Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Matter-Eater Lad, Bouncing Boy, Chemical King, and Ferro Lad!

I agree there is some silliness built into the foundations; even the comparatively-serious (to Silver Age, at least) Levitz era had mid-to-late-20-somethings called "boy" and "girl," and people carrying white dwarf stars around inside Earth's atmosphere.

But there is a threshold - just as in the 70s Lar and Clark could literally fly to and from another galaxy in the same day, contemporary standards and knowledge raise the threshold (no pun intended) for suspension of disbelief to higher levels. Super-bouncing and eating any substance may be cool to kids who grew up in the 60s, and fans who appreciate retro or silliness, but these do not seem to be positive attributes for most readers of contemporary super-hero comic books. I would assume most of us would like a good, current LSH book that sells well enough to remain voable, rather than just reminisce about This era or That era, and I do not see these character as appealing to regular, committed comics people who aren't already buying it. As we have seen, there are literally dozens of characters that have served as Legionnaires over the past 48 (!) years; not all of them have to be kept current and updated.

If Chuck and Tenzil fit into the cartoon (I haven't seen it yet), that is great. I would suggest that the lighter, more youthful orientation of the cartoon is the most (and perhaps only) appropriate venue for those characters.

No? I suppose heroes that kill adversaries and fight each other portray much more positive attributes to readers today?

Seems to me that this version IS selling well enough to be viable while reminiscing about the Silver Age. It certainly has shown itself to be at least as viable as any version since the original, at least from the sales figures I've seen posted and discussed around here.

Okay, fair enough. You can have Saturn Girl, Brainy, and Projectra back.


I would suggest that you may be wrong. That cartoon is already bringing in new fans as we've seen around here on Legion World and will likely see in sales of the book.

The ability to point-blank destroy any material object in the universe sounds pretty impressive to me. Hell, Wolverine's practically based around a lesser version of the same ability. Destroying the Miracle Machine, wrecking the Atomic Axe, mutilating Pulsar Stargrave...Tenzil'd be a plot device unto himself if he wasn't underused.
Certainly his power ranks well above being, say, an ordinary girl who turns into three ordinary girls.

As for his name--if he wasn't named something funny, it would show that he didn't know his power was funny, which would be really not cool.

I doubt I represent the target audience of the book--possibly of any book, but I was a teenage fan who got into the Legion right around Zero Hour. I had no knowledge of, and therefore no nostalgia for, any earlier versions. Nonetheless, as I dug out back issues the Matter-Eater Lads from the 5YL era--both of them--became by far my favorite characters. Precisely because they had a silly-sounding power, and they knew they did, and they didn't worry about trying to impress anybody with it. In fact, they apparently understood the basic silliness of the Legion concept: a dozen or so teenagers with assorted bizarre abilities form a club to save the galaxy? The M-E Lads provided a metacommentary on the whole idea and the general superhero experience that I thought was very cool. They were like the LSH version of Deadpool.

And then, looking back at the Adventure era, even a more seriously-portrayed M-E Lad has the virtue of being pretty much the archetypal Legionnaire. He has a power--a unique power, unlike the "Kryptonian-minus" powersets of T-Wolf and Ferro and Blok and Kent Shakespeare--which is utterly useless about 95% of the time and utterly critical the other 5%. Who better to have on the comicverse's most diversity-championing superteam?

I've never seen a character who can eat anything be rejected by the readers--mostly because other than Tenzil I've never seen such a character period--but Speedball seemed to be quite popular on the bouncing front.

If the cartoon is popular, perhaps a lighter and more youthful orientation could be appropriate to the comic as well. Particularly in a comic which is currently focusing on the issue of youth.

Nonetheless, I'm not all that anxious to bring in M-E Lad while Waid's writing. He does humor very well, but it's sitcom-style humor, not the absurdist style you need for Tenzil's personality.

Bouncing Boy I think he'd do just fine with, though. It's not like he had problems writing the Flash, who was good friends with a fat man who could inhale and puke out unlimited quantities of material....

Unfortunately, by the time there were postboot writers who really wanted to play with that, they handed it off to Kid Quantum...

Sadly, you are very correct.

A few things.

It was with sarcasm that I used the word hip. But I am sure el Valenciano Emerald Empress can explain what hip is if need be. Go ahead do it in spanish if need be...atleast I know Vee would understand.

I was also kidding about how Tenz should rip out throats with his teeth. This was because he was compared to a lion, etc.

