Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Oh Yeah, That Forum: The Titans Teen Titans #16

Got my copy as soon as the comic shop opened!! Woo-hoo... you're gonna love it!!!!

Sweet! I now have a reason to drop by the comic shop today!!!

Will there be a "Calling the Roll" for this issue of the Titans?
I eagerly await Deanlegion's "Legion/Titans Hair" thread!

OMG, what am I going to do with almost 3 months without any Legion at all?
>gasp<
>gasp<
-deep breath-
think calm thoughts
think calm thoughts
....aaarrrggggggg....

Won't get my copy until tomorrow. C'mon, make with the spoilers!!

Indeed. I don't know if I'll be making it by the shop today (I forgot it was out today so I didn't go on my lunch break.)

lol

Ok, I'm about to run out and get it..

I just can't stand it anymore! Is Garth in it as Crystal Element Guy? Will time continue to "Blink"? Is there a possibility that another Superboy will die? Jeckie or Sneckie? The Time Trapper or Brother Blood again? Does a new future mean a different past? New past, different future, whatever. I don't know!
It's killing me.

Preview! Isn't there supposed to be a preview of the new LSH?

If you're at the store and are a Legion completist, you should probably pick up the new "Previews" catalog too cause it has the Kitson Legion of Super Heroes #1 cover as one of its own covers.

I beleive that's in next week's Titans/Legion Special

Yep. The preview is next week.


**
S

P

O

I

L

E

R


w

A

R

N

I

N

G

**


The Persuader looks great on the cover. What the heck is he a Daxamite? That man is t-t-t-tough!

Bart's eyes are positively glowing as he slips a Legion flight ring on his hand. Very nice panel.

I finally get my wish. Robin meets the Legion! (and it's NOT an Elseworlds)I wanted it to be Dick but I'll settle for Tim.

What does the blurb on the last page mean?
Next Month: TITANS TOMORROW begins!

I don't dare say too much at once. I'm sure we'll be adding a lot more to this tonight...and I really don't want to be the one to break the news about Legion World.

Robin met the Legion in LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES Vol.4 #100.

And, to Legion World.

And there's discussion going on in this thread as well.

I forgot. It was that scene just at the end of the Legionnaires stranded in the 20th century story arc wasn't it?

Cool.

*********************************Titan spoilers!**********************************
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*

I'm not really up on today's Titans, has that thing between Superboy and Wonder Girl been building for a while? It was a cute moment when they discovered they didn't have to talk shop...but then what to talk about?

Kon disappeares and reappeares in just a second or two with longer hair (a spit curl?) and a new outfit.
Ok, time travel gives me headaches too.

Raven looks damned cool. The Karate Kid - Robin bit was cute. I'll bet everybody thinks Robin is Dick Grayson though.

-heh heh- Chameleon and Beast Boy. "Hey, stop that!"

What could Dreamer's vision mean? "They're not going home..."?

After Universe Ablaze I wasn't sure I'd enjoy this but now I'm all hyped up for next week!

I'm assuming she refers to the fact that the Titans will get back ten years later in the next issue #17 and that the Legion as we know it will be gone after this story.

Is that the plan for the Titans? A 10 year gap? Grife.

Probably not. They get a glimpse of the future and then return to make sure it never happens type deal.

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
.
.
.
.
.
.

They will be getting a new Aquagirl and Speedy soon too. Check out AQUAMAN and GREEN ARROW*.

* No I don't work for DC, but I should.

Egads! Will someone spoil me silly about the details of what happens to Legion World?

*sigh*

Well, I should at least try to get that original page to add to my others of Legion World. That way I'll have its birth (reveal) to its death.

I just wonder what the fate of those onboard is? Chuck (and maybe Gear) were there at the time.

Yeah...like Gary is saying, that seems really odd to me to blow LW up with all of the tech and more importantly people inside. Unless they're going for a huge sense of loss here.

...no offense to Mr. McKone, but that is one scary-looking Kid Quantum II in the page above.

Also of note, "A dozen Legionnaires are already hurt, maybe worse." The Cadets and Chuck are confirmed to be on Legion World. "Mon-El" [their mistake?] and XS are on Earth in battle.

The others who were not depicted in this issue -

Live Wire, Invisible Kid ([HOPE]maybe he's invisible?[/HOPE]), Violet, Kinetix, Gates, Sensor, Ferro, Gear, and Timber Wolf.

