Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Best Legion fighter?

Yeah of course it's Karate Kid, but... which one is the best hand-to-hand fighter?
Not the best character, mind you. Just who is the best fighter.

ORIGINAL VERSION
If we don't include his personal series, I'm inclined to think he might not be the best... he's got several impressive wins sure, but also his fair share of losses.
If we DO include his personal series, he surpasses anyone with his trademark Bulls##t Karate: the dude stopped AND REVERSED an earthquake with a kick!

KARATE KID II (Myg)
I can't honestly remember a single thing he did. Anything impressive that could potentially place him above any version of Val?

REBOOT VERSION
The reboot Val is a strong contender, considering his ability to find weaknesses is treated as pretty much a superpower (much like Marvel's Karnak).
He lacks the most absurd displays of his counterparts, except maybe that time he was quicker than the forcefield that if I remember correctly was holding XS too.

THREEBOOT VERSION
In terms of absurdity I only remember him karate chopping the ice sheet above the Sydney Opera House.

BENDIS VERSION
Never read it so ¯\_(?)_/¯


I should point out that both the threeboot and retroboot versions lost to Batman.
I can cut some slack to the retroboot KK since Batman admitted it wasn't a fair fight, but the threboot Val definitely straight up lost.
I can't imagine the original or the reboot Karate Kid ever losing to Batman in a fight, fair or otherwise.


As a follow-up: excluding Karate Kid, which other Legionnaire do you think is the best hand-to-hand fighter?
There's a lot of competition there between various versions of Tasmia, Luornu (especially the reboot) and even Dream Girl (post-Legion Lost reboot and the threeboot).

Was Val "quicker" per se than that forcefield (Legionnaires 22)? I thought he just concentrated really hard to find its weak spot.

He did redirect a possessed M'Onel mid-flight once (though that was under an orange sun, so he was at half-power. Plus Lar was possessed so he was not using his skills/powers to their best (LSH 111). and he staggered a Daxamite holding up a cruiser (Legionnaires Annual 2).



Was Nura post-Legion Lost reboot that good? I mean, she was good, for sure, but the most I remember her doing was sucker-punching Sensor (Dream Crime finale, Legion 23). I can't quite think of any better moment for her.

Now post-Reboot Violet, I would throw in as a contender. LSH 66 (her debut) had her doing quite a number on Micro.

Was Preboot Tasmia all that good? Reboot and Threeboot sure, but I don't quite recall Preboot being that impressive.

Admittedly I might be misremembering the specifics. But still, the way he used to find the weak spots was pretty much a regular superpower in all his appearances.


I was sure I was forgetting someone from the reboot! You're absolutely right. Come to think of it, her talent for fighting wasn't much of a focus later on. A sparring session with Triad would've been fun, considering the variety in personality between Luornu's bodies.


Compared to the threeboot version or to Triad and Violet? Definitely no. Compared to the majority of Legionnaires that don't usually fight hand-to-hand? I'd say yes.


Not as impressive as her other versions, but Tasmia was great in her fight against Lady Memory in Tales Of The Legion Of Super-Heroes #319.

I ranked them for a superhero game that put people on a 1 to 5 scale for humans, and only people with better-than-human abilities (superpowers) got to use the 6 and above ranks.

Karate Kid was the sole 6, because his mastery of martial arts essentially was his super-power (and with the Lythyl reveal, he's potentially got centuries worth of martial arts skills, learned as a teenager, in the spatial pockets outside of normal spacetime within Lythyl, so he totally rates as having a level of skill that no normal mortal could gain).

Shadow Lass, Dream Girl, Shrinking Violet, Timber Wolf and Ultra Boy were 5, as the 'punchiest' of the Legionnaires with the most fighting spirit and propensity to wade into hand to hand.

Colossal Boy, Saturn Girl, Mon-El, Lightning Lad, Phantom Girl, Chameleon Boy, Dawnstar, Blok, Ferro Lad, etc. were 4, all above average fighters, but not as dedicated to it.
(Jo is a better hand to hand fighter than Mon, for instance, because he grew up on the streets in a gang, while Mon is a scientist / explorer (with much more reliable powers of offense and defense)).

those who tended to avoid hand to hand combat for the most part, like Cosmic Boy, Sun Boy, Tyroc, Polar Boy, Chemical King, etc. were 3.

less combative sorts like Element Lad, Tellus, White Witch and Brainy were 2.

