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Re: Re-reading the Threeboot
Gaseous Lad #1015101 05/17/22 12:57 AM
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thanks for refreshing my memory smile

Re: Re-reading the Threeboot
Invisible Brainiac #1015112 05/17/22 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Invisible Brainiac
The hand-to-hand combat thing does tend to become less impressive, when most everyone can do it smile Even some Legionnaires who do have offensive / long-range powers, like Saturn Girl.

While I love me some badass Shady and Dreamy and Vi, it was getting a little squiffy how so many Legion ladies suddenly were world-class martial artists, all of a sudden, when so many of the male Legionnaires like Sun Boy and Element Lad and even brawler types like Ultra Boy and Mon-El, didn't seem to feel the need to skill up their fighting ability.

Even Projectra, snapping Nemesis Kid's neck like a boss, was suggested to have some skill, at the end there, after many years of being miss-faints-in-combat.

It felt like the ladies were being held to a higher standard of 'usefulness' at times, in that various dudes, like Invisible Kid or Brainiac 5 could be more-or-less useless in a fight, but the gals, if they lacked a strong offensive power (like Lightning Lass), has to also be top tier martial arts masters, in addition to the power to shrink or see the future or create darkfields. Even the more physical fighters, Timber Wolf, Colossal Boy and Ultra Boy among them, seemed to get by mostly on power, and didn't really have break out the effort to earn black belts, with only Karate Kid, who had 'martial arts' as his *super-power*, seemed to have anything like the sort of training or skill that the ladies picked up during the 80s. (Although things were different in the Reboot, with Triad and her trijutsu being one of the 'suddenly, mistress of martial arts!' types, and Umbra having a more offensive darkforce-style power.)

And on that last note, I recall that in the early Threeboot, there's a fight between groups of Legionnaires during the Cosmic Boy / Brainiac 5 leadership schism, and Shadow Lass throws a blast of darkness at someone, perhaps Sun Boy?, who is doubled over as if her darkness had some sort of actual physical impact! (Like Reboot Umbra, instead of Levitz-era Shady.)

And... it never happens again? Was it an artist's error, or was there actually a plan to have her with darkforce powers like Umbra, instead of just 'Lights Out Lass' like the classic continuity?


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Re: Re-reading the Threeboot
Set #1015121 05/17/22 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Set
It felt like the ladies were being held to a higher standard of 'usefulness' at times, in that various dudes, like Invisible Kid or Brainiac 5 could be more-or-less useless in a fight, but the gals, if they lacked a strong offensive power (like Lightning Lass), has to also be top tier martial arts masters, in addition to the power to shrink or see the future or create darkfields. Even the more physical fighters, Timber Wolf, Colossal Boy and Ultra Boy among them, seemed to get by mostly on power, and didn't really have break out the effort to earn black belts, with only Karate Kid, who had 'martial arts' as his *super-power*, seemed to have anything like the sort of training or skill that the ladies picked up during the 80s. (Although things were different in the Reboot, with Triad and her trijutsu being one of the 'suddenly, mistress of martial arts!' types, and Umbra having a more offensive darkforce-style power.)

Yeah, its almost like overcompensation in some ways - "look how powerful our women are"

Originally Posted by Set
And on that last note, I recall that in the early Threeboot, there's a fight between groups of Legionnaires during the Cosmic Boy / Brainiac 5 leadership schism, and Shadow Lass throws a blast of darkness at someone, perhaps Sun Boy?, who is doubled over as if her darkness had some sort of actual physical impact! (Like Reboot Umbra, instead of Levitz-era Shady.)

And... it never happens again? Was it an artist's error, or was there actually a plan to have her with darkforce powers like Umbra, instead of just 'Lights Out Lass' like the classic continuity?

Yep, that's coming very soon, so we'll get to that detail in the next issue or two, whenever I get a chance to write these (the first six I already had ready to go)


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Re: Re-reading the Threeboot
Set #1015125 05/17/22 12:48 PM
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[snip]

Originally Posted by Set
Even Projectra, snapping Nemesis Kid's neck like a boss, was suggested to have some skill, at the end there, after many years of being miss-faints-in-combat.

I always thought she was riding an adrenaline rush and drew extra strength from that. She'd finally found the person she hated most in the universe, and there was no way he was going to get away from her. Of course, she also freaked NK out with that level of rage, which helped her, too.


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The Legion of Super Heroes v5 #7
Gaseous Lad #1015127 05/17/22 01:39 PM
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The Legion of Super Heroes v5 #7

Released June 22, 2005
DC Comics, Color
22 Pages

Cover Title - "Follow the Leader!"

Mark Waid - Writer
Barry Kitson - Penciller
Arth Thibert & James Pascoe - Inks
Chris Blythe - Colors
Stephen Wacker - Editor

Synopsis

Brainy and Lyle are working in the lab when a message about Colu being the next Terra Firma target appears. In the prior issue when Brainy met Lemnos, he subconsciously sent a message to himself. He, Light Lass, Cham and Saturn Girl head to Colu.