That has to be a reference to Legion #38 where we saw several Legionnaires down.

Just so the others know though, we've got Star Boy, Ultra Boy, Superboy, Starfire, Cyborg and Brainiac5 all are pushing for all they're worth to keep Legion World from breaking up. Maybe LW will survive? (the prospects don't look good though)

I should have figured it would be more of a 'guest starring' or 'cameo' bit for the Legion in the TT issue instead of a full-on crossover. It's kind of upsetting to know so many people can get left in the dust and yet they'll go and do something major like blow LW and possibly all of the major players on it up.

I'm a little pissed of doing big stuff like this, just because it feels like a, "We're not going to see this reality ever again anyway, so let's mess everything up for shock value"-type thing. I wouldn't be shocked to have a few Legionnaires killed along the way (a la Universe Ablaze) and then be left for dead as we lose this reality. I'm actually upset about the Reimagining for the first time now, just at how rushed and carefree such big events to the Legion are becoming.

I should probably take on the mindset that "The reboot Legion ended at Legion #33 (or #38 for me)" and just enjoy the tale for what it's worth.

I hate to even think this let alone say it but maybe with the reboot coming they are just killing off a lot of Legionnaires (not to forget at least R.J. and various SP members and those of Shikari's race manning the Threshholds) for the shock value.

Hopefully, some of the Legionnaires who are currently unaccounted for (including some of the injured) are on Earth with Mon and XS. A ray of hope: all of them, including Gear, are on next issue's cover. The worst thing Waid and Johns could do is piss fans off by turning this into a bloodfest. It's supposed to be fun, dammit.

If this DOES become a bloodbath, I will be in the lead of the pack carrying torches to the doorsteps of all involved.

A bloodbath is COMPLETELY unnecessary.

I think I'm going to sit this issue out. I'll wait for reviews of the special before I decide whether to pick it up.

Fun? Ah yes - the employment of time in a profitless and non-practical way.

Remember Waid wanted to 5YG this story, just for the hell of it, and was stopped only because of what it'd have done to Kon.

Fun? This is a clear-the-decks, no-one to be left alive so we can flush it all away story. No room for fun.

hOORAY! wE AM GOT TWO THREADS GOING ON AT SAME TIME FOR SAME TOPIC!! tHAT AM GREAT IDEA!!

Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
I think I'm going to sit this issue out. I'll wait for reviews of the special before I decide whether to pick it up.

I'm fairly well convinced that the writers of Teen Titans haven't read too many Legion books. The noted flight rings with built in transuits comes to mind. The Persuader's Axe getting the new power to cut through alternate realities... and finally, (and I know it's the Titan's book, but) if The Legion can't handle the problem, I'm not sure that 6 or so Titans are going to stem the tide of the Fatal 500.

Not a good starting point at all from The Legion's standpoint, maybe The Titan's are used to this sort of thing? I keep asking myself why do the crossover? I realize that The Titans are big right now, but what in this story is going to make Titan fans connect with The Legion and want to buy the new series in December? I don't see that happening unless Johns drastically improves his writing of The Legion characters. Wax off, Wax on... really now.

I certainly hope so, since that'll leave Berta and Drura on earth at the time. Nothing could turn me against getting back into the Legion like killing off either character immediately after re-introducing them (especially considering the behind-the-scenes considerations with Berta).

That'd turn me off from (new adventures) Legion like artbitrarily killing off Lilith would turn me from the Titans... oh, yeah.

Hmm. I didn't plan on picking this up this week, and now I'm pretty certain i won't. If Johns has just decided to screw up the reboot version of the Legion (which is the only one I really know) then i'm going to be pretty annoyed. *Especially* if he's only doing it because he knows he can since it's not going to be coming back.

See, I really enjoy his writing on Flash and JSA (although Flash has been slipping a bit of late) but I hated the firs ten issues of Teen Titans so have no desire to read any more fo it, even more so if it's just going to be a chance to kill off half the Legion and have six not verly-powerful Titans save the day (much as I love Changeling he's not nearly on a par with Cham in terms of ability and the others are all pretty wet). I think I might have to pass on the mini and just wait for the re-imagining and see if that's any good.

