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It is unusual for High School romances to last into adulthood, although it does happen. However, with the Legion, it is the rule rather than the exception.
On the other hand, at least in my mind, most of the Legionnaire couples are beautifully matched.

I am going to present my analyses here of the psychology and personalities of these Legion couples, at least as I see them. A lot of it is my reading detail into stories that are perhaps not there, but I will try to avoid imposing too much of my own headcanon. I hope.

To begin with, I am going to look at TOS, 5YL and the Retroboot Legion, without particularly differentiating one from another.

I may later look at the Batch SW6 / Reboot Legionnaires, and the Threeboot, but I will have to do some research, because except for the Brainy / Andromeda, Brainy / Dreamer, and Phantom Girl / Ultraboy pairings, I don’t remember the details of other romantic relationships.

I look forward to your thoughts and comments, of course. And I am always ready to believe I am wrong in my opinions,

I will begin with what I consider the epitome of Legion romances:

#1: Saturn Girl (Imra Ardeen) and Lightning Lad (Garth Ranzz)
(of course)

When first introduced, telepathy was only one aspect of Saturn Girl’s ‘super-mind’. She displayed expert detective skills, as well as expertise in 3Oth-century sciences. It is possible that Binder intended her people to be more highly evolved, reflecting Heslod’s utopian society of the “Golden Age of Saturn”. But Imra’s super-intelligence was later *sub* to Brainiac 5’s “12th-level Computer Mind.”
Nevertheless, Imra is inarguably one of the brainier members of the Legion.
So what is a smart girl like Hermione Imra doing with a dolt like Ron Garth?

No, Garth is not stupid. He is impulsive, even rash, but he is not stupid. He has a number of redeeming qualities as well. His love of family is evident-- even for his black sheep older brother Mekt. He is heroic and brave-- the sort who runs toward gunfire. He also has hidden depths-- Imra is not entirely able to read his deepest thoughts, and that intrigues her. He became all the more intriguing when a shadow of the Soul of Antares’ personality melded with his, calming his more reckless impulses.

Although Lightning Ring Farms lives fallow for a decade or more, Garth returns there. Imra likes this domesticity, and Garth’s extended family: Ayla and Mekt, and Salu and Rokk and Lydda. She is comfortable there: note that none of her blood relatives come to live on Winath.

And then there is Garridan and Graym and Dorrit and Dacey. Garth and Imra evolve into the patriarch and matriarch of a large family.

Comfortable is the word for their relationship. They are comfortable and secure in their love for one another, and have planned for a long future together.

this is a great thread, Klar!

beautiful write-up on Garth and Imra. for sure, Garth had a lot to offer to Imra, he definitely intrigued her. I think him figuring out her plan (to sacrifice herself so the rest of the Legion would not die), then him dying in her place, played a huge part; as well as Imra intending to die so Garth could be resurrected. For sure, not something every couple goes through!

always happy to point you to sources for some of the Reboot relationships. There was Lu/Chuck, XS/Magno, Reep/Ayla, Rokk/Jazmin (Kid Quantum II), Nura/Thom. there were also a few flirtations, but not what I would call real couples.

I love the idea of connecting Titan to Hesiod's Golden Age!

I agree with Ibby, this is a GREAT discussion and I can't wait to hear more. Great write up of the Ranzzes.

Your write up helps rinse away the horrible Jim Shooter character write ups that live in my head

It will be interesting to hear your Threeboot take, since they aren't in line with the classic lineup

I wonder how 'typical' both Garth and Imra are for their respective cultures.

Almost all of the other Winathians we've seen in the past have been inseperable from their twins, living together, marrying matching pairs of twins, having the same jobs, etc. When we meet Garth, he's on his own, and has seemingly zero contact with his twin. (yes, I know, meta reasons, but still, it's interesting to find in-story explanations for these sorts of things!) He (and Ayla, for that matter), seem *much* more capable of healthily functioning on their own than the average Winathian. (Mekt being the poster-child for not having a twin to 'ground' or 'balance' someone's personality causes at least some Winathians to spiral.) And yes, Ayla *did* eventually join her brother in the Legion and 'get the same job and live in the same place' (even if it was Legion HQ and not a big farmhouse), but they spent years apart, which seems very unusual for Winathians.

