Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Does "every legionaire ever" actually hurt the story?

Okay, i am a Perez fan. Even got the Masterworks dvd from netflicks just because it was him. But...

It seems that he always wants "every character ever" in the big event stories, like JLA/Avengers. And i DO think that sometimes the story would be better served if they weren't trying to shoehorn every character in. Yes, its George Perez, and yes, he has enough clout that when he asks, writers do...but i think that sometimes they should just tell the story without having all the superflous characters in.

Nineteen group shots of all the different incarnations done by George is a great poster, but there is only limited storypages. His art is great enough (though oddly, i always thought his worst character to draw was Batman)that sometimes i think it would be better served by the less is more theory.

Thoughts?

agreed.

JLA/Avengers started off great but by the time that big free-for-all battle started in the last(?) issue I did think it was starting to get a bit too cluttered and crowded.

On the other hand, the original Crisis had a lot more characters and group shots in it but that book never felt as busy or messy to me.

So I think the writing has a lot to do with it. Marv Wolfman was able to write the big character-heavy scenes in a more organic, unobtrusive way than I think Kurt Busiek did.

Time will tell how well Geoff Johns will fare at doing this but so far he's done a great job.

And personally, I would much rather have some maybe-slightly-crowded George Perez drawn art in this book over the probably not-detailed-enough work of 99% of the other artists in the business today.

It's the LEGION. Having as many characters as one can fit on to the page should be the standard when dealing with this team. Writers and artists should step up to that challenge and deliver. If not, then go write/draw a solo book or a team book like the Fantastic Four, Doom Patrol, etc.

The same goes for fans who want the Legion to be about only their favorite character or only a small handful of characters because of the fans own limitations on what they enjoy (not saying anyone here is saying that...just a comment on some of the fans' way of looking at the Legion).

They are a team that defends a galaxy of planets...their numbers should be large. A good, truly creative team can tell some great, entertaining stories using a large cast.

I don't think E.L.E. hurts the story in a special event like this. However, that's best when done in addition to a core group managing the situation.

Nightcrawler, i agree that if you are going to be a legion artist or writer, you better be able to use them all.

I am also saying that sometimes, having every page crammed to the gills distracts rather than enhances a story. George is a master, and in a five issue book there is room to have everyone. But, not everyone is always needed. Art should compliment a story, and vice versa. I just think that sometimes, in his zeal to show everyone, George can miss that some sections would be more powerful with less.

Not an unreasoning idea, i think.

Yes. Especially seeing how the characterication's going to suffer because of all that "eye candy".

I mean, It would be great to see all the variants of a specific legionnaire converse with each other-- but where do you take the place for the speech ballons for it?

And remember, this series is not just about the legion-- it contemplates Superman and the place of his "Silver Age" in modern continuity, too...

All Perez said was that he wanted to draw every Legionnaire - not for them to be substantial characters in the storyline. Seems to me we've had 90% already and that was in the intro book. Quislet, Monstress and Chemical King (to name but three) have had their appearance and won't be seen again in Lo3W.

Other than the fake Legionnaires (who probably aren't on Perez's radar), there are only the 5YG/5YL Legionnaires left for Perez to draw and presumably Johns will have a reason for their inclusion somewhere. The Time Trapper explaning his past antics probably.

Where was Chemical King? I have read and re-read the issue several times and have not spotted Chemical King or the original dead members Invisible Kid or Ferro Lad.

The page after RJ Brande appears - the Olsen holo is explaining about Takron Galtos and the three dead Legionnaires are displayed behind him.

I agree completely, Rickshaw. Less is often more, even in the Legion. I'd rather see a well-crafted story featuring 5 to 10 Legionnaires, rather than an extravaganza with 57 Legionnaires with each one only getting a tiny moment in the sun, if that.

Forget the "Perez wants to draw every Legionnaire" biz. I think the purpose of the every-Legionnaire artwork is for Johns to confirm the existence of those characters in the current DCU. So a scene with three dead Legionnaires in the background confirms Chemical King hasn't been retconned out of the retcon (if you see what I mean) without a word being said. Ditto Quislet, Tellus, Tyroc, Monstress etc.

Johns has already gone on record as saying that there will be a core group (including XS as well as Dawnstar etc) that will be central to the plot. So I think the main storyline should please everyone but with the added bonus of bringing all the characters back into the DCU thanks to the art.

If Johns and Perez pull it off it is a win-win situation IMHO

Asking Perez not to do a couple, everybody that can fit, type double pagers is like asking alex Ross to switch to Microsoft Paint. It's what he does. I want that.

True, not to the detrimate of the story and I always did enjoy a good, "where's waldo."

I'm with Nighty and BB.

If Yeats stopped by for a cup of coffee after dinner one night, wouldn't you want him to read some poetry?

Perez does something that hardly any other artist in comic history does--he relishes the chance to give us everything when he does a project. I'll gladly take it all in!

Naw, I'd actually freak and complain he was dripping skin on my rug

I agree with Gary...it's the Legion. I expect tons of characters. But Legion membership and story quality have nothing to do with each other.

