Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Visionaries of Tomorrow Shooter off Legion?

Also, Bates' style is not one that holds up well over time. Even by the early 80s, his style seemed a bit long in the tooth.

I cannot see any significant numbers of Bates fans still lingering. He may have been okay in the day but he has not produced a body of work over time that has withstood the test of time.

I agree with Kayak and Cobie.

To say Johns has solely been taking a nostalgia approach is simply untrue. Whoever said that either did not read the Action arc, or read it with the heavy-bias swittch turned up to its highest setting.

I never said nostalgia. In fact, he has made many changes to the characters (Brainy is the most obvious example). However, it is a Superman history, not a Legion-centric one. Which is fine for Action Comics.
But I really don't want to see a Superman & The Legion of Super Heroes book because I am sure it will be another spotlight for Superman and not for LSH.
The fact that Action Comics sells above LSh has less to do with LSH and way more for being a Johns/Frank book or Superman (which has been outselling LSH for years). This is not a reasonable motive for booting Shooter.
I also believe that good characters written by lousy teams (like Batman by Chuch Dixon or JLA written by Dan Jurgens) are usually lousy. It's the mix of good properties AND good teams that make it work. Or does anyone think that LSH was readable during McCraw's tenure?
For instance, Peter Milligan's Infinity Inc was a great concept for a great writing but had really miserable art. I can't understand what gives to DC for choosing such a lousy art team for a book more likely to attract mature readers.

One thing that gets overlooked a lot in discussions about Legion continuity:

Superboy left the Legion in 1980. After that, he only appeared once in a blue moon. I know for a fact ('cuz Paul Levitz printed it in DC Sampler way back when) that when Levitz and Giffen took over the book, its sales jumped by 50,000 copies. And yes, I know that Superboy was in the Great Darkness Saga, but that's not why people bought it. They essentially produced a Legion series that didn't have Superboy in every issue, and they did just fine without him.

The reason why the Legion ceased to be a best-seller at DC had to do with distribution problems, not necessarily due to the content of the book. When DC pulled both the Legion and the New Teen Titans from the newsstands, at a time when newsstand sales were dominant, in favor of reprints, that was when they cut the throats of both books. A year later, they did the same thing with Batman and the Outsiders, and it went from being DC's third best-selling book to cancelled in just over two years. The readership for all of those titles were split in two at a point in time when the direct sales marketplace was still in its infancy, and the half that bought the books on the newsstands wasn't enough to keep the reprints going. That left the direct sales versions with sales figures which were minus all of the people who couldn't buy the direct sales books. It wasn't until 2003 that Titans and Outsiders became hits again.

There is a tendency on the Internet to oversimplify things. People point to Crisis as the reason why the Legion became a mess. Wrong. Superboy wasn't in the book anymore anyway, so what difference did his absence make? Its sales were hurting because its distribution was effectively cut in half, and people also like to gloss over the fact that Paul Levitz kept writing the book until 1989, four years after Crisis on Infinite Earths and three years after the Byrne Superman reboot. Folks, those stories still count. Geoff Johns isn't ignoring them. Just because we haven't seen Tellus yet doesn't mean that he didn't join the group along with Polar Boy and Sensor Girl, who we have seen. We didn't see the White Witch until DCU #0, and we haven't seen Chameleon Boy at all. It'll take time to get around to everyone. Remember, Quislet went back to his own dimension and Magnetic Kid died in the Magic Wars. That only leaves Tellus unaccounted for, and he could have died, quit, or just gone home for all we know. His absence does not mean that all of the Levitz stories post-pocket universe did not happen.

You can't just throw out every Legion story written from 1986-89 because it's easier to ignore them. Given Johns love of continuity, and his showing of the Time Trapper making reference to the pocket universe in Action Comics, he's just gonna say that all the twists and turns were his doing. That does not negate every Legion story published from 1986-89. It doesn't even come close to negating them.

