Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Oh Yeah, That Forum: The Titans The Tubby Titans!

Back in the day, super-heroes who weren't assisted by scantily clad young boys were often assisted by humorous, overweight sidekicks!

Have we ever seen a meeting of these various characters?

Not that I'm aware of! Because that would be beyond groovy!

While Doiby Dickles is basically the Wolverine of humorous, overweight sidekicks--basically taking over Green Lantern's own strip in the post WWII years (until Streak, GL's dog usurped it from him but thats a story for another day), another awesome sidekick was Tubby Watts, who helped out Johnny Quick. Doiby was from Brooklyn, and therefore often showed how courageous he was along side GL; Tubby was more in line with getting himself into trouble and bumbling around (as humorous, overweight sidekicks are wont to do) and Johnny had to bail him out. By the 1950's, Johnny and Tubby's stories often included ice cream eating contests and Tubby being unable to get a date so Johnny would have to double with him. I'm not kidding.

Tex Thompson, aka Mr. America, aka Americommando (jeez, he had more names than a Fabian Nicieza comic book character) has the not so subtle "Fatman".

Ultimately if you were a Golden Ager who wasn't Superman you were going to get your pick of five sidekick types:

- fat, lovable, humorous sidekick. Really, who doesn't want one of these?

- skinny, really dumb sidekicks. Flash's Winky, Blinky and Noddy are the classic, but don't forget Wildcat had Stretch.

- scantily glad young boy in desperate need of a father figure. I don't think I need to go into this much further.

- <strike>quiet</strike> Asian ass-kicking karate kid. DC made sure Vigilante and Crimson Avenger followed the Green Hornet's trend-setting ways.

- oddball random pet sidekick. The Shining Knight might have had Winged Victory, which is pretty cool, but Dr. Mid-Nite had his owl and...Robotman had Robbie, his robotic little dog...and oh yes, Air Wave had his pet parrot, Static. In fact, I humbly suggest we create an entire Static forum here on LW in honor of Static the Parrot. I volunteer to moderate.

- EDIT - 6th rare category - smoking hot female sidekick, usually a woman (not a "girl") with basically the same motif as their male partner, usually has romantic relationship with male lead.

Wow! I totally love your sidekick classification schema!

Hmm... I guess Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen is kind of in a class by himself...

Yeah, thats true. Superman is different because basically every person friendly with him was a type of sidekick to him. And because of his "#1" status in American culture, most of his sidekicks were usually more competent and intelligent--even Jimmy Olsen, who gets a bad rep nowadays.

Also, Jimmy didn't come into play until the 1950's and by then the sidekick situation had changed drastically. There was really only Robin and his type of sidekick (whom I will now call the Robinites). The Robinites consisted of Robin, Speedy and Dan Hunter (Tomahawk's sidekick), and when the Silver Age hit at the latter half of the decade that would be the blueprint (Kid Flash, Aqualad, Supergirl). So for a most of the 50's, Jimmy kind of stood alone--a little like Robin & Speedy, but also a little like Archie (from Archie Comics fame).

You'll note the rest of the comic book industry followed suit: in the Golden Age, everyone had sidekicks. Captain America famously had Bucky, the Torch had Toro, etc. (Namor, though, had none--he was kind of like Timely's Superman anyway).

In the late Golden Age all sidekicks except the teenagers were abandoned. This is for two reasons: (A) they simply really were abandoned or (B) most superhero strips were cancelled other than a handful who all happened to have the teenage sidekick type.

There was also the brief "kid gang" phenomenom that Jack Kirby started in the post WWII Golden Age--this changed things two: first off, teens were the stars and not the supporting cast; and usually there was an adult that was almost *their* sidekick, like the Guardian for the Newsboy Legion or Captain Carter for the Boy Commandoes. I think this transition on features focusing on teeangers, combined with the coming onslought of Archie Andrews and the plethora of lookalike wannabes, would help keep Robin and other teen sidekicks in the mix for the 1950's.

In the 1950's Atomic Age, no one had any superheroes whatsoever besides DC (who only had Superman and Batman and their back-up features, with Wonder Woman not really classified as a superhero anymore), or at least, no one had any that lasted more than six months.

