Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Legion vs. 'Grownups': Are adult Legion fans missing the point?

It really is starting to bug me where a lot of Legionaires on these boards are complaining about the generational conflict.

I'm an older individual really but I took the fight to be one against an oppressive, stagnant, and cold system.

Others seem to be more "Kids are dumb and ignorant against the grownups who know better."

Why is that? Given well, in this case, the 'grownups' don't and are a bunch of drones.

I tend to agree with you, Charles.

Perhaps it's too hard not to extrapolate the current LSH generational conflict against the Baby Boom movements of 30-40 years ago, and extrapolate some 20/20 hindsight on blind idealism of youth vs. dealing with outcomes you didn't plan on.

I think also that some people are having difficulty grasping that they're working very hard to establish that certain Legionaires are respectful and differential to adults (Cosmic Boy and Brainiac 5), even if they desire to change the system....they're going through the proper channels for it.

While others are just punks along for the ride like Ultraboy and Shadowlass.

We also see perfectly 'normal' children like Tinya and Imra whom have healthy relationships with their parents.

Along with the child of an abusive household in Invisible Kid.

It's alright to think some are good and some are pad.

Hell, I imagine KK no doubt still has his sensei.

Sure, Adults are just the most convienient outlet for their frustration.

We've seen a diversity in the adults as well. We have seen parents who are supportive (Morgnas) and hostile (Norgs) to the Legion's goals. We've also seen in Delegate Ardeen that adults can change their minds and admit they're wrong as well.

I think the creators could illustrate what you're talking better about by introducing some other non-legionnaire kids who support the system. Maybe Shavaugn could be introduced as a straight and narrow SP cadet assigned to the Legion. Then there would be someone their own age that Shady and Jo could act out against.

I'm not sure I'm missing the point as much as simply not caring for it.

I prefer super-villains and evil aliens to generational conflicts.

I'm not sure Tamper Lad.

I mean 'the system' doesn't need support. It's henious and just shy of evil. There's conscription, forcing kids into potential insanity, Big brother style monitoring, and beating the crazzap out of kids when not outright murdering them (like on Lallor--is that planet possessed of some weird hyper-fundamentalists who hate colorful clothing and sexuality?)

I as an adult would like to find whatever kid would support such an endeavor and beat them up.

But yes, more adult support would be help.

The Legion isn't against adults really but this rather nasty group.

I don't mind the generation conflict as a backdrop to the series, but I'm getting a bit tired of it always taking front and center. We know they fight more conventional super-villains. We seen it in flashbacks and short sequences like Triplicate Girl capturing Phaxred. I'd like to see the generational conflict pushed to the background a bit while they fight giant more robots and such.

I honestly wish that we'd get a Legion secret files. I would appreciate maybe a spelling out of the hints we get about the Brave New world they live in. Maybe R.J. Brande did exist at one point and stopped funding them when they stopped being as idealistic as they should be.

I get the impression there's a dark underbelly to this society. That art, religion, philosophy, and probably history and other forms of education have been censored from society.

It might be that the people who were exiled outside the UP were those whom didn't want to go along with it.

What is the point? The speech Lightning Lad gave in #12 summed up the situation: there are kids who are bored with restrictive society, and there are kids who are really suffering under harsh economic/social conditions. I'd like to see more about the roots of the society's problem, what you call the "dark underbelly" and have the purely generational stuff, which is pretty common to most eras, recede. We are indeed getting a range of behaviour from the Legionnaires, from those who try to work with the adults to those who react to their jailers. It's also good to see that adults are not a monolithic, mindless mass in this series - that some are open-minded and others are opening.

The generational conflict is something we didn't really get in previous Legion stories - the Legionnaires were mostly treated just like adults by adults, which never really made sense.

In the meantime, it's kinda fun to act outraged with "disrespectful teens". I think a lot of our criticism is tongue-in-cheek; I know mine is.

Brainiac 5 deferential? I must have missed that part.

