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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1006271 08/28/21 08:40 AM
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Yep, that too. But folks were even like "Look she has green eyes!!" laugh

But I have to admit, even though I was on the periphery of this, it was cool watching the infancy of online fandom interacting with the creators in near real-time. It was all very positive as I remember it.

Last edited by Gaseous Lad; 08/30/21 11:23 AM.

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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1006560 09/02/21 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Invisible Brainiac
Legion of Super-Heroes 67
"Insect Fear"

Issue Information


Summary

The Legion's first official mission comes back to haunt them as they follow up on a lead on Tangleweb. Cosmic Boy makes the tactical decision to split the team, leading to a few ruffled feathers. He brings Leviathan, Andromeda, Apparition, Chameleon, Kinetix and Spark (whom Leviathan calls power players). Brainiac 5, Invisible Kid, Saturn Girl, Triad, Shrinking Violet and XS (whose super-speed Cos says isn't much use on a spaceship), are asked to stay behind.

Can the away team including an emotional, guilt-stricken Leviathan and a xenophobic Andromeda save the day? The Legionnaires encounter Tangleweb pillaging a ship. Spark refuses a direct order to back down and gets captured; Tangleweb also takes Cosmic Boy before being driven away.

Meanwhile, Invisible Kid and Triad react to being left behind in different ways. Invisible Kid borrows a government ship to follow. And for Triad at least, her reaction puts her in danger, as she gets beaten by some White Triangle goons!

Thoughts

Minor quibble, but the story title is probably the worst one so far. It seems more apt for a horror movie than for a Legion comic, though it could also refer to Andromeda's disgust towards the spider-creatures.

The story opens with Tangleweb attacking a ship, and we learn that it actually eats the brains of its prey in order to get knowledge and power. Huh, interesting.

Leviathan is still feeling guilt for Kid Quantum's death, which makes him even more hot-headed and temperamental than usual. He handles the meeting poorly by insulting Saturn Girl, insensitively telling the ones left behind not to take the decision personally when they are obviously feeling inadequate (much like he himself does over James' death!), and deals with his guilty feelings poorly.

Zoe is actually the one who calms him down; she adroitly helps defuse the tension by asking about Tangleweb (notice that she speaks up instead of Laurel or Ayla!). You can also see her smiling happily at him and touching his arm to console him. Maybe she can be the Beauty to his Beast?

Cosmic Boy does a better job, calmly but firmly explaining his tactical reasoning in selecting the team. His reasoning is such that even Lyle and Lu can understand, though not like, his decision. "This isn't about who's better or stronger", he says - though he leaves out telepathic Imra, super-fast Jenni and microscopic Vi; the former CAN telepathically detect Tangleweb (despite what Leviathan says) and the latter two can easily evade his attacks. He brings Tinya, possibly because her powers allow her to keep out of harm's way; why not bring the latter two?

Lyle won't take no for an answer, and even borrows a ship so he can follow the team. Why? He mentions in one panel, "You don't understand, you're going to need me." In another he says, "but they can't do without me." But he doesn't reveal why he thinks that; his invisibility and brains are useful but neither proved to be an invaluable asset against Tangleweb. Does he just really feel so confident in his abilities? As he takes off he says, "it's not like I'm going to survive this anyway." So was all that "you'll need me" just false bravado? Is he going more because he wants to prove to himself that he can stand alongside his more powerful teammates?

"Time to repent your sins, pusbag. You're busted!" Oh Tinya, you go girl.

I also like that ships are now equipped with a device that can track Tangleweb. That shows quite a lot of foresight!

The Legion's fight against Tangleweb is terribly one-sided. Despite there being seven Legionnaires, they're taken apart like amateurs! Ayla gets in too close even though Cos warns her back, and if she hadn't been an established character she could possibly have been killed like James was! Andromeda needs to be told to use her non-contact powers; Zoe's powers can't hold her cage together (!) and Cham and Tinya do absolutely nothing during the fight. Gim also makes himself a bigger target - exactly what Cos told him NOT to do during their first fight against Tangleweb!

We can see that Andromeda is genuinely concerned for her teammates - she calls out Spark's name.

Gim, at least, manages to pull the remaining Legionnaires together in Cos' absence. With a little encouragement from Zoe, he prioritizes AND comes up with the good idea to have Andromeda provide propulsion, plus he knows the first priority is to get Cos and Ayla back safe. He's also sharp enough to notice that Tangleweb is smarter.

The five remaining Legionnaires catch up to Tangleweb on a planet full of spider-like creatures too. Uhoh. Thank goodness they have their flight rings.

Finally, we head back to Earth to see Triad again. Her mixed reactions are interesting to say the least; she argues with her selves as if each is a different person. She's also ashamed to let the rest see what she's like, which explains why she walked out. Once she calms down we see her act rationally. Sadly, her splitting up of her selves gets her in trouble as Neutral is cornered by a bunch of thugs; at three against one the odds are bad to say the least. The issue ends with Orange and Purple feeling Neutral's pain, and Neutral left for dead.

Whew. The writers sure know how to up the stakes. We have the entire away team AND Triad in deathly peril by the end of the issue.