What's interesting is when Marvel really kicked into high gear in 1962, they completely abandoned the idea of a kid sidekick. Instead, teenagers were the stars of their own comics (Spider-Man, X-Men) or were absent entirely from comic strips (I can't recall a single teenager ever appearing in Iron Man's Tales of Suspense). This was part of the Marvel Age mentality and ultimately, it killed the teen sidekick in the industry for a long time. DC would copy this gradually over time, though they gave the sidekicks a home in the Teen Titans. The rest of the industry was copying Marvel like crazy by the mid-60's, so you'll notice the revamped Archie superheroes of 1965 (the most blatant copy of Marvel) had no teen sidekicks and the Charlton superheroes of 1966 had no teen sidekicks. That shows you the blueprint had changed--teen sidekicks, and in fact, sidekicks in general were a thing of the past.

I'm glad you clarified, Des... At first I thought you meant like Archie BUNKER...

P.S., I'll always be YOUR Tubby Titan...

*Never* trust your reader will understand you on the internet

You've got to wonder what would've happened if Johnny Quick had lasted a couple of years longer until the start of the Silver Age.

Air Wave has always seemed like just about the coolest Golden Age hero whose stories I've never actually read! I had no idea he had a parrot sidekick!

I love the sidekick classification too, though I don't think either Stuff or Wing were ever "quiet". Indeed, I just finished reading the Seven Soldiers archives and there were times Wing really needed to shut up.

I would point out that there were some GA characters lucky enough to have attractive women as their sidekicks, notably The Flame, Bulletman, Hawkman, and Cat-Man.

Well, not quite "completely".

Excepting, of course, Bruce Banner's pal Rick Jones -- sort of a thinking fan's Snapper Carr.

Rick protected Bruce from the ire directed at the Hulk, later hung with the Avengers, became Captain America's new Bucky, then Captain Mar-Vell's new Billy Batson. Rick was all over the map: sidekick, top kick (of the Teen Brigade), and alter ego.

Also, I guess I should note that another even more rare sidekick genre is the "male sidekick to female superhero", which is rare because there were fewer female superheroes (though there were probably more female superheroes active in the Golden Age with their own features than there have been ever since--members of teams not counting).

These men were neither humorous, stupid or unattrative. In fact, they were leading men, usually intelligent and clever, and in positions where they were helping soceity. Larry Lance and Steve Trevor are prime examples. They, of course, were the love interests of the superheroines, and had to be of a standard that the readers would believe the heroines would fall for them.

Yet, I do not include this category as part of my schema because its essentially the old "love interest rather than sidekick" notion. Lois Lane would easily fit this billing too, and she was no sidekick. I'd say being the love interest of the lead takes precedence over the sidekick role, and therefore eliminates them.

Full-on superheroines like Hawkwoman don't count because they're full-on superheroines.

Stripesy's kind of a unique character as well, since he's effectively an adult sidekick to a teen super-hero.

Re: Johnny Quick. The interesting comparison is with Green Arrow, who at the time was so minor they forgot about him when putting together the JLA! The other two Weisinger clones (GA and Aquaman) went on to become major stars in the Silver Age, while Johnny kind of went on to obscurity.

IIRC, Stan Lee didn't actually like kid sidekicks, which is why Bucky was removed when Cap was revived.

Wing is chatty in that always wisecracking mode so beloved of GA writers of the time (which carried over to the SA pretty easily). He's also, as you can imagine, a horrid sterotype.

What's interesting about Green Arrow (going even further off-topic) is that his publishing history had several things happen right before the first appearance of the JLA that might have precluded him. Even though he had been around since the Golden Age, there must have been a real possibility he was about to be completely dropped for good at DC, much like Tommy Tomorrow was around this time.

In the Golden Age, Green Arrow and Speedy were essentially duplicates of Batman and Robin. This wasn’t that uncommon, but they were definitely moreso than say, Crimson Avenger and Wing, and other similar teams. Green Arrow also had the distinct pleasure of being in not one, but two ongoing series: More Fun Comics and World’s Finest Comics—he would move from More Fun to Adventure when Superboy, Johnny and Aquaman all migrated. Ultimately being in not one but two tales would save him. In the 1950’s, which I like to call “The Atomic Age”, particularly under Mort Weisenger beginning in the early 50’s, Green Arrow and Aquaman both developed their own kind of distinct flavors under Mort that tied them very much into the Superman mythos. Both stories had several ongoing themes that were similar to Superman and Superboy. During this era, Green Arrow as nothing like Batman at all anymore, and in fact, completely different. While Batman was pretty much a science-fiction feature under Jack Schiff, Green Arrow dealt with more human problems, like Aquaman did. A great website http://mikegrost.com/comics.htm goes into them at length, mentioning themes like the “Media Tales” that GA and Aquaman had during this era. You’ll notice they appear with Batman in the Lois Lane issue where she’s kissing other superheroes in the late 50’s—as both characters were familiar to Superman readers through Adventure and World’s Finest.

