Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Someday, Levitz will leave...

...so who should replace him?

My vote goes to Andy Diggle.

His Adam Strange mini-series from 2004 was, in my opinion, everything that the Legion has been at its finest.

And as for Diggle being somewhere around 35-40 years of age, it's worth remembering that DnA were no spring chickens when they took over the Legion.

When I imagine Diggle doing Legion, I imagine him taking it in a 5YL direction, only it would be 5YL done right! No convolutions, no glacial pacing, no character assassinations, and no idiotic and self-indulgent plot twists!

No offense intended to Levitz fans, but I believe that this retro incarnation of the Legion is a nostalgia trip bringing it closer and closer to outright irrelevance. And bringing Giffen in to co-write is not the answer, in my opinion. Giffen had his chance, and depending on who you ask, he either blew it disastrously or crafted an unjustly villified masterpiece. Obviously, I'm of the former belief. But even so, let's face facts -- 5YL did not sell well, and that's all that matters to the publisher in the end. I am firmly convinced that Diggle could produce a Legion not unlike early DnA Legion -- tough and state-of-the-art, yet also commercially viable.

Please excuse the rant, but this was something that had been building up in me for a long time. People are welcome to disagree, and are encouraged to contribute their own suggestions as to who should write the Legion after Levitz leaves.

Irrelevant? Relevant? In what way? I can't think of a single comic book I read that is relevant. Relevant as in "interesting," or relevant as in,... well, I'm not sure what you mean. What do you mean?

note to self: next time you try three times to delete the apostrophe, see if it's dirt on the screen.

Irrelevant in that I believe there is nothing fresh or state-of-the-art about its current incarnation, and that it's coasting on a wave of nostalgia for the way it was 30 years ago. I think unless it gets a treatment similar to what DnA did, and fast, it might even get cancelled.

I suspect that the problems with the current run of the Legion are as much about Editorial demands and the restrictions they impose as they are about Levitz as a writer.



I could be wrong, but if I'm right, it wouldn't actually matter who took over the writing chores. I don't believe that even "big name" writers produce their best work without an editor strong enough to bring out their strengths and tone down their weaknesses. However, I also don't believe that Editorial should take the reins from a writer and constantly push them to write what the Editorial decrees will move product, at the expense of the writer's belief in what would produce a good story.

It hasn't been remarked on much here that I recall, but I think a major component of Levitz' success last time out was Karen Berger. I think they had a rapport and a good give-and-take that simply hasn't been there this time out. Even leaving aside some of the major or minor continuity WTF?!s that other readers have brought up. Berger's touch was not something I necessarily took notice of back in the day, but I can very much see the difference in the finished product now that she's long gone.

Cleome, I totally agree about Karen Berger. The difference between Legion with her and Legion without her is staggering. Given Levitz's sexist comments a couple years ago, I'd even suspect that the strong female characters in Legion were more her doing, and maybe Jenette Kahn's doing, too, than Levitz's.

For a moment, I even considered suggesting that Berger return to editing the Legion, given that she's already editing one DCnU book, Dial H, but then I thought, her time, like Levitz and Giffen's has passed. It's time for a fresh set of eyes all around.

There's a really good editor named Andy Schmidt who masterminded the first Annihilation event from Marvel a few years ago, and also edited the first 24 issues of X-Factor. Last I heard, he was working for IDW, but that might not be the case anymore. I think he'd be perfect for Legion.

I'd like to see Diggle have a go.

I think Cleome is dead right too though. With DC editorial as it is now, any writer is destined to fail or at best produce a hamstrung, irrelevant (as Fanfie define it) product. Berger was and still is a master editor. If only Didio and Johns could be fired and she could run the whole damn company.

I'd love to see Warren Ellis have a go with no restraint and a masterful, exciting artist. Like Steve McNiven.

I'd really like to see a young new creative genius like Brandon Graham bring his unconventional sensibilities to the series. And the less he cares about how people see "how the Legion is supposed to be" the better. Same with Joe Keatage, Kurtis Wiebe or even Nick Spencer.