Imra seems to come from a very 'close' culture, who, being telepaths, seem likely to have very different ideas of intimacy and closeness. Not a lot of Titanians are seen off-planet, relatively speaking, and those that are sometimes are shown wearing almost same-same-y uniform outfits (like both Imra first showed up in, and Saturn Queen used to wear, which was the same basic outfit in different colors). I wonder if Imra, like Garth, is very atypical for her world and culture, and they find a certain comfortable acceptance in each other, when other Winathians might think Garth kind of 'abandoned his family' and other Titanians might think Imra has deprived her world of her talents and gone off to live on other planets, leaving her birth-culture behind.

And I could see either or both of their homeworlds containing some elements who aren't exactly thrilled that 'the most famous Titanian' is that hussy who skipped off-world the first chance she got and married an alien, not loving that the rest of the UP thinks 'Titanian' and the example that comes to mind is the one who left them behind... Some might think she's a great 'ambassador' for their people, others might squint at the perception she gives that Titanians are such alpha telepaths (showing off and 'flaunting' the most controversial and frightening element of Titanians, their telepathy, at which she is far, far better than the average Titanian, giving people who don't know any better cause to worry about 'mental privacy' and all that, when the average Titanian probably *doesn't* have Imra's prodigious talents or vast experience working with alien minds).

I agree with everyone that this is a great topic for discussion. Thanks Klar.

The twin background of Winath is an interesting one, particularly since it seems to be only (or at least predominantly) identical or monozygotic twins. This is when a single fertilised egg splits and develops in to two genetically identical individuals. The other sort of twins, fraternal or dizygotic, is when two separate eggs are fertilised simultaneously creating two siblings who just happen to be the same age. (Being a father of fraternal twins, boy and girl, means I notice things like this.) Every other case of Winathians we have seen, including Garth and Imra's offspring, appear to be identical twins. This means that Mekt is really not the only singleton in the Ranzz family. Garth and Ayla are also effectively singletons that happened to be born on the same day. I can see their growing up together being accepted as a kind of socially acceptable situation compared to Mekt but I am sure there would still be some teasing and ostracization for them as well, which well may have contributed to their life choices.

This is a so much better way of understanding the situation than the "Proty replacing Garth" idea that seemed more pushed in 5YL. I like it. Still Garth but with a bit extra.

That's a great way to describe their relationship.


This is a great idea too, that each of them are somewhat different to the mainstream of their home cultures and don't quite fit in, and that being a point of connection between them. Of course all of the legionnaires are probably outstanding examples of their homeworlds considering their willingness to sacrifice themselves for others, but the idea that Garth and Imra were to some extent outcasts adds to the background.

re the twins, the Reboot did show that fraternal twins were also quite common (see: Legends of the Legion 2, we see Spark at school, a few of their friend group were fraternal twins - though you are correct, identical twins were more common!) however, it was never implied or shown that identical twins were considered "more" of a twin than fraternal ones were

I do agree that a common connection between Imra and Garth could easily have been their relative "outsider-ness" on their homeworlds!

I really like Klar's use of the Antareas as augmenting Garth vs a complete personality replacement. It even works for the SW6 batch - the Antareans tempering his hot headedness making him more likeable and intriguing for Imra herself.

Imra herself is also an interesting study - communication, friendship and intimacy would all be very different for a telepath society. Does Imra find that being a Legionnaire is better because she can tune out non-titanians better, or does she like the "mental noise"? Or specific to Garth, does she enjoy being with a non-telepath (a telepath being more selectively guarded intimately) but the Soul of Antares aspect makes him more of an interesting puzzle for her that adds to her attraction?

#2: Cosmic Boy (Rokk Krinn) and Night Girl (Lydda Jath)

It has been remarked that Rokk and Lydda may have an unhealthy relationship, at least at the beginning.

