Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes 5YL - the first year. Some thoughts...

Continuing my read-through of the Legion from the beginning, after finishing the Baxter run a month or so ago, I recently finished reading through the first 12 issues (plus Annual 1) of the 5YL v4 series. For a point of reference, when I last read these issues, it was after I had jumped into the Reboot in 1994 and went back to understand what had come before - knowing full well that it was a completely different universe. How I felt reading this this then, when I had no idea what was going on, versus now, after reading most of what had come before, is enough that I had to say something.

Picking up these as back issues as a relatively new reader was very confusing to me with the reboot team as my primary reference. I had little idea what was going on or who anyone was. Further compounding things, I would pick up various issues from the prior runs with little guidance, so I found a lot of cool stuff (the GDS, primarily, to which I purchased the TPB). The stories were interesting and impactful, but understanding the continuity was difficult and even reading these issues as little as 20 years ago, the stories didn't have the impact they probably should have. Indeed, as I was finishing the Baxter run, I was kind of dreading this final stage of the re-read. Giffen's later art style wasn't my favorite, and I had memories of confusion and dissatisfaction.

Now fast forward to 2022, and I pick up the book after having finished the Magic Wars storyline a few weeks before. I have to say I was pretty engrossed, and found it hard to put down. The timeline had been advanced, a lot of bad stuff had happened in the intervening years, so the doling out of breadcrumbs of information from that time was part of the pull for me. Roxxas as a Jokeresque villain was at first a bit over the top for me, but then something turned for me and by the time he was captured, I was all in for the story. The little character moments at the beginning, Rokk, Garth & Imra, Vi, Cham coming together to finally see "The Legion of Super Heroes" in issue 12 made me feel happy - something I hadn't expected to feel while reading this book. (I know, I know, "just you wait....")

The storytelling feel was also more mature; something that I appreciate much more as a man in my 50s versus someone half that age. Seeing the characters older and having gone through some stuff meant something more now, perhaps due to where we are in the world today. I also enjoyed the "extra" prose pages usually reserved for providing background details of the 5YL universe or filling in the gaps about what had happened in those five years.

And the Tenzil issue. How great was that? I found myself laughing out loud several times while reading that. Very much reminded me of the Ambush Bug Nothing Special. Good comic relief at the right time. If you're gonna have a filler issue, this is the kind of filler issue I love to read!

It wasn't all great, of course. While I was familiar with the problems of Superboy's history, given the "Greatest Hero of them All" story from the prior run, I didn't truly understand how deeply the new editorial mandate to remove any reference to Superman-property characters caused so many issues with continuity at the very start of the series. Almost half of the first dozen issues were dealing with retelling stories in a veritable retcon-a-thon, especially in the annual. The fun thing for me this read was that I actually understood all the references to older stories that had to be altered due to Superboy and Supergirl's removal. But one can only reread the Legion's origin so many times. That said, the Mordruverse story was an interesting way to perform a soft continuity reset.

One other thing that I gained a better appreciation for was the relationship between Tinya and Jo. I have said many times about how they are not a fave couple of mine, primarily due to their portrayal across the ten years of the reboot. Even during most of the read through the Silver and Bronze ages, and into the Levitz run, I wasn't thrilled with the whole thing. Tinya's attitude towards Imra when grieving, Jo having flings with the pirate captain, albeit while suffering amnesia, and Ayla when Tinya and Brin were away all fed into that attitude on my part. But the Bierbaums' annual story did a much better job of making their relationship more sympathetic for me personally. They're still probably no higher than #3 in the all time relationships for me though.

So ultimately, even though I still kind of view the 5YL Legion as an elseworlds story (even though its really the retro/New 52 world that is the true elseworld), I very much enjoyed this batch of issues. Even though the universe had been put through the wringer, watching the Legion reform was joyful and a good read; much moreso than I expected.

