Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Random DCnU Revue

Wow! Good deal from you CBS.

Wow! That's a fantastic deal!

That IS an excellent deal ... I would blow that 475 before I left the store!

I also think it's kick ass you returned all your DCnU books!

If only all you Johnny-come-lately DCnU nay-sayers had had the strength to reject this crappy boot at the start like I did, this abomination of our favorite characters would have been aborted by now and Dan Didio would be out of a job.

And then we would have gotten real change at DC instead of more of the same except "darker" (oooooohh) and "edgier" (oooooohh) and with uglier costumes.

Bah! I was hating on DC before you, whipper-snapper! But even I was too late. Reboot and a few others took their measure early on. Hard to imagine DC has basically been a shit company for almost like 7-8 years.

I blame Identity Crisis. While I agree there was a period of stagnation before it, the huge sales and reception that (IMHO) turd garnered set the tone for years to come. That's not to say there haven't been bright spots, but the general trend has been to places I don't like.

That's just what I was going to nail down as the first sign that DC was going in a direction I didn't want to follow, the gratuitous death of Sue Dibney and all the wankery that surrounded it.

I've long held that handing over the reigns of superhero genre comicdom to a set of enfants terrible that *loathe* the very concept of heroism and seek only to 'deconstruct' and tear it down and drag it through the mud (without building up anything worth taking its place, just an exercise in smashing down sandcastles, like a child's tantrum) was the worst decision that editors at DC and Marvel made.

I don't read stories about idealistic heroes who dress in bright colors because I'm all grim and fatalistic and hate the very idea of heroism or idealism or dreaming about a better world, so I'd rather they not be written by such bitter broken disillusioned people either.

*NOD NOD NOD*

My thoughts exactly. I don't understand what's so wrong with superheroes being superheroes. It's been the going trend across the board lately (books, movies, comics, music) that the only way something is deemed "good" is for it to be saddled with these poorly constructed "deep and edgy" story-lines. Heroes aren't allowed to be inherently good anymore. Even heroes like Superman are subject to this constant barrage of people who want to make him "darker".

Morrison made him black.

Identity Crisis is definitely where the rot began. But we can't blame a piece of fiction for the awfulness that has been DC ever since then. We have heard from multiple ex-writers at DC that all creative decisions there are filtered through one man. A man whose first big hit was the above-mentioned series and who considers it the high-light of his career - Dan Didio.

As long as he or his imitating lieutenants are in charge at that company it will never, ever change. So buying any DCnU books hoping things will get better is pointless and unhelpful. Things won't get better until he's gone.

Someone should create the opposite of one of those "It Gets Better" videos for DC on YouTube. haha

And yes, it is sad to believe that this company has been so shit for so long; long before the DCnU IMO. It's like Dan Didio is this deranged pervert who kidnapped our loved ones 7 or 8 years ago and then proceeded to debase and degrade them in public and we're all too helpless to do anything but stand and watch... or turn away like I and some others here eventually did.

Well said!

Times like this I think I am a complete pariah in these parts. O_O

Personally, I think DC's probably the strongest that it's been in years, and it's given a lot of smaller characters a chance to shine and gave some of the bigger franchises a good polishing up, especially characters like Superman and Wonder Woman.

Are there some books that I think are bad? Sure. But you know what other periods of comics had bad books? All of them.

And I really don't get how this run is being characterized by being excessively "grim" and "gritty." I honestly feel that the term "grim and gritty" has been run so far down the groun in use that it's basically code for "I just don't like it." It seems like everything outside of Tiny Titans is grimdark. It's really weird.

Jay, in my case, I honestly don't mean to demean your (or anyone else's) opinions by sharing my disdain for the New 52. I personally feel disenfranchised with it and use this forum to share my feelings. However, believe it or not, I'm happy for anyone who feels satisfied with it.

In a way, my dissatisfaction is as much or more about my just feeling burned out on DC and Marvel's superhero comic book universes as anything else. I'm down to two DCnU books and four Marvel books. Back in the day, I bought as many as 40 or 50 books a month between the two. Now, I mostly like creator-owned books from Image, Dark Horse and others, along with a smattering of licensed books like the Buffyverse, the Lone Ranger, etc.