Night Girl is initially presented as a sort of fan girl / stalker. In her first appearance, she reveals that she participated in her father’s experiments because of her desire to join the Legion.

“Now I can go to Earth and join The Legion of Super-Heroes, as I’ve always dreamed!”
-- Adventure Comics #306

In her second appearance, we learn that her ‘dream’ of joining the Legion was actually motivated by a long-standing long-distance crush on Cosmic Boy.

“I’ve been in love with Cosmic Boy for a long time! Even Cosmic Boy doesn’t know it, but I tried to join the Legion of Super-Heroes just to be near him!”
-- Adventure Comics #311

It seems rather problematic that she believes she has ‘been in love’ a long time with someone she met just five issues ago!

Cosmic Boy is an admirable character in the Legion mythos, honorable and courageous, a born leader, with the disposition of a true hero. In 5YL Mordru treats Rokk with respect, even after he has lost his powers. Glorith does the same. So there is much for Lydda to be attracted to. Rokk eventually reciprocates Lydda’s feelings, and they become a regular couple.

However, the dynamic of the relationship is curious. Certainly Rokk thinks of himself as heroic, and might appreciate fan-girlish praise-- although Lydda is never so obvious on-panel. Lydda sometimes joins Rokk in his adventures with his Legion. She becomes something of a de facto Reservist or Honorary member. But it does not go both ways: Rokk does not team up with Lydda and the Subs. Their attempt to create a new and improved Legion of Substitute Heroes with the Taines, Myg, and Comet Queen goes nowhere.

When Lydda teams up with Shadow Lass, an extremely effective teaming, Rokk breaks things off for awhile-- ostensibly because Lydda stood him up for a date in order to fight the bad guys. It raises some questions regarding their relationship dynamics. Was he really offended that she ‘stood him up’? Or was he jealous because she went adventuring without him? Or is he put off by strong women coming into their own? At any rate Lydda never teamed up with Tasmia again.

The couple seek adventure within and without the Legion as well, battling Dominators on Kathoon, and famously traveling back in time to the 2Oth century for an extended stay. (Encountering Rokk’s distant ancestor, ‘Krinnski’ and discovering the Byrne Superman.) It is almost as if, having little else in common than super-heroing, Rokk and Lydda like to spice up their relationship with some adrenaline-junkie adventuring.

By 5YL, they are married, Lydda becoming a ‘war bride’. Rokk has plenty of adventuring opportunities. He goes to war, loses his powers at Venado Bay, and goes a little nuts trying to get them back. He also attempts to revitalize and re-invent the Legion with old friends.

Around this time, the couple move around between Kathoon, Braal, and Talus, finally settling on Winath. Lydda seems generally unhappy during this period, specifically stating that she can't wait to get off Braal. But Lydda is happy at last on Lightning Ring Farms, and is occupied with the adventure that is little Pol Krinn II-- which, depending on how long it takes for him to develop regular sleep patterns, could be really quite challenging. (With an extensive chosen family on Winath, Lydda ought to find plenty of support, even with Rokk off-planet.)

I expect Rokk and Lydda’s relationship is enduring and stable, and will remain so for a long time. (In one timeline, Rokk becomes the Time Trapper, so maybe for a very, very long time) They may have ups and downs along the way, sometimes being closer physically and emotionally, sometimes taking one another a little too much for granted. There may be time apart, separations of light-years. There may be long evenings where they are together-but-separate, but with little conversation or personal interaction. But any time they need to spice up their marriage, all they need is a quick trip in a time bubble, or to find a new mystery to solve, or to find some old injustice to repair. It is literally adrenalin-fueled excitement that keeps the excitement in their marriage.

Interesting. I was in college, a hundred miles away from the nearest comic store, during the whole 5YL thing, and thanks to the new 'direct market' couldn't get comics at supermarkets or convenience stores like when I was in high school, so this later stuff with them being married and living on Winath is all new to me.