The cover of #1, where Rokk is in the rubble but a gleaming Legion ring lies in front of him, pretty much sums up Giffen's plan for it and your reaction was just what he was after.

As I've said before, I don't really understand people who claim to love the Baxter series, but then complain that the 5YL is too "dark and gritty" or some such. Baxter is the story of the team falling apart, while 5YL is the story of the team coming back together. For me, Baxter is far more depressing to read.

I have a lot of mixed feelings about the 5YL run as a whole. There's a lot of drawing on/celebrating obscure bits of Legion history that I absolutely love. But there's also a lot of re-writing/re-interpreting Legion history which, for the most part, hasn't aged well at all.

And, for the record, the Adult Legion is the true continuation of the Silver Age Legion, Everything else is an Elseworlds story.

Not certain I would say the same about the Baxter era but totally agree about 5YL.

ooh 5YL is totally my jam!!

I immediately loved it and it made me go out and get the RPG sourcebooks (which was one of the hardest things to give up when me and my ex parted lol) and Who's Who books and back issues so that I could really devour all the deep cut references....up until that point I had been a pretty casual fan and recognised Vi and Cham and Brainy easy enough, but 5YL was what really made me love the Legion's universe!

I think it probably came along at just the right time in my comic reading journey as well, as I was still very into superheroes but looking for something more mature than one issue punch-ups and while the tone of 5YL was much less four colour comic book than I was used to it also wasn't just edgy and grim for the sake of it generally speaking...and I know this is an unpopular opinion, but it's my favourite art period for Giffen too - I fell in love with the 9 panel grids and highly stylised art that you have to work at interpreting sometimes - I don't think I would like it for a more conventional superhero book at all, but along with the way it was written it made me feel like I was reading something more Vertigo than DC

That Mordruverse issue so early on in the piece was a big gamble considering how divorced the series was already from what had come before, but I loved how important it felt....I really liked that it was a book that involved having to read text pages, and sometimes not really understanding who this or that person was or what the relevance of this cameo was until months down the track, I had to work for it but then I felt like I was rewarded for doing that.

I think it probably informs the way I write my Legion fic even....like the world and the characters aren't the same but 5YL really got me thinking about how it's not just the main team that can carry a story, and sometimes you can pull a character in that appeared in like one story in the 60s sometime and get something really valuable out of using them. I mean did anyone ever think Glorith of all people was gonna make a comeback the way she did?

Also - DEFINITELY the best Tenzil!!!!

I have to disagree on this one. Considering the results of the poll I did last year I expect to be in the minority on this.
(I don't know how to link to it, it was the "What's your opinion on the 5YL era?" thread)

There are of course good things in the 5YL... it has the best version of Tenzil for probably most of the Legion fans (myself included), the worldbuilding is great, and I do honestly appreciate what they were going for... but I still can't get into it.

It's not that it's dark, I don't mind when it has a purpose... but there is a limit and for my tastes 5YL went too far on that.
The Baxter era could get dark, yes, but sometimes 5YL seems to go dark for darkness sake. If Karate Kid had died during the 5YL period he wouldn't have had a tragic but still heroic death, he would've died horribly because he completely failed to save the day and we would've been shown repeatedly that trying to fight supervillains when you have no powers is inherently silly.
It's a good period if you like some Legionnaires (Cosmic Boy, Cham...) but it's dreadful and mean-spirited towards others: just try to tell me with a straight face this was a good period for people like Wildfire, Sun Boy, or to a lesser extent Timber Wolf.

I couldn't get into any of the new characters, I found the Mordruverse and Glorithverse stuff a slog to get through, most of the retcons are just completely unnecessary, and that sprocking 9 grid paneling is just ugly to look at. At least for me.

Overall, I completely get what they were going for, but I honestly think they didn't deliver.
In the thread I referenced above Set called this era unpleasent and with an underlying tone of "I'm done with this sand castle, and now I'm gonna smash it apart", and I agree.

