
- a JLA/JSA story in which a few Legionnaires appeared. Almost all the time they were onscreen they were amnesiac or acting deceptively
- one issue of a Superman story in which a few Legionnaires appeared

When I actually see something from this Legion, good or bad, I'll say so. I'll 'celebrate' them once I get to know them. So far I haven't seen anything.

Again: I don't have a problem with this version of the Legion. I'm looking forward to the next issue of Action. I have a problem with
- DC, for trying to pass them off as the original Legion when they're not. That's dishonest.
- the fans who are giving this Legion a free ride by pronouncing them great before they have had any great appearances in comic books, but (some of) who wouldn't walk across the street to spit on the 5YL, reboot or threeboot Legions despite the great appearances in comic books those versions have had.

And I think that's perfectly fair.

Fair enough Matthew.

Actually, I think the fact that issue #858 of Action Comics sold out - , when issue #850 did not - is pretty significant. And it tells me that there must be a large percentage of "Old-School" Legion fans out there waiting for any Pre-Crisis version of the team to re-emerge.

I did some research but I am not as good about the sales stuff as other guys here.

The last Johns-Donner-Kubert issue was was ranked #54 in the top 100. I saw some of the other months with that creative team and they were similiar.

So it seems Action isn't selling well even with star creators (Johns/Donner/Kubert!).

Speaking of star creators Waid/Kitson are pretty big names. It didn't equate to big sales either.

So it's either Gary Frank is a much bigger name than I thought or this Legion has drawn lots of attention.

That's true. And I had thought of that. But there's also the issue of how hard DC has been pushing and hyping the arc that started with #858; that probably had some effect.

I don't deny that the presence of Johns's revival Legion has had a positive effect. I just don't know how much of an effect, and it's not the only factor.

Yes and we have been waiting for their return for over twenty years now.

Long Live THE LEGION!

How about the fact that the recent new Legion relaunch with a new #1 issue was much hyped (more so in my opinion than the Action arc) and it didn't sell out?

Good point Nighty. Interesting.

A couple of points regarding sales:

1) Don't underestimate the power of a good cover to move a book off the shelves. The powerful cover image got a lot of people to take a look, I bet.

2) We're discussing this from a Legion point of view. I wonder how many readers who are primarily Superman fans, and don't really know a lot about the Legion are being pulled in by Johns approach. I assume there are a few out there, and imagine their reactions might mirror that of some Superboy fans back in 1959.
Johns has tapped into something with this approach of throwing back to the importance of the Legion in Kal's adolescent development. It's something that Superman fans seem to be responding to as much or more than Legion fans.

LONERS #2 SOLD OUT
119 - 23.59 - LONERS #2 - 18,901

Relative, absolute.

Action has sold well lately, mainly the Kubert issues, but it's lost a little bit of steam with all the lateness of the book. Apparently, this issue sold a lot more. Could be because of the variant cover, because of Gary Frank starting (I doubt it) or because people are hoping for a continuation of the Lightning Saga from JLA/JSA.

As for Brave & Bold, I don't think there's been a difference in sale with or without the threeboot, but it's definitely selling less.

Well, we only have to judge the fact that the first issue sold out. Most of those sales must come from the silent majority. So it's safe to say thousands. And I wouldn't call it "Johns's Legion" really. He didn't create it.
But i think that people mostly want something that's well written and drawn, and the threeboot Legion so far hasn't had any Wow factor, ,which is something you need to generate sales.

I think people want a mysterious, intriguing story, and Lightning Sage has set exactly that up. Plus, the appearance of this Karate Kid in Countdown certainly doesn't hurt. All in all, Lightning Saga has generated an interest in the "old" Legion, while DC hasn't succeeded in generating interest in the threeboot Legion.

I'm not Geoff Johns's biggest fan, but you've gotta hand it to him: he knows how to bring back characters into the fray: Teen Titans, Green Lantern, JSA... the list is long.

You make some very good points, but as someone else already pointed out, the threeboot Legion's already appeared in Action Comics and didn't generate as much attention.

But there's something else to take into account. Even if someone has never had any experience of the Legion, there's a very good chance they've heard of the classic series, more than the Zero Hour reboot or the Threeboot. it's always been that Iconic look that's been represented in house ads, or, with maybe one exception or two, in other projects showing the Legion in one panel (like Alex Ross's projects).

Plus, we have to take into account that two regular series feature characters form that particular Legion, JSA (Starman) and Countdown (Karate Kid and Mono Girl... ermm Una), which brings more attention to them.

We don't know what this Legion is like, for all we know, their backstory is totally different from what we know, but this Legion has ONE MAIN advantage over the two reboots...

It is ICONIC. And that is what appeals to people, and that's what DC has been doing lately.

Even more astounding as you can see that the Legion IS NOT EVEN ON THE COVER of Action #858 (only mentioned, but no picture)...

I have to say that I did not get the Action Annual with the Legion cause I just did not care enough for the Threeboot to spend the money (considering the fact that since the 90s, Annuals are mostly crap anyway... crappy story, crappy art, all crappy )

And the Legion WAS on the cover there...

But what I really think we need to make sure that what we feel is right - that the classic Legion sells more books - are the numbers Matthew mentioned above. Does anybody have the opportunity to get them???

Calling for proof on this one...

And yet, in Kingdom Come, the LSH there is more SW6/postboot than anything else, including an XS. It's even got "stripe" Superboy & Supergirl costumes.

Yeah, Ross' private lithos etc went for the 70s look, but that's not what you're suggesting.

Yes and no.

In 1977, a film you may have heard of came out. It was called "Star Wars." Even though we didn't (yet) know its backstory at the time, it clearly had one, and that added mystery and a mythic quality to our experience of it.

In the 1990s, an amusing sci-fi flick called "Fifth Element" was a fun and generally well-crafted film, but what little backstory it held was sketched out in the beginning and we were not drawn to want/expect any more than what it provided. It did not attract the mythic and yes, iconic level of Star Wars.

I would suggest that both John's story and backstory (shown and implied) draw a closer parallel to the former, while Threeboot tends to be the latter. There has been little hinted at Threeboot's history pre-v.5 #1, nor have we been made to care, or anticipate revelation. (As one of many examples) The mystery of Luornu alone could have been a mythic event - what happened to her world? how/why did she alone survive? It could have been built into Lemnos or another arc... instead it was tossed aside.

You say you are trying to avoid Jorge's characterization, and I would like to believe you. But again and again you retreat into characterizing people who like this version and its story as simply based upon nostalgia.

You say people are failing to appreciate Threeboot's great moments... which great moments are these? Issue #3. Action #850. Maybe B&B. Have I missed any?

The Bedard run has had decent art and adequate stories, but still nothing to call "great." People seem more excited at seeing Wildfire then they are praising the writing.

In contrast, while Lightning Saga in JLA/JSA did not pay off as we'd have liked, we have seen greater moments than Threeboot has offered. If you are going to criticize people for not giving Threeboot its due, you should not pretend it's track record is one iota better than the Johns Legion.

Was Action #858 really hyped more than v.5 #1 or B&B or the addition of Supergirl to LSH? I don't see it. I'm sorry, but it truly does sound like you are looking for excuses to be dismissive of Johns' Legion.

"LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES" #1 SELLS OUT AT DC"

Yes, indeedy, WaK's first issue did sell out but it took longer and didn't go to a 2nd printing.

It debuted at #25 on the sales chart vs. Action #858 at #34. Nothing to sneeze at.

The Titans/Legion special starring the reboot and 3boot Legions (their actual first appearance) was an even bigger seller -- iirc, the highest selling Legion title since Diamond starting recording sales figures. It remains to be seen if Action #858 beats it, or WaK #1 for that matter.

I bet Shooter's premiere issue sells out, too, and outsells Action, if only for his name.

None of it means a dang thing for long term success. Time is the only test that matters. All we know is the current monthly Legion title will be published into Spring 2009 and DC has yet to announce or hint at any plans for other incarnations beyond the 50th anniversary project. It's premature to crown any one the "winner".

Re. the "iconic" debate, I don't see Johnsboot Legion possessing any iconic quality or mythos value it hasn't stolen from the real original Legion, who've yet to make an appearance. Plus, I'm thinking it would be outrageously and hysterically funny if the 3boots turned out to be the reborn Legion of Adventure #247 -- the original original Legion, i.e., the Ur-Legion of 1958 -- whose story Johns inexplicably ignored in #858 in favor of his own weak and pale imitation of the first meeting.

Yes, Virginia, there can be more than one "original" Legion. (We have to wonder who is the character Shooter says DC will call an air strike on his house if he revealed it.)

I am truly at a loss as to how anyone can dismiss other versions of Legion, be they Reboot, 5YL, Johns, or even post-Crisis Levitz, while insisting that Threeboot is somehow more tightly connected with Silver/original LSH at all. I've seen several do it, and it is totally mind-boggling.

I for one am glad we do have multiple versions to support or not. It certainly beats there being no Legion published at all.

My point is that a bunch of people seem to be using selective and arbitrary double standards to put down the Johns Legion in such a way as to imply that Threeboot is somehow a better product.

If Threeboot is threatened by a variant Legion, why not rail against the animated book/series?

It seems clear that some Threeboot supporters are threatened by the sheer notion of a Legion version closer to the original, instead of worrying about why Threeboot has been so lackluster for almost all of the past three years.

It's not that the Johnsboot Legion threatens the 3boot Legion -- it threatens the original Legion. It replaces it, precludes its very existence now and in the future. It's the anti-original Legion, imo.

And I didn't argue the 3boot was a better (or more sucessful) product than the original or any other version, but it's certainly more palatable to me personally than a version designed to manipulate readers into believing it's something it's not.

I thought that Legion fans generally accepted all versions on their own merits, regardless of which version was their favorite one.
It doesn't seem to be so and I find it mind-boggling too. One fan in another forum hated DC for "its shameless catering to Legion geezers" just because an older version of the Legion is resurrected, more or less. I really can't relate to that at all. I don't want to sound judgmental but I can't help but wonder how genuine some fans are or/and how honest in their opinions.
Feeling threatened because there are readers who want ONE MORE Legion book is just plain..uhh..silly. Denying other peoples' "right" to want a legion version they like, using buzzwords/phrases like "geezers", "nostalgia", "it's just the costumes they want" etc is like an insult to older fans' intelligence, not to mention disappointing...

Please excuse the rant. It's just that...well...
..you know. The Legion has always been about acceptance and i can't help but wonder whether some fans are able to *see* that integral part of a comic book they are so passionate about. It's a sentimental approach but I don't think it's less valuable than a cold, pragmatic, critical approach or a "wow, kewl" thing. I believe that we basically read comics for the "sense of wonder" they give us, and it's based on a feeling/sentiment/emotion.