Invisible Kid seems to be the writers' darling here; he's set up to be the big hero (or a sad casualty?) by the next issue. I have to say he's one of my least favorite Legionnaires here. And though Leviathan does show some good leadership, I don't like his poor handling of his emotions either. On the other hand, both boys ARE written very realistically (especially considering their ages - they'd both be around 16 I think).

This is a pretty good issue as the action flows along really well and we still get quite a lot of good character moments. Most of the Legionnaires on the away team (except Chameleon) get to do something, and even many of the ones left behind do too.

We also see that the team is in need of serious work. Though they do work together alright, they're not as tight as they could be - the fight against Tangleweb, and the disastrous meeting, show that they still have a lot to work on.

Chris Renaudi's guest pencils are OK; he gives the Legionnaires very expressive faces which are appropriate for each scene (except for the middle panel on page 20 where Leviathan looks like he's about to faint, and the one on page 21 where he looks constipated).


Holy Cats of Egypt!
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1006561 09/02/21 11:11 AM
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This issue didn't exactly inspire me to get going with this week's entry, primarily due to the villain.

Tangleweb is a different type of villain for a Legion story. Inspired by Tolkien's Shelob or human's discomfort around spiders and other creepy crawlies? Somehow, I find him hard to take seriously with his Satyr bottom half, mechanical parts; never liked these composite characters. In his first appearance, Tangleweb was partly hidden in the dark, we just saw one mechanical arm and his upper half, so he looked like a spider. Adrian Tchaikovsky wrote a novel, Children of Time, based on the development of a sentient spider civilization and its first contact with humans. Tangleweb, on the other hand, seems all too human in his behaviour and motivations. Except for the brain eating bit....

Apart from the big creepy, the character developments save the issue for me.

Rokk continues to be an effective leader, recognizing the importance of splitting the group into mission teams. He holds his ground despite grumpy opposition. Lyle, Triad and Gim are angry. Lyle takes matters into his own hands, defying Rokk, then going behind his back to follow the team on his own. It's not clear if it's ego or undisclosed information that makes Lyle so certain that he'll be needed on the mission. Triad shows she has trouble controlling one common emotion after she storms out of the meeting; Neutral stalks from the other two, fed up with their bickering.

Confronting Tangleweb, Andromeda really lets the team down. She might have taken him out with one blow, but she won't even touch the creature. It takes Gim, acting as leader once Rokk is captured, to direct her to use her heat vision and add speed to their ship as they track Tangleweb. Gim takes charge in Rokk's absence, but only after Zoe encouraged him.

The spiders surrounding the Legionnaires at the end lead into the next issue but they're not the cliffhanger: there's a much more effective ending with Triad Neutral assaulted by White Triangle thugs, possibly left for dead.


Holy Cats of Egypt!
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1006562 09/02/21 11:17 AM
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I think I'll hold my overall thoughts until after LSH 68, the second part of the Tangleweb story.

I will say that Gim continues to be an underwhelming leader. He was incredibly undiplomatic, making fun of Imra, shouting at Lyle and Lu and others for not agreeing with Cos' tactical decision to split the team. (also a nice character bit there, with Jenni pleading her case with Rokk instead of yelling!) I wouldn't follow Gim. I do appreciate the writers coming up with someone unsuited to be a leader though - it's more realistic!

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1006622 09/05/21 06:38 AM
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My take on this is that no one comported themselves very well from the inter team department.

Gim kept moping, Rokk and Lyle kept clashing, Lu storms out in a huff. Gim acts like a jerk. Not a great team look - and perhaps that?s the point - the team has grown very quickly and the team dynamic is very different. Rokk not listening to Lyle as to WHY he and the less powerful Legionnaires may be needed as was Lyles failure to articulate that quickly.

Interesting seeing Brainy and Andy giving each other side glances at the Legion HQ splash page. Also a fawning Kinetix and a moping Vi.

The Tangleweb Jr. fight was interesting, as the team is easily overpowered partiallly due to a reluctant Andromeda. But when they get going, it was interesting to see the cruiser flight augmented by a Daxamite - the first time this happens in this universe, if I am not mistaken!

Great double cliffhanger ending one for the next LSH, the net for Legionnaires!


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1006625 09/05/21 07:28 AM
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yeah, Zoe fawning over Gim. And Zoe was the one who broke the tension re Gim yelling at Imra over Kid Quantum's death.

indeed, most of them came off looking bad - though I agree, it was realistic (and perhaps the point). Cos even references their rapid growth, I believe.

Lyle's "but you need me" bit is interesting. And this issue shows that Lyle was becoming a fast fave of the writers - he already saved the day in Planet Hell, now he's poised to save the day vs. Tangleweb again too. Oh, AND he invented the flight rings. Is there anything Lyle can't do? (I'll stop there, as I know what's coming next - but for someone reading along and in order, I can imagine some readers being like "Lyle again?"

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1006711 09/07/21 03:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Invisible Brainiac
Legionnaires 24
Me, Myself and I
Issue information

Summary:

The Legionnaires on Earth really to help save Triad, though they may not be able to do so without delving into her past and her experience of having 3 different personalities. it turns out that Triad is extremely unique among Carggites.