What’s interesting is that in the dawn of the Silver Age, Jack Kirby returned to DC and began a number of projects, notably the Challengers of the Unknown. He was also given Green Arrow, and he turned the strip into something completely different. It was the quintessential Kirby high-action, stylized art, super-science, over the top adventures that the Challengers were having, and the Fantastic Four would soon be having later. He did the GA tales in both WF and Adv. And then suddenly, Kirby left DC because of something entirely unrelated (a problem with Jack Schiff, his editor on the Challs, House of Mystery, etc.). At the same exact time, Supergirl was pushing Congorilla out of Action Comics, and so Mort was looking to move him elsewhere—and did so in Adventure. Thus, Green Arrow, with Kirby now departing, was thrown out of Adventure. What saved him, was that he was still a strip in World’s Finest.

I’ll back track. While Kirby was doing his own thing with Green Arrow, the Superman comics were undergoing the Silver Age to the fullest extent—something no Legion fan or longtime Legion Worlder needs explaining. Aquaman, unlike GA, remained completely tied into this, and in fact, Aquaman became even more of a Superman clone than ever before. Prior to Aqualad, he had several adventures under Mort’s guidance where he basically became Superman under the Sea: his origin was redone; he gained a Supergirl-type Aquagirl (not the eventual Tula), and it was revealed he had adventures when he was a boy, Aquaboy. Most of this was ignored later once he moved out of Adventure to his own title. But it’s safe to say Aquaman was a periphery Superman-family strip. And yet, Green Arrow was not—because he had his own ‘new’ style under Kirby so Mort basically didn’t see him as part of the Superman family anymore. Thus, Kirby leaving, need a home for Congorilla (a traditional Superman back-up since 1940), and ipso facto, exit Green Arrow.

At around the same exact time as all of this, the Brave and Bold debuts the Justice League with the two big Silver Age stars Flash and Green Lantern, the two big guns Batman and Superman, longtime DCer Wonder Woman, and then interestingly, two minor back-ups Aquaman and J’onn J’onnz. I’ve got to think that the confusion regarding Green Arrow’s future resulted in his not being in the Justice League at first. They probably were unsure if he was even going to survive another few months.

Ultimately, he would, in World’s Finest, and then about a year later (or so) when the JLA had its own ongoing title, they would rope him in there as well. Ironically, he’d soon be out of WF and it would be the JLA that would the ongoing title that would save him from obscurity.

...and thus, one can theorize that if Johnny Quick had somehow survived in World Finest, rathre than GA having two strips in the 50's, he might have been in the JLA or had a Silver Age revival as well. The only major difference were his powers duplicated the Flash, who was the big new star at DC.

Probably the most contentious question in all of comic book geekdom: When did the Silver Age end?

You're clearly putting it well before 1969.

Many scholars insist on Mort Weisinger's retirement (1970), and many of us stretch it up to at least the introduction of Swamp Thing to include such significant and groundbreaking events as the wedding of Chuck & Lu, O'Neil Adams' Batman and GLGA relevancy quest, and the introduction of Conan of Cimmeria to four colors.

On the narrower end of the argument, there are those who insist it ended when Ditko left Spider-Man and Doctor Strange (1966).

Such restrictive definitions leave out a LOT of tasty material. Of course, it also leaves out the horrible costumes of the LSH's Grell period. I guess Rokk figured the bad guys would just laugh themselves into submission when they saw him in his corset.

I guess I don't have much of a point, vis a' vis sidekicks, but your early closure of the Silver Age just elevates my dander.

And yeah, no argument regarding the lameness of Snapper. It's just too bad they didn't thump him harder when he betrayed them.

Yeah, the end of the Silver Age is a topic I’ve engaged in over and over during my tenure on message boards. It’s a great topic and like you say, there’s no real answer. So as you gathered, I certainly don’t agree with where you place the end of the Silver Age, though I clearly understand both of us are equally valid in our assumptions.