How can it "threaten" something that's has been practically dead for almost 2 decades? It doesn't seem very logical.
It'd be far more accurate to say the 3boot Legion "threatened" the Reboot since it replaced it, or that the classic Legion appearing in Action "threatens" the 3boot because of the possibility it'll replace it (I hope it won't and we'll have two or three Legion books).
If one wasn't a fan of the 3boot (I like it in general and read it semi-religiously every month) one could even go so far as declare that the 3boot is the one version that "threatens" the Legion, original or not, because it's so far removed as a universe from all other Legion versions.
My point, Tromium, is that a criterion, a standard or a maxim, can and should be used fairly in all cases, otherwise the person who uses it in an argument loses all objectivity and his rationale falls flat.

The difference is that the threeboot isn't being sold to us under the pretense that it *is* the original Legion, which I think is what a lot of people are annoyed at. Many of us who are first and foremost fans of the Silver Age/pre-Crisis Legion/DCU are willing to appreciate alternative versions on their own merits, but for DC to pull something like bringing back something that kind of resembles the original Legion but isn't, on the eve of the Legion anniversary, especially when they just reintroduced a mechanism (alternate earths) which could very easily have allowed us to have the genuine Earth-1 Superman and Earth-1 Legion back without *any* needless changes to their continuity to conform with "New Earth" or whatever, is something that I find kind of offensive as a pre-Crisis fan. Of course, it's fairly typical of DC's overall approach to comics these days, but it's disappointing nonetheless.

There are also a lot of people - classic Legion fans - who are not annoyed by it at all and either enjoy a good story with the classic Legion, or are happy to see the "original" back. Those who feel it's the original have as much right to be happy about it as those who are annoyed by the use of the word "original" have the right to be annoyed. And the debate goes on which is also good.

I'm not sure about fans who just don't care about the old Legion, but I feel we're making a mountain out of molehill regarding the use of the word "original".
Personally, I'd have been much happier if DC had used the word "classic" Legion instead of "original" and yes, after all is said and done I believe it's matter of different definitions of the term "original" as applied to a work of fiction.

The nostalgia-fans don't bother me. The people who've put thought into their preference for this Legion over any other don't bother me. The intrigued new readers don't bother me. Anybody who has liked what they have seen and want to see more, doesn't bother me. What bothers me is the people who get righteous about it.

I'd say issue #2. Invisible Kid, Brainy and Violet taking down Elysion. The Colu issue was good. There may be more that aren't coming to mind at the moment.

Name one.

Johns's Legion doesn't have a track record yet. We've only caught glimpses of them, really.

If DC wants me to be enthusiastic about Johns's Legion, they can do at least one of two things:

1. Stop calling them the original Legion.
2. Put them in a good story where they're not just supporting characters.

Until that happens (and I hope it does happen!), I accept them as a valid version of the Legion... but I can't give them credit for having a long and/or proud history, because they don't have one of either kind.

EDE just beat me to the response, but I'll reiterate. The Multiverse is big enough they *could* have come back from the (practically) dead with all their history -- except for the Johnsboot preventing it from happening. Aye, there's the rub.

Oh, but I do have objective standards and criteria for determining such things, and they are very fair and emprically sound, imo. I'm an amateur local historian to whom the word "original" has special significance. So, let's say I have copies of original church records I discovered in some dusty, moldy archive proving John C. Smith, born 21 September 1739 in Pleasantville OH was a Quaker farmer who was trampled to death by oxen in 1781, when some bigwig historian with two Ph.D.s wrote a 280 page dissertation insisting he was the Episcopalian blacksmith who shoed George Washington's horse at Yorktown in 1783. I won't relent until that bigwig historian admits in print in a recognized scholarly journal that he was wrong and publishes the real story of John C. Smith -- however "mountain out of molehill" trivial it might seem to the vast majority of people -- simply because it's the historical truth.

Same with the original Legion -- and it doesn't matter one bit that it's a work of fiction -- it has its own a historical truth. I have all the documents (old Legion comic book stories written before Crisis) I need in evidence that the Johnsboot isn't the original Legion, and DC's pronouncements to the contrary won't make me surrender my stance. Their ownership of the property has no bearing on the argument. If it did, their commercial interests would be a point against them.

In addition to empirical proofs, I have my own personal experience with the Legion characters dating back to circa 1964. I think I'll know the "people" I grew up with when I see them again. They resonated in a way the Johnsboot parodies do not.

So, who's not being objective? What proof do you have they are the original Legion, other than some DC bigwig saying they are?

I really think this is an academic discussion... instead of being bothered that Johns might have changed some element of the classic Legion, I am so happy that something that very much resembles the classic Legion is being reintroduced into the DCU.

I don't care if there are minor changes, I can accept a Legion as shown in LS and in #858 as the sequel of the Pre-Crisis Legion and thoroughly, oh so thoroughly enjoy it. Much more than I ever enjoyed the Threeboot - which in my eyes really did not have many big moments, and I just re-read it completely last month - or the Reboot cause both were much more different from the original than Johns attempt seems to be...

So do I care if it's original or classic? No, I'm happy that "the Legion" is back - and I'm very sorry for those of you who can't enjoy it like I do.... you're missing a great thrill

It is exactly an academic discussion. But that's okay, as that's one of the levels on which I appreciate the Legion.

I'm fully prepared to enjoy this version of the Legion, and I hope I eventually get to see them in a story of their own. I'm not prepared to say that they're something they're not.

This, I think, is my problem with that aspect of the argument.

There are so many instances of the Silver Age/ Pre-Crisis Legion being so different to each other, thanks to different creative teams.

I hardly see the difference between Wildfire being "Red Tornado", Karate Kid being alive or whatever other change Johns has made and Sun Boy suddenly becoming a philandering ladies man, Timber Wolf becoming feral or Matter-Eater Lad going from being a "stick in the mud" to a crazy jokester.

The way I look at it is this.

There are so many different kinds of ways in which this Legion diverges from the original Legion that, while I could look past most (if not all) of them in isolation, all together they produce a situation where I sometimes have a hard time imagining how anyone can mistake them for the original Legion.

I think most of us can agree that it is not exactly the Pre-Crisis Legion,But for me its the closest thing in nearly twenty years,One of the most important things about the Legion to me is its long history that was lost due to Crisis on Infinite Earths and Byrnes Superman reboot,And if Johns can restore a some of that history and bring back most of the personalities and relationships of those characters he will have accomplished something that has not been seen in the last twenty years of reboots restoring the Legion's continuity instead of destroying it and starting over.

Give me time, I'm sure I could make up a list showing just how many divergences there are between Shooter's Legion and Levitz's Legion.

Kent you hit the nail on the head with me with the Star Wars/Fifth Element comparison!

Johns has gone the mythic/powerful (and yes nostalgic) route with this one. The threeboot (& ZH) for me were the Fifth Element. Mind you I liked the film but I'm a huge Star Wars fan. Though Shooter getting his hands on the latest Legion has all kinds of possibilites and I don't want them nostalgic or mythic to tell the truth. Two different Legion and two different styles.

hmm, well, I had hoped to avoid the "academic" criticism when I inserted this unabashedly subjective sentiment in my last post:
Maybe his characters resonate with fans who began reading in 1974 or 1984, I dunno, but for me they resonate only with Geoff Johns trademarked high-gloss superficiality. Take Dream Girl's stupid "joke" about Hitler vs Brainiac 5 in the Lightning Saga, for example. And this clever little quip from Action #858:

"Aw, take that magnet out of your butt and let him come with us, Rokk. Look at him, he needs a laugh."

That iconic? Mythic? Resonant? Nah, I challenge anyone here to come up with a more painfully bad line in the past 15 years of Legion comic books.

May the ghosts of Otto Binder and Mort Weisinger rise from their tombs and blow cigar smoke in GJ's face. That is my curse.

Well IF it was in Interlac it would've been great! As for your challenge?

"Eat it grandpa!"

The problem with "original" is that THAT Superboy isn't around and probably never will be. Superman has changed so much, etc.

Also what about Dev-Em? He's running around the 21st century as a Phantom Zone villain? Does this Legion not have their good ole Dev-Em?

Anyways, the next issue comes out THIS Wednesday! Yay!

Tromium said I don't need any proof because basically I don't care if it's the original Legion or not. Dubbing it the *original* or a *reboot* has not the slightest influnece on whether I'll like it or not or whether I'll feel it's the Legion that I love.
The only "proof" I can give you that the Legion in Action is as close to the original as possible today, is the one you also gave me:
"I'm a fan of the Legion since 1968, have read practically every story that has been published in the past 49 years -more than once - and I definitely would know the characters I grew up with and they would resonate with me. The Legion in Action IS that Legion."

But!

Do you see that neither your "proof" nor mine is actually proof of anything? It's completely subjective and also a logical fallacy called "ad verecundiam" or "appeal to authority" (not to mention another fallacy that's "appeal to emotion"). In this case both you and I used ourselves as authorities because of how long we've been reading the Legion.
It doesn't work like that, Tromium. Not if we want to be objective - and openminded - about it.

As for empirical proof that the Legion in Action is not a "continuation" of the classic Legion, I believe you'll agree that there's very little of it yet. Concluding that it IS or it is NOT the original Legion from the available material at this point, is simply not possible. One can hypothesize about it, one can form theories on available evidence, but there's no actual conclusive "proof" either way.
I also believe you'll agree that scholastic analysis on a work of fiction is slightly more subjective by nature and somewhat less "precise" than actual history. The same terms can be used in a different context and a narrow, formulaic use of a term like "original", as you seem to suggest, is not always conducive to objectivity.

Oh, I don't know; I think we've compiled some pretty good supporting evidence.

From a few guest appearances in JLA/JSA and just 1 issue of a 6-part storyline that formally reintroduces an adult Legion with a *potential* cast of dozens of characters and a *potential* history of 49 years?
That seems to me like a foregone conclusion and gathering of anything that might resemble evidence to support that conclusion, disregarding all evidence to the contrary.
I'm also surprised that you used the word "we". I'm not sure who those "we" might be, and who are the opponents of the "we" who would probably be called "they" from the "we" point of view.

Yes. Which is part of my point. I *shouldn't* be able to gather that much material from just those few appearances. The fact that I can is itself an indicator of how freely Johns and Meltzer have adapted the material.

No, you know what? At the start of 'The Lightning Saga' I was convinced that they *were* the original Legion, down to the last detail. I was trying to figure out just *where* in the Levitz run the story could be fit into continuity. Just a couple of issues later, I had changed my mind completely. You don't have to believe me about all this, of course.

When I say 'we' I mean anybody who was paying attention to details like that, regardless of what conclusions they came to about them. If you read the Lightning Saga and paid attention, you're probably part of 'we'.

How many are there? I can think of only three, all explainable.

Wildfire/Red Tornado, Night Girl a member, Karate Kid being alive.

Here's what I can think of. I'll separate them into categories to make it easier for us to consider them.