Back at HQ, Cos argues with UP reps - the Coluans have been tasked to bargain with Terra Firma except, as Cos points out, they can't be bargained with. Triplicate Girl and Sun Boy discuss his thinking of leaving the Legion.

The away team arrives at a very sterile looking Colu, but it turns out that everything is miniaturized! They arrive at a control facility but only find virus-wiped Coluans who are conscious but have no memories. Ayla rips her way into Brainy's mother's lab, which is in a state of disarray. His mother is singing a lullaby as its the only think she can remember. Imra prods Brainy if he can reverse the affects, and he aggressively states he has to to save Colu. The ceiling collapses in streams of zombified Coluans pour into the lab. The Legion leaves to regroup alone, but Brainy loses hope.

Suddenly Cham's antennae sense life with no one around. Ayla reverses gravity on everything around them, pulling up sheets of material, while Cham changes into a beast and holds Imra and Brainy. They are able to suss out Lemnos from the chaos. They spar words for a bit, Brainy vowing revenge and Lemnos stating that their problems are closer to home. Lemnos breaks Brainy's shoulder and has Terra Firma port him offworld.

Meanwhile at HQ, Phantom Girl breaks into Brainy's lab for Cos, Garth, Lyle and Luornu.


Commentary

This is the issue of the threeboot that kicked things into gear and made me want to keep reading the next several issues. It's an incredibly well done Legion story. First, it keeps the group small; we're only dealing with four Legionnaires on the main story, and just a few more to breadcrumb a couple other b-plots across issues, so it's easy to keep track of who's doing what. Then, the main story beats are interspersed with cool interpersonal character bits that are written (and drawn) well to keep the action flowing to the next beat while revealing interesting character information without beating it over the reader's head too much. The stakes are pretty high here - Coluan society getting mind wiped is as close to genocide of a data-driven culture as you can get, and the Legion, especially Light Lass, really delivers with the way they reveal the antagonist. This, contrasted with Cos undermining Brainy (who is undermining Cos) was fascinating to me, and I kept wanting to read what happened next.

It's almost cliche at this point, but the art is amazing.

This Legion has a weird way of both bickering and carousing at the same time. Ayla and Brainy have an interesting argument, and Cham and Imra have a fun time with Cham mimicking other Legionnaires. Similarly the Cham/Ayla interaction was fun ("So is this gesture...") as his scanning of the konapple revealed Cham's powers for this iteration but also set up an important plot point.

While the interplay of Cos talking with the UP numbskulls was done well, if somewhat tropish (the thick headed adults in charge not listenting to the kids who know better), the following scene with Dirk and Lu was really well done. It ties in elements from issue 3, and Dirk calling out Luornu on her spying for Cos - and that everyone knows it.

Interesting that Cham can sense life. But Colu is presented as extremely sterile. I wonder if the Imskians had any input into the miniaturization tech; that seems like an interesting direction to mine.

Dear G0d is the swear word on Colu. Cute.

The wrinkle of Briany being dismissive of Ayla because of her flightiness in relation to her powers is something I'm on the fence about. On one hand its great character trait revelation for both Ayla and Brainy. On the other hand, its also showing Brainy's arrogance (Ok, well he IS a Brainy) but also Ayla's seeming flightiness regarding her powers. Ayla's reaction ("That is the worst compliment I've ever heard") is great, though, and I feel like she really proves him wrong in the end.

Brainy's mom - interesting take given how she was used in the reboot. So I assume the Brainiac title is only given to the men? And what happens to all these lobotomized Coluans?

Ayla's reveal of Lemnos was brilliant - well told with the mechanics across the book as well as how those pages were drawn to show the actions. A standout moment.

Grade: A. Extremely solid outing here that not only sets up what's to come even further, it made me want to jump to the next issue right away.

Last edited by Gaseous Lad; 05/17/22 01:54 PM.

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Re: The Legion of Super Heroes v5 #7
Gaseous Lad #1015128 05/17/22 01:45 PM
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Interesting. Issue #7 was the first Threeboot issue I bought. I liked it enough to stay with the series until shortly after Shooter's arrival, so about three years. Now that I'm starting to remember, I would tell myself every month, "Okay, this issue's not great, but maybe the NEXT one will be as good as #7." smile

I actually don't remember much about #7 itself, but after reading GL's review I want to read it again. Hopefully my library system still has a copy of the second Threeboot trade. We shall see.


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Re: The Legion of Super Heroes v5 #7
Gaseous Lad #1015146 05/18/22 02:29 AM
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This was definitely a highlight of the Threeboot. Light Lass causing massive destruction, and Cham's involuntary detection of Lemnos were both amazing. great plot, a whodunit in a way, great character moments (and Cham defending Ayla in front of Brainy made me like him a lot). also loved the banter (can we kill him? no alibi...).