They also try to track down the thugs who beat Triad up, and learn that there might be a connection both to the Planet Hell case and the attack on the nightclub the Legionnaire girls tried to visit.

Thoughts:

Right off the bat this issue contradicts the last. The textbox tells us, "When Cosmic Boy took the unprecedented step of excluding the LEAST POWERFUL Legionnaires from a mission...". This despite Cos saying it's NOT about powers or who is best, but about who is needed (though of course, Leviathan himself had already contradicted Cos last issue). Not hard to see why many of the Legionnaires left behind were upset.

These "weaker" Legionnaires are certainly NOT comparatively useless: XS, Violet and Saturn Girl display good teamwork and use each of their powers to track an abandoned hideout of the racist thugs, while Brainiac 5 works to save Triad.

The abandoned hideout is disturbing for 2 reasons: the first, that a level of racism and hate such as that still exists in the 30th century; and two, Violet remembered the thugs Andromeda went after - and didn't bring back - also wore the same symbol: a White Triangle. Oooh. Violet's still too shy to tell her teammates though.

The Carggites won't help and Earth's hospitals don't know much about Carggite physiology. Brainy's experiences tell him that Triad's not like the other Carggites, which may be the key. And we delve into a very sad story...

Triad was born with each of her 3 selves experiencing different emotions, unlike the typical Carggite. An unaccepting Carrgite society persecuted her for it. It was so bad that her father left and her mother committed suicide - but a guardian angel came in the form of her grandmother.

Interestingly, Luornu's mom's name is Iruna Durgo. So she took her mom's surname. I'm guessing that Granny Murlu is her maternal grandmother and that Lu's dad blamed her mom's genes for the differences.

It's ironic that Granny Murlu encouraged Lu's differences but didn't exhibit her own to Lu until she died. I'm not surprised that she didn't; her deathbed comments make it seem like she was forcibly taught to not display her differences. And one of her comments is spot on: "You come on! It's easy to preach, but living on this world with these feelings..." It's hard to be yourself when almost the entire world tells you it's wrong. What's surprising is that she didn't share her own differences with Lu, while encouraging Lu to embrace her own. Perhaps she didn't want to display her individual personalities as it would be hard for her not to dredge up the painful memories of her own past?

Triad's differences - and Purple's reckless side - are displayed again when they make their first attempt at reintegration. Sometimes these differences can be a good thing, sometimes they are bad. It's odd that Granny Murlu says they're good for a Carggite's mental health, but we've seen Lu's 3 personalities give her a lot of trouble!

Reboot, Omni, razsolo and I had a really good discussion about they nature of the differences. Our consensus is that the majority of Carggites are born fully identical; for the minority with differences, the degree of difference can vary per individual with some successfully suppressing any outward display and others not being able to do the same.

Triad manages to escape the mental hospital she was put in, and lucky the ship she tries to break into was owned by one RJ Brande!

Saturn Girl has a moment of doubt on Brande's reaction to Triad's differences, but she tests her suspicions and thankfully they are unfounded.

One bright spot in the barbaric way these hospitals are run? It looks like you're only sent there if you're a ward of the state, or perhaps if your parents send you there voluntarily. Lu was able to stay out of them while she was under her Granny's care.

Cue the 2nd attempt at reintegration. Triad Purple and Orange overcome their differences by merging; their personalities are so far apart that it's the only way. Even with their merger, they hesitate briefly upon seeing Neutral's agony. But it works, Triad is safe, and their differing personalities may actually have contributed to their survival this time.

The story ends with Brande vowing to find the thugs responsible, and Violet worrying about Andromeda's possible complicity.

The story is a good allegory for homosexuality. Being born with it; some people thinking it can be "cured" and suppressed; it's something that you can't always tell about a person just by their exhibited behaviors or appearance. The intent is good and so is the execution - the messages aren't hammered into our heads, but rather they unfold through the touching story of someone we have grown to care about (and the parallels aren't too obvious either - I certainly didn't pick up on it when I first read this issue at about 15 years old).

There are 2 inkers for this issue, Tom Simmons and W.C. Carani. You can tell which inked which page; the Simmons pages seem a bit more rough and the characters' eyes are a bit off. The art is serviceable though and the action is very easy to follow.

This is a good issue and it fulfilled its purpose - it made me care more for a character, it moved the overall plot along, and it left me with a good message.


Holy Cats of Egypt!
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1006712 09/07/21 03:47 AM
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It's a bit of a joke that, in comics, everyone from a given planet looks the same; it saves the artist time. For a change, Cargg is a planet on which each triad has to display one common personality (and probably look the same as well). For some reason, Luronu is different. She's not alone (unlike Mekt Ranzz who has usually been the only known Winathian single) but, once her grandmother dies, she's shunted off to a psychiatric hospital/orphanage where they try to cure her. There's some tolerance for the "problem" of individuality, as long as you're kept from Carggite society; you're not put to death or exiled off-planet but you're certainly a pariah.