I totally agree with FC in that the generational conflict is interesting, but we need to see more about what makes this society so allegedly malevolent. I'm sorry, but the Public Service just dosen't cut it. The UP of the Archie Legion era had worse skeletons in its closet. Maybe if we were to learn more about the exiles at the edge of the galaxy or something. We need more than the "adults are lame" schtick to justify the level of this legion's opposition to the status quo.

See, I'm not going to be very objective about this sort of thing. I've just spent a nightmarish six months or so being verbally abused by a couple of teenage boys who live near me for the heinous crimes of not being thin or a young dollybird. Being afraid to go out, not being able to walk my dog over the field because the little darlings were riding there illeagally on thier motorbikes etc.

Well I reported them to the police and the ringleader got arrested for harrassment, so hopefully that nightmare is over now.

So when I see scenes like in the preview for the next issue that seem to be glorifying rude and obnoxious behaviour that is justified on some kind of vague 'kids vs adults' half baked poorly thought out amorphous 'philosophy lite' it offends me.

That may well be down to my own real world circumstances and the present mental state of my self right now more than the book.

But it rattles me. See, that scene to someone like Mark Waid is a cute bit of fantasy. Living where I do in Chavtown UK it's reality. Unpleasant reality. Says the fat chick with mental health issues who's just finally got up enough courage to walk her dog over the field again for the first time in months..

Oh yeah minus the flying and the super powers. And no one is from another planet. More's the pity.

Putting aside my real world problems, the adult-kid conflict in the book is way, way too simplistic and crude. And it's boring too. I haven't seen enough in-story to sell this conflict as justified. That's a failing of the writing as far as I can see.

Want me to believe in this conflict? Sell it to me! Why are the adults so bad? Why is the society so bad?? I haven't seen anything very compelling so far.

Besides which I want to see the Legionnaires using their powers and doing something superheroic already. Standing around snarking and stealing people's goggles doesn't cut it.

Several more pennyworths from me!

Well the problem is catching a balance that the society needs reform without needing it to be overthrown Infectious. Also, I don't think the Legion feels the need to scare you....

Think of them as Lemnos' gang. There's a difference between obnoxious kids and thugs.

But yes we have...

1. The government (not Adults) on Naltor driving their kids nearly insane to prevent them from knowing about a war.

2. The massacres on Lallor.

3. The Science Police trying to bulldoze private property and nearly killing a dozen people or more.

4. The head busting assault on the Legion Crowd in last issue.

5. The fact the U.P practices conscription of young men.

(There was a time when adults would fight wars---what the hell is up with this century?)

While these events are somewhat spread between things, the governments portrayal is not limited to watching people but inflicting genuine psychological and physical harm to the 'children.'

The only real problem I have with it is that it starts to bore me after awhile. Its not as interesting to me as real history conflicts between generations, like in the 1960's, or even 4th Century Rome.

At this point, I don't mind the backdrop but I want science-fiction, action, super-villains, elections, romance and super-pets. I might not get the last one, but I really would like the others...

Part of the problem is that Waid is self-conciously writing the comic as he feels it should have been written in the sixties, as capturing part of the youth movement of that era. The problem is that those who were young in those days are all grown-up now and aren't nearly as sympathetic with the causes of their youth, while the young people of today are about as revolutionary as a Big Mac.

I agree with the majority of posters: the youth versus the adults theme IS already getting too much the main storyline so far (and it was already a tired theme.)
While you don't need to/should show all the Legionnaires as perfectly behaved people, you need to concentrate more on some different angles. A few more action oriented stories would be nice.

I guess my preference would be against some horrific revelation about 31st century society (a la, the galaxy's president is R'as al Ghul, and he has kidnapped and tortured sentient species to turn them into stardrives).

I would prefer an entertaining (and I stress that) look at the COSTS of a repressive, repressed society. What happens to people who have artistic adventurous, or risk-taking inclinations? Are they classifed as mentally ill? Are they forced onto medication? Exiled to the edge of the galaxy, what? How are kids socialized not to be sociable?