Re: The Legion of Super Heroes v5 #7
Invisible Brainiac #1015152 05/18/22 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Ann Hebistand
Interesting. Issue #7 was the first Threeboot issue I bought. I liked it enough to stay with the series until shortly after Shooter's arrival, so about three years. Now that I'm starting to remember, I would tell myself every month, "Okay, this issue's not great, but maybe the NEXT one will be as good as #7." smile

I actually don't remember much about #7 itself, but after reading GL's review I want to read it again. Hopefully my library system still has a copy of the second Threeboot trade. We shall see.


I remember starting to tune out around issue 15 or so, around when Supergirl arrived, so this batch we're just starting (7-13 or 14 I think) constitute the second collection, and I found these impossible to stop reading. But I'm not sure what soured me after - very likely I was just busy with life at the time.

Originally Posted by Invisible Brainiac
This was definitely a highlight of the Threeboot. Light Lass causing massive destruction, and Cham's involuntary detection of Lemnos were both amazing. great plot, a whodunit in a way, great character moments (and Cham defending Ayla in front of Brainy made me like him a lot). also loved the banter (can we kill him? no alibi...).

Yes, as I deconstructed the issue as part of the review, I was amazed at how well Waid mapped it out. It was really well done.


Interested in the Post-Zero Hour Reboot Legion? Check out:

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Fan Fiction: The Legion of Super-Heroes v4.1 (continuing the reboot from issue 126!) on LW or here (external)

Re: The Legion of Super Heroes v5 #7
cleome57 #1015155 05/18/22 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by cleome55
[snip]

Originally Posted by Set
Even Projectra, snapping Nemesis Kid's neck like a boss, was suggested to have some skill, at the end there, after many years of being miss-faints-in-combat.

I always thought she was riding an adrenaline rush and drew extra strength from that. She'd finally found the person she hated most in the universe, and there was no way he was going to get away from her. Of course, she also freaked NK out with that level of rage, which helped her, too.

Yeah, I feel like Jeckie wasn't using fighting skill so much as just being enraged and going for the jugular - also, with the Sensor Girl scene where she hurts Brainy's hand and the MUCH later reveal by either Geoff Johns or Brad Meltzer that Orandans have two hearts, I am led to believe that they're probably stronger than they look anyway

Re: The Legion of Super Heroes v5 #7
Gaseous Lad #1015156 05/18/22 07:33 AM
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Also, forgot to say #7 is probably the Threeboot issue that I like most - Light Lass lives up to her potential for once, and the trick with Cham's antennae picking up on Lemnos was really clever!

Last edited by razsolo; 05/18/22 07:33 AM.
Re: The Legion of Super Heroes v5 #7
Gaseous Lad #1015167 05/18/22 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Gaseous Lad
Originally Posted by Set
It felt like the ladies were being held to a higher standard of 'usefulness' at times, in that various dudes, like Invisible Kid or Brainiac 5 could be more-or-less useless in a fight, but the gals, if they lacked a strong offensive power (like Lightning Lass), has to also be top tier martial arts masters, in addition to the power to shrink or see the future or create darkfields. Even the more physical fighters, Timber Wolf, Colossal Boy and Ultra Boy among them, seemed to get by mostly on power, and didn't really have break out the effort to earn black belts, with only Karate Kid, who had 'martial arts' as his *super-power*, seemed to have anything like the sort of training or skill that the ladies picked up during the 80s. (Although things were different in the Reboot, with Triad and her trijutsu being one of the 'suddenly, mistress of martial arts!' types, and Umbra having a more offensive darkforce-style power.)

Yeah, its almost like overcompensation in some ways - "look how powerful our women are"

[)

this is a good point. Even in the Reboot, Lyle had a bit of hand-to-hand skill, but only about equal to Imra and perhaps Tinya (arguable though, Tinya had her moments against Kono) - and certainly less than Vi, Lu, and even Tasmia (though Tasmia's hand-to-hand was more highlighted under DNA and in her Legends of the Legion debut issue!) the only males besides Val to show hand-to-hand skill were... I think Brin, but much of that was arguably his powerset. Not even Jo (again, arguably except in his Legends of the Legion debut issue) showed hand-to-hand skill

And Gim, despite also being a Science Police officer, didn't display any fighting skills that I can think of - unlike fellow Sci-Cop Imra, who also had offensive uses for her telepathy!

Interestingly, Tasmia started out with decent hand-to-hand and pure "make things dark" powers. It was in her origin issue when her fighting skilsl were first displayed, and under DNA BOTH her fighting skills were continuously displayed, and her offensive darkforce power developed!

Also under DNA, Sensor became a heavy hitter (destroying Robotican drones with her body).