I dont know that I agree with you there. Bates was pretty notorious for making mistakes with Legion history, so I don't want him handed the keys to the 31st century again. For example, during his run, he had Matter Eater Lad eat an energy beam, and he said Garth and Mekt were twins and Ayla was their younger sister. I know we should blame the editor for not catching these kinds of gaffes, but if the writer doesn't know it to begin with I'd say we have a problem.

I was a fan of Cary's Flash and I really enjoyed Captain Atom, but I don't need him to visit the future again any time soon.

The formula seems simple to me. Geoff John's Action Legion arc was successful because:
1) It included the Superman character/mythos
2) It didn't try to rewrite anything, instead it told an adventure based on a foundation of pre-written characters, and added to it.
3) It upheld the Legion's fundamental theme of youthful optimism.

Waid's Legion violated all three points above, and bombed, showing life only when Supergirl was first injected. TMK also violated said points to a certain extent, and it didn't sell well, either. DnA did better on the second two points, but was missing the link to Superman (probably thru no fault of their own). Currently, Bedard and Shooter have improved on the current run but are still hampered (IMO) by straightening out the Waid revisionism. Neither have had enough time to make their mark with truly original Legion stories of their own. I totally expect Mr. Shooter can sell many Legion issues, if given the opportunity. From the start, I wish he had been asked to begin his 3rd Legion run from the Lightning Saga point, not Waid's ruins. I've been a little surprised he was so enthusiastic about what Waid had given him to work with.

That is true. Johns has merely applied his usual formula: take something classic and add a new twist to it; it worked on JSA, it worked on teen Titans... It just feels "right"... Even if i don't agree with all he's done in Action

Again, I don't see Action Comics doubling sales for the presence of LSH. So we can't say it was "successful" as a product for any of the reasons above. Youthful Optimism is one of those arguments TMK haters used to say back in the days. I never read Levitz run as "youthful" much less as "optimistic". So, I am sorry to say, but it's not an argument that holds at all. As Glen perfectly pointed out, much of what is taken for granted for the reasons LSH failed were nothing else than bad BUSINESS choices (wrong distribution, wrong team, wrong editors).

TMK was VERY successful, considering it was a Deluxe Format book, set completely outside chronology and featuring extremely intricate artwork with sometimes not a single punch inside. Oh, and lots and lots of dialogue and extra written material. Sales proved that. Sales only dropped significantly when Keith left the book. And that was due to very, very, very poor storytelling and rotating artists that lacked Jason Pierson or Stuart Immonen's classy style.

The reason that most Legion fans who don't like the 3boot don't like it is because the characterisation and history is not true to the past.

Karate Kid was always in love with Jeckie and now he's shafting Light Lass. No way! Star Boy black? No way he's the bearded guy who loves Dream Girl.

The same was true of the reboot. Changing characters and origins just pi**es people off and even the best writers can't recover from that level of disillusion.

The Legion needs to be the classic Legion to regain the true fans rather than the kids who will read for two years and then move on. The sales of Action have shown that. Whether it is Geoff Johns or Jim Shooter, I honestly don't care as long as it is well written and 'true' to the past. Mr Manapul should be able to work with either, surely.

Going back to the Pre-Direct sales Market.

The Legion thrived in the 60's while the X-Men got cancelled.

The Legion thrived in the 70's while the Teen Titans got cancelled.

During DC's Implosion in 1978, 31 DC titles were cancelled that year,But Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes continued to sell well.

It still sold well when Gerry Conway and Joe Staton did the title and The Legion took over the book completely.

I can almost guarantee if you were to ask Jim Shooter,Paul Levitz,Kieth Giffen,Tom & Mary and Mark Waid if Superboy/Superman was an important part of the Legion they would all say yes.

It's easy for me to see that a Legion without Kal-El has half of it's concept missing,For he was the foundation on which they were built upon.

That said do I wan't him in every issue (No), But
I do wan't the Legion back that had a history with him (Yes).