1. Stuff That Happened Offstage Between Crisis on Infinite Earths and the Lightning Saga (this category is included mostly for completeness)
- Karate Kid's retroactive survival
- Night Girl's possible Legion membership
- was Star Boy readmitted to the Legion after killing Kenz Nuhor?
- apparently Sun Boy's missing?
- it seems that Lightning Lad, Saturn Girl and Cosmic Boy rejoined the Legion at some point

2. Previously Unrevealed Details About Legionnaires (also included mostly for completeness)
- Projectra has two hearts
- Dream Girl's power is related to 'the Dreaming' from Sandman
- Star Boy's mental illness
- Dawnstar possibly attracted to women (this should maybe go in Category 1)

3. Details Which Contradict Previously Known Information
- flight rings made of nth metal
- Wildfire being somehow the same person as Red Tornado

4. Smallville Continuity Problems
- to the best of our knowledge, Superboy not as active a hero now as he was in original continuity
- current Luthor never Superboy's arch-enemy and therefore not a Legion adversary

5. Legal Stuff We Just Have To Cut DC a Break On
- he used to be called 'Superboy'

6. Legion Membership Problems
- no Supergirl
- if Polar Boy and the Sensor Girl costume have statues in the Fortress of Solitude, why not Tellus, Quislet and Magnetic Kid?
- no Tyroc statue in Fortress
- no Chemical King statue in Fortress; Chemical King not represented in group shot in Action #858

7. Big Picture
- distance of decades between Crisis on Infinite Earths in 1986 and now provides natural discontinuity between eras
- original Legion continuity led seamlessly into post-Crisis era, and somewhat less seamlessly into 5YL and Glorithverse era; at least some of that material is obviously 'original Legion' storytelling, but is not included in this new continuity

8. Thematic Stuff
- Johns, through the premise of the Action arc and Red Tornado's description in JSA #5, is casting this Legion specifically as the champions of unity and diversity against xenophobia. While the original Legion was certainly in favour of unity and diversity, and against xenophobia, this was not, historically, a prominent part of what they were all about. It's a better description of the reboot Legion.
- the transition to the post-Crisis and Glorithverse eras were full of familiar details to try to preserve, as much as possible, the history of the Legion, and to indicate that DC intended them to be continuations of the original Legion. The Lightning Saga was full of unfamiliar details, which did not suggest such an intention; rather, they left the impression that this was something new.

Did I forget anything?

As I said, a lot of those things all by themselves would not lead me to conclude that this isn't the original Legion. But if you pile them all together, and consider how little screen time this Legion has had to accumulate all these points... I have to conclude that they're something new.

Matthew, believe me when I say that I haven't read and re-read a Legion comic as closely as the Lightning Saga issues and Action #858 in years.
A lot of what you, seemingly, consider "evidence" is:

1. Explainable "off panel"
2. Little retcons or inconsistencies which are a dime a dozen in comic books.
3. Discrepancies which may, or may not, be explained after the Legion storyline in Action and Countdown are completed.

I could give you examples of all of the above but I'm sure you already know them.

Even major retcons like Karate Kid alive could have occurred at some future point from where this Legion "diverges" from the original continuity. It's not like character "resurrection" is rare in comics, is it?

If there is one major "bump" that suggests this Legion may not be the "classic" one is Supergirl's role in both Legions. That won't be explained easily.
The fact that this Legion's origin is almost identical (as far as circumstances allow) to the original's one is a major evidence - but not conclusive - that this Legion is a continuation of the classic one on a divergent timeline and no less "original" than Glorithverse.
This is actual evidence, hard evidence, that points to...a certain direction. I don't think one can be objective about it if he/she tosses it aside as unimportant.

You'll notice that I didn't use DC's claims that it IS the original Legion but only evidence from the comics themselves.
Let's also keep in mind, all of us, that if a majority of fans believe this is the original Legion and/or they love it on its own merits (or hate it because of its own faults), then, for all intents and purposes it IS the original Legion with a "restored" continuity, or a divergent timeline or anything one wants to call it. If new and old readers love it, then it's *their* Legion. In that case proving or disproving anything is a moot point.

I think our posts crossed so I'll let my post above be the answer to this. Basically, some of my evidence is the kind you describe and some is not.
I think Glorithverse is a good comparison. However:
1. the Glorithverse stories got there first, and
2. the Glorithverse stories were published pretty much immediately consecutively the post-Crisis stories (not quite the same point)

If we were arguing the validity of Johns's Legion, that would be one thing. But we're not. I gladly concede its validity. I only dispute its status as 'original Legion' or not 'original Legion', a much more narrow and strictly technical point.

It's not unimportant; it just doesn't answer the points I raise.

No. These are not matters of opinion; these are matters of facts as established in published material. The definition of the word 'original' is not subject to a popularity contest.

Now this I agree with. If you like Johns's Legion, why should you care whether I say it's original or not? I think it's a point worth making, but those are my priorities, not yours.

Seriously, it's a very sensible approach: anyone who says to me, "Matthew, I don't care if it's the original Legion or not; I like it and I want to enjoy the comics," has my full and unqualified support. After all, what's it matter if it's the original Legion or not? Story's the same either way. It's only people like me who are really into mapping the details out who care about this.

Oh, and also the people who think that if it's not the original Legion then it isn't any good. They care too. But probably nobody like that really exists.

A lot of people seem to want to believe that this is the "original" Pre-Crisis Legion despite Matthew's wonderful evidence to the contrary above. Which is fine for them. But, I fear they will all be extremely disappointed once this Action-Arc is over and we get even more evidence of just how different it is to the "original."

The rest of us, knowing that it's different going in, will be able to handle it better.

Please add to #6 -
- no Jimmy Olsen as a member
- doubtful that Pete Ross (since no "Superboy") or Lana Lang as members

I'll also add that Karate Kid's original time-trip now seems to not exist as well. Any trip the Legion took to the 20th century especially those involving/helping Superman (which are numerous) seems gone. The original JLA/JSA/LSH team-up, Brave and the Bold and DCCP appearances are wiped out as well.

Oh, trust me, I don't find it hard at all

I'm sitting watching this debate with somewhere between dispassion and mild amusement - while preboot variations don't have that special "never ever EVER" place in my brain the "threeboot" does, I don't really care about them + it's Johns + I really don't care for current DC in general.

But, execution notwithstanding, it seems as original as the Post-Crisis/Glorithverse LoSHes - less so than the former in a lot of ways, if it rewrote the origin. Which, if applied in a relatively similar way to post-ZH, would probably make me not bother before even checking the execution, but...

I'll add Dev-Em fiasco to the "evidence". (i did earlier and you guys left it out!)

Wildfire using Red Tornado's body? I hate it but anyways that could've happened off panel post-Crisis or Magic Wars or whatever.

The way I see it is a lot of the inconsistencies can be explained by the changes made in history by New Earth being created.

To me, that makes it more like the Post-Crisis Legion rather than the Glorithverse. And the thing about that is that no-one ever suggested that the Post-Crisis Legion, heck even the Glorithverse Legion, wasn't the originals.

Which makes me wonder what is so different this time that people don't have that same view this time.

Or there could be a retcon that Prof. Vultan used the Red Tornado's inner workings to create the suit Wildfire inhabits. It might not be literally Reddy's "body".

As I said above, no-one thought the differences between Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis history didn't make the Legion appearing V3, after the Crisis, the originals.

So why do the changes now, as compared to the changes then, cause people to doubt their "authenticity"?

Lots of people were irritated by the changes as they appeared in V3. The authenticity question can be answered a few ways.

I would imagine that fans back in the 80s
a) were less likely to complain vocally. There has been a cultural shift in this direction in the past 20 years.

b) Did not have an outlet where they could easily complain. It's hard to remember life before the internet, but writing a letter, putting a stamp on it was an awful lot of work relatively speaking. Then the letter reached the editor and they would filter the ones they wanted to print. As opposed to the net, which resembles an unfiltered hall where everyone talks again.

c) did not have a problems with the hypocrisy of the editorial statements now compared to then. Back then they said upfront that things were being changed to fit the modern continuity, people accepted the loss of that and had moved on. Now they restore the multiverse giving the possibility of the restoration of the entire original continuity. Then they bring back something say it is the original but isn't, when the entire precrisis earth could easily be Earth 86 or whatever.

Pardon me, I haven't read a single issue of Countdown, but I saw this a few months ago in the thread Recent Legion verse sightings.

Is that out now?

[/b]

"You were kids."
"No. We were Legion." two panels or so beat more than two years. TKO.

Yet they get bashed by some more for a few guest appearances than a starring-title version that has produced minimal fruits.

I am curious of what your definition of "righteous" is, so I'll refrain from pot/kettle comments.

The original Legion did end, whether in 1994, 1990, 1986/7, 1958 or whenever one draws the line. I concede that. I do not see the Johns Legion as any farther a leap from the original as some (but then, I have no problem with 5YL either).

What is "original?" If it wasn't published in 1958, one can argue that any variant Legion is not "original." Garth's original origin had only him on Korbal getting zapped. Mekt was added later. And then Ayla. Thus by 1963, we were already seeing variantions and changes (and don't get me started on the 21st/30th century or World Wide Police changes).

Thus far, I do not see enough differences to consider this any less authentic "original" than any other Preboot version. If one chooses to perceive differnetly, I respect your rigght to do so. But I respectfully request that you don't get "righteous" about it.

The differences in a nutshell:
1. no Supergirl or Pocket Universe
2. Young Clark and possibly young Superman instead of Superboy
3. new twists that were not revealed Preboot but don't necessarily contradict it
4. new ties to regular DCU continuity that offer minor (at best) contradictions to Preboot
5. a handful of minor changes

okay... so we do all know this is not exactly Preboot. Instead we are arguing over semantics about how close it is, and whether its proxinity is dishonest or not. Regardless of its quality or impact on contniuity, was Byrne's Superman dishonest for ditching blue, white and plaid Krytonite or revamping what didn't work by his 80s sensibilities? Even if you didn't like it, was that "dishonest?" By all acounts, Byrne intended to get back to (what he saw as) the essence of the character.

Creators, even those trying to rebuild the past, do need some flexibility. Good stories have to take precedence over anal retentive continuity - what good is an intact continuity that no one cares about? How could anyone revive a 100% "authentic" Preboot Legion, since there are so many inconsistencies? Also, how does one pick up at, say, Crisis, without contradicting the rest of v.3 and Preboot v.4? You cannot. You have to figure out what works and run with it.

Johns has yet to show any departure greater than any other in-era modifications.

If you do not believe me, re-read Cary Bates. Re-read the early Silver issues. List al lthe post-Crisis changes. It is impossible to write anything 100% "true" to everything.

Mon-El, even though that image did make it into Countdown, the stories themsleves state that none of the League/Society members know who a Legion is and thus contridicts it being apart of "New Earth" history. And Karate Kid has given no indication that this is his second trip to the present.

So, either it's crappy writing or crappy editing. Take your pick.

And I (personally) don't see anything mentioned above as "anal retentive continity." I see it as a history of a team which Johns and TPTB are claiming are now apart of the Legion that is appearing in Action Comics when their "good stories" are proving that it is not.