On the flip side, you have Gates with a fairly passive power (except for the sharp edges of his disks, again displayed under DNA) and no combat skills shown (not that he needed them). And then Brainy, but then beginning with the Anomaly his forcefield became an extension of himself, and also became a big blunt weapon.

The Legion of Super Heroes v5 #8
Gaseous Lad #1015187 05/19/22 01:57 PM
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The Legion of Super Heroes v5 #8

Released July 27, 2005
DC Comics, Color
29 Pages

Cover Title - Family Feud!

Mark Waid - Writer
Kevin Sharpe - Guest Penciller
Prentis Rollins - Guest Inker
Sno Cone - Colorist
Stephen Wacker - Editor

Synopsis

Element Lad and Colossal Boy bust a ring of pirates who pose as Legionnaires and sell passage to young Legion fans before spacing them and keeping the money.

At Legion HQ, Triplicate Girl, Star Boy and Light Lass deal with the ramifications of breaking into Brainys lab at the end of last issue. Cos chides Star Boy for doubting his leadership and busts through the lab force field. Cos pleads for unity in the face of approaching war and open communication.

At UP HQ, Lightning Lad, Saturn Girl and Dream Girl plead with Lon Norg (Lyle's dad) about prepping for the war with Lemnos. He doesn't believe their story about Lemnos, even though he complains about his destabilizing effects and orders them arrested. Garth throws back at Norg the fact that he can't remember how he got his promotion.

Back at Legion HQ, Ayla goes to check on Projectra who hasn't been seen in days. She's still mourning but has gained something. Element Lad informs Cos they aren't bankrupt, but Cos is suspicious. Sun Boy tries to quit to make his own way, but Cos refuses as it will make him look ineffectual and he complains about the team - broadcast by Brainiac 5 who was following Cos' orders about open communications among the team.

Cos charges at Brainy's lab but is repelled by a stronger force field. Ultra Boy attacks Cos. Colossal Boy attacks Ultra Boy. Imra makes Jo power down so Garth can fry him. Val gets mad at Imra. Gim tries to grab Val who promptly throws him through the wall of HQ. Star Boy weighs down Val, and Shadow Lass blinds Thom. The team has picked sides and they start fighting. Cos asks Brainy if this is his idea of leadership. Brainy suggests that Cos' leadership is limited, and Cos causes a magnetic surge that makes all the Legion rings stick to the wall and tells people they can stay with Brainy or follow him.

Then the final news twist - Braal has seceded from the UP and anyone offworld will be exiled.


Commentary

This was an interesting issue for me. I liked it a lot, but it didn't really kick in until Cos starts to have his freak out and everything unravels. There is a lot of truth in this issue based on how these Legionnaires have been presented across the last eight issues. Namely, these teens have very grating personalities for the most part and open conflict within the team is inevitable. The challenging part here is that there has always been some level of contention between Cos and Brainy that has escalated in the last few issues, but Brainy's attitude towards everyone else makes me think others wouldn't necessarily gravitate towards him as leader, and his sly move of turning Cos' mic on to broadcast his rant makes me not trust Brainy.

Of course, Cos does nothing in this issue to show that he's a capable leader. Indeed, he basically breaks under pressure and makes matters worse. The Legionnaires then do a lot to put their worse foot forward; Imra turning off Jo's power was cool, but obviously problematic. That said, I *really* enjoyed Garth frying his ass. But most of the rest of them are just as bad. The way it ended with the twist of Braal's secession was good; although to be honest, I was almost happy with the fact that Cos may be leaving. The other side stories are serviceable and add several things to advance the larger plot - Something is going on with Projectra, and Lyle's dad was promoted by Lemnos in the SP ranks, but he doesn't remember; the whole thing with his overreaction was a little bit tropey to me. The opening scene where Gim and Jan bust the pirates was good, but didn't add much except for the revelation that Jan's powers only work for a minute before whatever he transformed reverts back.

There is a guest artist team in this issue and they all do a good job. Not quite to Kitson standards, but solid nonetheless, although I thought some of the faces were a bit inconsistently drawn. We even get a return of Sno Cone studios here, who had done a lot of coloring on the prior series.

Cos is getting an upgrade here with the ability to disrupt force fields. And goodwill on the team, apparently.

Grade B. I'm giving it a B as the entirety of the story doesn't really start to flow until the confrontation with Sun Boy, and the opening and Projectra scenes seem kind of random.


Interested in the Post-Zero Hour Reboot Legion? Check out:

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Fan Fiction: The Legion of Super-Heroes v4.1 (continuing the reboot from issue 126!) on LW or here (external)

Re: The Legion of Super Heroes v5 #8
Gaseous Lad #1015205 05/20/22 04:56 AM
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On one hand, the conflict was indeed not unexpected as you point out GL - with all the egos on this team (and I applauded when Cos called Jo an irresponsible jerkwit, as he indeed is one). Also, Cos is under a lot of pressure, (it's not easy! I remember his blow up in the early Reboot, but a lot of that was for show...)

nobody comes across as good here, to be honest, nearly everyone did something problematic

I did remind myself: this is not the Legion you grew up with, but a different one. still, it's sad that it escalated so - underhanded tactic by Brainy, and of course you have hothead jock Jo charging into violence (to be honest, most of the rest were trying to de-escalate, obviously did not work)

Lyle deserves some blame too, for helping sneak into Brainy's lab and telling (cannot remember if that was confirmed already). though of course, the initial sneaking in was problematic too

interesting to see the factions.