Again I have no problem with Tenzil as a character. His codename and powers...yes. You might as well put a guy that has fart powers. I loved Tenz in v4. But the atmosphere of that book made it work. Just like Grant Morrisson's All Star Superman can make BB and MEL work. This book I don't think so. If Tenz had a tweak in powers I would love to see him. And heck the name Matter Eater Lad wouldn't be so bad if they actually made fun of it. btw, the names Princess Projectra and Triplicate Girl I also despise.

For the record I love Chuck as well...the character. I liked him as the Legion sidekick in the last boot. Sure make him chunky/fat whatever. But the part of having him inflate to a beach ball? Geez. Silicone Dream, Speedball doesn't inflate to a giant beach ball.

Yes I guess all comics are silly. But there are degrees and personally I don't like the more silly things. More importantly I think these characters put off more people than they may attract. Sure if the book is geared towards children I don't have a problem. Personally I hope both characters are part of the animated book.

Also I apologize for all of those I made angry. You ofcourse have a right to call for any character you want. I just love the Legion and think some of these more obscure/silly characters are more of a put off to other readers. I grew up with a Legion that was the #1 or #2 book at DC at the time...and I liked it. And I usually like the higher selling books cause it seems it has the most mass appeal to readers. Imagine that. I don't want the Legion to be a sub-culture of a sub-culture of a sub-culture. I want them in the forefront.

No offense, Vee, but that comes across as lame as the argument that allowing gay marriages opens the door to marriages with animals. There are plenty of non-lethal heroes that fit modern tastes - the entire current LSH comic lineup for instance. My point was that not all characters hold up over time to changing tastes, and I can't see BB or MEL helping sales with anyone but already-existing Silver Age LSH fans - and they are already either buying the book, or have tuned out modern LSH (and maybe comics in general) as "not 'my' legion" - are they really the core marketing group to try to lure back?

Yes. Would BB or MEL really help sales? or possibly even hurt sales? The era when LSH sold the best - mid 70s to late 80s - featured MEL very little, and BB mostly as a former/reserve member.

true enough. but if the regular book becomes more like the comic, why have two books? Why should those of us who favor other overlooked characters be subject to BB and MEL in both books, rather than having some variety?

Between the Silver-ish aspects of the current series and the cartoon, Silver fans have plenty of things they can call their own.

But fans of various eras of characters from the mid-70s to mid-00s have nada.

I'm not very familiar with Speedball - I recognize the name, never read a story with him. He had his own series for a while and later was part of the New Warriors? Is that him? How long did either last? Is he a beloved, missed, or reoccuring character today? I ask because I don't know.

I respect your opinion, but I offer mine only as a contrast, not to belittle: to me, KQ was a far better character, and I am glad we had her instead of a revised CK. To me, CK was the equivalent of a generic original ST red-shirt. I never felt we were given enough to really care about the character. Any CK/KQ debate, to me, is like saying one of those misc. red-shirts should have been revived for ST:TNG instead of developing Geordie or Dr. Crusher.

I respect your opinion, but I offer mine only as a contrast, not to belittle: to me, KQ was a far better character, and I am glad we had her instead of a revised CK. To me, CK was the equivalent of a generic original ST red-shirt. I never felt we were given enough to really care about the character. Any CK/KQ debate, to me, is like saying one of those misc. red-shirts should have been revived for ST:TNG instead of developing Geordie or Dr. Crusher.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Fair enough. I can't argue that Condo got very little attention since that is one of my big complaints. On the other hand, KQ got way too much attention and she suffered for it. Surely you agree that she is one of the least liked Legionnaires from the previous run. Which is not to say that she has no fans, just that she doesn't rank way up there.

In my book, she got plenty of development time so she really should be at the back of the line when it comes to reintroducing characters in this boot. I want to see characters that haven't had their turn in a while brought back first, then bring back the others.

BTW, I neither agree with your characterization of Condo as a red shirt nor with the favorable one of KQ with Geordie or Dr. Crusher. Both of them were very likable. I think I would see Jasmine more like one of the Ferengie (sp?) ... around lots but very annoying.

I like KQII too (moreso before she got overexposed in the latter part of DnA's run) but surely the only reasons she is a "far better character" than Condo are that -

a) she was around in a time when Legionnaire's individual characterisation was of much greater import to readers and writers than when Condo was

and

b) she benefitted from having MUCH more time devoted to her characterisation by virtue of the fact that she was on the team for longer and was a featured member in MANY stories (unlike Condo who only got one short story about him and that was after he was dead).