If I weren't the me I am now, it's entirely possible that I would be devouring all the DCnU and Marvel Now stuff like so many fans are at this point. So it's without any condescension in my intent that I am happy for anyone that enjoys what they're reading, regardless of how I may feel about it. I'm sure that many fans who enjoyed Marvel and DC in the '60s were probably put off by the books put out in the '80s that made me fall in love with their respective universes. It's all cyclical, and I get that.

Please feel free to talk about all the books you love. You are no pariah here. Everyone is welcome at legion World, and I'm sure there are others who share your enjoyment of the New 52 and who will respond in kind. I look forward to reading your comments, regardless!

Nope. The first major sign was the "Graduation Day" miniseries a full year earlier that dismantled Young Justice (and the Titans revival). All the signs were there in that - gratuitous slaughter, a plot that really made no sense but was editorially-demanded to get rid of a couple of unwanted books, and so on.

That, Superman #200 and the ending of the postboot Legion were what really killed DC for me. By Identity Crisis, I'd already given up.

Sheesh! You guys are all wet!

It's a well-established fact that DC has been mostly crap since 1985-86!

Rubbish. Everyone knows things really started to slide in 1897. They were obviously trying to shamelessly ride the wave of McKinley-mania.

How could I have forgotten Degradation Day? I regularly list that as one of the worst comics I've ever read. A complete failure on every level. And you're right, Reboot - the hands of editorial were all over that book.

I'm sure the pattern probably did start before Identity Crisis, it may have started even earlier than Degradation Day actually - we need to find out when Didio became Editor-in-Chief and which characters got killed off that month haha, but Idenity Crisis (probably by virtue of it's high profile) really does feel like the Ground Zero of the modern DCU.

It has everything Didio loves in a comic - inappropriate sexual violence, the death of beloved minor characters, the grimifying of previously light-hearted characters, nonsensical ret-cons, the sullying of characters/personalities/histories, a pointless and obviously editorially-mandated blink-and-you'll-miss-it death of a major character just to give the series some unneeded pathos... and I say all that as someone who actually enjoyed Identity Crisis! haha

I can understand that and the end of the post-boot Legion putting you off DC (although I was pretty supremely disappointed with DnA's run on the team by that point that I was super-excited about a change... how was I to know we'd get something far worse?!? the Threeboot ) but what was so bad about Superman #200? I've got up to around issue #120 of that series but was thinking of adding to my collection via back-issues. I need to know whether I should keep going past #200?

I agree it's a landmark in the direction things went, but not the start of it. I doubt even GD was the actual first sign, but it was the first serious outbreak.

And remember, DiDio killed the Superboy book with the horrible last ten issues or so he co-wrote!


Oh, the series was bad before #200 - the whole Steve Seagle run with the Cir-El fiasco was pretty ungood, and itself followed on from a run by Joseph Loeb III, nuff said - and #200 itself was actively incoherent, but that's not why I landmarked it that way.

The reason I highlighted it is because that was when they rebooted Superman to use the hitherto-presented-as-out-of-continuity Mark Waid "Birthright" origin, starting the cycle of reboots that soon engulfed the Legion, followed by Infantile Crisis (which included another Superman origin rewrite!), and so forth.

^ Oh yeah. Superman has suffered from way too many pointless origin retcons in recent years. If DC isn't careful he could end up like Hawkman... or the Legion.

I wasn't reading Superman at the timeBirthright came out but someone gave me the TPB of that book as a Birthday present. I wasn't impressed with it. So many people seem to rave about it but it was a very dull, meandering Superman story IMO and didn't add anything worth losing the Byrne origin for.

My Superman, Adventures, Man of Steel collection runs to shortly before the electric-Superman era. Part of me feels like leaving it as is but I'm also strangely fascinated by that era now. The question is, at what point do I stop if I do buy more? I was thinking of around Superman #150 which I think was the end of Dan Jurgens' long run on the book.

Looking at the covers of post-Crisis Superman books on eBay lately has reminded me of just how damn good those first 10 or so years were though. Top notch art teams for almost the whole period and some really creative and fun long- and short-form storytelling too. I really can't wait to get to them when I do my big DC re-read.

Thanks--I honestly wasn't trying to get a pity party going or nothing, it just struck me funny is all.

And yeah, the attitude I try to go with is focus on the positive or interesting things. Sure, DC's made dumb moves and are in the midst of cancelling books I like, but they also have some good stuff going too, and so does Marvel, and really all the other publishers.