If it weren't for Lu's grandmother, you have to figure she'd be pretty messed up. Nevertheless, part of her still feels the shame inflicted on her as she tried to keep her history, as well as her different personalities, hidden from her teammates. It is a sad story, as IB wrote, and it's easy to see the similarities with a variety of human conditions in our time which some authorities consider aberrant and try to eradicate or, at least, keep under control. That they labelled her as a dangerous criminal once she escaped speaks to their fear of the other.

I also had to wonder why the grandmother kept her own personality individuality a secret from Luornu until she was dying. Perhaps the taboo was just that strong and ingrained. Luronu must have made some progress in accepting herself when RJ supported her - and you figure the reaction of the Legionnaires would be a big "so what" (which was Brainy's reaction), but social conditioning is powerful.

Now she faces another challenge to her existence, not to her psyche but to her very life. She really doesn't have much choice whether or not to merge with her dying self; she'll die if she doesn't. I liked how Purple acknowledged that she needed Orange. Luronu's tough and she's a survivor but she still has to come to terms with and accept her true self (selves).

I did get a kick out of the picture of Valor on both Irina Durgo's gravestone and over Grandma Murlo's bed, setting him up as a figure of religious worship.

Imra shows a surprising display of emotion, hugging R.J. when she realizes he stood up for Luornu.

Downsides of this issue: my biggest beef with the reboot is how very 20th century it looks. The hospitals could easily be from our time - and not even from the advanced ICUs of our time. The doctor has no knowledge of Carggite physiology; either the Carggites don't travel off-planet or this hospital is sub-par. You'd think there would be medical manuals for treating citizens of all U.P. planets - or at least the ability to call a Carggite doctor for a consultation. It's a minor distraction from the story; at least Brainy looks like he's got some advanced gizmos as well as an understanding of the treatment required. Deus ex Colu.

This is the first issue in the series that doesn't end with a big cliffhanger. Triad has survived - almost an afterthought to Brainiac 5, but a relief to the others. The story ends with a mystery; Violet knows something about Andromeda vis-a-vis the White Triangle, but she's being cautious. There's no heart-stopping action moment; just a lead into the next chapter and some uncertainty of where Andromeda's loyalties lie.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1006724 09/07/21 08:14 AM
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You raise a very good point, FC, on why Lu's granny kept her own differences hidden - while encouraging Lu to display hers. I always thought it was because of her own conditioning, it just became habit for her...

A later issue (Legionnaires 77 I believe) would also comment that Triad's differences are "among the strongest of any Carggite". Which led me to believe that there are degrees of differences. Maybe some are more overt (i.e. Triad - if she's triplicated, you will definitely know who you're talking to!), and some, like Lu's granny, are more subtle. which could have made it easier for Granny to keep hers hidden.

I also very much liked how Purple basically accepted that Orange is strong on her own right - just not the part equipped for this particular situation. it lends an air of: each triplet is a crucial partof the whole, and each will excel in diff. situations

yeah, I did wonder about why nobody knew how to treat Carggites. Even having to call Cargg for help, and Cargg refusing to...

overall I really liked this issue, for the in-depth exploration of Triad. I'm pretty sure this issue was responsible for Triad's strong popularity through the Reboot era.

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1006756 09/08/21 08:01 AM
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I think this was possibly one of the best depiction of Triad in any 'boot. It definitely is way way better than the horror story origins that Threeboot gave her. Here, we have a comic-book explanation of why Carggites tripiclate, why the different personalities are important, and considered abhorrent to the powers that be on Cargg. Not only was Triad developed in this issue, but we also learn about her background and a large part of her world.

I did find it weird that nobody wanted to help heal her, not even the physicians on Cargg. And don't they have medical texts for these things in the future? I would have thought that anatomy and physiology of all the UP species would at least be on file somewhere...

I know I read this issue multiple times when I got it, and although I was disappointed that we didn't get any resolution for the Tangleweb story (that would have to wait another 2 weeks), we did at least get a complete story here that was not rushed nor drawn out. Indeed, looking back and comparing it with Bendis' work on his Legion, the pacing was good for this story, and for making us want more in two weeks time for the update to the team on the away mission.


Exnihil: Novelty, if he had a power, the obvious one to me would of course be "The Power of Grayskull"
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1006760 09/08/21 10:18 AM
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I agree with all the above comments, and from a story perspective, I enjoyed how they used this story to show how they could effectively run parallel storylines across the books. Its yet another outstanding example of how this creative team planned out the story while including character development and worldbuilding.

Looking back to today, Vi's role in this is interesting as she's eager to be a contributor to the team ("Try and keep me out") but also apprehensive to raise a concern that could be confrontational within her new team. I see this with introverts a lot, so its a good fit.

The moment when purple tries to re-integrate on her own freaked me out a bit, so that was well done. But the whole focus on Luornu and her story was so great; a lot of us have a moment in our lives where we don't feel that we fit in for whatever reason, so this story made Luornu very relatable. Nice redirect at the end where you are made to think that she may be dead, but Brainy walks by with an attitude of "yeah she's fine" at the end. smile


Interested in the Post-Zero Hour Reboot Legion? Check out:

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Fan Fiction: The Legion of Super-Heroes v4.1 (continuing the reboot from issue 126!) on LW or here (external)

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1007089 09/15/21 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Invisible Brainiac
Legion of Super-Heroes 68
"Sticky Situation"
Issue information

Summary:

The away team gets captured by members of Tangleweb's species, and learns that they're not hostile. Chameleon is able to communicate with the spider-creatures, and uses his shapeshifting to tell the other Legionnaires their story. Tangleweb is a terrorist on their world, and became intelligent by eating brains.

