Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes How do you rate the Great Darkness Saga?

Great thoughtful review Thoth, with several new points to consider (new to me at any rate). I had never considered that this plot might have influenced Crisis but now I have I can see your point.

Yeah, there are some good perspectives that I never thought of either, thanks thoth

With DC pumping out ever-escalating multiversal hot messes every couple of years now it's kind of easy to take for granted that at one point the GDS would actually have been of really epic scope both with how it built up narratively and with the power levels and masses of characters involved

There were some "Great" (heh) things in the *Great* Darkness Saga in terms of character development, involving a large cast of the Legion and other characters, epic scope, and excellent pacing, including a proper and well-executed build-up of an ominous threat. The final climax was also given the proper amount of story space and was fairly satisfying. (all of which are rare in comics these days, sadly)

HOWEVER, it will never be may favorite Legion arc, simply because it relies too heavily on the reader being familiar with the New Gods. ("WTF is a Mother-box", one might otherwise wonder?)

I ended up voting with what appears to be the plurality so far ("among the best"), but give me the Earthwar saga any day.

I don't know if that's true, the GDS was the very first time I ever read anything even remotely connected to the New Gods but it definitely didn't ruin my enjoyment of it.
Heck it was my first exposure to the Legion and to anything related to the Superman mythos that you couldn't get from pop culture osmosis in the early 90s (we didn't get the GDS immediately in Italy), but I didn't feel lost in the slightest.
It does a good enough job at telling you that Darkseid is A Very Very Big Deal Villain, that his tech/powers is dangerous even by Legion standards, and the relationship with Orion and Highfather is pretty straightforward.


A device that Darkseid has that's very advanced and very dangerous. That's all you really need to know for the story to make sense, isn't it? You don't even really need to tackle the idea that it's alive in some sense, but if you do, a single narration box can tell you that.
Let's be honest, the basic Fourth World concepts are not that hard to summarize in a couple of panels.

By the way, my retrospective should reach the Great Darkness Saga in a couple of months or so. After the Conway/Thomas era which was kind of a slog to get through, it should be fun!
I'll eventually post the links.

I think I'm with CA, I am pretty sure I maybe vaguely knew of Darkseid being a DC bad guy when I read GDS, but I definitely didn't know anything about Highfather or any of the rest of the New Gods mythos....I think if you assume Levitz made them all up on the spot it works just as well as a story, I didn't feel lost at any point.

I think also reading comics as a kid in Australia in the 80s meant just finding incomplete runs and random issues in newsagents and 2nd hand shops mostly so pretty much everything I read I had to piece together backstories and who was who etc, it was just part of the reading experience (having said that, I remember being disappointed Shady's ancestor wasn't some epic present day hero in comics because of how the story portrayed her lol)

Much the same for me. I too was unfamiliar with the Fourth World stuff on first reading and still enjoyed it a lot. When later rereading it with some of that knowledge it enhanced my enjoyment but it was still a good story without knowing that background.

It would be interesting to hear from a completely new reader from today (if such a person would ever pick up the trade) to see how they felt about it with all the additional exposure the New Gods and Darkseid in particular have had since that time. Of course it would be pretty much impossible for them not to know who the big bad was going in. No surprise reveal for them.

A bit tangential, but I first read the GDS after being introduced to the SW6 Legion. So you can imagine my confusion, I was like 8 at the time.

Then I got a few issues of the Reboot Legion, and got even more confused

Like:

why does Leviathan have headgear here, and not there
Oh, this Ayla is also Garth's sister, but has lightning powers! I guess he has two... wait, but they're twins...
Why is Garth called Live Wire here, and Lightning Lad there?
Why is Kid Quantum a jerk here, and nice and calm there?

and then 8-year old me discovered the Internet...

Fair points, CA and razsolo.

Probably "WTF is a Mother-box" was a bad explanation as to why the dependence on New Gods ranks GDS lower for me... it wasn't confusion , it is really more that bringing in characters and artifacts from outside the Legion universe feels like a contrivance, even if what they are and what they represent is easy to understand. But more importantly, the issue is that prefer the Legion to star in a Legion epic - I'd feel the same if they brought in Batman characters who i am 100% familiar with instead of New Gods,,

Anyway, it is not like it ruined the story for me - I still think GDS is great, this is just what keeps me from ranking it at the top of LSH storylines.

As promised, since my retrospective has reached the GDS, I'll be posting the links and some observations. Though it's just the prologue now.

https://comicsarcheology.com/index.php/2022/09/07/legion-of-super-heroes-287-part-1/
https://comicsarcheology.com/index.php/2022/09/07/legion-of-super-heroes-287-part-2/

Having started reading the Legion with the following issue, it's amazing to me just how many things that I thought were iconic parts of the Legion were actually far more recent... the Mission Monitor icons and Interlac were JUST introduced by the time we got to the GDS!

Also, as mentioned at the end of the second part... would Darkseid have been awakened if Mon-El got to Apokolips without Shadow Lass? I got the impression that it was mostly because of her shadow power.

Oh this'll be fun next bunch of entries from you, CA!

You're right, GDS was very early in the Levitz run, which is really ambitious. And I'm glad that you noted the REDACTED importance of this issue.