In my mind, the Silver Age really ends on an individual basis for each individual comic book (DC, Marvel and others), but you can make some broad generalizations. What I believe is that for DC Comics, the Silver Age ended around January 1968; there was then a “Horror / Transition Period” from 1968-1970 and then around the “1970’s Bronze Age” begins for DC around April 1970. For Marvel Comics, I’d say its similar except there is no “Transition period” and it pretty much goes directly from Silver Age to Bronze Age. My reasoning is there is a noticeable shift in the style and ‘spirit’ of the DC titles in 1968 that makes an interesting bridge from the late Silver Age to early Bronze.

Transition Period
- Decline of Super-Heroes and Rise of Horror Comic books as the comic book code begins to loosen up again.
- Mort Weisenger retires
- Several superhero titles cancelled, many titles become strictly reprints, back-ups becoming prominent again
- Steve Ditko, Denny O’Neil, Dick Giordano all leave Charlton and join DC
- Gil Kane joins Marvel

So several things encompass the dawning of a new Bronze Age:
- Jack Kirby joins DC
- Liberal Green Arrow in both GL and the JLA
- Ra’s Al Ghul in Batman
- Captain Stacy’s death in Spider-Man, shifts atmosphere of entire series
- Explosion of Marvel ‘feature’ and ‘team-up’ titles
- Swamp Thing’s introduction
- Cockrum’s Legion stories (including Lu & Chuck’s wedding)

There are a host of other things I rope into these categories that definitely to me signal a shift from the Silver Age. The most noticeable is this is the last time superheroes as a genre appeared to be on the verge of truly declining again. Horror comics and Sword & Sorcery comics gained prominence, as did reprint comics. The switching of creators from one company to the other was also noticeable. The industry was in transition.

Also, in my mind, all these heroes retain certain aspects of greatness to them, so I don’t argue that any one is better than the other. Certainly Conan the Barbarian was quite the creative achievement in the 1970’s—its hard to say the 1970’s weren’t as good as the 60’s when you look at things like Conan.

But to get back to the specific point you raised: yes, I’d put Rick Jones becoming a temporary Bucky at the start of the Bronze Age, or at least during that ambiguous transition period. I’d further say that by the Marvel creators to actual “go there”, since they’d been hinting at it right from the start in Avengers #4, and then to ultimately “go there and realize it couldn’t last”, they were tying up a long decade-running loose end and essentially moving on. This eventually separated Rick from Cap so he wound up in Captain Marvel and paved the way for the Falcon to come in to Cap’s title. (As an aside, I can see how you can make the argument this story was at the end of the Silver Age, so if that would be the natural response, I’d have agree it’s a valid point).

So wow, the thread drifts further off-topic but remains probably the most fun one going on Legion World right now…

Hmm... Madame Fatal, one of my other favorite Golden Age concepts that's totally in need of a revival, also has a pet parrot!

I'm also a huge fan of the Madame Fatal concept! That could be totally groovy if someone other than DC owned it (since they never intend to use it).

There should be more pets in comics. Its like step #15 to getting younger kids to read comics again. Although not in the case of Madame Fatal, but certainly for Air Wave.

My proposal for a Madam Fatal re-imagining!

Hmm... given the number of "rich playboy" characters in comics, I'm kind of surprised the "butler-as-sidekick" category didn't take off.

Especially because Alfred was really popular in the mid and late Golden Age. He even had a back-up feature in Batman, "Adventures of Alfred".

That's actual an interesting observation, EDE and shows just how more pervasive Superman was during Batman during these years (though obviously, Batman was incredibly saturated within American culture, just not as much as Superman). For instance, Lois Lane inspired dozens and dozens of knock-offs in the 1950's, 1960's and even all the way up until today. But there weren't many Commissioner Gordon or Alfred knock-offs that I can think of. Unless I'm just not aware of them?

On the other hand... there were dozens and dozens of Robin knockoffs. I'm guessing there were probably more Commisssioner Gordon types, but they just aren't as well known. Inspector Henderson in Superman and Commissioner Dolan from The Spirit are the only ones that come to mind as being in that vague mold.

Interestingly, Alfred in his first appearance was very much in the "rotund, comic character" category, but was changed to fit his portrayal in the first Batman serial. In the long term, that may be the reason he survived as a character.