Invisible Kid catches up to the Legion and (in a major part due to luck) manages to save Cosmic Boy and Spark. Andromeda (with some tough love from Leviathan) overcomes her xenophobia enough to find a way to save the day.

Thoughts:

The issue satisfactorily resolves an "open" story arc that began way back in LSH 62, and gives many of our Legionnaires some good development.

The away team of Leviathan, Kinetix, Apparition, Andromeda and Chameleon are outnumbered 5 to 1 by members of Tangleweb's species. The odds are so staggering that Leviathan appears stunned at first; it's Apparition who asks Andromeda for a quick scan of the situation. Leviathan decides to take the offensive, which is pretty disastrous; Andromeda is the only one who has a chance to win. Despite using only her long-range heat vision, a Spider-person tears her transuit and she collapses. The other four Legionnaires get taken down quickly.

The team's definitely still getting used to working together. Kinetix gets a face full of gunk when Apparition phases right in front of her; and I don't see any of them use their flight rings to give themselves an advantage.

Back on Earth, Triad is conscious but weak. Imra scans her memories and is horrified by what she sees. She also still disapproves of Cos' decision to split the team, though frankly Triad would still have been in danger if she'd gone after Tangleweb too. I give Imra a pass here though, as Triad's beating was definitely traumatic to "see".

Leviathan's team is still alive. Andromeda realizes she merely overreacted; we realize that her attitude isn't just derision and contempt for "inferior" races but also fear and disgust for the stranger ones - particularly non-humanoids. (Now I wish she and Gates had been on the team at the same time; Gates' retorts would have been hilarious). You can't really blame her for her fear, as she'd never left Daxam before being drafted. Likely she was raised that way.

The Legionnaires use their brains, with most of them staying behind in safety while sending a phased Tinya finds Cham.

Next we enter Invisible Kid, displaying little of the cockiness and arrogance he did in previous issues. He mentally admits that he's terrified, he falls into a trap, and he has to constantly reassure himself. It makes me wonder more than ever why exactly he followed the team? Was it to prove something to them - or to himself? Seems to be more of the latter, frankly. I get that the writers wanted him there because he was the only one (besides Imra) who could translate Cham's speech, but getting him there was clumsy. And so was the addition of a captive Science Police officer who did absolutely nothing except provide a blaster for Lyle to use. Convenient, and nothing more.

"Shame Imra or Lyle aren't around to translate... but I guess they're too weak to come along on this mission huh?" Good girl, Tinya. At the same time, a sign that even the "power player" Legionnaires - as Gim put it - don't approve of dividing the team like that. Cham brilliantly uses his shapeshifting to communicate to the others, and Zoe, Tinya and Gim not only do a good job interpreting it but also defend him when Andromeda raises her doubts. Good show.

Cos and Ayla do a good job combining their powers to take out Tangleweb. Cham's strong friendship with Lyle is demonstrated with their reunion, and we learn another crucial piece of info - not only does Tangleweb use technology to become stronger, he uses brains to become SMARTER. Leviathan's observation on Tangleweb's intellect was spot on. The reunited team faces a trio of Tanglewebs.

Gim helps convince Andromeda to work past her fears and end the battle quickly. It's a practical move, though I think the writers overplayed the drama; even with Andromeda reduced to a cowering xenophobic mass you still have 7 Legionnaires and a Sci-Cop against 3 Tanglewebs - far better odds than the opening battle.

Scene ends with Cos reminding Lyle that he's leader, but not punishing him because he did save them. I approve; it's clear that Lyle wasn't following because he had vital information or anything like that. Cos also takes time to praise and encourage Gim, who also thanks Laurel. It's a satisfying ending, and as Cos points out there aren't any new stars tonight. All's well, for now.

Next up? Well, we also get a curious scene on Durla, where what appears to be a living fluid creature escapes confinement and attacks some Durlans. Uh oh.

Some thoughts on the individual Legionnaires:

Leviathan starts to mature. He's a lot less cranky this issue, and he actually deals with Andromeda quite well. It's still tough love, but he doesn't demean or bully her but appeals to reason to get her to fight. It's a very positive and welcome change.

Andromeda also comes through by working around her xenophobia to intelligently fly the Tanglewebs into the atmosphere. I'm glad the writers stopped at that; it was realistic and shows Andromeda has the makings of a smart and effective Legionnaire.

Cosmic Boy continues to grow into his leader role fairly well, asserting his authority naturally. The only poor bit was him yelling at Lyle for following them while Tangleweb was approaching, but the way he admonished Lyle while still not punishing him was good.

Lyle himself is a walking contradiction. He's outwardly cocky, but look at his face when Cos talks to him in the last page. He's clearly worried. He's definitely covering up for - for what, really? We only know he's scared this issue but it doesn't tell us much new about him except his cockiness is a facade for... approval seeking maybe?