Most of this stuff boils down to personal taste, and if you get enjoyment from the 5YL era more power to you, but my reaction has been the opposite of yours: every time I try to re-read this period I just don't get it.

Wow, thanks for all the thoughtful comments!! Just as a general statement, this writeup is really specifically for the first 12 issues + annual. I know there are things later in this run that I don't like for sure (destruction of Earth, Legion on the Run, etc), but I'll see how I feel when I get to them, as I certainly didn't expect to enjoy these first 12 issues as much as I did.


I completely agree with this, especially the back half of the Baxter run.



ooof, that hurts about the sourcebooks!


I actually was OK with the 9 panel format, as typically you can tell more story if its done right and/or creatively. I was a big Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen fan, so it was no problem for me. Some of the Giffen art here works for me and some does not, so its a bit hit and miss.


In reading Tom's blog, the issue wasn't initially planned, but they needed a way to do a soft reset due to the Superman folks. On one hand, really creative, on the other - come on DC! In retrospect, its the beginning of editorial messing with the book to create lasting damage.

I think it probably informs the way I write my Legion fic even....like the world and the characters aren't the same but 5YL really got me thinking about how it's not just the main team that can carry a story, and sometimes you can pull a character in that appeared in like one story in the 60s sometime and get something really valuable out of using them. I mean did anyone ever think Glorith of all people was gonna make a comeback the way she did?

Also - DEFINITELY the best Tenzil!!!![/quote]



Yes! I happened to find it yesterday while looking for something else. I actually considered posting the message there, but I did vote on the poll (not that it made any difference to the result! )


It's funny- sub out some of those characters in what you wrote up there and I feel exactly the same way about the DnA era of the reboot! But I gained a better appreciation of them when I did my R/R last year. Maybe I'm just mellowing in my old age! But yeah, I totally get what you're saying - it will be interesting to see if the feeling I have towards the first dozen issues extends further into the run up to Zero Hour.

Also, I just realized, I'm going to have to read the Legionnaires stories as part of this!


I can see that; it definitely has its own quirky voice that Tom and Mary provide. I'll be paying attention to the different shifts in the book - to the point when Giffen stops drawing so they have fewer filler issues, to when he leaves altogether, to when the Bierbaums leave. I guess in some ways I'm grateful that I'm liking this more than before since I have another 50+ issues to go!

I was just thinking about how fans often mention Watchmen when talking about 5YL. The 9 panel grid is obviously inspired by it and perhaps a lot of the rest of the tone as well.

Yet I didn't really enjoy Watchmen. I can see why some people do and can appreciate the depth in it but frankly I found it depressing. Contrariwise I found 5YL to be scary and challenging but ultimately uplifting. Horrible things happened to our favourite characters but through it they mostly came out swinging. That old tale about a light shining brightest in a darkened room. Admittedly as mentioned above some characters were treated worse than others, particularly Dirk.

Nevertheless there were so many scenes that showed what could still be done in the worst situations and made me feel like yes, that's the Legion!

I'm on the exact opposite spectrum... your opinion on Watchmen is mine on 5YL. The fact that Watchmen was doing its own thing while 5YL was supposed to be the same universe we saw before might have something to do with it.

To me 5YL is like as if Watchmen ended with Night Owl and SIlk Spectre re-creating the Minuteman in the last chapter... put all the nice sentiment you want, for me it doesn't offset what came before it.

Personal taste and all, plus the Legion is big enough for multiple interpretations so we can all enjoy at least one version :-)

I want to say that I went in reverse order, so I had DKR in hand well before I read Watchmen, and I may not have read Watchmen until after I read any 5YL originally. So I guess I came to the 9-panel via Frank Miller's work.

I also had a thought - in some ways, given the Bierbaum's route to the writers chair here, the 5YL story is the ultimate fan fic. They brought a lot of the ideas that they and others had been kicking around in fandom and were given the opportunity to make it real, so to speak.

AMEN!

Absolutely.