To address your points in order:

1. Why assume that Geoff Johns made these decisions on his own? You don't think he would ask someone if the flight rings activated transuits? Or what the Persuader's Ax can and can't do? And if he did decide on these matters on his, you're saying that Eddie Berganza is such a sloppy editor that he'd just let them stay in the issue without checking with Steven Wacker or Mark Waid first? Can someone please reference an issue that shows conclusively this IS an error? Knowing Johns, I can guarantee you that he asked someone about flight rings and the Persuader's atomic ax. A Teen Titans issue that leads into the Titans/Legion Special that leads into the Legion re-boot isn't going to be directed by Johns alone. Although he's not listed in the credits, Mark Waid has an influence in TT #16.

2. Having the Persuader's ax cut through "parallel realities" does seem contrived, but who knows? Like someone else pointed out in the other thread, that atomic ax has been used to break so many physical laws, why can't it be used to "cut into parallel realities"? Or, I'll put it this way, if you're complaining that the ax can do this, you should also be complaining that the ax can do all the other crazy things the past writers and editors have made it do.

3. Wildfire DOES point out that the addition of 7 Teen Titans isn't going to help them considerably.

Don't misinterpret my "tone," but I'm really stumped by these arrows being shot at Johns. You're all really demonstrating very little familiarity with how a comic book gets produced. Do you all seriously believe that Eddie Berganza, Steven Wacker and the other Powers-that-be at DC who have backed Waid's Legion re-boot would allow Johns to "screw up the reboot version of the Legion"? Do you all seriously believe that the script to Teen Titans #16 wasn't influenced by (or at least shown to) Waid and Wacker? If you do, I don't know... I really don't think you understand how comic book editors and writers interact or how comic book editors interact with each other.

Forgive me if my comments seem harsh or overly critical because that's not my intention.

Regarding Persuader's ax, I took it that all the Fatal Five members got amped up pretty significantly. Not just number wise, but power wise. Take the Legion World destruction, for instance. I know there's probably 100 Manos running around, but I doubt 100 of 'em as previously powered could have destroyed LW like that. And even if they did, then there wouldn't be any Manos for Part 2.

Likewise, Persuader's time-slicing abilities are another enhancement.

Ummm... ONE Mano destroyed a planet in his first postboot appearance (and survived, much to his own chargin)...

Buck stops with the guy who commits it to paper (or to disk. You get the picture).

So what does the Editor do? Get everyone coffee?

Hold on a second. Hold on a second.

You're telling me... that if Geoff Johns called up his Editor and asked, "Hey Eddie, I'm not too sure about Persuader's ax. Can it cut through parallel realities?"

And then Eddie says, "Let me ask Steven Wacker, Geoff. Hold on a second."

And then Eddie asks Steven, "Hey Steven, can Persuader's ax cut through parallel realities?"

And then Steven says, "Hold on, Eddie, I had to get Mark Waid some coffee. What was the question? Oh, yeah, sure, it can cut through anything! Even Stan Lee's hairpiece!"

And then Eddie says, "Thanks Steve!"

And then Eddie says to Geoff, "I just got off the phone with Steven. The ax can definitely cut through parallel realities."

And then when Geoff puts in the script that Persuader's ax can cut through parallel realities when it really can't...

IT'S THE WRITER'S FAULT BECAUSE "THE BUCK STOPS WITH HIM"?

Is that really your argument?

That was extremely thrilling! I really liked the coffe part, it made me thirsty and that's a sign of good writing.
__________________

Hey come on, upgrades like that happen all the time in comic books. The transuits appearing at all in the first place were the subject of a lot of speculation. Jet packs turned into flight belts without a lot of noise but then the flight ring replaced the belt.
-good god, I don't remember when the flight ring showed up for the first time-

Maybe Lyle's been busy in the lab making new stuff? Maybe the flight ring has a compartment like Barry Allen's Flash ring? maybe IK invented a low power force field that works like a transuit but didn't think up a new name for it? ..or hell, maybe it's a "retcon", they always worked that way and we didn't know it.

You have a cool definition of good writing: it makes the reader thirsty.


I'm pretty sure we have seen 1st appearance of flight rings in both the 1960s Adventure Comics and the post-boot Legion of Super-Heroes issues. You ask Good questions and make legitimate remarks. I do want to know if there's been an LSH or Legionnaires issue since the 1994 re-boot that shows Legionnaires donning transuits. But like you wrote, even if we *can* find one, it's not unreasonable to imagine Lyle has re-designed the rings to incorporate transuits.