Some people have been arguing for years that the post-Crisis and Glorithverse Legions weren't the authentic originals, especially the Glorithverse. I know because I'm one of them. For that group of fans (not so small, I think), the Earth One Legion before Crisis -- for all its inconsistencies -- is the one and only original. So, the line of demarcation DC recently drew at Crisis seems a natural separator -- it's existed for us a very long time. The problem (my problem, specifically) is that what's been wedged in the place of those abandoned realities is just another make-believe "original" Legion.

I totally agree with your comparison of the Johnsboot and post-Crisis Legion. The situation is pretty much the same now as it was in 1986 -- which translates into very bad news. The New Earth Superboyman is quite frankly rot, imo. Not as not bad as the pocket universe superboy clone and Valor, but still rot. It's the same basic recipe for disaster DC used in 1986 and 1989 to produce the previous two make-believe "original" Legions, and it doesn't taste any better now than it did then.

Could someone fix the Johnsboot Legion after Johns lets it go? Maybe, but they'd have to fix Superman first. And the complete mess DC has made of New Earth. And the new Multiverse, too. The problem is widespread and systemic. I'm not opposed to Final Crisis wiping out the entire thing and resetting all its properties from scratch, including the Legion. It wouldn't necessarily restore the original Legion, but it couldn't be a worse situation than it is presently.

So basically, Purists are never going to be satisfied with anything that isn't 100% true to what they want (or rather what they think they want)... IF (a very big if) all Purists could even agree on a single set of criteria. Even if most say Crisis is the point to return to, we have no guarantee that others can/will insist that some elements of post-Crisis (like Conspiracy, the Sensor Girl mystery) be included, while other might insist that pre-Secret of the Legion (or whatever) has to be the point of return.

In short, Purists are not going to be happy even if they get what they seem to be asking for.

And to get anything remotely resembling what Purists want, we have to revamp the entire DCU, re-add Supergirl, settle the Superboy lawsuits, and ignore the past 22 years, the good bad and neutral. It's a good thing they don't want much!

Okay, fine. If you want to wait for your perfect ship to come in, I cannot begrudge you that. It is going to take years for legalities, plus more corporate politicking at DC. I myself find the path of least resistance to be glad we have a cup that is at least 3/4 full than to complain that "they don't make straws the way they used to."

If I were sitting around waiting for my "perfect" Legion, I wouldn't go around arbitrarily bashing any others.

BTW, they are all "make believe" Legions.

I can respect that. But to me, a 1965 Mustang is still a 1965 Mustang, even if it has new upholstering or different hubcaps.

In the context of the sheer number of changes and "course corrections" made throughout the Preboot era, I do not see anything far out of line compared with adjustments that were made during/within that period. As we learn more, I may reverse my stance.

I was not on any LSH board when Superboy's Legion came out. Was there as much horror and scorn from the Purists when that came out?

It was very nice of Matthew to go to all the trouble of posting everything he considers evidence that the Legion in Action is not the original one.
That gives all of us the opportunity to examine our positions better, regardless of position.

Still, as others have mentioned already, a lot of that evidence is not really contradictory to any previous continuity and we have to allow for retcons. Retcons have been a staple of comics since..well...the 1960s and it never was a big deal before as it seems to be today re the Legion.

The continuity problems he lists under "6" are definitely valid evidence that this Legion is not the original one. For now. The storyline is not complete yet. It could be sloppy writing, it could be a "red herring" DC throws at us in order to manipulate us a little so we, the fans, will create the furor over the it is/it isn't matter (and they've succeeded) , it could be something else.

What he lists under "7" and "8" is not valid evidence and some of them are simply personal preferences. It's already been established that some time, years probably, have passed since the point of departure of this Legion after Crisis, or after any other point one wants to choose. Some things will NOT be the same. They cannot be the same. Let me illustrate this with an example:

If a person read 2-3 Legion issues from the mid- 60s and 2-3 more from the mid-80s, he/she could *very easily* make a case that they are different Legions. Suppose this hypothetical reader didn't know there had been hundreds of stories that led, more or less, seamlessly into the Legion of the 80s. He/she would have found tons of evidence to support the theory that the 80s' Legion was not the original one! Even the Legion of the 70s would seem different! When did Saturn Girl turn from a rather prudish, level-headed girl into that sensual vamp? She can't be the same Saturn Girl, can she?

The difference of course is there are all those issues between the 60s and the 80s that could change his mind but, in the case of the Legion in Action, retcons will take the place of all those "unpublished" stories. I know it's a leap of faith that some people are willing to do, while others aren't and I, for one, respect that. I would definitely like ALL old stories to be preserved in any new Legion continuity. All of them! But if I had to choose between the story of Lightning Lad's death - which incidentally the Lightning Saga pays homage to and is an important evidence of the continuity of this Legion - and,say, "Supergirl's three super-girlfriends" I'd have to choose Lightning Lad's death and resurrection story as overall more important.

As for the Glorithverse, its a separate timeline, a separate future between 2 or 3 possible timelines in the Post-COIE DC universe. Glorithverse is so far removed from the the original continuity that it's just a possible future from a continuity so heavily retconned that it's tantamount to a reboot, imho. The Legion in Action may be another possible future but it seems so very much closer to the original continuity that cannot be considered a reboot.

Oh! Let me add something. Even though I've been a Legion fan since forever, I do not consider myself an authority and i don't really want to be one. I like it better to always discover new things about my favorite comic book and feel that "sense of wonder" alive in me. That's why I enjoy reading the Trivia topic. You guys really amaze me and I'm stumped at most questions but it's quite fun nonetheless.

Superboy's Legion was an elseworlds story that never pretended to be a previous version of the team. So why be upset about it?

The people you are arguing with aren't "Purists." And, I find it patronizing to label people who don't agree with your point of view.

DC has 52 worlds now. Why does everything still have to happen in one narrow-minded universe? Every single Legion story, including the minor inconsistencies mentioned regarding Bates and other writers could exist if the creative people writing for DC weren't so uncreative.

Why shouldn't there be a Supergirl (of Earth-One?) who was a member of the Legion and who died during Crisis? Why is that such a bad thing? Why do we have to ignore that to squeeze Pre-Crisis universe into this Post-Crisis sieve? I don't want them to ignore the Zero Hour Legion either. People are sick of being spoken-down to about how this is the best they can come up with or that this is the closest we can come to having a Pre-Crisis Legion. It isn't.

There's a KC Superman in JSA, why not have an Earth-One Superman be apart of the Legion? What a concept!

And being AR is akin to objecting that Cosmic Boy was wearing his Adventure-Era togs rather than his Giffen-attire in Lightning Saga. That I could see people over-reacting when complaining about. A guy can change clothes.

But wanting everyone to just ignore the past when that's what Johns and everyone is hyping we are regaining in this situation, makes no sense to me. Otherwise, what's the point of having a Legion other than the one that DC is publishing in it's own book appear?

[Dain posted while I was typing this was a response to Kent. And to add that a better analogy is that DC is advertising a 1965 Mustang, but what they are actually selling is a 1965 Camaro with Mustang parts.]

I think you're analogy would work better the other way around. It looks like a 65 Mustang with Camaro parts.

This Legion looks like the Pre-Boot Legion, but some of the workings are different.

We'll have to wait and see about that. So far the new designs don't look like an organic change from the last time we saw this group. And the characterization hasn't been dead on either.

I see. Thanks, Gary.

So it seems people are reacting negatively to Johns LSH primarily because of how DC is promoting it? I see. I deal with what's printed. To me, worrying about DC "continuity" is like forecasting next October's weather. Since I've been reading Johns on its own merits, I really see no difference, in terms of remodeling Preboot for a new story, whether Johns or S'boy's Legion. As far as I can tell, any new series that is a part of current DC continuity is inherently at odds with all continuities that came before, so no current version (aside from an Elseworlds) ever can recapture the past (a la Dark Detective mini recapturing late 70s Batman). Thus this entire debate seems all the more mind-boggling.

My apologies for the "Purist" remark. I was trying to fight fire with fire, to show how arbitrary Johns-bashers appear to me. It appears my message did not get conveyed as intended.

I completely agree about your multiverse observations. I think that is why we are seeing the Johns Legion. I have no problem with any number of LSH eras having multiple permutations; remember the 60s-stlye Adult Legion from Supermna/Batman? Them, too. But that, to me, does not automatically undervalue the Johns Legion.

I'm not aware of who is advocating ignoring the past. But again, I've been focused on the book, not the hype. I am recalling a decade ago how NBC kept promoing Fraser, as if each episode could be *the* one where Daphne and Niles hook up. It got so bad that the actors themselves had a press conferencve basically saying, "enough. It ain't gonna happen soon. We respect our fans and their intelligence, and hope they watch based on the show's merits" (or words to that effect. So to me, blaming the product rather than the hypers seems misguided (Yes, I am letting Johns himself off the hook here. I am aware he has claimed that he is restoring the Preboot Legion (or words to that effect), and may even see his work in that light. As a creator, I support his endeavors. But he is not the referee of continuity itself, last I checked).

And I disagree about your Camero, but I will concede your point of view has point-of-view validity.

Nightcrawler said Ah, but that's exactly the point. DC says it's the original Legion but the fact remains it's a "restored" continuity of the original Legion.
Restored cars don't stop being the models they were just because they have "restored parts".
That's why I said in another post that I feel the Legion in Action is the classic Legion with a "restored" continuity (Well, most of it).


It seems to me that using a technicality like "original/non-original" in an extremely strict sense is looking at the trees and missing the forest.

People, generally speaking, don't like to feel manipulated and I know DC is manipulating us a little (any marketing strategy does that anyway, anywhere, about anything) but I feel this annoyance has been blown completely out of proportion and, after all, it's irrelevant to how good or bad the Legion in Action is *on its own terms*.
It's one thing to say "I hate the Legion in Action because of plot/art/whatever" and quite another to say "I hate the Legion in Action because DC is manipulating me by saying it's the original Legion, so I'll never find anything good to say about it". It's all a matter of motives.

I believe that most people, like Matthew, are sincere in trying to prove their theory about the Legion's "originality" and it's also fun and interesting to talk about it, but "most" doesn't mean "all".

Which characterization? Shooter's? Giffen's? Levitz's?

Though not as long as other people, I've been reading the Legion for about 35 years now and have seen characterization vary widely between creators.

Characterization in that one minute Superman is upset the Legion comes to his time and doesn't come to him for help and then in Action he doesn't remember who Brainiac 5 or the Legion is.

Brainiac 5 gave Superboy and his cousin temporary protection from the Red Sun in the Great Darkness Saga, yet can't provide that protection (long enough for him to survive for awhile) when he sends Superman to the future? Let alone the established fact that Kryptonians no longer immediately lose their powers in a Red Sun.

I could probably come up with more but just re-reading John's version of the Legion's first meeting with Clark and I certainly don't recognize these people.