This part of the Legion contains a number of what I think are the best moments in any Legion volume.
As mentioned it's a story of building hope and inspiration from the darkness of a post collapse galaxy,

The back end of Baxter was darker, and the 5YG means that we don;t have to see it completely fall apart.
Of course, it's fair to say Mr Giffen had a hand in just how dark it got at the end of the Baxter run.

v4 had loads of potential, but was torpedoed as early as issue 3 or 4.
As Giffen briefly quit/got involved in other things, there were the multiple fill in issues within that first year.
All of which detracted from the story we should have been getting.

Later parts of the volume still had some superb moments, but it was a downward slope from what was lost at the start.

Boy, you were not kidding! I just finished year two, and its such a contrast in quality. There are a few nice nuggets here in year two, but I didn't really care for the Khund war issues, to be honest, nor the weird Dark Circle cult story.

Of course, the SW6 mystery was teased interestingly - I wonder when folks at the time thought when they were reading this and got to the last page of 24? I knew what was coming, but still thought it was well presented - with the exception of the weird way that Vi is escorting Devlin with her new hairstyle, then all of a sudden is in a 60's do.

The Venado Bay flashback was interesting in a tragic way, with the tidbit that Rokk is responsible for Vi's eye.

I found that I rather enjoyed the Quiet Darkness storyline, as some of the other, newer Legionnaires had a more prominent role. It may have been that the story was told with a different writer that made it fresher for me, I don't know. But I enjoyed the read of a Darkseid, seemingly, kind of done with this plane of existence and looking for companionship in another. U

I wasn't really OK with the moon's destruction, as for one thing, I knew where it was ultimately going to lead, and I don't like Earth-as-punching-bag storylines. But the aspect of Superman's fight with Dev-Em from Time and Time Again being the catalyst just made me mad. It made me mad that Superman is the cause of this story thread. It also made me mad that after all that BS at the beginning of the book of "The Legion needs to not reference Superman", the Superman crew basically violates that and does it anyway. Then I start reading Bierbaum's blog, and he basically states that it was the LEGION team that ran crazy with that "no Superman" dictate and took it upon themselves to do the whole Glorithverse and Mordruverse retcon fest. That whole thing just kind of pissed me off given all the crap Legion fans have had to deal with as a result for the last 30 years, and the fact that it was mostly self inflicted makes it even worse.

Salt in the wound - the Jo lost in time storyline. Just why? It had no point and was almost as bad as reboot Tinya/Jo.

This book started with promise, but most of the second year wasn't that great to me. I feel like the creators overstretched themselves in a lot of ways and things got way out of control for them. Here's hoping the next 12, with the younger Legionnaires, does better.

Much like you I wasn't a big fan of the Khund War issues.

It seemed like a jump in approach/ pacign form what had gone before. It also had an art change and was probably surrounded by more Guiffen quitting episodes. I wasn't a big fan of the Dark Circle story art there either. The story itself had some good moments, with the chilling recruitment poster for the Circle bieng all too attractive for many (and in the face of what the UP had gone through, you could see why). It was aslo a stpping stone in the next Big Reveal of the series.

I didn't mind the Quiet Darkness either. Having since read all of the Kirby material (which I wouldn't have done then) it's actually very inkeeping with Darkseid's arc.

The Superman thing was a pain. I didn't read a lot of the connecting parts to it. At least there was a story reason for not publicing Supes. But having there be a Supes/ Leigon crossover after what happened at the start of v4 was was a pain. My memory cell tells me that it was a Superoffice Edict to remove all mentions, including retroactive ones, of Supes. That included the Els and so forth. So they created it from the Gands instead, using the Mordruverse as a vehicle to do that. Waid left the book as editor at around the time, and there's probably a connection to the arguments and the edict.

To my memory TMK did a great job under the circumstances. It also allowed them to cement in The Big Reveal of the real purpose of the the Legion.