Some I kind of guessed on. I've not really seen enough of Tyroc, for instance, to know if he's more 'hangs back and throws zaps' in combat like Polar Boy or Cosmic Boy, or if, like Saturn Girl, his background gives him some decent hand to hand training. Others vary with the 'boot pretty dramatically. Reboot Triplicate Girl with her tri-jutsu is at least a 4, maybe even a 5. Umbra OTOH, might drop to a 4, since her powers were much zappier than 'Lights Out Lass' and she didn't *have* to punch people as much.

Because his power is all about smashing into people, Bouncing Boy might have a surprising 4 as well, even if his 'fighting skill' is more slamming into folk than throwing hands. It may not look elegant, but it requires skill and precision to be effective, and he's *very* good at what he does, which is bowling over the bad-guys.

Naturally all of this is my notions, based on the amount of hand-to-hand I've seen them wade into (and their inclination to do so, some Legionnaires, like Element Lad or Witch Witch, tend to avoid the fisticuffs!). Others might have far more informed opinions!

That's a great analysis!


Val pretty much exists to be off the charts in this kind of ranking :-)

I agree with most of your rankings with the exception of Phantom Girl (I'm not entirely sure her style of combat can be measured like this) and Ultra Boy (I'd put him as a 4, above average but not dedicated)... but that's just nitpicking.
Wildfire would probably be a 3... same reasoning of Ultra Boy, except he's way out of shape since he doesn't have a body anymore, although he gets into fisticuffs a surprising amount of times for a guy without a body.

I wonder where you'd rank Superboy (Kal) on a scale like this. Does he get a proper fight any time he loses his powers? I know pre-Crisis Superman is a shockingly good hand-to-hand fighter in many stories where he loses his powers, but I don't know about Superboy.


I think she deserves a 5.

Speaking of the reboot, I'd easily put Shikari as a 5.

I'd be fine for bumping Jo down a notch, so long as he remains a bit above Mon. I feel like he's much more 'fight-y' by nature (and experience) than Mon.

Superboy would be right up there with Jo. He may not have grown up on the rough streets of Rimbor, running in a gang, but he's had a hell of a lot more experience than Mon, or even Jo, thanks to his own stories and adventures in the 20th century. (And as Superman, he's even more experienced, as has been suggested in at least one continuity to have all the martial arts of ancient Krypton downloaded into his noggin, along with their science, religion, language, etc.)

I may be a bit biased with Tinya, since she's one of my favorites, and she has come across as a bit 'helpless girly-girl' at times. (Then again, so has Dreamy and Projectra and Saturn Girl, at times, and at other times, they are neck-snappin' iron-butt-havin' nasskickers!) I might have overrated Lightning Lad as well (and totally forgotten Ayla, for that matter! Bad Set!), since he's more enthusiastic than particularly skilled, IMO.

ÇA Lad - thanks for pointing out Tasmia versus Lady Memory, need to have a look at that

Set - curious, can you share some cases where Garth showed off his fighting skills Preboot? I can’t think of any, but may have missed someone

For Tinya, I will put forward LSH 104 (I may be off an issue) where she fights Kono while both are phasing - it’s implied that Tinya would have won, had Kono not been teleported away. I don’t think she’s better than Lu or Vi, but she is pretty good

For Reboot Tasmia - I will put forward Legion 2 and Legion 24, where Tasmia is without her darkfield, as showcases of her combat ability without the darkfield advantage in legion 24 she even fights against her darkfield!

I think Reboot Lyle could potentially be a 4 too. In Legionnaires 66 he manages to flip Charma nearly across a room. I’d rank him about the same as Imra - in Legionnaires 33 she shows her stuff against a brainwashed Jan Arrah

I wonder how we would rank Chameleon. As a shapeshifter, he has his advantages; how would we assess his fighting skills then? But I think he should be a 3 or even maybe a 4?

Another tough one to rank is Sensor. But quite a few DNA issues show her fighting quite well too. Again, another hard one to assess

Cosmic Boy is an interesting one too. He’s a top magnoball athlete, so I’d expect he could be a decent fighter if he trained and tried. Can’t think of any real cases of him hand to hand fighting though, not even when his powers were gone (maybe I missed some instances 5YL? I don’t think he actually fought hand to hand in that Emerald Empress story where he slaps a panicking Ayla)!