I remember when I first read the Pocket Universe story,It was like a slap in the face that everything I ever knew about the Legion and their 30 year history was a lie.

as much as i don't want to agree with you there i have to

the changes piss me off cause a lot of them just don't have any build up

people might be happier with changes if we got more background with them other then just taking things on faith that brin and jacike are soul mates

think about it years ago we got see the relationships slowly build and we got invested in them,in the threeboot we got none of that the closest we got to that is with element lad and trip and that one sucked we saw one date then bamn nothing but them holding hands in the background

(side note one of my biggest pet peeves in the threeboot is when brainiac 5 and super girl finally got to meet one another. that was the one thing i was look fowarded to when she did join the team, and i was so mad that not only did he not crush on her he was quite the asshole.the again this new supergirl is almost retarded )

It's the reason I didn't like Smallville, as much as I wanted to. I don't want to see Pete Ross as African-American and Lana Lang as Asian-American. I'm not descriminating against anyone here, they just aren't who I remember in all my years of reading Superman comics. If the creators of Smallville wanted to introduce new characters with ethnic diversity to the Smallville tapestry, go right ahead! Just don't mess with my continuity!!

I'd wager that any money, may it be charged with long years of "fannish devotion", or may it come from a brand-new pocket, is equally welcome to DC. Therefore, ideally, the Legion needs to gain the "kids", as you're putting it, on top of the "true fans" (I'd love to rephrase that expression as "people who have been reading since long before the first reboot"). I'm also pretty sure that new readers won't jump ship after a short amount of time for the reason that they're unable to work up any true devotion for a "bastardized" (i.e. rebooted) product which lacks the inherently "rightful" essence of the original Legion - a Legion they probably wouldn't "get" either, being fickle "kids" and not true, grizzeled devotees to the Legion mythos . As you say, the quality of the writing factors in prominently, as well. I'd really love it if people would primarily judge according to this factor, no matter which version of the Legion they're dealing with.

I disagree with the original Legion automatically being the cure-all for what ails the LoSH. It's only natural that the longtime readership which favours this version of the Legion decreases over the course of time, just like that of the other boots - due to change of interests, growing out of comics, dying in freak lawnmower accidents, or whatever else the reasons might be. But to new potential readers it means zilch that the original Legion is the original Legion, dripping history from its every pore. Since you can't work them from a nostalgia angle you have to hook them on the strength of the writing - and I'm really of the opinion that Legion sales do need these readers, as well.

"new readers"

I just think new readers aren't a real factor. Very few comics are geared towards new readers. This is not my preference mind you but the comic industry. They want to milk the old readers for all their worth imo.

All the new readers I see are usually video game junkies that are more interested how much the Sentry can bench press and if it's a cool cover.

oh there was so much wrong with smalville it hurts to think about it

kinda pissed they never had the legion in it

You don't have to re-invent a series to get new readers. X-Men have been published steadily since 1975. Probably half of its readership wasn't even alive then.

A good story an art team will create enough buzz to bring in new readers. That's how Legion rebounded in the 70s with Cockrum and in the 80s with Levitz/Giffen.

Shooter is doing an okay job. His characterization is great, but there isn't much story to sink your teeth into.

It's not that I think Geoff Johns is always brillaint, but more often than not -- he delivers. I'd like to see him continue writing the Legion from Action (though some of the costume Gary Frank designed need rebooted).

The story in Action Comics is a Legion for Superman fans, not a Legion for Legion fans. For this reason, and those you say, its sales can't be compared to the threeboot Legion, either under Waid/Kitson or under Shooter/Manuapul.

I agree with Jorge. DC could care less at this point about new readers, in the sense of those that have never picked up a comic before or at least a DC comic before. Their strategy for the past few years has been to try to get the current "hardcore DC fanbase" to feel they need to pick up as many titles in their line as possible. The Legion hasn't benefited from the current crossover/event craze, being isolated in the 31st century. But by connecting them to Superman and sticking Superboy-Prime in the series, they can make the case that the Legion is an important chapter in their ongoing 150-part crossover or whatever. As a marketing strategy it makes a lot of sense, at least in the short term.