People may dismiss the 5 Years Later Legion, but (even the characterizations that I didn't like) seem more in tune with where the characters had been and how they would evolve (in most cases, there are a few exceptions).

Look, I don't hate the Action Legion. I'm looking forward to it. But, I don't see it as the second coming that most people seem to want to see it as.

And besides, based on most of the posts in this thread alone, why do any of you want to see the Pre-Crisis (or any version of it) again? You all seem to want nothing more than to bash it and everyone who wrote/drew it?

They didnt make camaros until 1967 the year I was born.

Well...it does seem like some of us think of this as a "second coming", doesn't it?
I definitely don't want to bash either the Legion in Action or any other version or era.

But those are plot points and continuity errors. Not personality traits, motives, etc. which are what characterization is all about.
As to why Brainy provides no protection, maybe the sun wasn't red when he contacted Superman. When Superman arrives its six months after Brainy first contacted him. In the future, I mean.
I agree with you, I don't see it as the "second coming" either. But I find it hard to understand why people are going out of there way, especially after years of wishing that DC would bring back the "originals", to invalidate this particuler incarnation of the Legion that, aside from some updates and retcons to fit it within the New Earth timeline, brings back into continuity a version of the Legion people have been asking for. Especially as most of the reasons I see people using to invalidate them aren't, to me, that objectionable.
Not me, I'm that rare creature a fan of ALL Legion incarnations.

Please don't spit on me!

Basically I don't understand the complaints when we've seen the examples given so many times before, Not just Post-Crisis, Glorith-verse, Post-Boot or Three-Boot, but in the Pre-Crisis Legion itself.

I'm sorry, DC/Geoff Johns, but we cannot admit you into our Original Super-Hero Club! Your low score on the continuity tests we gave you proves your proposal is too imperfect!


Tromium, this means you're Saturn Girl.

Me too! I was born when Ferro Lad died, What about you?

One other nuance about whether this Legion is 'original' or not:

As I've said, I've already decided that Johns's Legion is not the original Legion, but a new Legion version strongly based on the original. I am reading the stories about them with that assumption, and expect to enjoy them on that level.

There are, of course, people who will be reading these stories who are assuming that Johns's Legion is exactly (+- details) the original Legion. These people may expect an original-Legion-type story. I don't know what's coming, but I think there's a significant chance that whatever story is coming is not going to be an original-Legion-type story. And if so, there's a nonzero chance that these fans aren't going to like it.

That'd be a kick in the pants, wouldn't it? The guy who insists that this isn't the original Legion ends up liking them better than the people who insist that it is?

Just one of the many ways things might turn out.

I'm with Kent on this one.

But at the end of the day, the first issue of John's Action story was very enjoyable to read IMO. If he keeps up the level of quality that I've come to expect from him, that's all that matters.

I'm not quite sure what else could be done to make someone who doesn't see this as the 'original Legion' actually change their minds. Which is fine. As each year has gone by for every character in comics, things have been tweaked in such a way that the continuity will never be 100% strait anymore. Batman from the 1950's equally Batman today is a long jump for many fans to make too. That's probably more of a good quality for comic books in general than a bad one.

Assuming that people who feel this is the "original" Legion want stories exactly like the ones published in the 60s, 70s or 80s, both in art style and storytelling, then I'm sure they'll be disappointed because it's 2007 now.

I haven't seen anyone who clamors for the old Legion and likes the one in Action say anything that would corroborate such an assumption.

An example would be the change in costumes. Some people like them, others don't. Some people would have liked to see the Legionnaires wear those "classic" costumes a little longer, others don't care about what costume a character they love wears. If people who consider it the "original" Legion wanted an exact copy "preserved in formaldehyde" of every last detail of the old Legion, they'd be screeching in rage about the change in costumes. But they don't.

There are those who don't care whether it's the original Legion or not as long as it's a good Legion but they are in another "category", so to speak, so the assumption they'll be disappointed doesn't apply to them.

It's people who *don't* think it's the original Legion anyway and hate it, who are very vocal about things like the costumes or old characterization or every little detail that doesn't conform to their image of what the original Legion was like. They are the ones who want the "preserved in formaldehyde" Legion, not the ones who accept it as either the original - and like it - or as a very close and very good version of the original. And like it.

I'd like to make clear that I don't feel you are one of those who would only accept this Legion as the original only in the "formaldehyde version", Matthew. You are doing a very good and precise, scholarly analysis of continuity matters etc which I believe is very valuable (and fun to read}, regardless of whether one agrees or disagrees with you.

That's not quite what I was saying. I don't think there are too many old-school Legion fans out there who can't handle any kind of change at all. Some, maybe, but not many.

What I was thinking about more was that there was a possibility that the specific new direction Johns takes this Legion in would be one that feels like a violation of what the Legion's all about to such fans. As in, they can handle change okay, but don't like this change.

For instance: Johns has a reputation for injecting his comic books with unnecessary gore. What if, and I'm just thinking off the top of my head here, there's a scene featuring the bloody decapitation of Bouncing Boy? (That's probably a bad example; it'd probably put everybody off the book.)

One thing I haven't said is what I personally think of the changes Johns and Meltzer have made.
I like Night Girl as a Legionnaire; took them long enough. I like Wildfire's new look in Action but don't like Dawny's; to me, Dawnstar should be in her original costume forever. Things like the flight rings and the nature of Dreamy's powers don't bother me a bit, and I like the Legion's role as the champions of diversity, but I think the Wildfire = Red Tornado thing is a vortex of stupid that will consume everything in its path.

I think the reason this debate has taken on such a life of its own is that the idea of bringing back the Preboot Legion (especially the Levitz Legion) is one that really resonates with those of us who were fans when those stories were published.

I can fully see the desire to have as authentic a restoration as possible, but I do not see how it is possible (at a minimum, given Superboy legalities); at some point, you have to contradict something that came before (even if it's only End of an Era or Legion on the Run). So if you start conceding some ground (and if you don't, I cannot see how one could ever be satisfied with any restoration) for legal issues, for adaptation into current continuity, or for what one's departure point(s) from the original timelie is/are, then a few changes for creative purposes do not seem so bad.

I also concede that what we have seen so far does not currently seem 100 percent self-consistent (let alone with Preboot), but my own expectations about any super-hero comic allow room for a certain amount of fluctuation. Even each era of Preboot had its hare of minor (and major) adjustments.

While I have previously been critical of the use of two standards, one for Johns and one for Threeboot, I can accept that any attempt to recreate Preboot could automatically raise expectations higher than the bar Threeboot has set (but accepting that in turn would discredit any greater or equivalent claim to "original" status that Threeboot supporters sometimes allege).

How original does "original" have to be? Is how a story hyped more important than the story itself?

All I have asked is that the Johns version be accepted (or not) on its own merits (potentially beyond Johns' own story, if other creators also use them), and we let the story play out before being dismissive, before jumping to conclusions about its longterm viability (or the desirability thereof).

I have long been an advocate that the supporters of each and every era/aspect of LSH that has attracted fans be accorded due respect. I do not see the repeated dismissal of people who are appreciating the Johns Legion as only being "nostalgic" for something "dishonest" as any sort of reciprocal acceptance.

I can only speak for myself on this one.

I have never said, about Johns's Legion, "I want the original Legion back and this is an inferior substitute." My stance is more, "Here is another version of the Legion. They're calling it the original Legion, but I don't think that scans. Still, let's see what they've got."

(Which is not to say I don't want the original Legion back. I do want them back. Also the reboot Legion! Also, if they're being considered separate, the 5YL Legion.

And if I was in charge of bringing 'em back, you'd best believe I'd be able to do it without contradicting a blessed thing. And it'd be easy. Just have the characters say, "Huh. 'End of an Era' happened. That was weird, wasn't it? Moving on...")

It doesn't have to be original at all. Who's forcing it to be original? (Here's where language trips us up. Of course we want it to be 'original', as in, an original story. But we don't necessarily need it to be 'original', as in, the original Legion.)

DC can write the Legion however they want, write the stories however they want. If they're good I'll like them. If they want to use the actual original Legion, that's great. If they want to use a different Legion, that's great too. More power to them.

Just don't do one and tell me you're doing the other. I get ticked off if I think someone is trying to snow me.

"And if I was in charge of bringing 'em back, you'd best believe I'd be able to do it without contradicting a blessed thing. And it'd be easy. Just have the characters say, "Huh. 'End of an Era' happened. That was weird, wasn't it? Moving on...")"

Well, then you had better be prepared to do about 50 years worth of research to make sure you get EVERY LAST THING right to make sure you don't contradict anything.

Nah. The important thing is to make sure you start at the same point the previous run ended, for that continuity. Then you just do new stuff and refer to the past as little as you can get away with. That's been one problem with the Legion in recent years: too much emphasis on the past and not enough on just telling good new stories.

That's a great point. The changes to Superboy from the original to pocket-universe Superboy didn't make most of us think the post-crisis Legion was different even though it was.

Heh, I agree with you. It's the same with Crisis. They think they covered all their bases and then..."oh, yeah...that".

Since Supes had a foggy memory maybe the Legion sent Cham back on a Espionage mission to the 20th century to erase various memories.

I don't see it as the second coming. BUT so far it appears it's a Legion I will be more interested in and hopefully enjoy than any other legion work in the last 15 years?

It's a Legion I like. It has elements of a Legion I want. Is it the "original"? No. Do I apologize for liking it? No. And just because I have a different opinion I won't apologize. Is it nostalgic? I guess but I see more in it than just nostalgia.

I mean the current Legion is nostalgic of the Adventure Legion? Or ZH Legion?


btw, for those that are excited about this Legion...the next issue comes out this week right?!

This entire debate reminds me of Neil Gaiman's wonderful passage in the Sandman issue "The Hunt" when the granddaughter takes her grandfather to task for continuity errors in the bedtime story he is telling her. And then he comes back with this: "Don't trust the storyteller. Only trust the story." (Of course, the next time she interrupts him, he says "Listen, bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh. I love you but if you interrupt me again so help me I'll tear out your throat with my teeth." And she meekly says "Sorry, Grandpa." I love Sandman.)

The point is that continuity for DC comics exists to be broken. If it serves the story, great. If not, then feggedaboudit. And we know this. We live in a DCU where the heroes have forgotten completely about the Zero Hour Legion assisting in The Final Night. Even though The Final Night totally happened, because Parallax gave his life to save Earth and then he became the Spectre and then in "Emerald Rebirth" or what-the-frak-ever the title was became Hal Jordan, Green Lantern Stud again. And this all happened, because didn't Geoff Johns write it? It must be true!!! I mean, isn't that... what happened??

Where the Flash family have completely forgotten that an XS ever existed. Where Superman's Time and Time Again storyline obviously never happened.

I know, I know... Infinite Crisis restarted everything again and all the continuities were fixed, Superboy-Prime's behind bars, the 52 worlds are all out there and if there's a continuity you can dream about, just wish for it and it's on one of those 52 worlds. Blah-biddy-blah-biddy-blah-biddy-blah-biddy-blah.