Of the possible names--would absolutely love to see Peter David's spin on the Legion! And given his fondness for DC;s Silver Age the impossible name would be Grant Morrison...

Cobie, I think the problem with Ellis is that he loses interest quickly. It even happened on Planetary to some extent. He'd do a killer spin-off mini-series, though.

Korbal, I'd love it if Peter David did the Legion, too, but there seems to be a lot of bad blood between him and DC.

Good point on Ellis. Though I'd take one utterly terrific 6 issue story to cleanse the pallet between creative teams and reinstall some "new frontier-ness".

I have to agree that the editorial direction may be more important than who the actual writer is. Perhaps the more interesting question what approach should be taken with the Legion next. I'd like to see a version that embraces the idea of it having a long, complicated history, and that can draw upon that history and take it in wild and crazy new ways.

That said, I can only think that Brian Clevinger writing the Legion would be nothing short of awesome.

I get the impression that editorial mandates have indeed ravaged (ha, ravaged, get it?) Legion Lost, and contributed mightily to it's failure to thrive, but, since the Sodam Yat / Earth Man / Legion Green Lantern thing got wrapped up and buried in the memory vault, I don't feel like editorial mandates have really had anything to do with Paul's direction on the Legion of Super-Heroes title itself.

The Green Lantern ring is gone, along with the green spunk monster that was trying to pawn it off on folk. Earth Man is dead, and most of his teammates gave a hearty shrug and moved on. Mon-El remains on the team, and Shady is ever-so-cautiously being re-introduced in a more positive light, to get the stink of that last run off of her (even if some of that is happening with her off-panel, such as Invisible Jacques crediting her as his combat instructor, whose training saved his life in the recent fight with the folk working to revive Tharok, giving her some props while she's safely off-stage, to sort of set her up for a better reception when she's back on screen).

For the most part, I'd lay any blame on issues with the current run on Paul himself, and not editorial mandates (such as the inane crossover madness over at Marvel, which ends up bedeviling even writers who try to stay the hell out of it, like Peter David).

That being said, I'm seeing a lot of less issues with the writing than I was in the last couple years. Yes, 'first meeting with the Fatal Five' is irksome, but it's a design choice, and I am more willing to accept a design choice than irritating mistakes like Garth's parents being alive and Imra being and orphan and Timber Wolf having Wolverine's powers instead of his own.

I've been a loud critic of Paul's writing over the last couple years, but I think he's finally starting to regain his footing on this title, which has humbled more than it's fair share of writers who thought they could make it work.

As for replacements, I'm a big fan of Kurt Busiek, and his love of continuity porn, combined with a property with so many decades of rich, rich material to mine. (Quite a few other writers whose works I love tend to be really, really awesome at writing characters of their own design and creation, and, with characters with their own rich history, not so much...)

Add in an artist capable of drawing clean lines, attractive people and dynamic action (as well as cool futuristic backgrounds!) like Phil Jiminez or Ron Lim, suitable for a bright four-color future, and not someone with a gritty style better suited to Batman or the Punisher.

And, I've noticed as I get older, that a good colorist makes a huge difference. Whoever colored for Phil Jiminez in that Adventure run recently made the colors *pop* off of the page, and I would much prefer that to the blah colors of the last few issues of Legion Lost.

(Me not bothering to look up either of those colorists, I'll probably be shocked to find out they're the same person or something...)

Heh, I was thinking of making a similar thread to this, actually--sort-of a, "Who would you want to see on the LSH?" kinda thing.

On Levitz, I'm sorry, but I think the kinda "meh" nature of the book since at least Flashpoint has nothing to do with editorial and more that Levitz has just plain ran out of interesting ideas for the book and is going through the motions that really only appeals to fans. I mean, if I was first introduced to Legion from his last #1 and not through Johns' Superman & The Legion story, I probably would have never given a crap about them.

As for other talent--Ellis is a GREAT idea. I could sort-of see them do what he did with Iron Man--where he did a big arc and was given free-reign to take the character and his world wherever he wanted, just as long as it made the character more current and interesting.