I would really like to see at least one story about the dark side of the public service, since I think depriving young adults of ALL privacy is, well, evil.

I would like to see Waid shift this more into the conflict between security and liberty and less as young vs. old.

The age thing just seems very forced. IMO it's Waid and Barry saying the Legion is about being "teens". Something else else that IMO was evident only for a fraction of the team's history.

Are teen comics popular among teens? I don't think so to tell the truth. As a teen I was into Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns.

Maybe when Waid was a teen or younger this type of Legion would work. I would like a mix of ages from teeny to mid-twenties. Why not try to make most of the readers happy? Why focus on the Adventure era roster and the adv era ages, etc? And why did DC allow this to happen?

I will tell you cause they thought names like Waid and Kitson could sell the Legion no matter what. They were wrong. And again it's NOT the Legion's fault. They are not broken. They are not a thing of the past.

Get Geoff or Grant Morrisson on this title and they will prove that.

Generation gaps are a fact of life, and it's more than valid to use them as part of the background for a story. Generational conflict shouldn't form the entire story, necessarily, and definitely not for a franchise such as the Legion, but it's a good idea to have it there.

And we've only really seen one storyline so far. That's too early to say that Waid and Kitson haven't done a good enough job of exploring all the nuances.

Unfortunatly, there is nothing worse than a middle aged writer trying to write dialogue, or life from the point of view of a teenager.
I don't care what century you're in it still comes off stilted and (eventually) embarrassing.
Personally, I preffered the young adult Legion of the Cockrum, Grell, Levitz era to any of the teenage incarnations of the group.
But hey, that's just me.

Oh, yes, there is.

A teenager trying to write dialogue or life from the point of view of a teenager. I don't care what century you're in; it still comes off pretentious and self-important and (eventually) embarrassing.

Today's youth tend to be more conservative actually and tend to consider their parents having wasted their lives and ruined the planet. Strange I know. But these things tend to go in cycles.

I'd argue the new group is mostly young adult.

Of course, there's always some problems. The Legion of the Zero Hour Reboot was embarrasing in its youth and disturbing honestly. It was if RJ Brande was a lunatic who handed loaded guns to kids and sent them into warzones.

Attempts to make them 'adults' also backfired horribly as Phantom Girl and Ultraboy's relationship utterly failed to be anything but creepy.

What is strange for me is that the current Legion really look and act like young adults to me -- say in the age range of 18 to 20, old enough to vote and drive, not old enough to drink or rent a car. They are treated like children by many adults, but they do not seem more childish than present day young adults. The only one that looks and acts like some sort of teenager (under 18) is Invisible Kid, maybe Star Boy too. I actually wish that there were more of an obvious age range to the Legionnaires. There is a big difference between a 15 year-old and 20 year-old. Then it would feel more like the sort of gang/substitute family that they are.

In this Legion reboot so far, the emphasis has been the characterization driving the stories, whereas the more successful versions of the Legion in the past have had the stories driving the characterization.

Waid is trying to make a statement of some sort about our modern times thru the backdrop of the Legion title, however, much like the racial issues introduced in the 70's thru Tyroc, the stories come across as forced and hard to relate to. As readers, we would all hope that, while the 31st Century is not perfect, these sorts of "issues" would have been hammered out by that time.

See I don't think anyone is missing the point of what Waid is writing. As much as he hamfistedly beats you over the head with it nearly every issue there is no way you could miss it. I just think alot of people are getting bored with it quick. The book is nearly a year and a half old, and I don't feel I know these characters any better than I did in the first few issues. Take Ultra boy for example. All Waid has shown us is this hot headed jerk who hates authority. Maybe if Waid was show us alittle about his past so we could see why he is like he is people might care a little more. And that goes for nearly every member of the team. I want to read about the characters in the Legion and not some kids out in the square.