If Condo had been given the same chance at appealing to a new generation of Legion readers that say, Invisible Kid had who knows how many fans he'd have now.

So saying KQII's a better character just because she filled Condo's spot on the team and got all the attention and characterisation he couldv'e been getting is a little specious IMO.

Vee-

I never saw KQ2 as unlikeable or overexposed. I know you and some of the other staunch Silverists didn't care for her, but I can't really say she is or isn't one of the least liked. But I base my preferences on characters on how I respond to the stories, not what other fans think.

Until this thread, I never heard of an argument that her presence somehow prevented CK from appearing. I can vaguely see that, but it doesn't quite wash. Her powers were fairly loosely defined, and thus more flexible for story-tellers, while CK's were probably too tightly defined, tying writers' hands via ignorance rather than opening up possibilities via imagination. Yes, more imaginative or educated writers could have used CK more and better (that's true of any Bates-era LSHer!), but I can also see CK and KQ working together, complimentary, a la Thom and Ayla, Vi and Gim, etc.

I can see the reasoning of KQ pushed to the back of the line for redevelopment; but by extending that logic, many of the "classic" Legionnaires should also be benched: Rokk, Querl, Imra, Lyle, Lu... while all the characters who haven't appeared in years should have center stage: Jacques, Dawny, Condo, Kent, Kono, Mysa, Blok, Troy, Quis, Brek, Pol, Tellus, Laurel, Danielle, Catspaw, Dragonmage and anyone I've overlooked.

Blacula- I generally agree with all your points.

OMG! I would actually *LOVE* it if that happened! I can't tell you how bored I am with Rokk, Imra, Garth, Querl, Jo, Tinya, etc.

Bring on a Legion with all those later characters you mentioned (plus Chuck and Tenzil ) and I would be all over it!

Just throwing my 2 cents into the Bouncing Boy / Matter-Eater Lad debate for a second...

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but a lot of the nay-sayers seem to be saying/implying that these 2 characters wouldn't work in a contemporary Legion series because they're too unhip, silly, stuck in the 60s or whatever. And that today's readership wouldn't be able to take them seriously and that they would therefore bring the Legion down.

But really - what evidence/precedent have the nay-sayers got that they're basing this theory on? A whole bunch of hokey 60s Legion elements surivived and prospered in the reboot and still do in today's Legion. Spider-Girl, Triplicate Girl, the Subs, Space-Whales, Super-Pets... they don't get more hokey than them and yet each one of them has made an appearance in the comics in recent years. And the polymer shield in the sky hasn't fallen yet.

As for Bouncing Boy and Matter-Eater Lad themselves being too hokey. Well it could be a valid point. And it could not. Who knows? The point is no one knows, because there are no 2 similar characters in today's comics that we can draw parallels with. (Speedball's powers are only slightly similar to Chuck's and his visual is completely different.) So if anything, I think their uniqueness would only be a positive thing for them.

Thirdly, Chuck and Tenzil's hokeyness/unhipness is only as hokey and unhip as their writer wants it to be. Most writers could easily take either of these 2 characters and put any spin on them they wanted to. They could be light-hearted and fun, grim and gritty, or straight and narrow... or anything and everything in between. The power doesn't make the character - the characterisation does. And a good writer should be able to make you like *anyone*.

And finally, let's say Chuck and Tenzil do come back and they are just as light-hearted and funny-looking as they've almost always been. Would it really be that bad for the Legion? It certainly didn't hurt Grant Morrison's JLA. Plastic Man's portrayal in that series was 10 times more whacky and silly and light-hearted and "unhip" than Chuck and Tenzil's could ever hope to be, and yet that stayed a Top 10 book for the duration of Morrison's run and Plastic Man remained one of the team's more popular members the whole time!

So I guess the moral of my story is - if you don't like a character, fine. Say it. That's an extremely valid reason to not want a character on a team. (I don't want Brainiac 5 or Saturn Girl on the team but I don't think TPTB will ever give me that break!)

But not wanting a character in a book because of how tens of thousands of strangers *might* react to said characters based on little to no actual precedental information is a little wrong-headed I think. And maybe a little insulting too? People like to think for themselves and they'd probably prefer the opportunity to form their own opinions on Chuck and Tenzil - not have their hipness dictated to them by some other reader who's already made up his mind based on stories he's never read. (Yes - that was a shout-out to you Jorge. Unless you've read the Adventure-era by now.)