Still in the prologue phase, but this holds a special place in my heart since it contains the first Legion pages I ever read.

https://comicsarcheology.com/index.php/2022/09/14/legion-of-super-heroes-288/

It's kind of weird that Hagga doesn't have a more prominent role in Projectra's appearances, isn't it? She could've been a great villain during the Sensor Girl era.
Also, do we know how far back Levitz planned the switch between Shrinking Violet and Yera? I haven't found any major red flags so far, but if it was already planned you can read some insight between the lines... or if he decided later you can read too much into it.

I rate it "among the best". Back then, Darkseid was known but not ubiquitous. The creative team dropped good hints for those familiar with the Fourth World to catch, and did a great job generating a sense of menace, especially in that scene where Daxam slowly rotates to reveal its new shape as Darkseid's head. Lots of references to Legion history and broad use of the supporting cast. Some have complained that the Highfather baby was something of a deus ex machina, but that's not true at all - he was intentionally summoned/conjured by the White Witch with a spell to get something that could defeat Darkseid. Also, to those who have had an issue with the Daxamites being too easily beaten, remember that they were not used to having super-powers.

I feel that other stories have since eclipsed it, but it was definitely one of the greats.

In my fanon, Hagga may have been a spiteful old batwitch, but she was fond of her relative (nephew? grandson? I don't even know...) Pharoxx, and after his death at the hands of the LSV, after betraying his world to the LSV (a fitting end!), she bargained with dark powers and gave up her own life to resurrect him.

Only for no-longer-Prince Pharoxx, freshly reborn after being off-handedly betrayed and murdered by the same villains he was betraying his own world to, decided, 'This ain't working.' and turned his life around, and, being exiled-under-pain-of-death from Orando, now wanders the UP as a sorcerer/swordsman/adventurer of sorts, trying to do some good, despite his upbringing and motivations, because he's already seen where his previous inclinations got him.

He's not a natural at this 'hero' thing, but he's not an *idiot* and this 'villain' thing was not working out. Plus his afterlife may not have been fun, and he might be *strongly* motivated to go somewhere better next time...

Still technically in the prologues.

https://comicsarcheology.com/index.php/2022/09/24/legion-of-super-heroes-289-part-1/
https://comicsarcheology.com/index.php/2022/09/24/legion-of-super-heroes-289-part-2/

Anyone else thinks Ayla is blowing what happened on the asteroid way out of proportion?
Since her relationship with Timber Wolf had quite a few signs of being a toxic one (and it's way obvious they would've split up even without the asteroid thing), it's quite interesting to see how the relationship that is impressing Saturn Girl so much is going under negative light.
Why wasn't she on the mission to save the missing Legionnaires, though?

This was my first full Legion story, and while the main story holds up very well in my opinion, that second one... really doesn't. At the time I assumed that R’Xalim was a regular Legion villain and I liked the design, but I must've been so impressed by discovering the Legion that I didn't really realize the second story is quite dumb. While I do like the way Levitz writes Brainy's internal dialogue... the garden just happens to have a flower that Element Lad is allergic to? Seriously?

Finally, please tell me this is the only time Bismollians are shown to be able to eat Inertron. I really, really don't like the idea that there's an entire planet of people who can eat the super-indestructible metal!
If it doesn't happen again... maybe Tenzil still has enough energy from the Miracle Machine left in him that allows him to eat Inertron? That stuff cannot be easy to digest, even for a Bismollian!

I enjoyed your latest write-up tanks again for the link.

It was ages before I got a copy of this issue and so it still seems somewhat fresh to me. I never understood how two teammates supporting each other in a crisis situation was evidence of infidelity or romantic affection. I can see that's what Levitz was going for in a wishy-washy kind of way with their hesitant pauses etc but it doesn't work for me. Then in the coming issues the rest of the team proceeds to gossip about "it". Otherwise the asteroid story is alright. the backup story - not so good and I agree with you about the inertron thing. Of course ME-Lad's powers have always been a bit up to the current writer - sometimes he can eat anything, sometimes he can't eat organic stuff, sometimes he can eat at super-speed - and nobody ever seems to comment on how super-powerful his jaw muscles and bone structure must be just to break up the chunks he munches on. Being able to digest something doesn't mean you can chew it. Just one of those many non-sensical element s of super-powers I guess, like E-Lad forming dispersed free-floating atoms of anything in to dense solid collections of something else. It just is.

Me. I thought this from the beginning. Garth did not react in anywhere near as much intensity. And all they did see was Imra and Brin hugging - they didn't even kiss. this whole thing always annoyed me, because you could see Brin TRY to talk to Ayla, and she silent treatment-ed and stonewalled him (a personal pet peeve of mine, and indeed one of the most unhealthy things one can do in a relationship)

TBH, this whole thing soured me on Element Lad too - Jan made snide comments to both Imra and Brin, without even hearing them out...

... the only thing that saved Ayla and Jan in my eyes? was Imra and Brin also talking about it in that one scene, and admitting they had their own small doubts.

But still, this whole thing was so annoying. I get that super heroes need drama too, but it reminded me of high school all over again.