Chameleon does a good job here, as his intelligence and craftiness shine through. It's good to know that despite his inability to speak Interlac he's just as capable as any other Legionnaire. The scene with him shaking hands with the Spider-people is good; maybe he could be an ambassador.

Spark, Apparition and Kinetix don't get to do too much, but each has her moments. Tinya and Zoe especially make a good pair standing up to Andromeda. I think these two would make good friends and would love to see them in battle together. Spark doesn't shine at all, and it would have been good for either Cos or Gim to admonish her for staying too close to Tangleweb last issue - that's what led to her capture, after all.

This is a solid issue and gives good development to Leviathan, Andromeda and Chameleon. Best of all, it all feels organic rather than forced.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1007090 09/15/21 11:25 AM
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This story is reminiscent of the Bierbaums' Legionnaires in Atlantis issue, in which Brainiac 5 managed to communicate with the Devilfish and sort everything out (which in turn was based on a Cary Bates story in SLSH #202, in which Mon-el used telepathic earplugs). Here, it's Cham who makes the connection, then retells the spiders' story in a form of charades. In all three stories, just a big misunderstanding, although this issue has a good twist of Tangleweb being a villain to his own species.

The spiders' language looks like Durlan but it isn't clear if it is Durlan, or a dialect, or Cham simply knows spiderese - or did I miss the explanation?

Lyle did help save the day after all, but it didn't appear to be based on a rational analysis of the mission or the threat. He really just served as a one man back-up force. Nevertheless, it added some layers to the character: his past with Earthgov, a bit of arrogance, independence, yet able to accept possible consequences for disobeying Rokk's orders. I doubt Brainiac 5 would have cared how much trouble he was in had he done what Lyle did.

Andromeda shows a lot of racist-driven cowardice, refusing to touch Tangleweb and taking no other action until berated by Gim. She's drawn as ugly in her anger scenes, beautiful when she succeeds in removing Tangleweb and his hench-spiders. She remains pretty grumpy, though. Kinetix, on the other hand, fits right in.

The art was a bit rough in places but there was a lot of effort put into the Legionnaires' expressions (and I liked Lyle's big hair).

Rokk's comment about weak members annoyed a lot of people. Expect consequences! Tinya gave Gim a dig over it, Imra resented it as she assumed leadership, in Rokk's absence, to find Luronu's attackers.

The ceremony on Durla is mysterious and leads into the next issue. It looks like one of these science experiment gone wrong stories and the view of Durla is eerie, strange and a bit creepy.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1007091 09/15/21 01:01 PM
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Loved Zoe and Tinya defending Cham vs. Andromeda.

Gim does get his chance to step up as a leader - first telling Andromeda off after she starts being racist, and taking a tough love approach vs. Andy. (His aggression does get his team captured in the first place though).

I liked how the spiders were actually neutral/good. I'm guessing Cham and the Spiders just happened to speak mutually intelligible languages. clever of Cham to use shapeshifting to tell the story.

The "weak member' thing definitely reverberated here.

Lyle... yeah, why did they "need" Lyle, was not clear. He did help save the day, but sort of stumbled into it. Good reading of his character, FC

In any case, the Legion avenged Kid Quantum's death and stopped Tangleweb's reign of terror. It was clever of the writers, handicapping Andromeda so and adding tension to the story; she could easily have beat all the enemies up by herself, after all. Also probably why she wasn't introduced before Planet Hell, imagine how easy that mission would have been!

Cos' little pep talk at the end was a nice full circle moment.

Also liked him sort of thanking Lyle, while also letting Lyle know that he clearly disobeyed orders, which was NOT acceptable.

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1007291 09/20/21 03:39 AM
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I enjoyed these three issues too.

The central issue around Triad is a fascinating look at her character in a way we never have before, and the different reactions of her personas are well portrayed and add to the tale in their dialogue and performance.

The two issue Tangleweb story has Gim as a central character, which makes sense considering how his failed leadership was so much a part of the original mission. There are some great lines of dialogue. Quantum Kid's statue is "the only thing in the world that makes Leviathan feel small." His reactions throughout makes sense and add to his character as has been discussed above. His outbursts during the briefing reflect well on how keen he is to make up for his initial mistakes so he is frustrated at the debate delaying the mission. The way he burst out with "After I blew the mission? That's what you were going to say, wasn't it?" and the deathly silence that followed (well portrayed in a silent visual medium). Then how he more quietly describes the original mission to the new legionnaires including finishing with words again showing that he hasn't forgiven himself. Then his need to step up as leader, ever so reluctantly because he is afraid he will fail again but he does it anyway, followed by his frustration but working on getting Andromeda involved. Finally prepared to do whatever it takes to make her act as a legionnaire, and then making sure he thanks and congratulates her after she succeeds.

He still has a way to go which he obviously realises as reflected in his final speech with Cos, but then that is true of the whole team. The comments above about them really being and acting like teens is a good one. They really do feel young in this series in ways they rarely did in some of the original stories and that is something I appreciate about the Reboot. From memory it starts to fade in to the background but at least here it is on display.