I'll be interested to hear what you thought of the next 12 GL.

I'm trying to find the right track of posts on Tom's blog, but the way that it is discussed for his annotations for issue 19 seems to indicate that they needed to just not mention Superman mythos in the book - no one specifically tasked them to retcon everything, it was just something they took upon themselves. So I think they could have moved forward without mentioning Superman, Supergirl, etc, with the only real anomaly being Mon-El. I'm going to re-read his entries to see if I understand it right.

He would have done an interview in the legion companion as well, that might have shed light on it.

So the third year of 5YL.... What's a good analogy for how I'm feeling...

I'd say that my 5YL journey here is one of Driving down a nicely paved highway with a specific direction that you can see off in the distance. A couple potholes in the road, but a good drive. Then the road starts turning into disrepair, and the drive is a lot bumpier. Finally, the road has somehow turned into a dirt track that is very difficult to navigate and when you look out in the distance, you're not going where you thought were you were headed, but when you turn around, where you came from looks totally unfamiliar.

Between the overly populated Terra Mosaic and the nearly nonstop retcon-fest, the third year probably more than any stretch so far, illustrates the negative everyone remembers from this time. The introduction of the SW6 Legionnaires was actually a welcome addition, as the story seemed to pop every time they came onto the page; I wanted to know a lot more of what was going on there. The payoff at the very end - the tragedy of Dirk Morgna - did ultimately pay off for me dramatically, but I felt like it took forever to get there. Similarly, and probably not coincidentally, I felt the same about the Dominator siege of Earth. The resolution was mostly fulfilling, but I think it should have happened faster. But so much didn't pay off for me:

Garth/Proty, Shvaugh/Sean being the most egregious examples, but also Kid Quantum. Mainly because of the fact that they came out of nowhere. In fact, they didn't come out of nowhere but rather were decades old fanfic ideas. The "reveal" of Bounty fell kind of flat to me.

I actually enjoyed most of the Annual story of the team chilling in Winath (minus Proty, of course). The whole thing with Gim & Luornu was.... odd... I mean, ok, everyone's an adult, but why put that in there?

So overall, I found this stretch of story MUCH harder to read, especially the "extra" story items at the end. There was soooo many tiny references to Legion minutiae that I felt almost overwhelmed by it - I love continuity, but I felt like this series here has so much in it that I just want it to get out of the way and let the story happen. It got in the way of my enjoyment of the stories.

That is one of the best analogies I've ever read. Kudos.

Thanks! It came to me as I realized what a chore reading this third year of stories had become. I wish it were not!

I've been generally commenting on this run every 12 issues plus the annual.

But I just read issue 38 - " The End".

It's probably the worst Legion story I've ever read. The Legion was barely in it, and it violated the show don't tell rule.

And I am struggling to understand the WHY. Seems like a dumb move just to make things worse when they were already pretty bad.

Re The End.

What I disliked about it, was how jarring it was. FINALLY, Earth is liberated and the Dominion kicked out. and suddenly, with very little foreshadowing, Earth blows up. What?!

I actually liked the poignancy of the story itself, and the narration by Devlin coupled with the one-panel per page. But indeed, "the Legion was barely in it". and it just seemed to come completely out of nowhere...

Yeah, it was well done for what it was, but it was an absolute curveball.

Based on reading the Bierbaum retrospectives, I think that this was Giffen's last issue and he was looking to do the last thing that he wanted to do in his "master plan".

And obviously this is just my personal opinion, but after this effort reading through the Legion library, my current feeling is that Giffen should be kept far, far away from the Legion forevermore, especially with where he wanted to take things with the old "Hat Trick" in this run.

It certainly could have worked with appropriate build-up and slightly better execution, IMO. ah well...

Agree - I was flipping through this and was asking myself "why didn't they write the stories here?" I don't think I would have minded if they told the stories in issues of the events that were involved with the Legion and it culminated in this, but I'm not a fan of how this was done.