So here's some ideas--to make it a little more interesting/challenging, I decided to use creators who are already working at DC right now, and who's never written them before:

Scott Snyder -- he's DC's newest golden boy, who's appearance on the book is guaranteed instant interest in the Legion again. While he's so far not shown himself to be the most subtle of writers, he has shown to be a writer who tries to get at the heart of a character/world and fiddle with it to see what happens which, again, I think the Legion could definitely use.

Justin Jordan -- Between his brilliant and ironically gutsy The Strange Talent of Luther Stode and his small sampling of DC work in Team 7, he's shown he can be very ballsy and creative and write a team book where every character has their own unique voice and character.

Brian Azzarello -- His recent work in Wonder Woman's shown he can revamp a book without taking away the heart of it and what made it work, and his recent Spaceman shows he can do some interesting sci-fi.

John Layman -- His work on Chew shows he can create wildly creative and powerful work, and his Detective run has been deceptively simple--showing "classic" rogue confrontations but often in new and interesting ways.

Michael Green / Mike Johnson -- Their Supergirl run has been consistently solid, with great characterization and some awesome sci-fi ideas.

I would also consider Joe Keatinge, but he hasn't written anything for DC YET, so not part of the parameters I set up.

And just for funsies, here's some artists I thought of:

Jim Lee -- He has said that there are two DC works he is killing to draw for, and that's Wonder Woman and Legion. Plus, like with Snyder, Legion's bound to get on the top-ten again just on his name alone.

Travel Foreman -- He's shown to be great at doing creative designs and dynamic pages, and I think his design of the future would be exciting, if his depiction of Krypton in Action #13's any indication.

Chris Burnham -- Brilliant storytelling, and his art has that great mix of realism and cartooning that I think works well with superhero comics.

Sami Basri -- His art is just beautiful, and I'm not just talking about his women, and his work on Voodoo's shown that he could do an awesome sci-fi book. Plus the fact that DC didn't put him on another book after Voodoo was cancelled is just criminal to me.

I would also be curious to see what Greg Capullo, Ivan Reis, Cliff Chiang, Nicola Scott, Yanick Paquette, and Kenneth Rocafort would do with the Legion, but frankly, I like 'em where they are right now too much to suggest them moving.

Well DC could have got Paul Levitz an editor that was trained by the original Legion editor Mort Weisinger, an editor and writer just like Paul who reached the top spot at one of the two big comic book companies and then lost that top spot, they could even rotate on writing and editing each others stories, play off one another with the Legionnaires caught in the middle.

Could Paul Levitz and Jim Shooter get along as equals and become the new Siegel and Hamilton, the possibilities in my mind for stories are staggering?

But alas the chances of this happening are slim to none!

Jill Thompson.

Because she makes everything better.

Tough question. While I am very much looking forward to seeing if Giffen can rekindle the spark Levitz had when they were working together, I agree that the time has come for a fresh persepctive all around.

I really have no clue on someone to suggest. I'm almost to the point where I'd like to see a complete and total unknown take a whirl.

But if pressed for a "name" writer... Grant Morrison could either be spectacularly awesome or a spectacular letdown. Whatever happened, I've no doubt his would be a run to watch.

My enjoyment of DC titles currently is probably at its lowest point ever, but writers who are on books I currently do quite like at DC are Peter Milligan (Stormwatch) and Geoff Johns (Aquaman, JLoA).

I'm pretty sure both of them could do some fun things. Johns has plenty of detractors here, but I'm not really one of them. I loved the Superman/LSH arc in ACTION. It's not his fault it was so popular, we ended up saddled with Earth Man on the team. He had some fun backups in ADVENTURE while the LSH title was in limbo.

In fact, I won't be surprised if, when this run of LSH heads for oblivion, as- let's face it- has been the trend ever since the New 52 sales bump went quickly away, one of 2 things happen:

The LSH is cancelled and not seen again for quite some time, or...

the book is given to Johns, who has had majorly successful runs on formerly looked-down on properties like JSA, Hawkman and Aquaman.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2010/12/07/top-50-comic-book-writers-master-list/

So far the Legion has had, 10, 12, 20, 21, 27,
29, 35, 40, 52, 56, 57, 79, 99, 100, 107, 123.