Cos - Garth, Imra, Ayla, Gim, Thom, Dirk (?), Tinya (mostly the older guard + the more "follow orders" types), Lu

Brainy - Val, Tasmia, Jo (only because he disliked Cos eh). Nura, Jan (a lot of the more rebellious ones, not really for Brainy so much as anti-Cos I think)

Lyle kinda playing both sides

I forgot who Cham sided with

well, the team has been greatly torn down now...

Re: The Legion of Super Heroes v5 #8
Invisible Brainiac #1015211 05/20/22 07:40 AM
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Yeah, its an interesting choice of Waid to throw us into a Legion that is two years old and on the brink of flying apart.

It certainly adds drama and an element of deconstruction. I think I'd gel with this better if I liked these versions of the characters more - right now I only nominally like Cos' side better. I'm also a bit meh about deconstructive stories anyway.

With regards to Cham, he's not in this issue, but will be featured next where he does try to play both sides and be a bit of a peacemaker.


Interested in the Post-Zero Hour Reboot Legion? Check out:

The Reboot Legion Timeline

Fan Fiction: The Legion of Super-Heroes v4.1 (continuing the reboot from issue 126!) on LW or here (external)

Re: The Legion of Super Heroes v5 #8
Gaseous Lad #1015215 05/20/22 09:37 AM
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I think at the time, I had a backhanded liking for the new version of Ultra Boy. Not because he was a likable character, of course. But because I'd always found his original take pretty dull most of the time. Waid was correct to do what he did, in that sense that a team isn't credible by modern standards if each and every person has a nice vibe. Or the same motivations for doing what they do. In fact, most teams while I was reading superheroes the most had the token jerkbag who seemingly held on to goodness by a thread, or maybe by default or circumstance. (Wolverine, anyone?)

I didn't read after Supergirl came on board. So I always wondered if Waid meant for Jo to have a character and/or redemption arc. In which we got a better sense of where the character was coming from (both literally and figuratively) and some kind of growth beyond unimaginative jock and wannabe' ladies man.

Oh, and I'll join in with saying that Kitson's art was always good when I was reading. Except for the damn belly-shirts which nearly every female character wore. Not only because the phenomenon of female characters forever showing more skin than male characters has always bothered me. But because the Spears look was probably already painfully dated by the time the book had been going for a year, if not much sooner than that.

I'll also add that the fan artist who did a detailed and thoughtful race-bending of some early scenes was correct, too. It was ridiculous at this late date for a team meant to reflect a global and trans-planetary society to still be as overwhelmingly White (or White-coded) as it is here. Not to mention that even the modest steps toward non-humanoid characters which happened with Levitz and Lightle were waved away. Even ridiculed in one backup story in which the in-continuity Legion fan club of this era just plain didn't believe that such a thing was possible. Oh, and they snickered at the very idea of Dawnstar, too. Which in light of the overwhelming Whiteness of this era's team is... kinda' yucky.

Last edited by cleome55; 05/20/22 09:51 AM.

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Re: The Legion of Super Heroes v5 #8
cleome57 #1015218 05/20/22 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by cleome55
I think at the time, I had a backhanded liking for the new version of Ultra Boy. Not because he was a likable character, of course. But because I'd always found his original take pretty dull most of the time. Waid was correct to do what he did, in that sense that a team isn't credible by modern standards if each and every person has a nice vibe. Or the same motivations for doing what they do. In fact, most teams while I was reading superheroes the most had the token jerkbag who seemingly held on to goodness by a thread, or maybe by default or circumstance. (Wolverine, anyone?)

Oh, sure. And in the classic Legion, that was Wildfire, but even he would have his better moments and always worked for the team. Let's face it, no one wants a team where everyone acts and talks the same. When you get more than a few people together as a group, cliques form and personalities clash. The challenge (to me) here is that we have a defined backdrop of social problems (defined, but not well portrayed) that make all these kids act with an attitude which also leads to intra-team conflict. That's all fine. But this Jo Nah is basically a toddler with super powers.

Originally Posted by cleome55
I didn't read after Supergirl came on board. So I always wondered if Waid meant for Jo to have a character and/or redemption arc. In which we got a better sense of where the character was coming from (both literally and figuratively) and some kind of growth beyond unimaginative jock and wannabe' ladies man.