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1007295 09/20/21 04:12 AM
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Indeed, I appreciate Gim being portrayed as a flawed leader who is working hard to better himself. It's a nice contrast to the cool, calm and competent Cosmic Boy.

I may personally dislike Gim (because I would struggle to work with someone like him), but from a storytelling point of view it's gold.

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1007300 09/20/21 08:06 AM
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Agree with all the above, but just want to reinforce the good parts of this issue - Gim really struggling to be a leader, but also Andromeda's struggles in her own right. I remember hoping at the time that I read this that she would start to become a more likeable character sooner.

Cham's understanding of the arachnid's language was, in hindsight, a clue that he understood more than he let on.

Also agree on the points made about Lyle - he makes a big deal about coming along, but doesn't really add much.

Just as a somewhat interesting note, this issue is the final issue of the first "Legionnaires" Omnibus. It begins with the "Zero" issues and continues through to this, which effectively covers the start of the Legion, Gim's disastrous initial leadership, then his redemption, so a nice arc in that story before it turns to the White Triangle.


Interested in the Post-Zero Hour Reboot Legion? Check out:

The Reboot Legion Timeline

Fan Fiction: The Legion of Super-Heroes v4.1 (continuing the reboot from issue 126!) on LW or here (external)

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1007307 09/20/21 11:22 AM
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ooh yeah it does make a nice endpoint, IMO. Ending here gives some hope = Andromeda coming through, Gim coming through, Kid Quantum I being avenged, Triad on the way to healing. definitely a better stopping point than the next two issues (Composite Durlan) wink

And good point re Andromeda also getting a little victory here!

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1007327 09/20/21 06:46 PM
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That is a good point about Andromeda. A lot of her words and actions have made her a bit unlikeable, but there have been moments when we have seen past her portrayed bigotry and outer facade such as her mixed reactions to the "fish-man" muggers and her concern for Spark in LSH #67 and her portrayal here.

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1007392 09/22/21 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Invisible Brainiac
Legionnnaires 25

Issue Information

Skin Deep


Summary: After Saturn Girl sees the inner workings of a Durlan mind, the Legion gets attacked by a Durlan who imitates all of their powers and has a vendetta against Chameleon.

Review:

It must have been easy to come up with certain story ideas for the reboot Legion. All the writers really had to do was delve into back issues of the preboot for plots and villains and then ?update? them for a ?90s crowd. In this case, they update the Composite Superman, a villain who appeared in World?s Finest and who possessed the powers of the Legionnaires which he gained while working in the Superman Museum, when lightning struck the miniature statues once used to summon Superboy.

In this case, the ?Composite Legionnaire? (though he?s not referred to by that name in this story) is a Durlan who has been genetically bred for war by assimilating the powers as well as the appearance of anyone with whom he is in close proximity. The makes him a truly formidable Legion foe as he is able to keep the entire team on its toes, shifting easily from Spark?s electricity to Cos?s magnetism, from Apparition?s phasing to Violet?s shrinking, and then to Brainy?s intellect?the latter ability making him realize that he can take on all the Legionnaires' powers and some of their appearances at once!

Even though very little new ground is covered here, either in terms of the villain or the storyline, what is delivered is expertly done. The story hints at a motivation behind the new Durlan villain, whose warrior caste apparently was at odds with the religious caste (shades of Babylon 5!), to which Cham belongs. So, the villain?s motivation is simple revenge, but it works. He also trumps Cham in being able to assimilate Interlac far faster than the Legionnaire has been shown to do.

The plot flows seamlessly from Saturn Girl?s voyage to the bottom of Reep?s mind to Gim?s visit to the Science Police, where he trades barbs with Shvaughn Erin before being attacked by the Durlan. Watching this on the viewscreen, Cos assembles the entire Legion to deal with the threat?a big mistake, as it turns out, since so many Legionnaires give the Durlan more powers to assimilate. The battle scenes which follow are well choreographed for the most part, though some Legionnaires are simply not shown after the group shots on Page 16, leading me to forget that Brainy and Tinya were even present.

The story feels disjointed, though, particularly in the early parts. The writers try to heighten the drama by creating Marvel-style tension in the ranks, but their efforts are not wholly successful. Saturn Girl muses that ?it?s all going wrong,? but this comes across as an overly dramatic interpretation of the past few issues. Imra also feels bad for throwing herself at Cos?a comment which made me think I?d missed an issue until I realized she was referring to their innocent near-kiss a few issues ago.

It?s nice to see a focus on Saturn Girl, but not when she comes off as a drama queen.

Likewise, Imra?s attempt to communicate with Cham?s mind goes on too long and pads the story?which leaves us with an ending that feels like very little has been accomplished. Unlike in previous issues where the plot development has been so tight that the cliffhangers seem natural, this one is too abrupt. It reads like a lot of the old-style Marvel comics of the ?60s and ?70s in which very little actually happened in the story.

Legionnaires 25 provides us with a successful update of an old character in a partially successful story that I almost want to grade as ?Incomplete.?


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1007393 09/22/21 11:32 AM
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IB pointed out the weak points in this story: too long on the Durlan mind scene and Imra's out-of-character drama queen comments (one assumes she's just very stressed, but it feels off).