For what it's worth...

At some point, (probably not too far off in the distance,) another reboot will be foisted on everyone. It'll probably be the norm from now on. There will always be a need to drag in new readers as the old ones will age and may decide to stop spending their money on comics. There's always noise about starting off fresh
because all the baggage of an over sized cast of characters within a single book may deter new readers. Also, they spout off stuff about how everything's gotten so complicated and things need to be simplified.

When I was a kid, I was drawn to the Legion because it was about a group of diverse, specially/uniquely powered, young people unified for a common cause. (AND!!!) It took place in the ***FUTURE!!!!*** Most of the villains seemed two-dimensional to me. Character driven stories were my favorites. It was great to see the various characters interacting with each other, given their different backgrounds. Maintaining
professionalism, demonstrations of loyalty, comraderie and a dedication to the cause, even when there was friction or personal difficulties. Also enjoyed the introduction of new species/planets. Although it was
frustrating as well because so many of them were interesting and I would often want to see more of them. Let's not forget the Sci-Fi elements. All of this in one book! Something else else for everyone.

Maybe this formula just doesn't work anymore, or maybe it's been worked to death. Over the years, there's been noise about how the series deters the talent, as well. It was exciting when I heard the series was going to be animated. Of course, I wondered how it would be received. If the fans of the comic weren't as unified as the characters in the comic were, why would it be any different with the animated series? It was surprising to find that most of what I read, as far as fan response was concerned, was mostly positive. It didn't last anyway, but different things come into play within that venue.

So basically...

If it were my Comic Book Company...If it were my property...If I was ***God...***

(Aside from regulating company-wide-reboots to once every 50 years,) I'd give the Legion a rest. At least for a couple of years. I've posted elsewhere that a title dedicated to fleshing out reality in the 31st Century would be a cool move. (Personally, I like the sound of "Adventure(s)...in the 31st Century!")
Doesn't have to be "Legion," but a lot of characters introduced in the Legion title(s) that are not Legionnaires could be used. New concepts could be explored. Maybe the existence of other (differently motivated,) groups could be discovered/introduced. Politically driven stories; More Sci-Fi; Villain Character development; Societal Issues explored: More Magic; More exploration; Love & Sex, etc.

If the Future isn't enough of a draw, than I say, (seemingly,) Kill off Kara in the next cataclysmic company-wide crossover coup. (Wiping Mouth.) Transplant her to the future, permanently. Again, it doesn't have to be Legion, (the Universe is HUGE, getting HUGER everyday, I hear,) but Legion fans would be drawn to the title. Legionnaires could appear, in solo, (or solo+,) stories that aren't "Legion" stories. Or a trio of Legionnaires could make an incidental cameo appearance every now and then. Whetting the appetite for a Legion title whenever it returns. Historically speaking, I'm stuck on the 5YL stories. The Bierbaums drew
on a lot of the already existent history. They took obscure characters and reintroduced/revitalized them. They were able to juggle all these characters. They gave a *Fine Read.* (Sigh) I know this version has a lot of non-fans. (Sigh.) They're probably not available anyway.

If the *Powers* want to attract younger readers, they might want to think about *Younger* talent. I don't know how the industry works. A couple of young apprentices working under a seasoned writer/creator with a healthy exchange of ideas/concepts/directions being thrown around. Good, productive brainstorming, "keeping it fresh." Not that I'm going to change my position and shell out cash for something I'm no longer excited about. I just hope someone gets it right at some point. It was a really nice diversion for me when I was young in the seventies. The future was a lot more exciting back then. (Sigh...)

I think one of the major draws for me about the classic Legion tales, and something I wish could remain / return, is that they portrayed a future that I would want to live in.

No Blights, no arbitrary planets exploding just for the shock value, no millions of throwaway casualties, no universes unraveling, no ripped-from-the-headlines race-supremacist xenophobic immigrant nonsense.