Star Boy is another one who seemed like he should be athletic, and could be a decent hand to hand fighter. (I’m not sure why I have this impression, other than him being a batball coach 5YL…)

At least some of my rankings came from the personalities of the characters as much as their 'feats.'

Element Lad was no less fit than the average super-fit super-hero, but he's just not very fight-y by nature. Garth, while not generally prone to wading into fightfights any more than Rokk, at least feels to me like he's got a lot more of a physically aggressive side (while Imra, at least when she's got the SP trainee background, at least has the training and skills to back it up, much like Colossal Boy). Violet is another one who never really seemed to be very 'fight-y,' but after her capture at the hands of the Imskian resistance, she got way more punch-y by nature (and, presumably, picked up some advanced training).

Star Boy's an interesting one. He seemed 'fight-ier' back when he had all of Superboy's powers (plus electrical vision), but by his later appearances, when he just had his mass-increasing abilities, he seemed to spend more time just flying back and using his powers, and not mixing it up as much in hand to hand. (I guess having once been super-strong and invulnerable would put a damper on one's desire to get all punchy with people with guns and stuff.)

Sun Boy seems like another improbably fit and body-conscious sort who does NOT have any interest in getting punched in the face, and so is more likely to hang back and throw zaps, unless it's someone like Regulus, who personally pisses him off (and, happy day, is an older less-fit less-hand-to-hand-combat inclined fellow!).

In the 2006 Legion animated series, Triplicate Girl was shown to be an accomplished hand-to-hand combatant.
I particularly appreciated when she went up against the Persuader.
The visual effects were impressive as well.
In the comics, I think they called it "Tri-Jitsu"

https://youtu.be/MI-AX2AD5Zo?t=11

indeed, it was tri-jitsu - in the Reboot too, she used it a lot. one of my faves was her fighting the Composite Durlan, who had copied her triplication ability... but not her skills. Luornu was able to stun him so Ayla could come in for an assist.

The Composite Durlan kept attacking his own triplicates, while Lu knew who was who - and she reintegrated and triplicated strategically in that battle.


Makes sense, Set. natural athleticism certainly does not equate to fighting skill, or desire to fight hand to hand.

It would be interesting to revisit that from a lens of how aggressively characters also use their powers . Element Lad for example is more likely to restrain or disable. Cosmic Boy, sometimes he restrains, sometimes he launches a brute-force attack...

Yanno, I could have sworn I read somewhere that after Vi got rescued from the sens-tank she became the Legion's best HTH fighter...I may have imagined it, but she did definitely become a lot more capable in combat. I know she kicked Micro Lad's ass the next time she came across him, but kicking Micro Lad's ass is probably not all that noteworthy to be honest

I would probably pick Dream Girl, Vi and Timber Wolf as the best HTH fighters from the original Legion - Brin obviously gets an advantage because his power is strength + agility, but even keeping that in mind he was skilled enough to handle both Mon-El and Superboy together at one stage.

In my headcanon, Shadow Lass is a much better HTH fighter than people would expect - she just prefers not to get her hands dirty most of the time. She fared well against an armed Lady Memory, and there was an early scene in the 5YL Legion where she beat the crap out of a Probe assassin. I kind of like the idea that she prefers to rely on her power or let her Daxamite boyfriend beat people up for her, but she's perfectly capable of doing it herself when she wants to.

Invisible Jacques also seems to have developed into a lot better fighter between the 80s and the retroboot, he seemed to be much more comfortable getting into fights in the last couple series! I don't think we saw any evidence that he's any better than any of the others mentioned above but I think there was clear improvement!

One would think versions of Ultra Boy that grew up in more of a gang environment would have some decent brawling skill, even without his powers.

Likewise versions of Colossal Boy that have Science Police training.

There were a few flashbacks for Reboot Ultra Boy that showed decent brawling skills (see Legends of the Legion 1 from before he got his powers)

Ooh, I just remembered some off-hand note from the Threeboot that Turtle, the invulnerable dude from Doopa, was the best martial artist they'd seen since Karate Kid! Still, we never got to actually see that on-panel, so it's just a cut above fanon, even if it came from the creator of the character.

In 5YL, I think we can confidently say that both Rokk and Vi have been solidly trained in HTH combat techniques, considering that they were members of the armed forces of their respective planets during the war.