Let's look back through time. This is a DCU where, upon (the first) Crisis ending, Wonder Woman was reset. She was never an original member of the JLA. She came to man's world for the very first time post-Crisis. Except for the fact that Donna Troy was a member of the Teen Titans for years before these events, and made constant mention to WW and Hippolyta and Hera and whatnot.

Kara Zor-El had a funeral in the middle of Crisis on Infinite Earths and EVERYBODY was there and EVERYBODY remembered it and EVERYBODY cried and was very sad. Except nobody remembered it when Matrix came to Earth and took on Supergirl's form and then merged with Linda Danvers and then became an earth-bound angel and then Kara Zor-El came to earth for the FIRST time, except for the fact that she didn't, because there was a funeral, and at the end of Crisis, Superman mourned Kara, and it totally happened, because Harbinger recorded it all (complete with pretty George Perez pics) and Harbinger showed up as a major player in Millenium a couple years later. And if you can't trust Harbinger, who can you trust?

Of course, Zero Hour fixed all of this. Except it didn't, because Superboy-Prime, Superman-1, Alexander Luthor, and Lois Lane-1 were all hanging out in the wings. It's like a continuity poker game. "I'll see your Zero Hour and raise it one Earth-1 Power Girl! Dang it, I can't beat that hand." Zero Hour folds. Power Girl singlehandedly defeats the Zero Hour Legion for all time without even raising a finger. (It's true, if you think about it.)

And now the 52 universes come along with the promise to make it all somehow better. "If you can dream it, it's there!" Ooh, sparkly! Except for the fact that it's all smoke and mirrors, people. The DC universe exists in a completely delirious state of unreality.

There are all these trappings of Crisis(es) and Superboy-Primes and Khufus and Earth-1s and Power Girls and Psycho-Pirates and Infinite Earths that give fans stuff to chew on, but it is all complete and total illusion, no more substantial than one of Projectra's illusions. Oh, um, sorry... Lighting Saga Sensor Girl's illusions.

In future posts, I will endeavor to explain why this state of affairs is actually okay, though, and why this entire debate is, while diverting, ultimately no more substantial than the, um, "continuity" which is at its core. And finally, why the LSH is a special problem for the DCU as it exists and what sort of solution set may be applicable.

My apologies for the run-on sentences. I was trying to comment on the laughable state of DC's "continuity" with some laughable grammar.

Kid Prime's DC Point #1. Nothing really exists in the DCU.

I think on an intellectual level, you can always find some elements that will spoil your fun. For me, the return of the "kind of classic" Legion is an emotional matter: To see these characters interact in the current DCU after 14 years of "other" Legions I could not get that fond of is a true delight.

To see the new cover of Action #862 with the Subs gives me a huge thrill. And every inconsistency to the classic Legion - even the strange missing of Chemical King himself - I can blame on Crisis, Zero Hour or whatever continuity bashing there was.

So I love it on an emotional level and just explain the problems away. Not a scientific approach, but I can totally enjoy the story that way.

By the way: The way of storytelling changes over the ages. Hardly anybody would like to read Adventure type stories nowadays, Bates or especially Conway would be attacked for their simplistic writing. So what we should expect is a Levitz-style writing with a modern twist (and changes to the original continuity will be added if only to add some spice to it all - like it or not...)

I think Johns can do it - he did great on the JSA already...

To be completely honest, my cynicism regarding the Johns Legion probably has as much to do with jadedness over the whole post-IC/post-52/post-whatever DCU as anything else.

Part of the appeal of the Legion for me in most versions has always been its relative isolation from the rest of the DCU. So even though I could've cared less about the rest of the post-Zero Hour DCU, I could still read and enjoy the post-Zero Hour Legion because their storyline was pretty much independent (and it's probably no coincidence that I stopped reading them during the whole "Team 20" arc).

What Johns has given us is a Legion that's very much integrated into the whole "Crisis on Every Other Tuesday" state of affairs in the mainstream DCU. Honestly, I have very little interest in the Legion as explorers of the current multiverse, where Star Boy hung out in the Kingdom Come universe for awhile before coming to New Earth and joining the New Earth JSA*, so on and so forth. For people who like the more "integrated universe" approach to comics generally, this is probably going to bother them much less.

Generally, I don't have nearly as much faith in Johns as many of you seem to. He and Waid seem to come from very much the same school of writing (and one that I don't particularly care for), which is why it seems a bit strange that so many people seem to want to pit them against one another. Honestly, I was pretty surprised that so many people who have been critical of Waid's run on the Legion seemed to embrace the Lightning Saga storyline, when it seemed to suffer from many of the same flaws that have made the threeboot seem so lackluster for so long.

*Nota bene: I could care less about the JSA as a training camp for New Earth legacy heroes or whatever as well. The JSA belongs on Earth-2 and closely tied to WW2, dammit!

Word. My first true WTF moment in Legion fandom was when Laurel Kent turned out to be a Manhunter robot that had someone glitched out and triggered 1000 years too late.

So. Freaking. LAME!

99% of my enthusiasm came from the visuals. These characters *looked* right. And in some cases, such as Wildfire and Dream Girl, were acting like the Legion I remembered as well.

There were differences, such as Val being alive, and mysteries, such as the rift between Dawnstar and Wildfire (which even Wildfire seemed to question), but they just piqued my interest in seeing more of this Legion. After all, I never expected the writers to pick up after Baxter issue 39 or whatever and just start over. I'm quite comfortable with things having happened since I last saw them, things which will be explained over time (such as Val's assertion that his friends 'saved him' somehow, an event we haven't seen *yet,* but has been established as having happened sometime between our last visit and this latest appearance).

Will things be perfect? No. Comet the Super-Horse may well have been retconned out of Legion continuity. Universo may be Imra's cousin. Chemical King may have not joined the team, *yet.*

I loved the WW2-set JSA stories (and the Invaders ones from that other company), but that era is over, and I'm fine with the name continuing on with legacy heroes. If anything, it's a sign of the ultimate victory of the original JSA, that their descendents are around to take up the fight.

Something else else from a couple of pages ago that I really should have responded to at the time:

You're right. That was a great moment*.

For Superman.

* As was, "They were my friends." (Also Superman.)

I ended the last post with "Kid Prime's DC point #1: Nothing exists in the DCU." I now realize that I was in error. There are two things that will always exist in the DCU as long as there is a DCU. (Possibly three.)

Jor-El sends his only son to Earth to escape a dying planet Krypton.

Bruce Wayne witnesses the brutal murder of his parents at age 8 in a dark alley.

(There is the possibility that Wonder Woman leaving Paradise Island could be considered a third ineffable item in the DCU makeup, but we'll leave that alone, as it really has no bearing on this conversation.)

I posit that the "realness" of anything else in the DCU is in direct relation to its amount of distance from either of these two events.

There will always be a Joker. There will always be a Lex Luthor. Even as they change over the years (Joker goes from being the Clown Prince of Crime to a truly murderous and insane criminal, Lex Luthor goes from being an evil scientist to being a corporate magnate) their essence and their reality, as opposed to the relative insubstantiability of, say, Sovereign Seven or Amethyst, remains intact throughout the years. I do admit that the relative weakness of Superman's rogues gallery as compared to Batman's villains somewhat weakens my position, but the very fact that Toyman is still around after 50 years does say something.

Anyway, now to my point. Superman (or Superboy) gives the Legion of Super Heroes stronger DC Universe reality. He does not give them meaning or necessarily even give them worth as far as good storytelling or emotional impact, but as far as their viability within the DCU over the years, it is their close orbit around one of the DCU's twin points of true reality which gives them life.

And why not? One of the most compelling things about the Legion is the fact that it was Superman's time with them in his younger days which truly helped to forge himself into the hero he would become. It is a truly powerful mythology, and it gives the Legion a huge part of their grandeur. To think that today, Superman is unparalleled as a hero, but 1000 years in the future, he was only a single member of a club whose members each in their own way were every bit as heroic as he... that's a POWERFUL legend there, and that is a large part of what the Legion is about.

However one feels about Johns's ability as a writer (or hack,) re-linking Superman with the Legion of Super Heroes in the way that he has done ("We were Legion.") is quite possibly the strongest thing that has been done with the group and the strongest Legion-related moment yet in this new century. So Matthew, I have to respectfully disagree with you. That moment with Superman was big for him, but it was absolutely huge for the Legion as well. Not because the Legion needs Superman for great storytelling or to be a great team, but insofar as their level of "DCU reality," the closer they are to Superman, the more real they are.

Now this creates a paradox in that I do believe the LSH is and should be completely or mostly separate from the DCU other than their relationship to its number one icon, but that's a good topic for another time.

Kid Prime's DC point #2: The closer to Batman or Superman you are, the more real you are. This means Lightning Saga -> renewing ties between Superman and LSH = good thing. This also means (fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your point of view) that the Lightning Saga is more "real" than the Threeboot Legion simply by virtue of its orbit around Supes.

That's some really good thinking right there. Nicely done.

I still say, though: it may have been a great moment for the Legion, but it couldn't have been a great Legion moment, because the Legion wasn't there.

After all, just because it's DC's standard that reality emanates from Superman and Batman, that doesn't mean that Legion fans have to be primarily fans of Superman. If you get what I'm trying to say.

KP, thank you for bringing a fresh level of clarity to the table.

Matthew, I am not going to argue at length the semantics over the "We were Legion" moment, but I obviously agree with KP. And the Legion was there in flashback, as I recall -- and it was a comic book - no one was there, and there was no "there" there. Lines on a page to which we interpret meaning.

EDE, I'm not familiar enough with Johns' other works to rank him in the overall scheme of things, but in certain ways your Waid comparison seems fair.

I gave Waid a chance, based upon previous projects I liked (KC, 90s Flash, off the top of my head), and based upon Barry's assurances here on LW. I truly hoped that a well thought out, well written, well drawn Threeboot would be a success and reinvigorate LSH and fandom. Of the above, only Kitson's art was consistently good. I am aprpreciating the fill-in run, and I hope to enjoy the Shooter run.

I did not knock Waid for the sake of knocking; I expressed disappointment based on his track record as it became apparent the post-#3 slump was becoming the norm.

I do not believe Johns is the perfect writer, nor have I been 100 percent thrilled with everything he's done that I've read. I am simply not rushing to judgement, just as I did not with Waid. The less than satisfying ending to L-Saga was a strike against him, but he has shown more than enough likeable aspects to continue to give the benefit of the doubt.

Heaven forefend! These days, more like Monstress with PMS.

Forgive me if this has been posted before, I found 5 preview images of Action #859 courtesy of vdox2 over at CBR,(apparently he found them over at a Italian messageboard.)

http://comicus.forumfree.org/index.php?&showtopic=44351&st=0&#entry1427408

Thanks Mon-El!