Yes, bad things can happen. Heroes can die. Daxam can get reshaped into a big bust of Darkseid's head. But things can get better, too, not just worse and grim and soul-wearyingly futile.

That's very much rowing against the tide, these days, when *all* comics seem to be about how much damage they can inflict 'deconstructing' the heroes, the setting, even the entire *concept* of heroism or nobility or 'goodness.'

'Boy scouts' are unrealistic? So what? I'm reading a story about aliens with super-powers that use technology that utterly scoffs at the laws of physics. Them being *heroes* (and the setting they operate in not being filled with brutality and nihilism) is the least of the disbelief I have to suspend!

I'll throw my vote in with Diggle, though I really like the idea of giving it to Johns. For whatever reason, when I read through his run of the Legion, I really enjoyed it.

The Legion just needs someone fresh. This run is, to be blunt, boring. And that is ridiculous is a series set a thousand years from now where the technology alone could be so wildly imaginative and exciting that it could carry the series! Why do we have to have the same villains we've had for thirty years? Can't anyone come up with someone new?

To be fair, I didn't grow up on Levitz. I wasn't around to see the glory days of his run and so I have absolutely no sentimental attachment to him as a writer. None. And, to be frank, if I was a new comic fan and picked up this series right now? I'd never buy it. No way! It's boring!

Sorry for the tirade here, but I've been needing to get that off my chest. XD

This. This all over the place. What I love about the Legion most of all is that it's GOOD. These people are GOOD. The future is GOOD. I'm not saying I want a perfect Candyland, but I want it to be...well...a little brighter than the world I live in.

Not that I didn't enjoy the darker stories. The Blight storylines were extremely well-written and I really enjoyed them. But even in that story there was a "happy" ending. There was hope at the end.

I would NOT want to live in the Threeboot future. And that is, at it's core, probably why I don't like that run of the series.

...well...other than it KILLED MY LEGION. *ahem* But that's just me being bitter...XD

I'd be happy to see any new writer who had never written the legion before.

That said, I dream of a Legion book done by Orson Scott Card. I know it will never happen, but whatever, it'd be awesome.

I think I'd support a new writer, too. But not Card. I know he largely keeps his homophobia out of his fiction writing, but after reading some of his comments, I wouldn't be able to get them out of my head.

Jonathan Hickman and Scott Lobdell have both stated that they'd like to write the Legion at some point. One, I'd love. One, less so. Exhibit A= Johnny Storm's return from death after death after death in the Negative Zone. Exhibit B= New 52 Omen/Lilith Clay.

Guess which gets the love and which gets the hate.

First with the Threeboot: I think the point of that was that the Legion was supposed to change the world, to be a future we would want it to be. That Legion was one that wasn't just a superhero team, but a political/societal revolution.

But anyway.

I get what you mean with that. My personal favorite future-based sci-fi comic is, to be honest, Transmetropolitan. At one point had this great monologue by it's lead, saying basically, "The future is inherently a good thing." No matter how dark and hopeless things might seem, there's always SOMETHING, somewhere, to hold onto for hope. That's my feeling, anyway.

To be fair to Lobdell, his run on Red Hood & The Outlaws and his start on Superman has been AMAZING so far, and I honestly do enjoy his take on Teen Titans.

And speaking of Hickman and the Legion--Hickman posted this on his Twitter recently. Does that line-up page remind you of something? A certain monitor board, perhaps?

Is Hickman the guy writing the new LEGION-sized Avengers title (rumored to have 18+ memebrs)?

I'm looking forward to that. I like as many characters as they can throw at me, alongide the obvious ones you *know* are going to be there.

Yeah- and he's the guy who created the Future Foundation and brought in the moloid kids, Bently, Dragon Man, etc. to populate it.

He also wrote the secret historyish SHIELD book.

I think the membership's going to be around 24 fairly quickly. Or, at least there's 6 more characters being thrown in the mix. Doesn't mean all of the original 18 stick around, I suppose. The scope suggested would seem to indicate that most of them *would* however.