Although composite characters annoy me (look weird and too many powers), I do like the concept of creating a Durlan warrior to imitate powers as well as forms. It's another science gone wrong tale; the super soldier is turning on its creators. This one doesn't start out as a composite, though. Not unlike Tangleweb, he learns from his victims and uses that knowledge to modify his attack. After killing a few Durlans on the home world, he's on a mad quest to take down Cham, for some reason. Is Cham the only one remaining of the religious caste and the composite has vowed to wipe them all out?

I also liked Gim's relationship with his old SP pals. Shvaughn Erin joins the story; she's taken out of the action with a broken back (for a few days, reminding us that this is future health care) but I'd expect her to be back in a bigger role in some later issue and notes in the letter column confirm this.

A shape changer in the Science Police has been done before (and will be done again) but it's a good ploy to sow confusion and heighten the danger. By contrast, the fight scene against the Legionnaires dragged a bit for me; the bad guy was imitating the Legionnaires one after the other, but it was obvious who he was.

Very smart of Rokk to get Andromeda out of battle in case her powers get duplicated and bring them all down. It also means that Andromeda doesn't have to deal with her racism.

Vi stands up to Adromeda and confronts her regarding the White Triangle thugs. Vi has a quiet voice but fierce determination. Interesting that she'd go to Andromeda first for an explanation rather than relay her suspicions to the others: a good sense of fair play.

There's a bit of comic interlude as Tinya bitches about men, Tenzil eats the cactus Jo sent Tinya and Ayla's on cloud 9 over an anonymous love note.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1007398 09/22/21 12:10 PM
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HI there! Just a quick note to say I'm up to Legionnaires #4 on my epic attempt to reading "all of it" from the fabled #247 to the end of the Bendis run, and hope to catch up by the end of the weekend so I can join in the discussion here! I'm into previously unread territory for me, so it'll be all new as far as I'm concerned!


"Do me a favor, Lightning Lad--shut up and dance!"
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1007407 09/22/21 02:34 PM
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hey Christopher, glad to see you joining in! and WOW! a full reread of every Legion comic ever, super curious how long it took you!

Feel free to jump in whenever - like, you can comment on issues already reviewed, you may have new insights and thoughts. would be great to read em all!

I'm a big Reboot era fan, you're in for a treat! Enjoy!

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1007408 09/22/21 02:36 PM
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FC, you raise a good point about the battle. I think part of why it seemed to drag on, was it was a dozen Legionnaires against one foe. If it had been against a team/group, it would not have felt so long.

Yeah, Imra being stressed is understandable, but the over-the-top narration also made her reactions seem too drama queen-y. not too mention, she was becoming too snippy (e.g. that crack to Cos: "Can you handle this, or shall I summon the team?" - totally unprovoked and uncalled for) - and this is not something we've seen from her earlier in the Reboot.

Last edited by Invisible Brainiac; 09/22/21 02:37 PM.
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1007421 09/22/21 07:46 PM
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I still enjoyed this. Reading your criticisms I can see your points, but I also saw positives in the same thing.

With Imra, I agree that her thoughts and characterisation feels a bit like it comes out of the blue. I think this is the first time we have seen inside her head (as to what she is thinking) in the reboot so it does come across a bit sudden. On t the other hand it also means we don't know what she has been thinking behind the scenes. Actually we have seen little of our character's thoughts, learning most by their spoken words and actions. Lyle's thoughts when he decided to be the cavalry during he mission with Tangleweb are an exception as are Garth's thoughts on occasion. So far it has seemed balanced, shown by that it never crossed my mind before - but yes this feels different. I guess they needed to do something different considering the subject was Imra diving into someone else's mind.

And that's the positive. Typically when we think of telepathy we think of it like hearing spoken thoughts or even like reading, but as this tries to show it could be something very different and only another telepath would understand how different. SPOILER -
Having read further I can see that this is also a setup for the climax of the battle and the sacrifice involved. Like a gun over the mantlepiece it is perhaps obvious in retrospect but not right now, leading to the off-colour feel.
This delving in to the viewpoint of the telepath is an interesting take, reminding me of Volume 3 Baxter issue when that version of Imra peered into Nura, Brainy, and Reep's minds. Highlighting the inherent dangers involved is a good point that is rarely considered. Star Trek have visited here on occasion but I don't remember another Legion occurrence. Still it doesn't explain her seemingly sudden issues with the team and Rokk's leadership.

As for the "super" Durlan, I found most of the issue really creepy, conveying well the threat of a homicidal creature trained in killing that can become anyone or anything. Even though I have read this a number of times before, I had forgotten the sudden reveal when he turned out to be the SP that shot the mouse. His acting chops are pretty great as he really had me fooled when he wasn't sure if it was a mouse or not. This part had a real horror movie feel to it and I thought it was done pretty well. The "final" battle wasn't as good but the leadup was terrific.

Oh and I wonder why they chose to have the "weather-control" mishap? Just for the atmosphere (no pun intended)? Seeing such dedication to rainy scenes isn't that common and I enjoyed that, along with their badged Legion rain ponchos. They must have stuff ready for every possibility at their HQ.

Last edited by stile86; 09/22/21 07:47 PM.
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