I aim to go through all 50, so we will see! smile

Originally Posted by cleome55
Oh, and I'll join in with saying that Kitson's art was always good when I was reading. Except for the damn belly-shirts which nearly every female character wore. Not only because the phenomenon of female characters forever showing more skin than male characters has always bothered me. But because the Spears look was probably already painfully dated by the time the book had been going for a year, if not much sooner than that.

The bare midriff seemed to signal "hyper-sexual" as that seemed to fit Ayla and Tasmia to a tee (we'll get to more Ayla fun in issue 9). Imra, Lu and Tinya don't have midriff costumes.

Originally Posted by cleome55
I'll also add that the fan artist who did a detailed and thoughtful race-bending of some early scenes was correct, too. It was ridiculous at this late date for a team meant to reflect a global and trans-planetary society to still be as overwhelmingly White (or White-coded) as it is here. Not to mention that even the modest steps toward non-humanoid characters which happened with Levitz and Lightle were waved away. Even ridiculed in one backup story in which the in-continuity Legion fan club of this era just plain didn't believe that such a thing was possible. Oh, and they snickered at the very idea of Dawnstar, too. Which in light of the overwhelming Whiteness of this era's team is... kinda' yucky.

I'm not familiar with this fan art. But yeah its a good point, and Waid's (who is a big fan of what Bendis is doing to the Legion) only real change was to cast Thom as black. This is another good example of odd character choices for this run.


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Re: The Legion of Super Heroes v5 #8
Gaseous Lad #1015227 05/20/22 11:31 AM
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I still think there was no need for restarting the Legion yet again. The new characters with their immature attitudes could have come from some of the same planets as the Reboot Legionnaires and become a new version of the Workforce.


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Re: The Legion of Super Heroes v5 #8
Ann Hebistand #1015228 05/20/22 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Ann Hebistand
I still think there was no need for restarting the Legion yet again. The new characters with their immature attitudes could have come from some of the same planets as the Reboot Legionnaires and become a new version of the Workforce.

Seriously. The reboot team would take one look at these guys and after what they've been through (at a younger age, may I add) be like, "oh, that's cute". smile

The threeboot team's attitude is kind of similar to the replacement Workforce at the beginning of the DnA run when I think about it.


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The Legion of Super Heroes v5 #9
Gaseous Lad #1015231 05/20/22 01:44 PM
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The Legion of Super Heroes v5 #9

Released August 24, 2005
DC Comics, Color
31 Pages

Mark Waid & Barry Kitson - Plot
Mark Waid - Dialogue
Georges Jeanty - Penciller
Art Thibert - Inks
Sno Cone - Colors
Stephen Wacker - Editor

Synopsis


Picking up the pieces from the core Legion's personnel rift, the schism spreads to the crowd of young Legion supporters in the plaza. Two kids begin to come to blows when Lyle steps in to cool it down, but they turn on him as one of the catalysts of the fallout. Lyle goes to try and stop Cos from leaving but is too late.

Meanwhile Cos is at the transport hub getting ready to leave to Braal, talking to Pol about the situation. Saturn Girl meets with her mother, the Titanian representative on Earth, who tells Imra about more worlds leaving the UP. Imra tries to warn about Lemnos but is lectured about passion while sending that information to Garth telepathically.

Garth and Luornu are strategizing when Lyle comes in with a suggestion, but is derided by Luornu. Ultra Boy walks in, apparently trying to bury the hatchet with Garth. The real Jo flies in and takes down Cham (who the first Jo was) and freaks out at him for trying to apologize on his behalf. Garth gets angry with both of them, and Cham gets really mad saying he's just trying to help. Jo starts to storm off but Lyle has made a discovery that could help the effort against Terra Firma.

Brainiac 5 is on the hot mining world of Helegyn. It's under attack and the existing forces are in retreat. Shadow Lass calls him and he asks for several Legionnaires with the exception of Lightning Lad. Also on Helegyn, Elysion and Lemnos confer about the plans to terraform Helegyn when the Legion team emerges from a portal. Invisible Kid tries to tag along but is rudely shoved back by Jo. He wanted to tell Brainy that three worlds will stop the coming war.

At the terminal, there is live coverage of the fighting on Helegyn, Cos tries to get in touch with the team. A crowd of Legion youths has gathered around Cos who also have to go back home. Cos starts to give a speech about not giving ground, calling people by name in the crowd, about how they've sacrificed a lot already. Its a great speech, but it doesn't convince everyone and several folks leave for their homes.

Cos walks to the portal to Braal, but is shocked to see he's been transported to Helegyn; Invisible kid reset the portal and follows him through.

At the Krinn home, an empty chair sits at the dinner table as Pol is glared at by his parents.