Spider Girl is from Earth. I'll have to dig out my Who's Who.

She was from Taltar originally, if that's what you were going to look up.

Thanks Mon-El. Those pages are very exciting.

Spider-Girl received her powers from Taltar but is she from there? I guess not?

The Action #859 pages are up on Newsarama as well, and there's one more page (the last one is a 2 page spread, and the prior website link only showed the first 1/2).

So this Justice League is all from Earth, and they are out to get all alien heroes (presumably even Earth heroes who harbor/associate with non-Earth heroes, like Wildfire or Colossal Boy).

And according to Chaim's Legion Help file, Sussa is from Earth, so she must have received her powers while on Taltar.

And 'Earth-Man', Kirt Niedrigh, who appears to be the leader of the Justice League used to go by another name preboot:

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Absorbancy Boy</span></span>

If I remember correctly, Sussa Paka was from Earth and transported to Taltar where she got her powers.
(Edit: Ah. I didn't see others had already replied about Sussa's origins as I was writing this).
------

Matthew made a good point a couple of pages ago: I
*would* be disappointed if the "new" Legion was heavy with gorey images. There seems to be a lot of it lately in DC comics and that's one "modernization" I could do without.

---------

Imho, they are not trying to make the Legion, not yet at least, a part of the "main" DCU. Let's not forget that they've only appeared as guests in other titles and it's not like they never visited the 20th century before. The Legion has been there in most *big* Crossover series since the Crisis. I think they are trying to reintegrate the adult Legion in the DCU by emphasizing their link to Superman. Their very existence is intertwined to Supes. It's more like "getting back to basics".

----------------

"Second coming" was a joke, of course, but in a way it IS a coming back of a "dead", for all intents and purposes, adult Legion and continuity.

------------------

Let me remind you guys that there are a lot of us who simply don't accept any "my Legion against your Legion" mentality and like all of them on their own merits. Having a personal "focus" on one Legion version does not preclude our liking all of them, not does criticism of one Legion era/version necessarily stem from a "my/your" mentality. Not everything was great about the classic Legion (there have been terrible stories and art), nor everything is great in the WaK or 5YL or Reboot Legion. I feel we are not sports team fans, we all love ONE team, and any dichotomy is silly and immaturely fanboyish, in my opinion. (I've seen very little of it, if at all, in this forum. Thank Rao!)
-------------------

Having said that, my reaction to those pages in the link Mon-El posted was one of amazement! They look GOOOOOOD! (OK, Saturn Girl doesn't look like she jumped off the cover of this month's French ELLE magazine exactly, but the Legionnaires are fugitives, hunted, hated, tired). And yet they look GOOD!

go to:

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Nov07/previews/21st.html

but WARNING --- Spoilers MAJOR --- they revealed who the Legion Rejects are - a couple of them will make the fans happy - HINT: G_ _ _ _ _ B _ _

Enjoy!

I combined your post here rather than a separate thread, sbmddjr.

allright no problem. thanks.

I can support EDE on his statement that the Legion should be on its own plane somehow. Though their taking part in the original Crisis and Legends was great, since then most crossovers just tended to be storytechnically challenged and provided tons of continuity problems. Millenium, Final Night, you name it.

The worst ever effort was the year long (or even longer???) stay of half of the team in the Reboot. That sucked hard, and like EDE I quit back then. I guess that was the moment the slow death of the Reboot started, which only the excitement of DnAs stories could postpone for some time.

But as for reintroducing the "classic but not all original" Legion into the DCU, there's probably no better way than to give th readers some hints here and there, probing the field, making the fans want more - and the "not yet fans" interested in those rather iconic looking characters.

I believe that a new Legion book with these characters would sell better now that they have been already reintroduced than it would if it came out iof the blue. The fans' attendance is already much higher, the hype bigger. So I guess DC did right thus far on that matter, but I do sincerely believe that should they get their own book, the old/new Legionnaires should return to their secluded 30th century.

Just read the new issue of Action. It's a good one. The one thing I'm wondering about, though, is Tusker. What's the lowdown on Tusker? What did he do in his previous appearances? I have a reason for asking, which I will not be the first one to mention in this thread.

The only Tusker I recall off the top of my head was in Reboot, I believe, during Team 30's membership drive... or am I misremembering? I haven't read those issues in several years now.

Taken from here

Is Tusker a natural enemy for Matter Eater Lad or what?!

Thanks. Hmm. I wonder if we're going to get backstory on him in Action.

Thanks, Jorge.

See? Memory does not always work.

Man I really hated seeing one of my favorite members in the Justice Leagues "trophy case". I was really hoping to see the big guy play a bigger part in this story. Another really great issue. Seeing the founders in action together is always great, and I think Johns really nailed all three really well. His Lightning Lad I thought was really spot on as far as his personality goes.

To refresh everyone's memory on who the Justice League of Earth are -

First, Storm Boy:


Radiation Roy:


Spider Girl:


Golden Boy:


Tusker:


I'll post Absorb...er...Earth-Man later.

Sigh. Animal Lad-- did he get a raw deal, or what?

Hmmm. If Tusker and Golden Boy are getting used, I wonder if A.L. might merit an appearance in the ACTION storyline?

Very nice, Nightcrawler. Maybe you could also add <span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text"> The teacher. Her last name is Niwtyn. She's probably Eye-ful Ethel</span></span>

Back with Absorbancy Boy -







And just for fun, Rainbow Girl:

I did notice the name but was confused as to why she didn't look like Eyeful Ethel -

A couple of pages from this issue itself -

Heres a list of Legion characters that are from Earth.

Legionnaires:
Bouncing Boy
Colossal Boy
Ferro Lad
Invisible Kid I
Invisible Kid II
Karate Kid I
Tyroc
Wildfire

Allies and Enemies:
Absorbancy Boy :Rejected
Animal Lad :Rejected
Antonio Stefanacci
Ben Pares
Black Mace
Caress
Crystal Kid
Dagon the Avenger
Dawn Allen
Don Allen
Doctor Regulus
Douglas Nolan
Elastic Lad
Eyeful Ethel :Rejected
Fenton Pike
Flynt Brojj
Golden Boy :Rejected
Grimbor
Holdur
Infinite Man
Insect Queen :Rejected
Lamprey
Laurel Kent
Leland McCauley
Mantis Marlo
Marla Latham
Marte Allon
The Mess
Nightwind
Oli 3 Queen
Persuader
Pete Ross
Polecat :Rejected
Porcupine Pete :Rejected
Power Boy :Rejected
Quake Kid :Rejected
Quicksand
Radiation Roy :Rejected
Sensi
Spider Girl :Rejected
Starfinger I
Storm Boy :Rejected
Sun Emperor
Tarik the Mute
Tusker :Rejected
Visi-Lad ?
Weight Wizard
Westerner

Others Rejects: not sure of their place of origin
Alaktor
Camera Eye
Green Boy
Jungle King
Lester Spiffany
Rann Antar

Nightcrawler said Yeah, it is strange. She does seem to have certain creases on her forehead but it may be just a frown. Cosmetic surgery perhaps so she'll look as a regular human?

I'm glad I got 3 issues of 858. One to read till it crumbles in my hands, one to save in my collection and one to give to any "worthy" friend who may be interested in the Legion.

The art is even better in #859 and I almost felt weepy reading it. There was such a sudden surge of emotion that almost got me worried. I mean, it's just a comic book but it can still make me feel enthusiastic and happy as it did in the old days. And it wasn't just nostalgia. It wasn't nostalgia, period. It was a "now" thing and every page was like a rediscovery of something familiar, yet strangely innovated, updated and certainly very beautiful regardless of the dark story.

Don't forget that Cosmic Boy was born on Earth. I wonder if that's going to be a plot point.

Yes I forgot all about Rokk being born on earth.

I'm still optimistic about this story and this team. (I'm optimistic about the other one too; it's just harder to get over the bitter feelings I have about Mr. Waid's run.)

I hope there's a reveal of another big bad guy, because Rejects wanting the spotlight doesn't really lead naturally to a societal xenophobic wave. Maybe the red sun is having some effect on folks, reminding me of Universo's past schemes. But, then, alien holding camp 6736 has shades of Nardo about it. And Legionnaires in transparent stasis tubes conjures thoughts of Mordru.

Prime highlights for me were the interaction of Imra, Garth, & Rokk; Gim and Dawnstar having a moment; and the reveal of more legionnaires. Tinya looks pretty good with short hair.

So, who is the legionnaire in the holding camp? Someone without a homeworld to return to, but with a tie that keeps him obligated to abiding terrestrial law (Element Lad)? Someone who's been hinted at as being underground (Ayla)? Someone with a history of leading the down-and-out (Polar Boy)?

Next month's issue can't come fast enough.

Awkward, that's a good idea. Is there someone else behind this? The Rejects are...rejects after all.

In the LS JLA/JSA they showed Degaton, Despero and the Ultra Humanite but I think I read somewhere that is an untold story affecting the JLA.


Re: Costumes above. Argh! My eyes! Some of my all time favorites BUT Ultra Boy & Vi look horrible! Jo has that silly long hair again. Blok on the other hand looks great as does Tinya. Jacques? Hmm, interesting. Don't love but I don't hate it either.

I am going to have send DC some of my Ultra Boy and Shrinking Violet micro heroes to give them costume ideas!

One reason I like this storyline?

Let's face it the founders are suburban American high school kids from the 1950s. Leave it to Beaver from space.

I understand it's the future and the Legion universe is a parallel to our own. And I'm fine with that.

But even today you see lots of countries fighting that. I use Europe as an example. The EU sounds all hunky dory to me but some europeans don't like it for various reasons. Even on a smaller scale in Spain you have many regions fighting to become their own country.

I would like to see that friction in the UP. Sure the founders look like their from Earth but let's see those subtle differences of their culture, etc.

Earth for the most part appears united in the future but the UP should be like the UN. I'm not saying let's make Winathian culture extremely different and alien now...but let us see those slight differences.

I think the big bad will <span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text"> be the original Brainiac. Also, Brainy will find a way to turn the sun back to yellow somehow so Kal can come back in to the future more often....</span></span>

How does that sound?

I think the big bad will <span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text"> be Lester Spiffany! Seriously all the clues are there. An incrdibly rich Earthman wanting revenge at the Legion for his humiliation!</span></span>

How does that sound? [/QB][/QUOTE]

If that turns out to be true, Paul, then this board will erupt into complete mayhem!

Does there have to be an established big bad? I agree, I tend to think there must be some force beyond the rejects behind things, but what if there's not?

Could Earth-Man (or whoever) be accepted as a *new* bad guy on the way to becoming 'big bad'?

There's been even fewer memorable new villains than there've been new first-rank heroes in the past few years. They have to get their start *somewhere*, don't they?

Oh, certainly. I would think a culture where everyone (well, almost everyone) has a twin, an identical twin, would have siginifcant differences from Earth culture.

You said it, Dain. It's the first time I've been excited about the LSH since...probably since Monstress joined. I felt a shiver at the mention of Yera's name.