People, some of you are treating this flight ring/transuit issue like it's a MONUMENTAL violation of Legion continuity. It's not like we saw Tinya paired off with Val.

And it's certainly not like Wildfire's still wearing the wrong costume. Oh, wait...

Bingo.
Everybody does it somewhere along the line. In the beginning Legionnaires were just there, origins came much later. Lex Luthor contacted a gang of criminals in the future to break him out of jail? Wtf? The Legion jackets and striped slacks was ok for a few issues but you'll notice that people started showing up in costume and no explanation was made for it...or not, whichever they felt like. No big deal. Vi showed up with a blue leg and a scar and it was quite a while before we found out what happened...and let's just pretend Bounty never existed or that she was some slimebucket taking advantage of a physical resemblance to confuse the Legionnaires. For many many years we got references to some tragedy that happened early in the Legion's history that resulted in the rule banning artificial super powers. Did we ever find out what the powers of the Khundish Legionnaires were? Or why Brainiac 5 isn't in a prison for the criminally insane or ...ad infinitum. Unfortunately we always have unanswered questions.
I know that sooner or later somebody will drop it in a flashback story or something and it'll become a permenant part of Legion lore. One good thing about being one of those Fortysomething fans is that I can be patient, eventually someone I really like will write the book for a few years...and I do like Mark Waid so I expect good things out of the new book.

As far as transuits go, in the Levitz era they were designed so that they would automatically activate whenever a Legionnaire was in space. For example, when Jacques accidentally teleported a Khund assassin into space (v3 #10, I believe), his transuit activated automatically, while the Khund died. I don't recall any specific connection to flight rings.

In the postboot, the Legionnaires have always been depicted putting the transuits on before entering an environment in which they might need them. For example, they don them during the first Tangleweb mission (v4 #63), as I recall, and are shown pulling them out of their pouches and pulling them on.

Good point EDE. I remember that. The bit did surprise me while reading the issue but I kind of decided that I'd just accept it and go along with it in TT#16. "Suspension of disbelief" and all that.

So we're down to just a couple of days before the crossover book comes out. Is it just one issue?

Any new predictions now that we've had the first part of the story?

I guess that if we're going to get a hundred versions of the 5 then maybe we'll get a hundred versions of the Legion. Considering that we've actually seen an evil Legion in all that alternate reality stuff I'm wondering if we'll see a heroic Fatal Five somewhere in the mix.
That would be different.

It would bee fun to see the legions reaction to a "heroic" fatal five.

I'm blanking at the moment but wasn't there a story a long time back which showed the FF effectively hiding out on a planet and trying to help the technologically backward people. They were thwarted by the arrival of the legion and decided that if the law was not going to leave them alone they would go back to their old ways.

Yeah, that was during Joe Staton's run, the only time I've ever dropped the Legion from my regular reading list. I eventually bought it out of the "quarter box" and I've flipped through it but I don't think I've ever actually read it.

I suspect that the 'axe cutting through time and space' thing may be inspired by Philip Pullman's 'the Subtle Knife' in which the eponymous blade has the power to cut through the ether to make a gateway between two parallell earths.

If I remember rightly. It's been a while. Anyway, that's the first thing I thought of when I read of this particular plot device. So it isn't completely unprecedented in fiction.

From what I have read, this does sound a bit disappointing so far. I'll reserve judgement until I've read it though, I guess.

**cry they're killing my legion! My precious legion!!! cry***etc.

1. As I think back about the issue, I'm not even sure that transuits were mentioned. I think it's presented that the Flight Rings will protect them in space, and that us being knowledgeable Legion fans, we assumed their was some connection between the rings and unmentioned transuits. If I'm remembering this correctly then it's a huge, unexplained upgrade for the flight rings. Whether Johns or editors or the readers are responsible for this or not, it still lends itself to my argument that the writers are not too familiar with how the Legion works.