Anyway, I will say this about Identity Crisis--I think it could have been a really interesting superhero crime story...if it wasn't set in the DC Universe. I think it would have worked a lot better if they went the Watchmen route and wrote analogues of the Justice League--that way they could make each character their own, unique things without messing up continuity, AND they probably could have gotten away with a lot more messed up stuff.

Jay, I've also enjoyed what I've read of the New 52, for the most part. Much of the art has been great. I'm trimming down the DC titles I buy because of the Orson Scott Card decision, not because I'm disappointed with the new 52. I'll be dropping Action, Superman, Justice League and any other title that features Superman for at least a year. I also won't be adding any new DC universe titles for that period. I won't be dropping the remaining DC books on my pull. So currently, I buy:

LSH
Earth 2 (Unless a Superman legacy character shows up)
Animal Man
Swamp Thing
Justice League Dark
Batwoman
Wonder Woman.

I'm enjoying them all.

I'm still getting Red Hood (despite the tiresome Joker story), Stormwatch, Demon Knights and LSH. (I'll probably never drop LSH, even if I just get it to complain about it.) Wonder Woman is also quite interesting, but I've switched to trade for that one.

The Joker story caused me to drop all the Bat books, and the recent events of Batman Inc #8 haven't encouraged me to get back into them. It's like, not again... yawn. And Damian looked like he was 6 years old, which annoyed me; in this day and age, a 6-year old Robin just seems like child abuse. Even if he was an infernally annoying little brat.

There are some pockets of good DC series--Wonder Woman and All Star Western are my personal favorites--but I feel any discussion of DC must view the line as a whole. In other words, 5-6 good series, and 2-3 "pretty good" ones simply don't excuse 45 bad ones. If they are putting out 52 series, I expect at a minimum that 70% of them be above par. That means at least 35 of them. Otherwise stop producing the mass quantity of marketing driven, poorly executed shit that DC has become known for.

I also find it alarming that the level of violence has become so extreme. Not even the "grim and gritty" 90's, which now appear as charming as the post-Wertham 50's when compared to now, never had so many hacked limbs, ripped faces, murdered bystanders and rape victims as today's DC comics. What makes this trend all the more tragic is the lack of any sort of moving, powerful theme that accompanies these stories (unlike say, TV's Sons of Anarcy or the Shield) or true satire (like the 1950's EC Comics). It's simply violence to excite an adolescent minded fanbase or to appear edgy. The Batman titles, particularly the main four, read like they are part of the Saw franchise. All of the villains want to tortire and maim, and the crimes are designed to disgust and horrify. Sure, Batman has fought Zzasz and the Joker in times past, but does every issue have to feature a crime in which someone is violated beyond imagine?

Overall, the other major complaint is the inability for DC to tell a real story anymore. Few comics can stand on their own (again, not 100% accurate for the whole line but or the majority). Few comics have more to say other than some splash page / one-liner moments that are more akin to a sound bite than an actual story. And with 52 new actual beginnings, few series delivered on the promise of a middle or ending for short term adventures or long term themes.

Even series that have made a clear effort, like Animal Man and Swamp Thing, fall far short. Neither series has been good enough to be called "very good"; despite some tip-toeing into strong character moments, both series seem to be ripped back continually into a larger narrative that the creators have lost total control of. And these are two of the better DC series! One look at Hawkman, Firestorm of any of about 40 other series will dishearten any fan who previously felt a connection to the entirety of the DC universe.

I've been disillusioned and disappointed by DC for a long time. Nowadays I just don't care. I won't bothered to read the spoilers for Batman Inc or the latest Legion. If I read the issue and find myself feeling that now familiar feeling of disgust meets boredom, I'll simply drop that series like a bag of hammers. We're in an era where the sheer quantity of quality comics by Image, Dark Horse, Dynamite--and yes, Marvel too much more than DC--is immense. I won't waste any more time (let alone money) when there are 50 better series to occupy my attention.

I just dropped it but, I might have a look at the trades when they come out ... interesting story and set up ... but a lot of standing around and chatting ... for 20 pages!

and Orion's new look was just boring. Black pants, red motorcycle jacket, and boots? and a fancy motorcycle helmet.

I expected more!

WORD!