I agree that a couple of the costumes are rather ugly--I like Jo's hair, but Frank seems to be really into the Right to Bare Arms.
I do like Garth's tattoo...

So did I in almost every page. Yera, the Legionnaires in those boxes and the old Clubhouse with an updated, yet recognizable look and Garth, Imra and Rokk's "portraits", especially Garth's screamed of "this is IT". No, I don't mean "original" or anything. That was not the point.
The point was/is this story is about a redefinition of the Legion's values and spirit. The plot and dialogue show what this arc's point is. It's more than shared history or common backstory with the classic Legion. It's about who Superman is, what the Legion stands for, who they are, why they are, and the legacy they share with Superman. Spirit and values. That's the basis of Superman AND the Legion.
It IS a dark story with a Legion on the run, but what better way to redefine the basis of an entire imaginary universe than showing how those values expressed through the personalities of the Legion and Superman (a powerless Superman yet) stand in the face of extreme adversity? That's why I, for one, am not bothered at all by the darker elements and don't believe it's got something to do with 5YL other than a few superficial similarities.

I don't really feel like I belong in this discussion, because I don't have a real good memory of the Adventure years, although that's the Legion I grew up on. However, three weeks ago, I picked up the last two issues of Supergirl and the Legion of Super Heroes and the first issue of the Legion in Action. I've read every issue of the Legion of Super Heroes faithfully until the last two issues. So I started with Action and was enthralled. I then picked up the LSH issues and tried to read them. I set them aside for later, when I could better "concentrate." What did that tell me? The Action Legion is my Legion. The other one is right now of minimal interest. No offense to Denis Calero, but the art does not draw me in for Legion. It might for a different type of book. However the Action story has me hooked.

So today I braved Northern California holiday traffic to get the latest Action. It was worth every horn-honkin' moment of stalled traffic on I80 for the 45 minutes it took me to go 10 miles to the next town. This is my Legion. I don't care if there are some mess-ups in continuity. The spirit is there. Somebody has really been listening.

Now I hope DC continues to listen. My theory is that they are testing out 2 Legions to see which one, from a business point of view, makes sense to continue. If that's true, I hope it's my Legion, the Action one.

Hey, if you have to remember the Adventure years to be part of this discussion, I'll have to bow out since I wasn't born yet...

Oh well, the Adventure years have an "iconic" status of sorts, since that's where a lot of new characters and concepts first appeared that made the Legion what it is/was. It isn't necessary to have read them all (even though I'd recommend it, now that many early issues have been reprinted in glorious b+w in Showcase).
The Legion in Action is much closer to the 70s and 80s than the 60s anyway.

If anybody wants to check out close to 900 pictures of the classic Legion go to
http://www.myspace.com/longlivethelegion1

No. No, I'm not.

Ok, I got it today! I loved it. Sure I don't love everything but the story is so powerful? dramatic? It just wins me over.

In a way I think it's far fetched that this Earth-Man movement actually convinced all of Earth that Krypton never existed and Superman was from Smallville originally. Nice to see the Legion still operating off earth as well as the UP.

Big bad? Is Universo originally from Earth?

The Justice League? It's fun. I recently read all the old Adventure issues where these guys got rejected (except Absorbancy Boy/Earth Man). I became a fan of Spider-Girl in v4 so I hope she IS under a spell. Same with Golden Boy. B

I think the founders should've wiped the floor with them.

Back to Superman and three of my faves! Gim mentions Yera! #305 was my first issue ever so that warmed my heart.

Gary Frank just took the prize from Dennis Calero for drawing freaky kids. I mean the panel with "Long Live Humans" may be the scariest thing I've ever seen in a comic.

And ofcourse the page Gary already posted with Invisible Kid II, Phantom Girl, Ultra Boy, Violet and Blok! BLOK!!!

Blok has never looked better. The rest?! Ugh! Phantom Girl and Invisible Kid I don't mind. Ultra Boy and Violet? Maybe the worse costumes I've ever seen them in. Same goes for Cosmic Boy.

I am really enjoying the art! But the freaky eyes and some of the costumes I am not.

I am nitpicking. I love this issue.

Some v4 ties? The unpopular Legion and the red sun just remind me of Black Dawn.

Hard to say, 'Earth Man' seems to have a lot of powers, such as whatever he did to blast aside Cosmic Boy's batarang barrage. We only see Blok, Violet, Ultra Boy, Phantom Girl and Invisible Kid before he adds the founders to his arsenalm 'though, so it's not clear how he did that trick. (Perhaps Tellus was in a tube we didn't see? Or was he absorbing Cos' power right then and there to block the attack?)

And hey, great rationale for why they aren't killing the Legionnaires. He wants them alive, so that he can steal their powers!

Major bonus points from me for mentioning Yera. She's hardly my favorite (and, to be fair, I don't think she was meant to be seen as a very likable character...), but I totally respect that she's part of the continuity I love.

It's a good thing they printed a second run, I missed 858 when it first came around, and it was sold out at my local store until this new run showed up, so I got to read 858 and 859 back to back.

[deep, ominous voice] In the future, all costumes will be sleeveless... and '80s punk. Even the hair. [/deep, ominous voice]

Okay, so I've only just started reading the Levitz/Giffen Legion run (I'm only about half a year-- 6 issues-- in); however, there are elements here that clearly draw from that. No question. And I do like that. It makes time a bit more linear in that maybe what I'm reading now could lead to what's being written by Johns. As someone who's mostly familiar with the re- and threeboots, it works nicely for me. But that's just me.

There are definitely elements I don't like though. Chief among my complaints is the art. I really don't care for Gary Frank's style or how it lends itself to the Legion. I get what he's going for-- that gritty feel-- but it just leaves me cold. The costume redesigns are... eh. Some are better than others, obviously. The expressions just bug the hell out of me. And Clark looks young... not in a good way. He's not Superboy anymore.

The story, while compelling, is also rather reminiscent of the Daxam xenophobia plot (reboot era). I get that it has deeper ties to the Legion and stronger ramifications but I feel as though it's a story that's been told before. More than once, even. But Johns does make it compelling (I'm still a fangirl, after all) and I definitely want to know what's coming next. It's sort of cool to see the rejects tearing the Legion apart. It was the seeds they sowed, after all...

Surprisingly, I like Drake and Dawny (who I have not been so fond of so far in LoSH v2). I always like Gim-- he's so nice!-- and here, with his care for his wife and everything... I felt like that was right. (Only the reboot got his personality wrong. But then they killed him so whatever.)

I'm wondering about Garth, Imra and Rokk, though, and the situation with the Legion at the moment. It's only been hinted at and I'm anxious to get a fuller picture. Who's leading, where are the survivors not in stasis, how'd the others get into stasis, which members of the espionage squad disappeared, etc. etc. (We haven't seen Dreamy, Brin or Projectra since Lightning Saga and KK, Starman and Una are in the present but what of the rest of Lu?)

Point: Very enjoyable tale so far. Especially interesting for me as the members are mainly ones I'm learning about from the older sources at the same time. I just hope the story carries on at a good pace and the art improves. (Though that last one may be a vain hope.)

Story: A+

Really enjoying it --- and it does a great job of capturing the classic Legion.

Artwork: B-

Gary Frank's new gritty style is mostly appropriate for a tale of a grim Legion future, but as others have stated, there are too many superfluous ink links.

Costume designs: C-

Some deserve a failing grade (Ultra Boy, Invisible Kid, Lightning Lad, Shrinking Vi). The best ones are those used for Wildfire (looks like a transparent body suit) and Dawnstar. The rest are just meh. Colossal Boy's costume is a big step down from the Cockrum classic.

True but at least he's not looking like a giant cowboy.
I've always felt that some "classic" things should be left well enough alone.
anywho..

More Legion out there is hunky dory with me. I like the story too. Someone mentioned Nardo upthread but I thought "Universo" while reading it the first time.

Come to think of it it looks a lot like the Blight hit 'ol Mother Terra.

JLA 3008 eh? Looks like I got my wish for a JLA to compete with the Legion. Not necessarily members that I would have chosen though, I see a golden opportunity here to create some 30th Century sci-fi type "Legacy" characters either blown or thrown away.
darnit.

Is this an "Adult Legion" like the guys in the end of the Superman/Batman LSV story? There's not even a suggestion that they might have called on their friend Superboy to save their hash nope, always they talk to Superman as if that's expected, they're his age group, peers.

It plucks at the old heart strings, it does.

Those JLA guys look more "alien" than the non-Earth legionnaires. I think this sort of conflict has more traction than the youth-adult one - it's a lot darker and sets the stage for more diverse action.

Nardo certainly does come to mind, but I'd see him as the guy running the prison under some more powerful authority. Maybe McCauley is president of Earth again.

The art's a bit of a jolt, as it is every time they change artists, but it works for me. Saturn Girl with big blue eyes - she looks all innocent, and I bet she's more iron-butt than ever. The costumes look more realistic and individual than in other versions.

Good theory and I was thinking of one villain that no villan have ever done in many times - turning the planet against the super team - as he did to the Legion at least three times - he stands as the vilest villain ever in the Legion history: UNIVERSO!!! That's my theory - he may found a way to hypnotize the Rejects and make the sun go red. Who else can do that? Maybe a combo of him, Leland McCauley (or Ra's Al Ghul), and Brainiac? Hmmm...I will wait and see to see if my theory is wrong or not.

I think it's Universo too... he ran a work camp once just like Nardo... remember when he kidnapped all of the "strong-willed" legionnaires including Nura. Maybe she's in the camp. Fingers crossed.

Universo does seem to be the obvious threat, based on his past attempts at world domination, and it would fit his M.O. quite well.

Is it just me, or is anyone else feeling a bit like the Earth just went "Nazi"? With their efforts to purify Earth (humans only, and substituting aliens for Jews). Also the black armbands the Rejects are wearing with the red Superman logo...a bit reminiscent of a Nazi Swastika (at least with the color scheme)! It's like they turned Kal into a 30th Century Hitler!!!

On the whole, there's a real mixture of all preboot Legion at once here. You have the team based on the 70's & 80s timeframe (based on their uniforms and historic references, etc.), but heavily pulling from the Adventure era of the 60s (all the Rejects except for Absorbancy Boy, who was 70s), the "Legion Underground" aspect of the Universo story where the Earth turned against the Legion. Part of the team on the run hid out in the Batcave back then. You've also got the alien prison camp (a la Nardo). And touching on the Hitler/Nazi comparison from earlier, Superboy and Hitler actually swapped minds briefly back in Adventure #314!!!! <insert Twilight Zone sound effect here> Coincidence?? Maybe not!

I've really got to give props to Johns for this generations-spanning tale!! Way to draw from the LSH's rich history, Geoff!! I can't wait for the next issue!!!!!!!

Oh, and having Eyeful Ethyl as a teacher is hilarious!!! What other profession requires eyes in the back of your head?