2. The axe cutting through alternate realities is another huge, unexplained upgrade. Which lends itself to many questions... Is there an Atomic Axe for each reality? Does each axe cut through the fabric of realities? How does each Persuader control which fabric of reality he cuts? If the axe cuts through realities does that mean it exists in each reality and there's really only one? If this is the case does that mean each Persuader is spatially in the same place in each reality, so as to be holding onto the axe? How do people and objects in one dimension keep from being cut by all the atomic axes of other dimensions?

These are questions that the previous writers have not had to deal with when they broke the physical laws with their axes. But somehow they seem relevant here. I also remember the axe bouncing off of Brainiac 5's force field early in the reboot, it still knocked him out, but it has been shown that the Axe can not cut everything.

3. I knew I liked Wildfire for a reason.

The bottom line is the writing shows a little bit of unfamiliarity with The Legion. I think both the editors and writers have a hand in that. Given that the story isn't complete yet, I'm willing to wait and see if they explain some of these things. I just hope they don't treat the Legion as second tier thingies until December rolls around.

edit for grammar

Okay, I see your points. I would disagree with your usage of the word "unfamiliarity."

I am willing to bet money that a pow-wow session between Johns, Waid, Berganza and Wacker produced both Teen Titans #16 and Teen Titans/Legion Special #1 (again, because TT #16 leads into the Special #1 which leads into the Re-boot #1, Waid and Wacker need not only to know what is going on in TT #16 but to have a hand in it as well). Wacker and Waid are definitely familiar with the Legion.

Flight rings can't activate transuits (or naturally protect their wearers from the vacuum of space)? Okay.

It's silly to have the Persuader's ax cut through parallel dimensions? Okay.

In that case, I would say the creators "cut corners" in order to set up both the meeting between the Titans and the Legion and the imposing threat of Fatal Five Hundred as quickly as they could.

They needed to bring the conflict from point A (Teen Titans in the 21th century) to point D (the Fatal Five Hundred rampage on 31st century Earth), and the only QUICK way they felt they could do that is via Point B (flight rings activating transuits) and Point C (Persuader's Ax cutting through parallel temporal realities).

Contrived and silly? Sure, it can be looked at that way.

As I see it, the fuss about the flight rings is really not worth arguing about (innovations do NOT have to occur on-panel), and the Persuader's Ax is one of those super-hero comic book "science-fantasy" elements that you either swallow and continue reading or laugh hysterically at and drop the book.

It's the same when in the mid-1980s in a Paul Levitz/Greg Laroque LSH, Vol. 3 issue Mon-el brought a white dwarf star into Legion headquarters to act as a power supply for one of Brainy's contraptions.

I'm willing to take a leap of faith here. I'm trying not to be a stickler on the corner cutting and the off panel innovating. I know Waid and Wacker are familiar with The Legion, the thing that really bothers me about this whole thing is this:

The minister of paranoia seems pretty anxious to overlook these minor infractions. It just makes me think that something a little more sinister is going on here than what we've been led to believe.

Seriously though, I think that the creators need to be criticized and praised accordingly. I see that happening here.

Oops, sorry. Didn't mean to post.

Move along, nothing to see here.

Liar. Trying to pad for yer thousandth post, weren't ya, Mr 999

It was an honest error. I went to edit my previous post and accidentally hit the reply with quote button and add new post before I realized what happened.

Let me just add that I'm not sorry I posted it, and specifically didn't delete because I didn't know if that would take my count back down or not.

So then I get to congratulate you on your REAL 1000th post.
Cool.

I agree totally. In this case, I think the creative people behind this issue (whoever they may be) did a diservice to both of the teams with this contrived and hurried set up. With the price of comics being as high as they are now, I expect a lot more.

This is all my opinion of course. But I'd like to state it. Thanks.

I'm not performing my ministerial duties, huh? Well, since SoM/Reboot won't be leader for much longer, I thought I'd slack off on the job. What's he going to do? Fire me! Heh, heh, heh. Lame duck Leader.

If we can lump all those responsible for producing the comic book as "the creators" and blame them for a comic book we don't like, I don't have a problem with that. I just don't like it when one particular professional (in this case, Geoff Johns) gets singled out and blamed for something we really don't know originated with him.

(I actually just wrote an article for SBC.com on this very topic that should be posted soon.)

Oh, I've got a much, much better idea...

Uh oh..., I don't like the sound of that. I thought my paranoia days would end with SoM/Reboot's term.

Excuse me while I hide in the closet and peek out for signs of danger.