I think you are partially mistaken. LSH was actively involved in the latest crossover (even by becoming Supergirl and LSH). DCU#0 is also a proof DC wants to grab new readers. As for how successful they will be, that's something else.
New comic book readers? That's also a problem that runs way above mere "reboots". So, in that case, you are correct: DC is trying to milk current readers into trying LSH. And even though Shooter and Manapul do a better LSH than Johns has shown me so far, it is stupid not to consider that for CURRENT LSH newbies, Johns is way more glamourous and attractive than Shooter.

I wouldn't say that LSH was "actively involved" in the latest crossover. It's true that they've been trying the strategy of marketing the LSH as important to the DCU for awhile, going back to Mark Waid's original claim that the current series was anticipating Infinite Crisis a year ahead of time. And then Supergirl showing up for awhile, and Booster Gold making a brief appearance. Still... while the event comics have had an effect on the LSH, it would be a stretch to say that they've had much of an impact on events in the mainstream DCU, at least up until the introduction of the Johns Legion.

And, as I understand it, DCU #0 was more of an afterthought... an attempt to link Countdown to Final Crisis to Final Crisis itself, than a serious attempt to market to new readers. And if it was meant as an attempt, it apparently was such a piss poor attempt that it's hard to take seriously as such. I could quote the numerous reveiws of how inaccessible it was, but I think we've got a whole thread full of them somewhere.

Well he did operate under some heavy handed Editors on most of his assignments...but IMO, he was never particularly exiciting at dialogue.

But I'd say that's the shortcoming of Levitz as well...


I actually think Tony Bedard may have been the best dialogue guy to ever work on the book.


Geoff Johns is hanging around...


Which gives him a lot in common with the Post Crisis Legions.


Seriously though, he was a never a star, except for maybe a brief period during his Legion run.


To tell you the truth...he's extremely similar to Paul Levitz. He was viewd more or less as a DC Staff Writer or something...and the only time his name stood out was when when he was working on the Legion.

Oh I'm not saying Cary is a master of Legion Continuity, like I said, he wasn't really a fan of the book. What I'm saying is that he's the guy that could come up with a working and inventive concept that could fix the continuity errors in the Legion if he was presented with that problem.


IOW, he'd probably have to be told what needed to be fixed, before he could fix it. But he does have that kind of creative mind...that comes up with good explanations.


I never read his Flash...and while I am a huge fan of the era of the Legion he wrote...it has about 90% to do with Dave Cockrum and about 10% to do with Cary Bates.

At the same time...I don't feel his Legion run was a true indicator of his writing ability, as Murray Boltinoff was just as heavy handed and creatively constraining for him as he was for Shooter.


His Captain Atom work is what I rate as his best work as a writer IMO.

I do know the Johns is a Cary Bates fan though...and the Johns...he has some pull at DC right now.

And isn't Bates the guy that created Superboy Prime in the first place? I can't remember if was Bates or Maggin that created him...

Moot point I guess since Superboy Prime is way different now than he was at the time of his creation.

Ah well, that's a shame if that's the case, then. I admit I have no clue about the workings of the comic book industry. Trying to gain fresh readers in place of the declining number of established ones simply sounded logical - as well as potentially doable - from my perspective, since I've been that obviously near-mystical animal called "new reader" not so long ago.

Without having any sales figures handy, I recall that sales were not that great after the honeymoon period with TMK. Sales consistently dipped even before Giffen jumped. It eventually got to the point where they didn't even match the "old, tired end" of the Levitz run. While I'm not a TMK "hater" (I don't really "hate" anything) the truth is that Giffen's monster experiment on the Legion ran out of gas - he constantly drew on the wealth of the Legion foundation, but added little, all the while maiming, disfiguring and killing favorite characters. The TMK Legion was unrecognizable from what previously existed, and that cost the title readers as much as any 'Deluxe Format' or other circumstances may have. That is completely why even the DC PTB eventually realized they needed to end the debacle while some remnants of a core readership remained. If sales were so great, that version would still be with us.

John's Action Legion respects and accentuates what has been a winning formula in the past. I don't believe sales have to double in Action for it to be deemed a success. If 5-10k LSHers crossover to pick up Action, and the reverse becomes true, then everyone would be happy.