IMO, Lydda started out with some unhealthy / unrealistic goals. In the Adventure stories of the Subs a decade or so ago, Lydda came across as very competent, and kind of the heart (and common sense...) of the team, while Brek seemed more prone to sulking and grousing, than actually leading (the others, except for Stone Boy, seemed impulsive and enthusiastic, and not terribly practical, kind of forcing Lydda into a 'team mom' role, it felt like, particularly the bit with Time Sphere shenanigans, which, IIRC, Fire Lad in particular kept impulsively pushing buttons or Chlorophyll Kid bumping into things...). I didn't entirely love that look for Brek, but did find it neat the Lydda might have really come into her own as a Sub, and sort of found more to like about this life than 'Imma go to Earth and marry that cute magnoball champion / teen heart-throb-turned-Legionnaire from Braal!'

Maybe Rokk didn't return an interest in Lydda until she had blossomed on her own in the Subs, and was able to meet him on more equal ground than just 'fangirl who had my poster on her wall when I was a magnoball champ,' and more like 'other competent hero in her own right, with some experience at the 'herding cats' part of being on a hero team with enthusiastic but untrained young people...'

In the last retroboot, it seemed like Lydda was a full Legionnaire, recently 'on again' with Rokk, and did team regularly with Shadow Lass (to the point that Phantom Girl even got a little snarky about Shady going off and doing new things with new people), so whatever went on earlier seems to have been resolved.

In my fanon, Rokk leaves to teach / co-headmaster at Legion Academy with Chuck and Lu, but remains married to Lydda, who remains an active Legionnaire. They live in the same town, and have flight rings, so it's not even a long-distance relationship, they can easily share quarters together, but Lydda is more than strong and independent enough to not need 'her boyfriend' to be on the team, any longer, and is a Legionnaire because she wants to be a Legionnaire, not because of boy-drama. And Rokk prefers it that way, that they are together as equals, and she's not just hitching her wagon to his star, but following her own dreams, for her own reasons.

nice readings of their relationship, guys.

I will just add my memory of End of an Era, where Time Trapper-Rokk keeps Lydda from fading long enough, for adult Rokk to say one last goodbye. The implication was that Lydda would have faded much earlier, as she was almost the last Legionnaire without a doppelganger left when she did

oh yay, we're doing Cos and Lydda!

I like the idea of Lydda as the Subs den mother, I tend to see her as sort of a big sister myself. I also like the idea that initially her attraction to Cos was immature and a bit stalkerish but she matured out of that. It strikes me that when they broke up for a while in the retroboot it was probably actually really necessary character development for her and gave them more of an equal footing and strengthened their relationship once they got back together again. They definitely seemed very stable in the 5YL period!

From Rokk's perspective, I wonder if it was actually good for him to have a partner who wasn't on the same team for such a long time...there have been times he's had such a dominating presence and personality in the team that I feel like it would have led to friction if Lydda had joined the team when they were kids (like that story that Klar mentioned where he got his nose out of joint because she and Shady were teaming up on their own). Going back to 5YL again, I do get the impression that Rokk had much more appreciation for her there than in other depictions - I see it as him maybe realising how much she means to him after having lost so much (his mum and brother, Venado Bay...).

I also thought that 5YL portrayed their relationship as strong and positive. As for Lydda being happy to leave Braal, it didn't seem a particularly nice place to live under the Imskian occupation, and Rokk seemed even more keen to get Lydda out of that situation than Lydda was.

I also seem to remember a line form one of their shared adventures where Lydda commented on how she used to moon over Rokk and auditioned just to get close to him, and Rokk's response was something like "which was a very silly reason to begin what has been an exemplary career".

Their relationship was well-balanced in 5YL; Lydda had matured and provided the strength Rokk needed after his war injuries. Before that, she seemed to be the emotionally weaker one, one who would always defer to him. I remember one scene when they were mobbed by fans and she was almost in tears - the delicate little lady. Maybe that's what Rokk wanted at that point, but it wasn't going to cut in on post-war Braal. Lydda was quite capable with the Subs and her partnership with Shadow Lass was effective. She likely could have survived on her own on Braal, although she must have welcomed the support of the others on Winath; she seemed particularly keen to get off the planet and reconnect with the Legion for Rokk's sake. I do wonder what it was like for her to be the fourth person when the three founders got together; she and Imra didn't form much of a relationship.