Commentary

This untitled (even on the cover) story is a dense issue where a lot happens to wind up the rest of the plot for the next few issues. We have a guest art team that isn't quite as consistently excellent from panel to panel, but still pretty good generally. There are a few moments where the art takes me out of the read - for example, there is a scene where Triplicate Girl reintegrates in the background and it looks like two of them are diagonally jumping behind the third - that detract a bit. Three storylines here eventually wind up together in Cosmic Boy de/reconstructing his reason for being in the Legion, and with Invisible Kid's help, finds his way back. Lu stating that Invisible Kid knows how to proactively defeat Terra Firma is a cool hook.

The big problem with this story to me, again, is Ultra Boy. So the Legion has been around for two years, him probably for at least half that time, and he's just now getting to this point? The guy is written as a super powered toddler. Why has no one fired this jerk? While yes, Cham was definitely in the wrong for doing what he did, he was at least *trying* to keep people together. Its certainly an interesting enough plot point for me to focus on this issue, but for all the wrong reasons, I think. Another interesting element to me was when Cos finishes his big inspirational speech in the terminal, a bunch of the kids literally say, "Whatever." Well, clearly there is something of a problem here, and again a world that I'm not sure I care for, as its inhabitants are much to close for that of our own reality for my liking.

Cos' reminiscing scene seems to show a couple familiar Legionnaires - namely Catspaw and Ferro Lad.

This also has another illustrated Waid/Kitson letter column starring Light Lass and Star Boy. Star Boy obsesses over Starman, and Ayla talks about tryouts - Flight rings are REALLLY expensive, so unless you are special you don't get one which segues into yet another explanation of the Legion's movement. This is kind of a problem to me - its the second time they've had to explain this world this way, which tells me that there is something fundamentally wrong in either the world you've created or the writing. And Waid's writing is pretty damn good.

There is also a response to the scene where Triplicate Girl suckered Sun Boy, Ultra Boy and Element Lad into a triple date of sorts with the implication that the scene was homophobic. So we get hit over the head yet again on how Ayla seems to be biblically familiar with all the guys. Seriously, is it like part of the initiation for the guys on this team? Yeah, yeah - TEEN HORMONES!!! - But I think I'd appreciate a scoche more subtlety here. I think the main problem I'm having is that Waid writes all his teens here as experts in sex, for characterization or titillation I can't decide, but without writing any of the team as insecure or trying to figure it out, which is the REAL story of MOST teens. Ayla also says the Legion wrote the book on tolerance. Honey, the Legion may have written the book on tolerance - but it wasn't THIS Legion. You're looking for the one ten years prior.

The lettercol ends with a cute joke about reboots.

Grade B-.


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Re: The Legion of Super Heroes v5 #9
Gaseous Lad #1015238 05/21/22 04:51 AM
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While I can grouse about stuff I thought could have been done better, or revamped characterizations that were, IMO, strictly inferior to previous 'boots, I do admit that this 'boot had some of the more imaginative worlds as set-pieces. Previous versions sometimes fell into the old school sci-fi trope of making each planet a 'World of Hats,' with this being the desert world and this being the icy world and this being the water world, and these aliens being the angry ones (that are totally not Klingons) and these other aliens being the cerebral brainy ones (that are totally not Vulcans), but Waid really leaned into some slightly more updated sci-fi tropes.

That said, the indy series Hypernaturals (by Abnett and Lanning!, which really did, at times, read like ideas that had been deemed too futuristic and transhuman for use in their Legion work), took it a step even further!


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Re: The Legion of Super Heroes v5 #9
Gaseous Lad #1015248 05/21/22 07:43 AM
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I completely agree about this version of Ultra Boy. It just takes me out of the fantasy and immersion. I can deal with him getting angry and confronting Cham for impersonating him, but how can a super team have a member whose first instinct is to super-strength punch his teammates when he is angry? He's worse than the school bullies depicted in most works of fiction!

... and he does not help make the case that adults = bad, kids = good either!

Re: The Legion of Super Heroes v5 #9
Set #1015251 05/21/22 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Set
While I can grouse about stuff I thought could have been done better, or revamped characterizations that were, IMO, strictly inferior to previous 'boots, I do admit that this 'boot had some of the more imaginative worlds as set-pieces. Previous versions sometimes fell into the old school sci-fi trope of making each planet a 'World of Hats,' with this being the desert world and this being the icy world and this being the water world, and these aliens being the angry ones (that are totally not Klingons) and these other aliens being the cerebral brainy ones (that are totally not Vulcans), but Waid really leaned into some slightly more updated sci-fi tropes.

Yeah, so far we haven't seen any interesting (to me anyway) planets, but I know we are about to get there in the next few issues. Sci-fi is easy to make funny hats. smile The intro of Titanians here being mute was a cool spin.

Quote
That said, the indy series Hypernaturals (by Abnett and Lanning!, which really did, at times, read like ideas that had been deemed too futuristic and transhuman for use in their Legion work), took it a step even further!