Makes me wonder if Imra and Brin were originally supposed to kiss on the asteroid but it was vetoed because she was married?
I've heard dumber editorial interference.

One of the comments to my review calls this issue character assassination for Lightning Lad... but frankly I don't see it: every single other Legionnaire keeps telling him that the botched mission wasn't his fault, so I really don't think the story itself is blaming Garth. And I do buy that he's the kind of hero who feels responsible for stuff he couldn't possibly be blamed for (think Spider-Man).

The comment also raises an interesting point: was Chameleon Boy actually elected to the position of leader of the Espionage Squad?

I always thought the Espionage Squad was an unofficial thing, so I doubt there were leader elections.

I also agree that the Imra/Brin thing would have made much more sense if they had actually kissed...as it happened, it comes across as a very CW thing where the most minor conflict is blown out to ridiculous proportions just for the sake of drama.

I think I'm following along the same lines as most here. Ayla was overreacting to what she saw.

And in my opinion, I viewed this as (between personal experience and that of many I've known around that time and others in my life) that Ayla and Brin's relationship had been on thinning ice, and she used this incident as the final break. So yes it was overblown, but I think it can be viewed as her using it as an excuse to get out of a relationship she felt as stale.

Re Cham and the Espionage Squad, I think the precedent was set in a story near the end of Action Comics. Cham is contacted to form a team for an espionage squad mission, so that places him as leader. And he can draw from the entire Legion for his team. None of his other pics had stealthy powers - Imra, Val, Brin, Brainy and Jan were the others. They all just took on false identities.

Yeah, I feel the same way. They kind of both felt a bit outsidery, and glommed together at the start, but Brin was kind of needy, emotionally, and Ayla was exhausted by his dependence. Even the suggestion that he might be unfaithful provided her an 'out' from a relationship that was suffocating her.

And given how they've developed since then, I think their breakup was good for *both* of them. As long as he could cling to her for emotional support, he wasn't learning to move past his own traumatic past and stand on his own. Blok was kind of a perfect friend for him, in that sense, since Blok could be a good friend, but was utterly clueless about Brin's emotional BS, and couldn't be 'leaned on' in that manner.

Granted, that's all me reading into the text, but that's how it 'makes sense' to me.

The last of the preludes, with the most terrifying version of Computo to date:
https://comicsarcheology.com/index.php/2022/09/30/legion-of-super-heroes-annual-1/

The introduction of the new Invisible Kid is not bad and I will eventually like the character, but the fact that he was immediately promoted to full membership doesn't make all that much sense. I could buy it in the Hamilton era, but at this point the Legion Academy is well established!
How come Jacques immediately goes to the Legion but people like Lamprey and Crystal Kid are stuck in the Academy forever?

And finally the REAL beginning of the saga.
https://comicsarcheology.com/index.php/2022/10/08/legion-of-super-heroes-290/

I think Levitz wanted us to think the big bad guy was Mordru, with all the emphasis on magic during the first part.
It is kind of funny to see Darkseid wear that ridiculous outfit, not to mention the fact that Boom Tubes are now Plink Portals. It helps with the mystery and it's not unreasonable to think they've been upgraded, but still, kind of weird in retrospect.

It was interesting to see in the letters page that Dream Girl winning the election was not planned! Lots of interesting details on the votes.

I don't think many readers realized the Wand of Mentachem was not introduces here. Admittedly I'm not a big Hawkman fan so I didn't know either until I did some research for the review.

I loved that Annual. I had encountered the Legion before in black-and-white reprints with a few scattered stories from the adventure Era through the SLSH Era (along with others like Doom Patrol and Teen Titans etc), but this story (which was still a BaW reprint) really grabbed me. I had no idea who Computo was, never mind the other mentions such as the Earthwar or even Mordru. I was even pretty vague on who each legionnaire was, but this story was one my favourite superhero comics for a long time.

Your review of #290 is great too. Lots of good points.

I am trying to remember how many servants there were - the super, "Big Dome", shadow, and the rider - but there was an unspecified one that destroyed itself against Earth's dome in the Annual, and the image of Big Bad in his funny costume receiving the wand and sword shows another servant in the background. Am I forgetting someone or is this a well known goof that I have forgotten?

Those are the four that I remember most. Superman, Orion, an Oan, and the Mallor ancestor (I forgot Kalibak entirely!). I liked at the time how each tapped into some historical figure, and while we didn't necessarily know them all like Superman and Orion, at least they had some historical import to the characters (particularly Tasmia, in the case of having to fight a corrupt mockery of one of her heroic ancestors!). As I've gotten older, I also appreciate that they weren't all just twisted clones of the Justice League, since it would have been too easy to just make one a Superman clone, one a Wonder Woman clone, one a Flash clone, etc. and that while I love the Crime Syndicate, that sort of concept gets old fast.

I do feel the Mallor clone was under-explored (and it's effects on Tasmia), and there might have been even more pathos to be mined from one of the Servants being a twisted clone of a long-dead Trommite figure from history, since Jan is literally the only living member of his race, and seeing even their past and memory desecrated like this would be pretty wrenching for him.

double post. ugh!