The retroboot was a big step backward in the portrayal of their relationship. She survived the break-up (or the casting off) as Rokk went down the self-pity trip of giving up his life for the Legion. It's a personal thing, since I'm no great fan of Cosmic Boy, but she should have found somebody else once she went to the Academy; she was doing just fine on her own, but Garth and Imra had some fixation about getting them back together.

Garth and Imra have survived as a couple through various iterations of the Legion; not so with Rokk and Lydda. There's something solid and appealing about the Ranzz relationship that's lacking for the Krinns.

As someone who did self-destructive things to get over a breakup, I certainly wish Lydda had just moved on from Cos after he dumped her!

on the other hand, I don't recall her pining for him that much.

5YL Rokk/Lydda was the healthiest iteration for sure!

Great analysis!

I'm usually not fond of "super-couples" in fiction... the couple that absolutely HAS to be together... but I think Imra+Garth is the only essential Legion couple that has to be present in any incarnation, at least on some point. Basically tradition at this point.

Outside of them, while it's probably an unpopular opinion I really enjoyed how the Reboot didn't recreate ALL the original couples.
Tasmia+Mon was one of the best written couples of the original timeline (I look forward to your analysis, there's a lot of depth there)... but Shady lost many chances to shine because too often she was under Mon-El's shadow. Pun intended.


That's a neat idea, but more realistically it's the old "all people from the future are far smarter than us" trope.


I also got the impression she's not particularly close to her side of the family, as they BARELY get mentioned at all.


They're basically the Legion's mom and dad.

There's also the fact that while Jim Shooter is a good writer that has written a few masterpieces, thare are two things he's absolutely dreadful writing: one is comedy and the other is romance. Ever read his issues of Dazzler? Please don't.

That's a good point. Virtually all Legionnaires are to some extent unusual for their home planet, even those who come from planets where everyone has powers.
Also the fact that nearly everyone is a twin on Winath gets surprisingly little mention for the longest time. From a modern perspective it's weird to see that when Saturn Girl is pregnant she mentions how she forgot that twins are common on Winath, but it does make sense: as late as the early Volume 3 issues, it's been barely mentioned for decades.

I think the reasons are pretty simple: both Imra and Garth are in the team from the start, and Lydda isn't. It's MUCH easier to expand the characterization of a member of the regular cast than someone from the outside, especially in a book with a very large cast.
The solution would be to make Lydda a regular Legionnaire, but I'm not too fond of the idea... yeah she's a good character and an effective hero, but you would have to negate her main gimmick: if her weakness to sunlight never comes into play, she's just super-strong. Which is not a particularly rare power in the Legion.

Let's face it, Cosmic Boy wasn't a particularly deep character for the longest time. He was fine in the Shooter era, but until you get to volume 3 he was definitely the least interesting founder IMHO.
Luckily he got MUCH better.

Oh I won't - I actually don't think of him as that great a writer in the more recent age (since the 90s basically). I remember picking up a new book from him back in the 90s because of his rep as one of THE Legion creators (I was new to the Legion with the reboot). It was a great concept, badly written.

Then there's his threeboot run....

completely agree with this one, we have enough super-strength types. also not a fan of always having Tasmia and Lydda together all the time... cuts the options and the variety

I may be in the minority, but I really liked the idea of Lydda having full Kryptonian-class powers, as implied in the zany old men from Throon story. Still not really unique, but more useful.

Anyway, it would make a lot of sense if she operated as a solo "Avenger of the night" type character, or even just as planetary champion of Kathoon, but she really doesn't work great as a member of the Legion (or even the Subs, really).

I've said lots of times that I think Lydda and Tasmia have be like a Fire & Ice inseparable buddies kind of relationship simply because their powers work so well together (vs the Tasmia/Tinya relationship we ended up with because they were both defined by their boyfriends).