They seemed to be much better for big bombastic sci-fi to me


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Re: The Legion of Super Heroes v5 #9
Invisible Brainiac #1015252 05/21/22 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Invisible Brainiac
I completely agree about this version of Ultra Boy. It just takes me out of the fantasy and immersion. I can deal with him getting angry and confronting Cham for impersonating him, but how can a super team have a member whose first instinct is to super-strength punch his teammates when he is angry? He's worse than the school bullies depicted in most works of fiction!

... and he does not help make the case that adults = bad, kids = good either!

Your last comment is I think the distillation of my challenge with the society as its presented here. Yeah the adults may suck, but these kids, while heroic and fighting the bad guys, kinda suck too. laugh


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Re: The Legion of Super Heroes v5 #9
Gaseous Lad #1015257 05/21/22 11:46 AM
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the mute Titanians, or Star Boy being allergic to sugar, were interesting bits.

I also have to praise the cool things done with Cargg, Bgztl and Naltor smile

and yeah, these heroes are super rough at the moment. not just rough, but they do not necessarily have me rooting for them tongue

The Legion of Super Heroes v5 #10
Gaseous Lad #1015313 05/23/22 07:40 PM
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The Legion of Super Heroes v5 #10

Released September 28, 2005
DC Comics, Color
30 Pages

Cover - Traitor!

Mark Waid - Writer
Barry Kitson - Penciller
Drew Geraci - Inker
Sno Cone - Colors
Stephen Wacker - Editor

Synopsis

The Battle of Helegyn has been won by the Legionnaires and they've taken Elysion prisoner. Dream Girl demands he explain their plans as everything an hour hence is black. Brainy orders a meeting in the plaza, and the other Legionnaires corral the kids. Cos and Brainy let everyone know what the stakes are and reunite for the cause of the coming battle.

Inside HQ, we get an explanation of how Helegyn ended; Shadow Lass and Element Lad lured Elysion to the icy half of the tidally locked world, where he passed out and was captured. Projectra arrives and notes that Elysion is wearing Brin's jacket. Saturn Girl interrogates Elysion to get the plans. Invisible Kid is enthusiastic, but the whole team can't stand him. Val takes him aside and explains that he needs to show more integrity. Lyle blames narcing on Cos' lab break in on Shrinking Violet/Atom Girl, who Val explains is mythical. Lyle escorts Elysion to a prison cell.

Projectra asks what is going on, and Cos sums up the plot in about three panels. Brainy and Dreamy try to figure out why she can't see into the future. Brainy posits that Lemnos has somehow cloaking the future. He offers to fix her power. Cos explains the plan - split the team into three groups, one for Terra Firma's base, one for Trxxl and one for Dormir, with a small group remaining on Earth. Projectra appeals to join an away team to go out fighting. Elysion baits Lyle and Brainy keeps working to help Dreamy, which she thinks is sweet.

In Otherspace, Lemnos presses a button, which signals several suicide bombers in Legion plaza to detonate themselves. Bedlam ensues in the plaza while a final bomber comes to the cell and detonates himself, freeing Elysion. Brainy tries to signal the other teams, but Elysion has destroyed the transmitter. Science Police are trying to help the situation on the plaza, but unwittingly pens them all in. Brainy, Dreamy and Lyle do what they can to rescue individuals while Elysion rips the plaza apart. In 90 seconds Brainy says something humorous then Dreamy can't see the future.

Lyle gets hurt in the debris, and Nura sends Brainy to help him - but Lyle may have broken his humerus.

Elysion annihilates Legion HQ. Brainy and Lyle make their way out of the rubble to see Elysion headed to UP HQ. Lyle thinks he sees Dream Girl, but its another girl with similar hair and clothes.

Brainy finds Dream Girl crushed to death in the rubble.

Commentary

Well damn. This particular issue, to me, is as impactful as the reboot's Legionnaires Annual 2. We get a summary of how the prior battle ended up, but still moving the plot forward, centered around Nura's inability to see the future. Of course, no one even thinks of the fact that its because she won't be part of it. Elysion's plan to be caught on purpose is diabolically brilliant and the suicide bombers are chilling. The only thing that didn't really sit well with me was the team's continued dumping on Lyle. That whole thing is getting old. But other than that the attack on HQ and the inevitability of what was going to happen when the humorous/humerus mention happens is shocking. This plot MOVES while also conveying a TON of information, and the taking away of one of the few characters of this version that I liked genuinely hurt at the end. But best of all, the end of the book makes you do what all good comic book stories do - make you want to pick up the next issue immediately.

Art here is amazing. Kitson's spread of the takedown of Legionnaire HQ is as breathtaking as it is devastating.

A couple other notes:

Apparently Legion HQ used to be some kind of government facility. I'm thinking an old SP building or prison.

We finally get teased with other mysterious new worlds for the other Legion teams.

Grade - A+. A fantastic issue all around, and the best of this series so far.

Last edited by Gaseous Lad; 05/23/22 07:41 PM.

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