I don't mind when they focus on a small group of members and leave the others to a corner of a panel.

I've just seen guys take large teams in the past and tell great stories. Levitz, Geoff Johns JSA and Hama on maybe an even bigger team...G.I.JOE!

Not only was Hama telling great stories with dozens of heroes he was telling us the story of the villains as well!

It does have the ability to quickly become unfocused. But I think it's very possible with a good writer and EDITOR!(imagine that?)

Hah! Indeed, there he is - even I have missed it, and I actively searched for any Chemical King appearance...

But I guess that's just proof of what some people here are saying: "Every Legion member ever" does certainly not mean they all have to take an active role in the story. You can just hide them in the background, make some mass scenes, and mostly you can still focus on the main team and the main story.

The fun fact about the Legion is that many artists in the past seemed to dread it - for exactly the reason that there are too man characters around. There have been writer tenures in Legion history when there only appeared five heroes every issue. So now we have an artist who thrives on huge groups, so it's not a miracle that he gets the opportunity to do them all - but as Johns is writing the story, who also is a great writer with team books, I am not scared about the outcome.

I rather guess this will be one of the books which you keep on picking up, looking at it and detecting something new every time. Considering the cost of a regular comic book nowadays, this is a quality which should be portrayed much, much more... but isn't.

Perez is just an artistic genius. Just got some of his Crossgem Chronicles via ebay - and what can I say, he makes it shine, no matter what the story is about...

I think this hits the nail right on the head. Chemical Kid, etc. have 'appeared,' but the important thing is that we have some visual proof that they *existed in canon,* and haven't been retconned away like Garth and Imra's kids seem to have been.

We're only on issue #1. Maybe Englenna's on Medicus One babysitting!

sheer probability and numbers wise? i think it helps. i'm super excited to see that legion lost era set of legionnaires.

and a lot of people like certain legionnaires that they can't see any longer because they're dead or retconned away. so if you want to sell a legion book, put in everyone. now, a giant cast IS a nightmare but it's intrinsically easier since some of these chracters are the same person. in other words, if you know ONE of the version you sort of have a back door to the others. AND, you automatically have something that might be interesting for readers - the interaction between different versions of themselves

you know the 5YG issue i found the most interesting was when the SW6 kids met their counterparts *one of the few i actually READ and didn't skim through*.

i figure this book is made specifically for the dumb monkey part of me that goes "ME LOVE QUERL!" what's better than one querl, monkey? "TWO QUERL!" and what's better than THAT? "THREE QUERL! GIVE ME MANY QUERL!"

literally, if the book was JUST THAT and written by a drunk hobo? I'd still buy it. i'm not really one of those people that go "oh i only like this version of bob, not any other", i have deep love for all three or four or...5, technically, green adorable geniuses and others so.

if they'd added a regular writer i'd be like "hey, something all right might happen" but since it's geoff johns i go "THIS MIGHT BE AMAZING, GIVE IT TO ME".

and yeah and i don't think EVERY legionnaire EVER means "they will all have speaking roles etc". it means that spread that you saw at the end of issue one that had a bunch crammed in there. it means that museum at the beginning. johns already said his management for this project, like every other big cast book, is focusing in on several select members. probably the founders, +querl, +polar boy +...i dunno! who cares! anyways, wait til it's over to figure out if it hurts!

What's the most Dox' we've seen in any one panel? I'm almost postive Dox, Braniac and Brainy all shared panel space. SW6 Brainy and big brainy shared. Then there was "Mom."

Validus (the monster) appears in the Perez-drawn poster on the last page of Action #863 (the final issue of the “Superman and the LSH” arc.) with the rest of the Fatal Five.

Saturn Girl is attacking him in the picture. Maybe she’s saying "Val, you come home with Mommy this very instant!" but I kind of doubt it.

I guess the issue here is where is the cut-away point from the Levitz-Giffen run Post Crisis to the Johns Legion?

Johns has gone on record as saying everything pre-Crisis is canon (though not exactly - any Smallville storylines have to be different) but he has blown away post Crisis and Glorithverse events. The cut off has to be before Legion V3 #37 (where the pocket universe Superboy appeared) but there has been nothing so far to indicate where between the Crisis crossovers (#16 and #18) and #37 the cut-off is. So Legion Annual 2 may or may not have happened in the Johnsverse. Garth and Imra may have kids but one of them is not necessarily Validus.

I think Validus was one of the best characters in the Legion's universe to remove him/it through such a contrived storyline was a waste - probably Levitz's biggest mistake. That story being retconned out would be a plus.

I couldn’t agree more. It was the one time Levitz descended into the type of self-indulgent fan-fictiony retconning that infested the TMK Legion later. However it doesn’t prove he’s not their son (that revelation came a year or two before Crisis as a postscript to Great Darkness Saga), only that they don’t know it.

I’m of the mind the best thing to do is leave Johnsverse Validus’ true identity a mystery so we never know for sure if he is or isn’t.