Except for not wanting Brainiac 5 and Saturn Girl, I agree with everything Blacula says.

I believe Wesley Crusher is the analogy you were looking for.

Anyway, I'd just like to remind everyone that few DC characters have made as well-received comeback in the past year or so as Detective Chimp. And this was a character who sat unused for years because he was "too Silver Age" and "not a serious character".

Not to mention Egg Fu of all characters being featured as a major villain in DC's current top selling series. And that's a character even *I* would never of considered reviving.

Thanks to Morrison, probably. Morrison'll revive anybody.

So will Geoff Johns, but he'll surgically remove every last speck of humor from them first.

That's perfect!

Let me clear this up a bit. I don't DISLIKE KQ, I just don't like her all that much. Never really saw the appeal she had nor why she got so much panel time when there were so many other very likable characters available during the prior run. I do not begrudge her a place in the Legion, just like I don't begrudge Ultra Boy, Phantom Girl, Dawnstar, Saturn Girl or Brainy theirs. I've never been a big fan of any of them but that doesn't mean they don't belong.

I agree that their powers were not the same, yet I have heard that reasoning many times. I don't know if the creators ever expressed that themselves or it was just some fans, but I've seen it said more than once that KQ was the rebooted Condo and that's not I trade I can be happy with. Just like you, I think CK & KQ would make an interesting team up.

You'll get very little arguement from me there! (Well, maybe about Dawny....another character whose appeal I never got. Now if she were a hot, barechested he maybe I could warm up to him! )

I would love to see most of those others you mentioned back. But you seem to forget that we old timers have seen some of the originals benched before. Imra, Garth, & Rokk retired and made way for the likes of Quis, Tellus, Brek, Pol etc. So I sure don't have a problem with that type of scenario, if it's handled ina way that makes sense (as it was back then)

In this version however, it wouldn't be necessary. We don't have to lose a member in order to get any of the others. Bring 'em on!

Let me just say that if I *really* had my way, we'd be reading a version of the Legion in which most of the original members had long since retired and been succeeded by younger members, except for a couple of "senior advisors". What I don't like is mucking with continuity so that suddenly such-and-such Adventure Era member was *never* a member of the team or joins significantly later than other early members.

I actually feel the same way about, for example, Wonder Woman being retconned out of the early Justice League (and Justice Society for that matter).

I didn't forget; I just wasn't about to start delving into a lot of LSH history, as every era had its bench-warmers. But no era has sent the entire Silver vets to the bench - not Levitz, nor TMK.

I have nothing agianst CK; I just never saw any particular reason to be drawn to him, thus I don't really care whether he comes back.

It seems that those who either don't like KQ, or, like you, feel she got too much attention, seem to hold her as secondary to a slate of generally Silver Age characters (although to your credit you partially deflate your own role in that theory by listing your general preferences). Except for her tenure as leader, I don't see significant "panel-hogging" and how can a leader not be among the main cast? In L-Lost, she was 1 of 12, and got an average level of time among the main 10 (Jan didn't appear enough to be averaged in) - less than 'Kari, Garyh, Imra and Jo, but more than Candi or Cham. Prior to LL, she was not a particularly focused-on character.

I would not object to CK returning, if a writer would actually make him a developed character with a useful role in the LSH. I never saw that effort make in CK's own time.

I will also agree that writers like Grant Morrison, Alan Moore or Neil Gaiman could make BB and MEL work, but how many writers approach their calibur? I guess I'd clarify my position that because of their particular retro-ness, they should be done right, or not at all, and since most writers are not up to the challenge, I suggest not at all is the proper course to take at present.

I agree entirely.

I have less problem with alternate timelines that are clearly, entirely different (Reboot and Threeboot), but the original Bierbaum plan for the Legionnaires series, retconning the Silver Age, I would have objected to, just as I disliked removing Supes and Bats from JLA and JSA history 20 years ago.

I guess I just don't see that BB and MEL are any different in this respect than the Legion as a whole are. Most of what makes the Legion special as a concept in my eyes are rooted in "retro" Silver Age stuff. It's the code names, the tryouts, the Substitutes, the bizarre Sci-Fi elements, the saluting the flag and reciting the Oath, the reader involvement, etc. Stripped of all that it becomes just another generic super-hero title and, from my point of view, incredibly boring.