Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Oh Yeah, That Forum: The Titans GRADUATION DAY: Why?

I mean, doesn't DC realize yet that it alienates fans when it does these overblown crossover-killsprees?

WHY was GRAD DAY necessary?

Wouldn't a nice, quiet crossover between David's YJ and Peyer's Titans have worked better? Featuring the dissolution of both teams and the formation of the new teams WITHOUT the silly carnage and completely ludicrous way Lilith was killed (since when does a telepathic person not recognize a ROBOT brain...?)?

If it had panned out this way, I bet more people would be open to reading the current TT series and especially OUTSIDERS.


FOR THE RECORD:

I enjoy both series, but have had to banish GRAD DAY from my mind to do so.

Graduation Day is the reason that I haven't even bothered to read either book at the moment. I still need time for the sting to heal.

I have a feeling it won't be until one or both of the series are cancelled that I'll give 'em a read. Right now they're bookcase and collection filler.

According to Winick, Graduation Day was mostly motivated by the editor, Eddie Berganza. Basically He, Winick and Johns - if I remember the story correctly - and maybe some others had a long meeting where they hammered out the direction of the break-up of the Titans and Young Justice and the formations of the new groups. Berganza seems to have been the one who believed that if Donna was around the old Titans would never break up [and YJ probably wouldn't either]. Thus Graduation Day, which Winnick volunteered to write, as I understand it, so no other writer would have to kill off Donna.

I've never heard a good explaination of why Lilith was put on the chopping block, or why out of two groups getting together and having a fatality it was the two oldest, most experienced female characters who got killed.

I'm not surprised the idea came from an editor.

I'm not happy with what they did to Donna, but they did set her up for a possible return someday if demand is high enough. Lilith's probably just gone.

I agree with Lash on the fact I think more people would be reading Outsiders and Titans had it not been for Grad Day. Why oh Why could Donna not been moved over to JSA she would fit the legacy connection and would have given them a Wonder Woman presence! I also think Lilith would have been a great Outsider! DC royally screwed up here with the deaths of these 2!!!!!

[Sorry, the message that was here was meant for the MMB instead... ]

I have enjoyed Titans more than I thought I would, although I find the character mix ridiculous.

Outsiders is ok I guess. I think Winnick tries to hard to be cutting edge. His characters don't seem as "real" to me.

i'd agree with most of the comments so far .... i too was very upset when Donna Troy was "killed off" !!!

but without sounding horrible .... i felt that i'd lost her years ago !!!

i really wish John Byrne hadn't given her a new origin with that DARK ANGEL storyline !!!

the TRIOA and the TITANS of MYTH origin that Wolfman/Perez created after her original origin was made void after "Crisis" was such a great was to move forward ..... i thought the mirror image of Diana thing was really bad, and then when we had her at the start of the new TITANS title with no personality !!! this when i felt she lost her character for me .....

she'd had her history destroyed to much for me by then !!! they have given anyone wanting to bring her back a hard task IMO .....

Matthew.

btw .... i am enjoying the "TEEN TITANS" at the moment !!! but, i'm not sure how much longer i'll stick with "OUTSIDERS" !!!???

Matthew.

The only problem with that is that the JSA is overstuffed as it is right now.

Better than being dead, though....

They were wrong in the '50s. It's better to be read than dead.

Graduation Day was a ridiculous story. There were dozens of better ways to do this. And for that matter, WHY did Donna have to die in order to bring Young Justice into the team? I mean, why not come up with some other reason to move Dick and Roy to the Outsiders, and just have Donna remain to train new heroes? She's certainly better qualified than Cyborg and Starfire (not to mention far more popular).

And I'm sorry, but Lilith was sacrificed because no one else was currently using her, and the extra carnage would make the whole story seem more "tragic". But the way that they killed her was an insult, both to the character AND her fans.

And for the record, I am enjoying Titans (although I think Johns has brought the maturity level of ALL the characters down quite a bit... Bart for instance had done a lot of growing up in his own title, but you wouldn't know it to read Titans). I am on the verge of dropping the Outsiders, however. The new characters aren't grabbing me, and the stories aren't really wowing me, either.

Tom Peyer was using Lilith in The Titans just prior to graduation day [for almost a year]. I almost wonder if that raised TPTB consiousness of her enough to want her used as cannon fodder in Graduation Day.

The shame of THAT would be that Lilith was brought on by Kitson & Faerber in TITANS in response to fans clamoring for her.

She was one of the few things TITANS fans weren't bitching about on those latter TITANS issues...

GRADUATION DAY has definitely left some bitter dregs that make fully enjoying either TEEN TITANS or THE OUTSIDERS quite difficult.

TITANS... I'm liking more than OUTSIDERS and I'm very intrigued by the whole Deathstroke/Jericho thing. I'm hoping there's somehow to salvage the latter--if he's really there at all.

Too bad Lilith ain't around. Where's a good team psychic when you need one? Oh, yeah- she was offed in the most casual, don't-give-a-crap-about-the-character way I've seen since Marvel killed Darkstar.

A shame- I'd liked Winick for the most part until that ugly scene. In OUTSIDERS, he's written some very good moments. The torture scene with the Joker and Lex Luthor was priceless, I thought. Didn't like the dismissal of a couple of longtime villains as joke fodder-- DC has *plenty* more fodder-worthy bad guys haunting its halls than the two ridiculed.

I like Thunder of the new girls. Grace I could take or leave-- she's no Donna, which is the point, I suppose. Sigh. I do like Grace's 'relationship' with Arsenal, however. An improvement on the tepid Troia/ex-Speedy fling.

Indigo-- I despise. A waste of a great name. Maybe if she has some hand in bringing back Donna (which I've read hint after hint about... thankfully), then I could tolerate her. Otherwise, I just see the instrument of two more interesting female characters' deaths.

Somehow, I keep thinking of Brainy's robotic Supergirl whenever Indigo appears... and how her far-future status is sure to sprock up the Legion sooner or later.

TN

So, with Donna's-- and possibly Lilith's as well-- return, how is everyone feeling...?

Too soon. I'll wait and see.

Donna's return is no surprise. I'm not impressed with it so far but maybe it'll grab me by the end.

The Lilith thing I wasn't expecting, and I'm not getting my hopes up for it.

Is the Lilith thing something to do with her origin? Is she the daughter of the mad Titan Thia or not?